“I need to check the power to see if he’s got talent”: Criminal mastermind behind G’s bike theft was 15; Good Samaritan driver lends cyclist spare light; Peloton got worse; Aussie cycle fines; Xan der Poel; Riding through floods + more on the live blog
SUMMARY
Xan der Poel wins Scottish National Cyclocross Championships
Remember that kid from the Tour of Britain? The one who attacked the breakaway on the pavement and got a bottle from Pascal Eenkhoorn for his efforts. If you hadn’t already guessed from that cameo Xander Graham is a very talented young bike rider. A point proven by the fact he won the junior Scottish National Cyclocross Championships over the weekend.
> Team Jumbo-Visma’s youngest recruit steals the show in Scotland
Even better, Xander’s Instagram handle is Xan_der_Poel. Come on, that’s very good…
Nike wants to fly Tom Pidcock to Oregon to test 5km abilities
The running news is never-ending at the minute…
Tom Pidcock has done an interview with Rouleur magazine, in which he said he would be up for attempting a 5km effort on the track, hopefully without the dodgy GPS data and scepticism of the running community.
“Yeah, I will do it at some point,” Pidcock said. “Nike wants me to go and do it in Oregon at their facility, so after cyclo-cross worlds [Jan 29-30 in Arkansas], I’m gonna go there and do it. But we’ll see. I want to run one on the flat first to get another time. I don’t want to get over 15 minutes. It’s pointless, innit? The idea was to run sub-15 minute 5km at the end of ’cross season.”
Pidcock claimed to have clocked a 13:25 5km last winter, only to be torn to shreds by the legion of runners ready to point out he definitely didn’t land such an impressive time…
Yesterday, we shared the news of Tom Dumoulin’s mightily impressive 10km time at an event in his hometown of Maastricht. The Jumbo-Visma rider covered the distance in 32:38…very speedy. Even more impressive than Adam Yates’ sub-three hour effort at the Barcelona Marathon.
MAAP makes us all jealous with its latest Aussie summer release
It’s still sunny weather over where cycling apparel brand MAAP is based and so its shorts news, not tights, incoming from the Australian brand.
MAAP’s new Pro Bib Shorts 2.0 are its most technologically advanced bib short to date. “We’ve elevated the technical functions in these bib shorts with supportive compression that will aid with blood flow and recovery — two very important benefits for cyclists, no matter which level of performance you’re at,” says MAAP.
You’ve got a unique lightweight 3D aero structured finish and an ergonomically engineered thermo moulded chamois with an antimicrobial microfibre top liner and laser cut perforations for breathability.
Four-way stretch compression fabric is also used to enhance blood flow and recovery during efforts, while the raw cut knitted fabric is designed to minimise pressure as well as maximise comfort, and all critical seams have also been flatlock stitched to prevent abrasion.
Find out more about the Pro Bib 2.0 and see MAAP’s latest arrivals at maap.cc…
Your regular dose of commuting goodness
Good evening London
The evening commute home 🚲 a healthy, green, sustainable way to get back from the office. pic.twitter.com/8OgwODPJrl
— London Cycles (@London_Cycles) November 15, 2021
$116 fine for NSW cyclists breaking Aussie road rules...although in fairness I'm not sure why you'd want to do this...
Aussie cycling fines are a constant source of bewilderment for those of us on the other side of the world. In February, it was announced Melbourne cyclists would face a A$1652 (£900) fine for breaking the 10kph speed limit on the Southbank Promenade.
Then there was the Queensland cyclist fined A$1,000 (£548) for talking on her phone while riding.
Today’s dose is a little less absurd, but still very costly. Why you’d want to undertake a car indicating left, I’m not sure, but any cyclist who does that in NSW faces a $116 fine, while in Victoria it’s $182…
Before he dropped the entire field (bar one)
— Cycling out of context (@OutOfCycling) November 16, 2021
You’ve probably heard Tom Dumoulin ran a very quick 10km on Sunday. If not, where have you been?
100% launch Eastcraft and Westcraft sunglasses
Sunnies brand 100% have just launched two new designs, the Eastcraft and the Westcraft, each using a “5.5-base cylindrical lens for increased peripheral view and protection.”
The angular Eastcraft gives you the option to use a single ‘shield’ lens or a dual lens setup and the design incorporates a locking hinge mechanism which sits at the bridge of your nose for easier lens removal.
You can also install side shields if you want more protection from sideways rain. The Westcraft offers the same lens colours, locking hinge and removable side shields as the sunnies above. Here, though, you have a rounded design which gives us all sorts of 70’s aviator vibes.
Both models start at £169.99 and are avilable now. Seeing as we’re based in the West Country, I guess it’s the Westcraft for us.
roadtrip.cc? The road.cc forum temporarily goes all Tripadvisor
We’re not sure if David9694 came to the right place when posting on the road.cc bike forum about his recent stay in a holiday cottage, and whether it’s ever ok to sample the host’s liquor collection.
Simon E suggested that this particular thread should be hosted elsewhere, but as it’s led to a healthy discussion we’ll leave it be for now! If you want to take a break from talking about cycling you can join in here.
Someone check on Jeremy
Touched a nerve 🚲 – @theJeremyVine pic.twitter.com/6ukV1AXmCY
— Emma Bentley (@EmmaLBentley) November 16, 2021
Prepare yourselves for the incoming 360-degree cinematic masterpiece with live ‘Gary Neville Monday Night Football-style’ analysis of how a taxi driver closed passed him on the way to work. We’re not complaining though, keep them coming, Jeremy…
For a close pass of a different kind…check out our Near Miss of the Day (Tour de France winner edition)…
"I need to check the power to see if he's got talent": Criminal mastermind behind G's bike theft was 15
Geraint Thomas having his bike stolen while stopping for a coffee was Sunday’s big story. How did it happen? Who was the culprit? How did they catch them? Well, G’s spilled the beans on his Geraint Thomas Cycling Club podcast.
Firstly, the headline: the thief was a 15-year-old kid who looked all too delighted to have been arrested…
“[The police told me] he was 15,” G explained. “The picture of him looked like he had just been to Disneyland…massive cheesy grin. I was like ‘did he take that here?’ You can’t go around stealing bikes but I kind of wanted to help him because he can’t be in a good place.”
The bike, a Pinarello Dogma F, painted as a Pinarello Dogma F12, with mismatched wheels and a Thomas nametag wasn’t even top of the 2018 Tour de France winner’s priority list.
“They gave me my Garmin. That was the thing I was most worried about because I haven’t downloaded my training this week. I’m going to have to download it and see if he’s got any talent. See what speed and power he’s putting out. He was lucky I charged my gears actually, at least it was in good working order for him.”
So how did it all unfold? Well, it all began at a cafe in Menton when G and EF Education-Nippo pro Michael Valgren stopped for lunch. I wonder if Cannondale will kick up a fuss about the thief picking the Pinarello?
“We left our bikes outside and were sat at the table closest to the door. I could just about see the front of my wheel. Part of me was thinking ‘should I move it?’.
The owner of the cafe turned around and asked us ‘two bikes? Ah but there’s only one here’ we laughed and were like ‘okay, thanks mate’.
“He said, ‘no no no no there’s only one bike’ we still thought he was joking but went outside…’Ah bollocks, my bike’s gone!’”
Thomas had been home for 15 minutes when the police called saying they’d found it. “I was like ‘bloody hell that was quick!’” G continued. “They saw a guy riding the bike and thought it didn’t look right, he wasn’t dressed like a professional athlete. They stopped him, a couple of them were cyclists I think, saw my name on it, arrested him and took the bike.”
Now we wait for those all-important power numbers…
16 November 2021, 08:54
16 November 2021, 08:54
16 November 2021, 08:54
16 November 2021, 08:54
16 November 2021, 08:54
16 November 2021, 08:54
Help us to bring you the best cycling content
If you’ve enjoyed this article, then please consider subscribing to road.cc from as little as £2.49. Our mission is to bring you all the news that’s relevant to you as a cyclist, independent reviews, impartial buying advice and more. Your subscription will help us to do more.
69 Comments
Read more...
Read more...
Read more...
Latest Comments
Peripheral to your point, but parking facing oncoming traffic is advised against at all times, but only an offence at night, I think?
@mac f 1896 If you look closely at the video you will see that the cyclist remains entirely in his own lane on his side of the white lines as he passes the oncoming vehicle, which also stays entirely within its lane. There is therefore no need for either road user to give way to the other and as they are both travelling at low speeds there is no danger to themselves or to any other road users. I would love to see a transcript of the magistrates' court proceedings as prima facie there is no justification in law for the guilty finding or for the penalty imposed.
@perce pedantry but I think Séamus Ennis would be scunnered with that ... had he not been Irish... (Uilleann pipes are bagpipes of course, though personally I'd much rather those - or small pipes - than the GHB)
@quiff I think you are probably right here - but - is that _really_ being inconsiderate to the oncoming driver? Looking again at the video, the oncoming driver appears to be over the centre line when approaching the parked vehicle and just seems to be straightening the bend a little, so you would expect them to be moving towards the kerb anyway. As driving interactions go, it's about as benign as it gets. I expect the magistrate has never ridden a bicycle, but I also wonder if they've ever driven a car?!
Thanks - I only had a quick peek on Streetview and I'm glad it works for locals, but it looked like "you say 'shared used facility', I say 'same old not-over-generous footway now with the odd blue sign". We don't need cycle paths absolutely everywhere, but looking at the size of the road, where it goes and runs though I would be thinking more like this (minus parked cars): https://maps.app.goo.gl/gswbQefKzc47nEJm8 Or... declare it an urban freeway and get rid of the junctions and houses next to it! Maximum flow...
@C3a Sadly, you are not far off the mark. I know of two instances where promising junior riders "stopped" racing; they didn't disappear, just did not attend races, were still doing all the training and then came back a couple of years later at 18/19 year olds and were starting to destroy races. You don't find them racing anymore, and the "bans" are not listed anywhere. I guess the same as any individual riders in this case would not be listed anywhere because of their age.
My personal theory is that this is how modern doping happens; do all of the performance enhancement early on and train hard on top of that - the boost will allow you to reach heights that would otherwise not have been attainable. After that it is all about maintenance and minor improvements, likely achievable after the pharmacological crutch has been removed. From this story it seems the spectre of doping will continue to hover over professional cycling that little bit longer. No other sport seems to have been affected in quite this way.
Of course most (otherwise law abiding) motorists don't keep to the 20mph limit especially without enforcement, guess what, given the opportunity, many, if not most, will not keep to the 30mph limit and there will still not be any enforcement. But what a 20mph limit does is bring the speeds down, resulting in less crashes, which, when they do occur will result in less damage, reduce the severity of injuries and the number of deaths. And what we really want is more dead children, isn't it councillor?
I think the prosecution have just persuaded tthe magistrate that the driver had to move towards the kerb to accommodate the cyclist. That movement is visible in the video, though I accept there's a chicken and egg question whether the cyclist forced the move, or only proceeded when it was clear the driver had moved over for them.
Which rule(s) are you thinking of? The 1.5m wording appears in rule 163, which is expressly about overtaking.
69 thoughts on ““I need to check the power to see if he’s got talent”: Criminal mastermind behind G’s bike theft was 15; Good Samaritan driver lends cyclist spare light; Peloton got worse; Aussie cycle fines; Xan der Poel; Riding through floods + more on the live blog”
That says a lot about the
That says a lot about the roads if they feel safer there
Next Darwin contestant.
Next Darwin contestant.
Bah, its clearly just a kid
Bah, its clearly just a kid having a bit of fun – probably a dare from his mates; nice one lad! no harm no foul. Lighten up you lot.
alexuk wrote:
And when a wave pulls him into the water and rescue service personnel have to put their own lives in danger to save him?
Rendel Harris wrote:
Never mind that – all that salt water, that’s bicycle abuse.
Hahaa! so true! his poor
Hahaa! so true!
his poor chain.
You can live your life in a
You can live your life in a box to stay safe if you like. Everytime you walk down the pavement, you could be risking the safety of Ambulance crews to save you if you trip over and crack your head on the floor. Don’t expect others to be so afraid of life. For all we know, that kid was a sea cadet or someone that knows the local sea and conditions well. BE BRAVE Rendel
It’s not being brave to be
It’s not being brave to be stupid and put others at risk if they have to save you. If the police closed off that promenade they did it for a reason, to take that risk is stupid, just like skating on a lake where there are warnings that the ice is thin would be. As a former off-piste skier, rugby player and someone who loves high-speed descending (not to mention commuting in London) I’m not “afraid of life”, but I don’t take stupid risks against the advice of experts that could mean other people being put at risk to help me.
He got away with thus made
He got away with thus made the right decision. A relatively low risk activity just like off piste sking, playing rugby or riding down hill quickly.
mattsccm wrote:
Skiing off piste when there are avalanche warnings out and it’s banned is highly dangerous and no responsible skier does it – that’s the equivalent here.
Rendel Harris wrote:
I’m in two minds about this. Is it brave or stupid to go climbing in teh cairngorms for example. If anything goes wrong the mountain rescue team has to come and get you – sometimes their job is recovering bodies.
They are volunteers. But it is dangerous for them (and traumatic potentially). But they do volunteer.
I mentioned in passing a while back that I’m getting into sailing. Some of that is offshore. I’m glad that the RNLI is there. Am I being stupid and putting their lives at risk, as they might potentially need to rescue me someday? BTW if they didn’t exist I’d still be sailing.
I’m not contradicting you. However the line that is drawn between legitimate [risky] activity and stupidity is highly subjective.
Yes it is difficult to know
Yes it is difficult to know where the line is, I agree, but when there’s a clear line as here of the area being closed as dangerous, that’s fairly obvious, just as I wouldn’t go walking in the high peaks if mountain rescue put out a warning not to, or as I expect you wouldn’t go sailing if the coastguard put out a warning that conditions weren’t safe for leisure craft?
Rendel Harris wrote:
Mountain rescue may well put out warnings in the conditions that you (if keen) really want to experience – I’ve been out in such conditions.
Likewise with sailing (not me at this stage, but one of my aims is to take part in ocean racing – conditions can be and frequently are brutal, and way beyond anything the coastguard would consider safe) You may be correct re leisure craft (define leisure….), however that is more equipment rating than anything else.
In the case of the storm cyclist above it didn’t appear that the authorities had closed the route. I wonder what the risk is to the individual (which is their own business natch), the risk to emergency services (which is also their and their employer’s consideration) weighed against the benefit – and this may be key. Did the rider have a reasonable alternative to that course of action?
Also I’m a bit cautious about viewing risk of individual actions through the prism of morality (except where your actions directly impact others). When folk come a cropper sometimes onlookers lose their sense of empathy (as they would never be so stupid) rather than maintaining a sense of ” there but for the grace of gods….”
Captain Badger wrote:
From the story above: “This one’s from Vancouver where Park Board officials announced the closure of Stanley Park and the seawall.”
Rendel Harris wrote:
Missed that, thx. Did the rider know it was closed?, and was there a suitable safe alternative?
Looking at the map the path
Looking at the map the path he’s on is the scenic route round the coast of Stanley Park; BC 99 highway, with a fabulous-looking totally segregated cycle path on both sides, runs straight acoss the centre of the island. Even if he needed to ride through that specific area, fifty yards north is Stanley Drive, a quiet road that mirrors the exact path of the seawall. I think it’s fairly clear the guy was doing it for a dare more than anything.
Rendel Harris wrote:
Fair enough. Well anyway, I think we can all agree that it was just as well that he was wearing a helmet. It probably saved his life.
Captain Badger wrote:
No hi viz, though. How are the waves supposed to see him?
Steve K wrote:
Waves only see in monochrome, so it probably was ok
Captain Badger wrote:
Well it might have done if he’d been washed away, polystyrene floats, doesn’t it?
I have walked along that
I have walked along that seawall on a nice summer day. I was in Vancouver visiting friends who has moved out there from Scotland.
While I have no idea what the conditions were like when the photo was taken, I do remember my friends saying that every wee bit of rain was described as a storm by the local media and how the Pacific generally lived up to its name compared to living in Scotland.
Sniffer wrote:
Ohhhh, you have a woman’s storms my lord!
You call that a storm…..
You call that a storm….. when I was a boy we used to…….
Rendel Harris wrote:
Life has a 100% death rate; you can either cower in bed and die miserable and unfulfilled, or you can get out there and embrace it.
Fulfilment doesn’t exist in
Fulfilment doesn’t exist in the world; we have to create it for ourselves.
So you could cower in bed and find fulfilment in that.
eburtthebike wrote:
I do thanks, to the extent that one can carrying 53 years and a few health issues (plus having a wife who sensibly vetoes some of my more stupid ideas), but I don’t regard ignoring safety advice and putting myself in a position where others might have to take risks to pull my chestnuts out of the fire as a necessary element to do so.
alexuk wrote:
The difference being, the ambulance crews don’t have to enter a high risk area to recover you, so while this is still a drain on public resources, it is not putting them in danger in the same way as volunteer lifeboat crews would be to rescue someone from a stormy sea.
Rendel Harris wrote:
It doesn’t look that dangerous to me. The waves aren’t that big, just a high tide and a bit of wind blowing the spray over the wall.
davebrads wrote:
Heard of freak waves when the sea’s like that? How many people who were swept out to sea off jetties, promontories etc went up there saying “Ooh look, twenty foot waves, I’m going up there!” In 99% of cases it would have looked safe until suddenly it wasn’t.
For once Rendel is correct
For once Rendel is correct (stopped clock and all that).
People underestimate the power of the sea and waves all the time – far more people drown and get into difficulties than you think, it’s not something to be messed with.
Ah Good Day.
Ah Good Day.
For once we can agree on the underlying sentiment (blind squirrel, nut etc)
Toodles
Rendel Harris wrote:
Or going paddleboarding on a river during a yellow weather warning for flooding and wind.
Lucas Brunelle? Is that you?
RE: storm cyclist
Lucas Brunelle? Is that you?
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2017/09/a-brief-dispatch-today-because-of.html
RE: Storm cyclist.
RE: Storm cyclist.
Meh. Local lad sees and raises you:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scotland-49275630
I’d have given him bonus points if he’d gone round the cars checking if the occupants needed a backie.
Lucas Brunelle? Is that you?
Double post
That salt water ain’t gonna
That salt water ain’t gonna do the bike much good…..
I actually like the look of
I actually like the look of that Peloton car – I avoid riding in the city, feel too vulnerable and some of the road layouts are horrendous, forcing you into tram lanes, bus lanes, bike lanes that are between 2 regular lanes that people frequently cross…
If I was powering the vehicle by cycling but had the frame protection of a small car – I’m all for that!
ike2112 wrote:
You need one of these www.mypodride.com
http://www.mypodride.com/podride-videos
thanks for reminding me of
thanks for reminding me of podride, i would love one of them !
ike2112 wrote:
If you were powering that thing by cycling, you’d be faster walking.
Re: sharing lights.
Re: sharing lights.
I was cycling home in the dusk and the guy in front of me had a dead / dying rear light. I had two so offered him one. He declined and just took the front light and attached it to the rear of his bike…..
I hate it when people put the
I hate it when people put the wrong light on the wrong end of their bikes.
White light at the rear?
Red light at the front?? 
brooksby wrote:
Easy, just ride in reverse
My emergency light can do red
My emergency light can do red or white, the plan being that if one of my normal lights dies it can replace either.
Also blue, green, rainbow, and a very fetching red/blue police style strobe. Never been stopped for that one and it does cut down the close passes.
brooksby wrote:
Maybe it was one of these
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/cl-500-front-or-rear-led-usb-bike-light/_/R-p-186411?mc=8584256
IanGlasgow wrote:
I can sort of see the idea behind that, but it means people need to actually remember to turn it round depending on which end of the bike they’re attaching it to…
Always pleasant when an
Always pleasant when an expected confrontation switches to something else: a while back a police car pulled up alongside me at the lights in Nine Elms, passenger window rolled down:
“That your bike sir?”
“It is, yeah.”
“Had it long?”
“Few years.”
“What do you make of the Di2 then, I’m trying to decide whether it’s worth the upgrade.”
I had a taxi driver call out
I had a taxi driver call out to me out of the window and ask how good I found my garmin.
Can’t have been in Surrey
Can’t have been in Surrey then, all they’d have wanted to know is where the nearest Krispy Kreme is on the way back to their Twitter desk.
Nigel never really gets how
Nigel never really gets how things work. The story is about people doing nice things, all the replies before his are about people doing nice things. His response was to make an attack on a group of people he doesn’t like because they have on occasion stuck up for cyclists.
Have a good day, and that includes you too Nigel.
Garage at Large wrote:
It was not, however two years ago my wife and I stopped to help a lady who had crashed in “Little Switzerland” round the back of Box Hill; the police happened to arrive before the ambulance and they could not have been more efficient or more helpful in calming and reassuring the lady that everything was going to be alright, securing the safety of the road, and even calling the lady’s boyfriend and arranging to meet him at a specific police station so he could pick up her bicycle. Both officers, incidentally, looked extremely fit (in the physical health sense, not the attractiveness sense, although Mrs H assured me they also fitted the bill in the latter sense); chatting with them while waiting for the ambulance it transpired that one was in training for his first triathlon and the other was a fell runner in his spare time, so I doubt Krispy Kreme formed a significant part of their diet.
Garage at Large wrote:
Ah there he is.
D minus. Must try harder.
Recently a 4 x 4 stopped on a
Recently a 4 x 4 stopped on a narrow rural lane and as I was squeezing past the driver said “I just wanted to warn you that about 200 metres ahead the road is flooded and I don’t think you’ll get through”.
I’ve also had a white van man offer me and my bike a lift home when I was stopped trying to fix a mechanical and another one stopping to warn me that there was a big pothole on the inside of the bend I was approaching.
Kapelmuur wrote:
They were all cyclists really, just being forced to drive.
I’m not sure I’d react that
I’m not sure I’d react that positively to such an offer of lights in that situation, but that maybe my fiercely independent streak at play.
How much use is a light anyways that’s so cheap you carry them round in a glove box in a car, fully charged obviously all the time, and happily hand them out like sweets.
I’d like to think I’d notice the light had failed anyway and had some kind of back up plan,which wouldnt rely on encountering some random munificent benefactor on the way.
A while back I bought a job
A while back I bought a job lot these:
Pretty much disposable, but under 50p a unit. I usually carry a couple as spares and have given them to other cyclists without lights after dark. Never had a negative response to the offer and they are fine for use round town.
Did you buy the mug at the
Did you buy the mug at the same time?
At that price, I’d be
At that price, I’d be concerned that they were manufactured by Bangladeshi three year olds or something…
I like to think of it as
I like to think of it as daycare with a purpose.
Tom Pidcock used to plant
Tom Pidcock used to plant trees to offset the emissions from travelling for races.
Now he’s planning to go to Oregon just to run 5km, besides working for an oil, fracking and plastics company.
HarrogateSpa wrote:
To be fair (and absolutely agree with the criticism re the company by whom he’s now sponsored) he’s said he may drop in to Nike’s Oregon HQ to try a 5k on their track after he’s raced the cyclocross WC in Arkansas in January – still a fair trip but he’s not planning on a transatlantic jaunt just to run a 5k.
Good grief, there’s some
Good grief, there’s some whinge-bags on here.
It was an onshore gale, hence the barge being run-aground. I spend a lot of time out on the seas and oceans, or at least I did pre-Covid and there’s nothing there that is inherently dangerous. The only reason the waves are coming over the seawall is due to their momentum being stopped by the seawall itself, but the amount of seawater topping the seawall isn’t going to be enough to drag a person into the sea.
There’s nothing in the panoramic shots to indicate any possibility of a rogue wave, the water is probably too shallow, or the seabed to flat.
Some people just need to worry needlessly about everything. One wonders how you even get out of bed in the mornings?
However, his actions could be construed as dangerous for nothing more that it could encourage others to do something more risky to gain likes on social media
Thanks Professor.
Thanks Professor.
Talking out my arse again
Talking out my arse again
‘One wonders how you even get
‘One wonders how you even get out of bed in the mornings?’
After a fully audited risk assessment, of course.
I think this picture sums up
I think this picture sums up the Peleton crap sufficiently well.
Quite right, antisocial,
Quite right, antisocial, taking up space and frankly boring. And it’s not even getting the lout out of the car. We can do better:
“Aussie cycling fines are a
“Aussie cycling fines are a constant source of bewilderment for those of us on the other side of the world.”
No they aren’t; they hate cyclists and want them off the road, so just like the UK, but with their Aussie directness, they are just blatantly open about it, instead of sneaky and underhand like the Brits.
In Australia bicycles are
In Australia bicycles are classified as a vehicle and riders can be fined equally with motorists, except where special rules for bicycles are deemed necessary to fine them well out of proportion to motorists. And any rules designed to protect cyclists must be offset with absurd fines on ridiculous rules just so cyclists know their place.