Cyclist’s hilarious “passive-aggressive sign battle” with NIMBY neighbour; Jumbo-Visma manager wants external course safety checks; Bruyneel says UCI all about money; Clothes brand slammed for shocking ‘Ride Bikes F**k B*tches’ tee + more on the live blog
SUMMARY
Weekend catch-up
Too busy singin’ in the rain this weekend? Here’s what you missed…
Taxi groups asking for judicial review of London’s emergency cycling infrastructure
Egan Bernal out of the Critérium du Dauphiné with two weeks to go to the start of the Tour de France
Council defends using image of cyclists without helmets to promote cycling
RideLondon cyclists do their bit for charity despite cancellation of this weekend’s event
UCI considers action against Il Lombardia organisers after driver crashes into Max Schachmann
Primoz Roglic abandons Criterium du Dauphiné following yesterday’s crash
People protesting against people-friendly streets, while advertising people-friendly streets again
4th weekly protest against road closures in Islington. Upper Street gridlocked. pic.twitter.com/DYk4VT1cBP
— Calum Fraser (@CalumFraser4) August 15, 2020
In another episode of ‘you couldn’t make it up’ from Islington, protestors are continuing to protest against low-traffic neighbourhoods by demonstrating the kind of things you can do in a low-traffic neighbourhood.
The row started after some raised concerns that barriers installed to prevent rat-running could harm local businesses or block access to emergency vehicles. Islington Council took to Twitter, presumably to address the protests, saying: “We’re moving forward urgently with people-friendly streets due to coronavirus. TfL
said without action to improve streets, traffic will get much worse as people who use public transport turn to cars. That would mean more pollution, more congestion & more danger on our roads.
Jumbo-Visma's team manager says he is in talks with other teams to introduce an external company to check courses for safety
After Primoz Roglic and Steven Kruijswijk were forced to abandon on the penultimate stage of the Criterium du Dauphiné, Richard Plugge – a former journalist and Jumbo-Visma’s manager since 2012 – has said there is “no more trust in the UCI”, and claims he has spoken to other teams extensively about external course safety checks.
Speaking to NOS before the final stage yesterday, Plugge said: “It must be safer for our riders.
“I have talked a lot about this with other team leaders and we all say we cannot continue to expose our riders to danger. It must end now. We no longer have confidence in the controls that the UCI do themselves.
“It just has to be different. Our helmets arw tested 1,000 times, but on a race course the UCI just quickly says “that’s fine”. It’s not okay.”
Plugge says that in consultation with other teams, he wants to hire a company that will professionally check course safety:
“For example, there must be certain conditions for the last kilometre if there is a bunch sprint, and also a method to how barriers are placed along the course”, he said.
Plugge continued: “We hope that this can be introduced for next season. Such a company can then say to the UCI: “It must be better, this is not good enough”; then it can be solved, because it simply has to be safer for our riders.”
World Tour events have been blighted by serious incidents since the restart, with Fabio Jakobsen left in a coma following a horror crash at the Tour of Poland, and Remco Evenepoel going over the side of a bridge after crashing at the Tour of Lombardy this weekend. At Lombardy, a motorist also got on the course and left-hooked unfortunate Bora-Hansgrohe rider Max Schachmann.
Head out for a ride, stay for the sea creatures
“Stop! There’s a lobster in the middle of the road!” Not a phrase you hear used very often. Found while on a bike ride around Saint Emilion. “Put me in the water and make it snappy”, we thought we heard him say. Think it was probably a crayfish? @roadcc pic.twitter.com/kQ6Wkzk3uO
— Timsbury Cycle Group (@TimsburyCG) August 17, 2020
Thanks to Timsbury CG for bringing this unusual mid-ride encounter to our attention… anyone else ever had a near miss with a freshwater crustacean?
Cyclist fights back against unauthorised 'no cycling' signs with hilarious counter-sign campaign
THREAD.
What happened when ‘No Cycling’ signs went up unannounced in our village?
In May, in the height of lockdown, a pair of signs went up in our village – along the road we live on.
It’s a small hamlet with an unmade road. It looks like this. There’s 13 houses.
1/. pic.twitter.com/PaOc0ZbKuE
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
While nipping things in the bud with a confrontation might be a more time-efficient way of dealing with things, it could be more uncomfortable and certainly wouldn’t be as funny as the way Andrew ‘Bernie’ Bernard dealt with a neighbour who objected to cyclists existing near his patch. For those who don’t have Twitter, we’ve unrolled the whole thread from number two onwards (the first one is above) and picked out the best photo tweets in the thread for you below…
Here’s the first sign (with a bike I made up against it).
It’s not very polite and it’s aggressive.
And frankly, unnecessary because aside from residents and a few walkers and cyclists, our road is quiet. It’s a dead-end with a bridge and footpath at the end.
2/. pic.twitter.com/iqTNHKKKFE
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
“Our lane runs parallel with the A65 (the main road between Kendal and Skipton – a major and busy cross-country road) and people who cycle on our lane do so largely because the A65 has a pinch-point where trucks and cars drive at 50 / 40 through a village on it. It’s unsafe.
“There were rumours about who put the signs up, it was a secret in plain sight, a farmer who lives near the bridge and who seems to hate fun. I live 4 doors from him and I’m a cyclist so, well, it annoyed me. During a pandemic he was trying to stop people using bikes.
So…I made an adaptation to a sign on my way out on a ride.
Not too badly. Just subtle. Just a bit annoying.
5/. pic.twitter.com/8G1dk9eYcl
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
“Two days later the labels were gone. He was on to me. So I did it again. He removed the labels. Again. It seemed he was having to monitor his signs. Funny. Now, rumours were starting about WHY the signs had gone up and it appears that he was once ‘surprised’ by a group of women cycling by as they came to the end of the road before dismounting and walking across the bridge. It ‘surprised’ him as he was putting his wellies on at his front door. Surprised. That’s it. Not struck or hit. Surprised. So his campaign started.
He then put up some bigger, uglier and frankly, angrier and more over-the-top signs. Proper solid plastic signs and big fence posts. (He’s a fencing and walling contractor).
They were proper sledgehammer to crack a non-existent nut territory.
8/. pic.twitter.com/XAiOo3Uw8n
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
“Our road is unmade, unadopted but not technically ‘private’. People are allowed to walk or push their bikes along it to get to the public footpath. People walk by, run and occasionally cycle. They’re polite because most see it as a nice cut through. The signs were daft.
So I decided to put up some daft signs of my own.
Beware of the Kangaroo was the first one. Nice metal sign. EBay.
That was up for a few days and then another went up…
10/. pic.twitter.com/oFvSgJTiqY
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
“Beware of the Giraffe then went up high (stepladders, midnight) so the giraffes knew we were on to them. A couple of people mentioned them around the village and wider area. I kept quiet.
Beware of the Dragon was the next to be erected on a telegraph pole but it was a bit invisible so I moved it to the notice board.
It got noticed.
People started looking around for more daft signs and a mum and her son were ‘collecting’ them and posting on Facebook.
12/. pic.twitter.com/dDDQWi1ajg
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
“We’re into June now and the big signs are still up. I wrote to Lancashire Travel about the signs and that they were anti-cycling in a time when they were trying to encourage more walking and cycling and wrote to the parish council. And started the inversion campaign.
Sorry 2 x 12/.!
Then another sign appeared on the A65 and another next to the public footbridge with the same ugly aggressive message.
They were inverted too.
The next days they were put right. He was now watching out for all his signs daily.
13/. pic.twitter.com/H5SiLxKGPW
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
As well as the animal signs I got some other beauties and put them up. One on the bridge…
(Note tractor in background).
14/. pic.twitter.com/1AktFuF9P0
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
And another right next to the tractor and farmer’s house.
This was my favourite.
(That big bit of plywood above the sign was another No Cycling sign).
15/. pic.twitter.com/Xer1u1RKSa
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
“I was also now covering up the No Cycling signs with other temporary signs that were left behind by road workers etc. They were often removed the next day or the day afterwards. I emailed the parish council again.
I found a massive (A2 maybe) THINK BIKE sign which was broken and added that to the back of the farmer’s sign posts. It’s huge.
I occasionally inverted the No Cycling signs and they were righted the next day.
We also found out he was shouting at kids and women on bikes.
17/. pic.twitter.com/KZ0NVG7mf4
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
I spoke to the parish councillor again about the signs and the risk of injury to cyclists and the horrible tone of the signs.
I also put up this last sign.
Lots of people were asking my daughters if they knew anything about the signs and sending me pics ‘was this you?’
18/. pic.twitter.com/KbeoLbgV5p
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
I then also got a more polite adhesive sign and put it over the NO CYCLING sign at the entrance to the lane.
Anyway, while we were on holiday a friend sent us a pic of the absence of. NO CYCLING signs.
They’ve all gone. No idea what happened. But they’re gone.
19/. pic.twitter.com/rLjbmM8K9h
— Bernie | TEDx | Author | FPSA. (@EnterpriseSBox) August 17, 2020
“What’s the message here, maybe persistence? I know I didn’t tackle it head-on but then that would have created years of anger. A subtle subversive campaign plus lobbying? I don’t know. It may seem daft but it was a bad image for the village and danger for cyclists?
“I enjoyed the fun and creativity of it. I love that people were looking out for the little silly signs which maybe made the aggressive ones look a little more daft. Anyway, for now the passive-aggressive sign battle is paused. Where is my Mind The Gap sign though?”
Clothing brand lambasted for horrendous 'Ride Bikes F**k B*tches' t-shirt
Where The Trail Begins, a ‘MTB x Streetwear’ brand who we believe are based in the UK, are going viral for all the wrong reasons after posting a photo of a t-shirt design that is simply printed with the slogan: “Ride Bikes Fuck Bitches”.
The image of the t-shirt was posted yesterday, and Where The Trail Begins say it is now for sale on their website (we’ve embedded a different post above so you don’t have to see it). Of the hundreds of comments left underneath the post, it’s fair to say many weren’t enthused. Surrey Hills Cycle Works replied: “This is shit, and is truly nothing to do with the wonderful sport of bike riding that I am involved in.”
Penny Wood commented: “In what way do you think this is appropriate to 1. Produce 2. Wear. This is the 21st century. Do better”; while Jim Brady said: “No thanks. I’d rather throw my $ at someone who tries to include everyone in our great sport and not at someone who thinks it is funny to degrade half the population.”
The company have no link to a retail website on their Instagram account that we can find, which is probably for the best…
*Update 15:00: a link to the company’s website on their Instagram bio has now appeared.
Join us at 7pm tonight on Zwift for the chance to win socks!
We’re back on Zwift tonight with another Ride Your Socks Off! event. It’s a D category ride, so it’s a good one for a recovery ride or if you’re just finding your feet in Zwift. One lucky rider will win a pair of road.cc socks, too. You gotta be in it to win it…
"The only thing that matters is $$$": Lance Armstrong's former manager Johan Bruyneel slams UCI safeguarding of riders
The only thing that matters is 🤑🤑🤑 Emma. It will never change, as long as the current business model of cycling remains unchallenged.
— Johan Bruyneel (@JohanBruyneel) August 16, 2020
Emma O’Reilly – the former US Postal team soigneur who was one of the first to accuse Lance Armstrong of doping back in 1999 – makes the comparison between an alleged lack of safeguarding for riders when it comes to doping and the current row around course safety. Of all the people to respond, it’s Armstrong’s former manager Bruyneel who says that things will never change “as long as the current business model of cycling remains unchallenged.”
If anyone knows about doping in cycling it’s Bruyneel, who was “at the apex of a conspiracy to commit widespread doping” while managing the US Postal Service team according to an arbitration panel that banned him for ten years in 2014. In 2018, Bruyneel had his original ten-year ban extended to life following the testimony of former US Postal Service doctor Luis Garcia del Moral. Dr del Moral – who had his ban reduced to five years in exchange for cop-operating with Wada, the UCI, and Usada – gave “credible, truthful, and useful” testimony according to a CAS panel of arbitrators, describing it as “the straw that literally broke the back of Mr Bruyneel’s evidence.”
Bruyneel defended his and Armstrong’s actions at the time, simply saying: “We were all children of our era.”
You can now recycle your inner tubes thanks to Cycle Of Good's handy initiative
Cycle Of Good – a company specialising in the refurbishment and sale of elephant bikes – is gradually expanding their inner tube recycling scheme, which allows bike shops to become hubs for cyclists to send their old inner tubes to stop them from going to landfill. The tubes are then made into accessories such as bags, belts and phone cases, all of which are for sale on Cycle Of Good’s website. To key in your postcode and find out where your nearest inner tube recycling point is, click here; alternatively you can simply send them directly to Cycle Of Good if you cover the postage.
President of the Professional Cyclists Union responds to Richard Plugge's calls for external course safety tests
#CPA president #GianniBugno replies to Jumbo-Visma team manager Richard Plugge. #WeAreTheRiders #SafetyFirst #StrongerTogether #Cycling pic.twitter.com/Uxf4OvS342
— CPA Cycling (@cpacycling) August 16, 2020
The CPA have published an open letter from Gianni Bugno, who claims that while his rider’s union does have people who check course safety, this is done on a “semi-voluntary basis”, and they don’t have access to course previews ahead of events like teams do.
Bugno says he wants to work with Plugge and the AIGCP – an organisation representing cycling teams of which the Jumbo-Visma manager Plugge is vice-chairman of – to discuss ideas going forward.
Strava update and improve 'Strava Goals' feature
The social fitness giants are continuing to roll out more improved features in return for that much talked-about subscription fee, with the latest update “ensuring athletes are able to set, track and challenge their fitness goals” according to Strava.
You can now set goals for 30+ sport types as well as the pre-existing swim, bike and running, set elevation goals and set monthly goals. If you’re the shy type, you also have the option of making your goals private, because it’s now moved to Sttrava’s Training tab which makes goals private to the individual athlete.
Strava say their Goals feature is important because according to their 2019 Year in Sport report, athletes who set a goal of three activities a week instead of two tended to be more consistent, resulting in twice as many activities over the year. They also found that for cycling, the most popular weekly goals tend to be 50, 62, 93 and 100 miles with Strava users.
Oxord County Council respond over accusations that video on active travel grant cash was "misleading"
That’s patently untrue. The active travel grant didn’t pay for that. Bit embarrassing. @CHAIRRDRF
— Scott Urban (@Urban_Turbo) August 13, 2020
Responding to road.cc regarding the video above, the council claim it is not misleading, and that the money did come from the Emergency Active Travel Fund. Some questioned the council’s wording, as the government specified that grants would not be awarded to councils whose projects didn’t meet the criteria.
A spokesperson said: “The work shown in the video is only part of the work being done under the grant; it is not misleading at all. The full scope of this work can be found here.
“In making our bid, our goal was always to spread the value of the money across the entire county rather focus it on a particular town or city. The absolute criteria for full funding of projects was not specified in detail.
“Our commitment is to the county as a whole and we have a comprehensive series of further cycle projects to look forward to which are in addition to those in the active travel grant. The county is wholly committed to supporting cycling and walking growth.”
17 August 2020, 08:36
17 August 2020, 08:36
Will the Fix Your Bike teething problems ever end?
“Nightmare” government Fix Your Bike scheme leaves bike shops waiting for payment
50,000 vouchers worth £50 each were snapped up when scheme launched last month
17 August 2020, 08:36
Police say they will act against close pass... from an actual police car
Near Miss of the Day 455: Police act against close pass (police) driver – “a warning letter or a fixed penalty or a prosecution has been issued”
Avon & Somerset Police thank cyclist who submitted footage “for helping to keep our roads safe”
Help us to bring you the best cycling content
If you’ve enjoyed this article, then please consider subscribing to road.cc from as little as £1.99. Our mission is to bring you all the news that’s relevant to you as a cyclist, independent reviews, impartial buying advice and more. Your subscription will help us to do more.
18 Comments
Read more...
-300x225.jpg "“Was one of them bad driving?” Newspaper criticised for publishing “8 dangerous cycling mistakes that put people in hospital”; Punchy finale without fans at wildfire-affected Tour de France + more on the live blog")
Read more...
Read more...
Latest Comments
@Pub bike Ah - forget being knocked off by a pedestrian wandering into the road without looking. That's still only 7.
I could only think of six things. 1. being rear-ended by a car 2. being t-boned by a car pulling out of a junction as you pass 3. being t-boned by a car turning into a side road across your path 4. head on collision in a narrow section you were already in because the car did not yield 5. being close passed/side-swiped by a car 6. Being knocked off by a passenger throwing an object at you Were the other two made up?
Only the brainwashed still watch television.
"The brakes and wheels also mirror the Mk I. I find this a little surprising. A traditional titanium fork was replaced with a carbon one, while a rim brake stayed in situ." I think Brompton have decided that adding disc brakes compromises the famous compact fold, which is really its USP. If you want discs, they also make the G-Line. Though some might say that distinction is a deliberate marketing decision rather than an engineering one. Kinetics do disc brake conversion kits for Bromptons, but fitting them requires both a new fork and a new rear frame, at which point you're not left with much original Brompton (or money), and the end result doesn't fold quite as small.
I considered replying to the 8 things that cause cyclist injuries post, but then decided if I did that I'd be feeding Meta/Facebook. In my experience facebook is just as happy to push hatred towards cyclists as the Mail/Telegraph etc. Replying to such posts just feeds the beast that pushes more hatred on to us.
RE: bus stop bypasses again. Daily Mail? That well-known accessibility-campaigning paper, which regularly demands streets have motor diets to better protect those with disabilities, children and the old? That Daily Mail? In a sense you can't really fault the campaign of the "National Federation of the Blind of the UK" - they're a tiny group eg. compared to the RNIB and yet they've managed to get massive prominence for their rather odd take... Anyway - councils and other groups working with RNIB hopefully can move things forward positively for all.
When ice is liquid, don't we usually call it 'water'?
Yes let's focus on the negatives shall we rather then celebrate what a magnificent career he had and became a great ambassador for the sport.
You forgot to include giving yourself a dose of heatstroke by riding all day in mid-40s temperatures.
@eburtthebike Sorry to hear that. I had a very worried wife who saw me being a goldfish. I kept going round the same loop of 4 statements. My shoulder really hurts, what happened? My watch is broken, I suppose the bike is fu***d? Apparently I did that for about 2 hours. I eventually came back to near normality about 5-6 hours later. I was on the phone to my wife and I suddenly realised I had cold feet. I looked at them and they were bare as were my legs, I said Bear this is a bit embarrassing I haven't got any trousers on, er nor a shirt what the hell is going on? She said you have been in an accident and you are at hospital. The bike had fingernail marks in the bar tape, a scuff to the back of the front mudguard, and a broken quill pedal. now all repaired. Somehow I managed to stop the bike but not me. The Helmet was cracked right through. I had a broken tooth a bust rib and a lot of bruising. Someone came out of a house and put me in the recovery position in the road until I came round. For me not remembering what happened is really quite frustrating. I have bought a go-pro clone to go on the bike but I haven't actually fitted it yet. It would be sensible to just to have a bit of evidence if the same should ever happen again. After all there aren't always Londis shops with CCTV in just the right position are there?
18 thoughts on “Cyclist’s hilarious “passive-aggressive sign battle” with NIMBY neighbour; Jumbo-Visma manager wants external course safety checks; Bruyneel says UCI all about money; Clothes brand slammed for shocking ‘Ride Bikes F**k B*tches’ tee + more on the live blog”
A bit pot calling the kettle
A bit pot calling the kettle black from Plugge about rider safety when his man put Jacobsen into the barriers. However UCI does need to review certain courses better. I suspect it is harder for specific course safety now though with less volunteer marshalls and less spectators who would essentially be unofficial marshalls / barrier weights.
I don’t think it’s “pot
I don’t think it’s “pot calling kettle black”, sprinting has always involved jostling for position but a mistake or judgement lapse shouldn’t lead to a kid ending up in a coma fighting for his life.
The people of Islington
The people of Islington should visit Balham. The council has closed one of the side roads and all the local restaurants have put tables and chairs into the street. It’s glorious and in a matter of days has become completely mobbed. Bikes chained up everywhere and a really nice feel-good buzz about the place.
Helped by the fact that bikes can still ride through and there seems to be no friction at all.
It’s apparently taxi drivers
It’s apparently taxi drivers and the like protesting according to twitter.
Having worked in the area a number of years it was bloody frustrating every lunchtime crossing (trying to cross) the busy roads with the mental and dangerous driving going on. No real residents or shop owners could possibly want that, especially when 99.999999% of the cars are just passing through.
alexb wrote:
makes riding bikes quite hard I imagine, no going round corners, slowing down, or even accelerating.
White saddle, black handlebar
White saddle, black handlebar tape? NO !
“Our road is unmade,
“Our road is unmade, unadopted but not technically ‘private’.”
Hmm… This is probably not true – all land in the UK is owned (https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/05/search-owner-unregistered-land/). Even land owned by The Crown Estate is “private” with no automatic right of access (in England).
To be clear, footpaths, bridleways etc. are all on “private land” – it’s just that the public have a right of way over that land. It is still owned by the landowner.
That said, the farmer probably doesn’t own the whole road, and even if he did it doesn’t stop it being a dick move to try and stop people cycling on it.
That story about the
That story about the ‘clothing brand’ really is a little depressing. Although there’s something beautifully ironic about two grown men gurning in their bedroom while presumably ‘designing’ such crap (next to a sweetly placed bog roll and some dumped washing – perhaps their mums will come and clean up after them).
Ha!
Ha!
No doubt about it Plugge, the
No doubt about it Plugge, the UCI should lay on buses at the top of all mountain climbs to ferry the riders safely down to the bottom.
Andrew ‘Bernie’ Bernard
Andrew ‘Bernie’ Bernard clearly has far more time on his hands than he ought to, although I admire his persistence.
I particularly liked the ‘Beware: farm vehicles’ sign because that is, after all, perfectly reasonable and not silly, and no farmer could object to it.
My next door neighbour posted on my village FB group during lockdown that she thiought that bikes should be banned (yes! banned!) fir the duration of the Covid crisis, to stop cyclists spreading the virus… I just settled on ‘hard stares’ (TM Paddington Bear) when I saw her 😉
Quote:
I think it should be added to the dictionary:
Cop-operating: co-operating with the police. 🙂
Cycling on footpaths is not a
Cycling on footpaths is not a legal matter. Only a civil matter between landowner and user of path. A civil matter where the landowner is extremely unlikely to win.
https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/campaigns-guide/cycling-on-footpath-trespass
visionset wrote:
It is not a matter of criminal law; civil law is still very much a “legal matter”. The article you linked raises some interesting points over cycling on a public right of way (such as a footpath), but I don’t think it has been established whether or not there exists a public right of way over the road in question.
If there is no right of way, the landowner (NB – not a busybody resident unless they also own the road) would be within their rights to prohibit cycling and sue anyone who does so (although the damages would in all liklihood be nominal).
There is a public right of
There is a public right of way, I’ve tracked it down. It is a footpath, not a bridleway. And yes, legal, terminology, you get my drift.
I hate it when people go
I hate it when people go apeshit over offensive quotes and jokes. No I wouldn’t wear one of those t-shirts to a job interview or a womens rights protest, but I won’t make such a god dam fuss over someone wearing one either. Just leave stuff like that be FFS!
But then I wasn’t the kind of person to take offence (well not enough to make a fuss) to Clarkson’s “cyclists can fuck off” rant. I actually found it funny. Mostly because when the roads are clogged, “off” is exactly where I like to fuck, leaving the car driving masses to their miserable existence. And it is a miserable existence because I have to drive sometimes too, and it usually makes me miserable or pissed off.
No doubt if it said ‘ride
No doubt if it said ‘ride bikes, fuck Trump’ it would be lauded as stunning and brave. Maybe they can do a clergy friendly version ‘ride bikes, fuck kids’? Edgelord stuff.
Yep, we all have our things
Yep, we all have our things we’re offended by.
I find the F word offensive no matter what it’s attached to.