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Is it “often safest” for cyclists to go through red lights? Cyclists’ reactions are split, but some call it a response to tailgating; Regent Street turns to Paris and Barcelona to curb car traffic; 2029 UCI road Worlds in Denmark? + more on the live blog

We made it! Bid goodbye to the longest January ever and say hello to February with your usual dosage of cycling news on the road.cc live blog, with your host Adwitiya this Thursday

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01 February 2024, 09:20
Is it safer for cyclists to go through red lights? Social media reaction (and Community Notes) counter, but some call it a response to tailgating
Traffic lights (via Unsplash)

Before we begin any discussion on today's live blog, it'd be nice to provide a disclaimer: Jumping red lights is illegal for cyclists according to the Highway Code.

With that said, let's get into the latest storm that's brewing up in the world of cycling Twitter (cycling X doesn't have the same ring). Andy Boenau, an urbanist and active travel campaigner from Virginia, USA, has shared a video of a cyclist in London going through on red lights at a junction, with the words, arguing that it's "often safest for a cyclist to go through a red light", and claiming that video was an example of how a cyclist can safely keep momentum.

"Bicycles and motor vehicles should never be treated as equals, so "but red means stop!" isn't a useful reaction," he added.

While such a tweet was certain to bring the most staunch anti-cycling fanatics from the pits of the universe, this opinion has even led to a lot of cyclists in the UK disagreeing with the statement. Besides the rather lengthy and detailed Community Notes on Twitter reiterating the Highway Code rule 69 which says that cyclists "MUST obey all traffic signs and traffic light signals" (Is this the first time we've seen Community Notes being used for something like this?)

Cycling instructor and advocate from Birmingham Tim reacted to the tweet saying: "
This isn’t true. This is terrible cycling. And the red light jumping is only part of it. Cyclist should be in primary position for a start"

> Should cyclists be allowed to ride through red lights? Campaigners split on safety benefits

However, a few people, including Boneau also took an issue with the bus driver tailgating the cyclist, with some also arguing that jumping red lights is one way for cyclists to get rid of drivers creeping up way past the point of comfort behind them.

Boneau wrote: "With all the attention focused on this cyclist rolling through red at the end of the video, no one talks about the bus tailgating the cyclist at the start of the video. It's bad enough to ride up on a bike like that, but even worse knowing the bus is about to stop."

Another campaigner and Twitter user named Plastic Irony said: "Not going to jump onto a thread started from Virginia, but in UK context, I'd be taking issue with the tailgating first. Does that exonerate the cyclist? No, don't think it does, because car on other side is indicating right and not all junctions are directly symmetrical.

"Even if we take out the car on opposite, I've never accepted argument that it's ok to go through red simply because it builds gap from vehicles behind - they can just catch up anyway.

"But in early hours, especially on bike with step through frame, there's case to rethink law, but for now, just step out of frame and become a pedestrian, no law is being broken. See also lights that won't change due to poorly designed sensors. In my humble opinion neither apply here."

Just a couple of weeks ago, Surrey Police stopped and fined four cyclists jumping a red light and shared the video on social media, leading to a lot of commotion and questioning of the police force's actions.

> Under-fire police force releases full video of cyclists fined for ignoring red light amid questions over original footage

It also might be interesting to point out here that the safety of cyclists having to stop at red lights is probably one of the most divisive topics amongst cyclists. In fact, in some parts of the world, such as Colorado in the United States and Paris, France, it is perfectly legal for cyclists to go through red lights.

Cycling campaigner Gregory Kinsman-Chauvet of Bike for Good, speaking to Scotland on Sunday last year, even argued that similar practices could be implemented here in the United Kingdom.

But as we can all assume, the odds of that happening in the country right now seem quite low. But as always, no better place to express your opinions than the road.cc live blog comment section. So go ahead and let us know if you think cycling through red lights could be safer or not...

01 February 2024, 17:38
Cyclists and pedestrians could enjoy traffic-free Cheddar Gorge once a month under new plan
01 February 2024, 16:53
LTN in East Jesmond, Newcastle (Newcastle City Council)
"Absolutely disgusting verdict that doesn't take into account children at all": Cycling campaigners lament LTN removal despite "extremely positive" data showing reduced congestion

In a startlingly adverse decision for active travel in the city, Newcastle City Council has decided to remove the Jesmond low-traffic neighbourhood trials, citing increased residents journey times and unaffected emergency services, with 77 per cent in opposition of the scheme.

However, as one person pointed out, the increased journey times were of those using a car, and didn't include pedestrians and cyclists.

Newcastle-based researcher and urban planner said: "Newcastle Council to rip out Jesmond LTN despite the data being extremely positive. Whose voice mattered here? Not the children and young people growing up in the city. This is hugely disappointing news."

Meanwhile, transport journalist from Jesmond, Carlton Reid said: "Good news for motorists. Until, that is, congestion builds up again because of the excess of cars, especially as new housing developments will add to motor traffic in years ahead.

"This scheme mostly benefitted pedestrians. A great many residents will be shocked by the reintroduction of cars. Goal was to reduce number of car journeys in a very walkable neighbourhood. Goal was achieved. The noisy (and often abusive) complaints worked.

"Key complaint was length of time to do car journeys at peak times (car journeys off-peak were as swift as usual). Predicted traffic increase on Coast Road will mean junctions will clog up, leaving complainers wondering why removing LTN didn't solve the congestion problem."

In May last year, a self-proclaimed "keen cyclist" had launched a petition littered with factual errors objecting to the Jesmond LTN, with many residents and signatories of the petition calling for the trial consultation to be "axed immediately".

> Petition with “factual errors” to scrap low-traffic neighbourhood launched by a “keen cyclist” after just two months of trial

01 February 2024, 16:06
French rider goes cyclocross at Etoile de Bessèges
French pro cyclist does a Lance Armstrong at Etoile de Bessèges by going off-road — and almost getting taken out by support car driver

It's 2003 Tour de France. Lance Armstrong has built up his brash but winner reputation among cycling fans and is chasing a fifth consecutive yellow jersey. If he wins, he'd join the hallowed hall of fame of the riders with the most TdF titles, joining the likes of Jacques Anquetil, Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault, and Miguel Indurain. 

Will this be the year Jan Ullrich finally steps out of Armstrong's shadow and beats him to the maillot jaune, or someone else, say this one Kazhak rider by the name of Alexander Vinokourov take the top prize?

Come to stage 9, Vinokourov is on the attack on the descent of Col de Manse. The Spanish rider Joseba Beloki is trying to chase him down with the yellow jersey Armstrong on his tail. Beloki locks his wheel on the melting road surface and goes down. Armstrong has nowhere to go, cuts across the serpentine descent and goes over the swathes of grass, gets off his bike and hops back onto the road, rejoining the rest of the peloton. And in doing so, almost gets hit by the following riders and a race motorbike.

Why am I narrating all this? Because a very similar incident just took place in Etoile de Bessèges, with French pro Maximilien Juillard from team Van Rysel - Roubaix in the midst of all the action. 

When they say choose your idols carefully, they do really mean it.

I'm not going to lie, these last few weeks of watching cyclocross made me instinctively think that he was going to jump his bike down from the mini-cliff! Well, I'm glad at least no one was hit, because as soon as Juillard was on the road, it could have ended badly with the team car drivers coming up at speed behind him.

01 February 2024, 15:31
Bikmo partners with Quotezone/cyclists Cheddar Gorge(via Bikmo)
“It’s a public road!”: Cheddar Gorge road will close once a month to invite more cyclists and walkers, and drivers aren’t happy

Earlier this morning, news broke that the roads to the Cheddar Gorge, an incredibly lush (and also incredibly challenging — those who've tackled it on a saddle will know) route popular amongst the tourists in Somerset is set to close once a month to motor traffic, in order to make it more enjoyable for cyclists and walkers.

An Experimental Traffic Regulation Order (ETRO) has been placed by the Mendip Hills National Landscape Team who will see how the project goes, and are thus, looking for eventual feedback.

But naturally, the news hasn't been taken well by motorists and other petrolheads, who can't believe they will now have one day less to drive upto the ravine in Somerset.

Under the news post by BBC on Facebook asking if it was a "good idea", commenters have expressed their dissent, with one person saying: "For God's sake if you want to walk take the foot paths not the main road it's so laughable that someone got paid to think of that idea!"

Another person said: "Just another silly idea when someone's nothing else better to do, leave well alone its not just a visitors play place its home to many of us that use the road daily, and pay our taxes to do so."

A third person said that they've never had any problems with traffic in the area, however it was the cyclists who "tend to be the most inconsiderate road users in the gorge whilst also putting themselves and others at risk".

Others tried to be a bit more egalitarian with their outlook towards cyclists and drivers, one comment saying: "This is an excellent idea. However, in the interests of equality it should also be shut once a month for motor enthusiasts to do time trials. Fair’s fair and all."

01 February 2024, 14:48
Soudal Quick-Step's Tim Merlier records first win of 2024 in Tour of AlUla

Soudal Quick-Step's Belgian sprinter Tim Merlier has started the new cycling road season with a bang, winning the third stage of Tour of AlUla after missing out on the win and only managing a podium in the first stage of the race dominated by sweeping, sandy vistas (and echelons in the peloton, lots of them) in Saudi Arabia.

He managed to hold off UAE's Juan Molano, Rui Oliveira and Team DSM's Casper Van Uden, the current points leader who eventually finished third.

01 February 2024, 13:40
London traffic lights
What's the consensus on today's red-light debate? The road.cc readers have their say...

Going through on red lights: a complicated issue for some, a straightforward one for others. We've received a myriad of interesting and wide-ranging replies on our live blog, and here's a roundup of the most compelling ones.

MTB Refugee: "Red light means stop. End of discussion.
I cycle more than I drive, but as both a cyclist and a driver I really despair to see cyclists (or drivers) go through red lights.
Every cyclist who goes through red lights provide ammunition for the anti-cycling lobby. It is also illegal and it makes it tough to argue against motorists breaking the law (close passes etc.) if they can constantly refer to law breaking by cyclists."

Tom_77: "In an ideal world everyone would obey the highway code at all times.
In the real world drivers break the rules all the time*, frequently putting cyclists in danger. It's not surprising that cyclists sometimes feel the need to break the rules in order to put some distance between themselves and a carelessly driven motor vehicle.
Personally, I haven't ever jumped a red light. But I will cycle on an empty pavement if it's safer than the road."

bensynnock: "When I go out cycling I count how many motorists jump a red light and I permit myself to jump that many myself. I never get anywhere near to my limit.

It's always, one driving through on amber, second one accelerating through the amber, then the third accelerating even harder and going through on red. Every set of lights at every junction.

I am completely past the point of caring what the rules are. They were designed for cars. I obey them stringently when I drive the car, but very few other motorists do. They speed around the city, even over 40 in the 20 zones, they skip the lights, they sit on their phones, they never indicate, they cut corners at junctions, they never give way to pedestrians, they park across the pavement and cycle lanes... Any rule they think they can get away with breaking they will.

The rule breaking from drivers is relentless. It's a lawless mess. But apparently if I decide to take a right turn during the pedestrian phase of the lights so I'm not sat in the middle of the road with traffic passing on both sides until there's a gap, then that makes me the bad guy?

I don't actually do it very often, but if I feel it's safer then I'll break the rules. Everybody else does."

HoarseMann: "The green pedestrian signal was showing for cross traffic from the left, so the main consideration was traffic from the right. It was clear and getting across meant no conflict with the oncoming right-turning traffic. The bus behind had pulled into a stop, so less of a concern.

Yes, it's illegal, but if done with care then not unsafe. I would need to see more of this cyclist's riding style to know whether that was a carefully considered infraction or they were just oblivious!"

01 February 2024, 12:57
Councillor defends closing park "rat-run" to drivers to promote cycling and address "challenge" of "dominance of the car"
Poole Park (Facebook/Leave Poole Park Alone)

A councillor has urged locals to respect the consultation process and "see how the trial progresses" amid noise and protests from an outspoken group of residents unhappy at the decision to close a "rat-run" through a park in order to promote a safer environment for cyclists and walkers. 

From 17 January, a road through Poole Park, in the Dorset town, has been closed to through-traffic, preventing rat-running drivers using the heritage listed park in a conservation area as a cut-through near Sandbanks, one of the wealthiest neighbourhoods in the country.

Councillor Andy Hadley, BCP Council's portfolio holder for the environment, insisted the council does not have an "anti-car agenda" but there is a "challenge on our roads about the dominance of the car" with vehicles "getting bigger and more of them".

Read more: Councillor defends closing park "rat-run" to drivers to promote cycling and address "challenge" of "dominance of the car"

01 February 2024, 12:33
While we are at the topic of jumping traffic lights...

While everyone is at the topic of passionately debating whether red light-jumping for cyclists should be acceptable or not, CycleGaz has posted this compilation video of motorists clearly not giving heed to the traffic lights.

What are his thoughts on the cyclist going through on red lights from earlier today, you ask?

01 February 2024, 12:11
Meanwhile, cycling in Paris
01 February 2024, 11:35
the crown estate regent street artists impression - october 2020.PNG
Regent Street turns to Champs-Élysées in Paris and La Rambla in Barcelona to curb motor traffic and become more cycling-friendly

What's common between Champs-Élysées in Paris, La Rambla in Barcelona and Mariahilfer Strasse in Vienna?

Well, they're all definitely more cycling-friendly than a lot of London streets, including Regent Street. However, some of Europe's most famous shopping streets, along with other active travel-friendly cities such as Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Seville, are set to serve as inspiration for the iconic London street's "grand European overhaul".

According to The Standard, Westminster Council and The Crown Estate have unveiled their "Regent Street Public Realm Vision", which includes plans to reduce traffic to make way for more cyclists and pedestrians.

The council said the "ultimate ambition" is to create a "new green link through the heart of the West End" that connects St James’s Park to Regent’s Park. The project would also mean changes to Piccadilly Circus, Haymarket and parts of Pall Mall.

"This would emphasise and reimagine the famous architect John Nash's 'park-to-park' connection, set out over 200 years ago," a spokesman said.

Paul Dimoldenberg, cabinet member for city management and air quality, added: "The Regent Street Public Realm Vision report represents a commitment to a more vibrant, sustainable and inclusive urban environment. We’ve worked extensively with members of the public to shape a vision that is based on what they want to see."

Tadej Pogačar and Nathan Van Hooydonck, Champs-Élysées, 2023 Tour de France (Zac Williams/SWpix.com)

A Tour de France-style final stage for the Tour of Britain on Regent Street, with Tom Pidcock and Wout van Aert, racing in front of the three H&Ms and alarmingly high number of American candy shops? Well sign me up! (Here's to hoping the ToB makes a swift comeback...)

> Tour of Britain and Women's Tour no longer listed on UCI calendar

01 February 2024, 11:01
The company that owns bike brands such as Raleigh, Lapierre and Ghost is to "simplify operations and enhance efficiency" by merging facilities and cutting up to 150 jobs.
01 February 2024, 10:37
2023 Glasgow Track World Championships Denmark pic Alex Whitehead/SWpix.com
Denmark submits bid for road cycling World Championships in 2029

Cometh the man, cometh the hour. Is 2029 finally the year we see Jonas Vingegaard make an appearance on the UCI's cycling men's road World Championships?

On Wednesday, the Ministry of Culture announced that they have sent an official application to the International Cycling Union (UCI) for Denmark to host the World Cycling Championships in 2029, reports TV2.

The application states that Aarhus will host the individual starts, and the line races will be held in Zealand. The races will start in Helsingør and Roskilde, and the finish line is in Copenhagen.

UCI is expected to make the decision in September this year. So can we expect a road race around the streets of Copenhagen to crown the best rider with the rainbow arounds?

As of now, the upcoming destinations for road cycling Worlds are Zurich this year, followed by Rwanda, Montreal, Haute-Savoie and then Abu Dhabi in 2028.

> "How are they going to cope with all the rainbows?": UCI criticised for awarding hosting rights to UAE and Saudi Arabia

01 February 2024, 10:23
Tiny Pogi! Photo of 12-year-old Tadej winning the Criterium Grand Prix race in Slovenia

Adwitiya joined road.cc in 2023 as a news writer after graduating with a masters in journalism from Cardiff University. His dissertation focused on active travel, which soon threw him into the deep end of covering everything related to the two-wheeled tool, and now cycling is as big a part of his life as guitars and football. He has previously covered local and national politics for Voice Wales, and also likes to writes about science, tech and the environment, if he can find the time. Living right next to the Taff trail in the Welsh capital, you can find him trying to tackle the brutal climbs in the valleys.

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97 comments

Avatar
lonpfrb replied to mitsky | 3 months ago
1 like
mitsky wrote:

If anyone (ie anti-cycling trolls) complains that cyclists aren't being held to account, show them this:
(regarding drivers giving false registration/address details to DVLA etc)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-68152945

The DVLA Vehicle registration system is broken because second hand sales do not include any verification of the identity nor address of the person to whom the vehicle is transferred to.

It should be a requirement to present documents in person for verification but it's not so any trash can be written on the registration form parts leading to fully incorrect and illegal data.

Add the low value of old vehicles Vs the cost of insurance being not really worth it i.e. completely ignoring 3rd party liability and you have a really broken system.

Plenty of evidence on this platform of vehicle enforcement being low to non-existent as a police priority.

Avatar
Rendel Harris | 3 months ago
7 likes

Quote:

Cheddar Gorge, an incredibly lush (and also incredibly challenging — those who've tackled it on a saddle will know) route

I've only ridden it a couple of times, and heaven knows I'm the opposite to a mountain goat, but while I agree it's absolutely beautiful and every British cyclist should ride it at least once, "incredibly challenging?" It's 3.5km at 4.7%, with a total elevation of 165m (Veloviewer climb) - it's a Cat 3! Admittedly there's a nasty 500m or so about a kilometre in where it ramps up to 12% but that's over almost before you've registered it and the rest is really a doddle, even for me.

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andystow | 3 months ago
4 likes

I only run red lights under three conditions:

  1. It's clearly not detected me and I'm going to be sitting there forever.
  2. It's a light I'm familiar with, and I know it's never going to change for me.
  3. I'm on a wide shoulder or bike lane and going across the top of a T junction.
Avatar
IanMK | 3 months ago
10 likes

I was out cycling with a mate. We came to some road works. Red light so I stopped. He continued through the red light and cycled up the inside of the coned off area (weekend so no workers). Light goes green, the stream of trafffic with me at the front set off passing him, still in the coned off area. The moment we get through the roadworks the bus behind me close passes me. So yes it would have been much safer to be my mate and go through the red light.

In general I don't run red lights (can't say never) but the cyclist is much more adaptable. We can make risk based decisions to choose the safest option for ourselves and often that might help the genaeral flow of traffic. However, the law is not nuanced.

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Steve K replied to IanMK | 3 months ago
3 likes

I think that's pretty much where I am.

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IanMSpencer replied to IanMK | 3 months ago
4 likes

I've done that, but as the offence is going through the red light, any red light I want to take liberties with, typically temporary ones, I will dismount to go through the light.

Motorists go two ways when you go in the cones when it is obviously safe, pleased you have got out of the way, or incensed because you are a cyclist, especially if you get out the other end before them, you can't win.

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IanMK replied to IanMSpencer | 3 months ago
0 likes

.

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stonojnr replied to IanMK | 3 months ago
0 likes

Unfortunately alot of cyclists aren't nuanced either, for every example of one doing the right thing in that situation, there are as many that won't.

And the close pass isn't connected to whether you stop at a light or not, they're completely independent events.

in a world without traffic lights or you stopping, the bus still catches up with you, it likely still close passes you.

Avatar
IanMK replied to stonojnr | 3 months ago
1 like

I would argue that they are potentially not independent events. The bus driver is on a schedule. He was stuck behind me through a long stretch of road works where he can't overtake. I think that might already be testing his patience and therefore more likely to attempt a risky overtake.

Avatar
don simon fbpe | 3 months ago
5 likes

Surely there must be statistics out on Google, which never lies, and research, which is never biased, to support both sides of the red light jumping debate. Questioning these sources would be nothing less than silly.

Personally, if there is no danger, the law itself might need rewriting. Plenty of countries manage with a flashing amber.

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brooksby | 3 months ago
3 likes

I like the French idea of using a box of macarons for scale yes

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bensynnock | 3 months ago
10 likes

When I go out cycling I count how many motorists jump a red light and I permit myself to jump that many myself. I never get anywhere near to my limit.

It's always, one driving through on amber, second one accelerating through the amber, then the third accelerating even harder and going through on red. Every set of lights at every junction.

I am completely past the point of caring what the rules are. They were designed for cars. I obey them stringently when I drive the car, but very few other motorists do. They speed around the city, even over 40 in the 20 zones, they skip the lights, they sit on their phones, they never indicate, they cut corners at junctions, they never give way to pedestrians, they park across the pavement and cycle lanes... Any rule they think they can get away with breaking they will.

The rule breaking from drivers is relentless. It's a lawless mess. But apparently if I decide to take a right turn during the pedestrian phase of the lights so I'm not sat in the middle of the road with traffic passing on both sides until there's a gap, then that makes me the bad guy?

I don't actually do it very often, but if I feel it's safer then I'll break the rules. Everybody else does.

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alchemilla replied to bensynnock | 3 months ago
1 like

Agree. The Idaho Stop has worked for cyclists for decades now.

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Homebaker replied to alchemilla | 3 months ago
0 likes

That seems very sensible, a system designed for cars but bikes. Eyes are right at the front on a bike, and most of us can hear the traffic around us, both unlike cars.

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mattw | 3 months ago
2 likes

Do we have any informationa about that redesign for Regent Street - I think that photo is Oxfrod Street, which is a total dog's breakast - they are treating cycles and mobility aids to be like motor vehicles.

1 traffic lane in each direction, and they can't even create a separated mobility track?

Borough of Westminster stuck in the 1980s FFS.

Will Regent Street be a similar multimillion pound mess? I can't find any ddesign information anywhere.

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Rendel Harris replied to mattw | 3 months ago
0 likes

mattw wrote:

Do we have any informationa about that redesign for Regent Street - I think that photo is Oxfrod Street, which is a total dog's breakast - they are treating cycles and mobility aids to be like motor vehicles.

It is Regent Street, or at least an artist's impression thereof, I'm pretty sure the right-hand turn there is the one into New Burlington Street. What's worrying is that if that's the artist's impression of what it's going to look like at the end of the project, I can't see a great deal of change between that and what's there now, paint-only cycle lanes abutting very narrow vehicle lanes. It's not a pleasant street to cycle down at the moment, I can't really see anything there that would effect an improvement.

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cyclisto | 3 months ago
2 likes

It is all about momentum. Among motorists, cyclists and pedestians, cyclists will spend massively more human energy to regain their traveling speed compared to other road users.

A good first step would be to select a small city and do trials at selected junctions where red lights will be allowed to be crossed by cyclists.

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I love my bike replied to cyclisto | 3 months ago
1 like

It's free interval training!

How do you account for the ~40s recovery time that the red-light jumper misses out on?

Anyway, how much energy is actually needed to accelerate a 15kg bicycle? (A 2t car will need orders of magnitude more energy/fuel/pollution)

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cyclisto replied to I love my bike | 3 months ago
5 likes

That's why I said human energy. Of course a car will need more, but the driver will just gently step on a pedal, so he will be the least tired of all humans.

Nah not cycling to train, just commute.

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stonojnr replied to cyclisto | 3 months ago
0 likes

It's trialled every day in London, it's not working for pedestrians, that much I know.

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wycombewheeler replied to stonojnr | 3 months ago
3 likes

stonojnr wrote:

It's trialled every day in London, it's not working for pedestrians, that much I know.

Have you got the figures on pedestrians injured at red lights by cyclists, and by drivers?

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stonojnr replied to wycombewheeler | 3 months ago
0 likes

You could have said time there and just said, but what about ?

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Tom_77 | 3 months ago
5 likes

In an ideal world everyone would obey the highway code at all times.

In the real world drivers break the rules all the time*, frequently putting cyclists in danger. It's not surprising that cyclists sometimes feel the need to break the rules in order to put some distance between themselves and a carelessly driven motor vehicle.

Personally, I haven't ever jumped a red light. But I will cycle on an empty pavement if it's safer than the road.

 

* UK drivers collectively have over 10 million points on their licenses

Avatar
Matthew Acton-Varian replied to Tom_77 | 3 months ago
5 likes

Tom_77 wrote:

* UK drivers collectively have over 10 million points on their licenses

And that's only the handful of instances when they are caught!

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mattw replied to Tom_77 | 3 months ago
8 likes

How many of those are on the licenses of people using the "Exceptional Hardship" excuse to continue driving at any one time?

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MTB Refugee | 3 months ago
4 likes

Red light means stop. End of discussion.

I cycle more than I drive, but as both a cyclist and a driver I really despair to see cyclists (or drivers) go through red lights.

Every cyclist who goes through red lights provide ammunition for the anti-cycling lobby. It is also illegal and it makes it tough to argue against motorists breaking the law (close passes etc.) if they can constantly refer to law breaking by cyclists.

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the little onion replied to MTB Refugee | 3 months ago
17 likes

"Every driver who goes through red lights provide ammunition for the anti-driver lobby"

 

Fixed that for you. Because collective punishment works for every situation.

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Dicklexic replied to the little onion | 3 months ago
6 likes

Whether you like it or not, a significant number of drivers absolutely WILL tar us all with the same brush, and put ALL cyclists at risk because they see 'some' go through red lights. We can all claim that we do not represent the bad cyclists, but sadly the reality is different for far too many narrow minded drivers.

I have only gone through a red on a few specific occasions (traffic light sensors not detecting cyclists and no other traffic to trigger them), but despite that I have been sworn at by a driver that had just close passed me because "all cyclists go through red lights, and you don’t pay road tax so I don’t give a flying fuck how much space you want!" Okay so he was perhaps an extreme example, but you don’t have to speak to that many drivers to hear some say cyclists don’t deserve the driver’s respect because cyclists don’t follow the rules of the road.

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chrisonabike replied to Dicklexic | 3 months ago
4 likes

Dicklexic wrote:

Whether you like it or not, a significant number of drivers absolutely WILL tar us all with the same brush, and put ALL cyclists at risk because they see 'some' go through red lights. We can all claim that we do not represent the bad cyclists, but sadly the reality is different for far too many narrow minded drivers

....but you don’t have to speak to that many drivers to hear some say cyclists don’t deserve the driver’s respect because cyclists don’t follow the rules of the road.

Unfortunately that is not within my control.  Indeed I've managed to dig out from someone I talked to that they had never actually seen some cyclist behaviour they were moaning about, and their "friend" who reported this may not have seen this more than once (or at all)...

That's how it is with stereotypes and out-grouping.  People will accept the whole thing, and then all they're looking for is evidence (which can be hearsay / "stands to reason...") which positively reinforces this perception.

I'm not denying that some people (any mode) break the rules.  And currently in the UK this may be very salient for cycling - at least in some locations.

In the end changing perception of "others" is usually a very slow business: one relationship (or life change) at a time.  Perhaps you / your loved ones start riding then one day you realise you're / they're one of "them" - but you/they are a normal/good person...

I think it takes both redefining the "problem" (so if there's protected infra / much reduced "conflict" and cycling is clearly a different but legitimate thing) AND redefining the people (cycling is now a normal mainstream activity).  I believe the latter requires the former e.g. networks of convenient safe cycle routes of sufficient quality, with safe storage/parking" as one necessary (though perhaps not sufficient?) condition to occur.

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MTB Refugee replied to the little onion | 3 months ago
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the little onion wrote:

"Every driver who goes through red lights provide ammunition for the anti-driver lobby"

 

Fixed that for you. Because collective punishment works for every situation.

You fixed nothing.

Your opinion and my opinion of cyclists is irrelevant, it sounds like we are both extremely pro-cycle so there is nothing to fix.

What remains is the current culture war between some of the pro-bike and the pro-car/anti-bike lobby. Cyclists who break the law and inflame the anti-cycling muppets are part of the problem.

If everyone abided by the laws of the road, then a lot of the problems that cyclists face would not be problems any more.

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