Cyclists blame “utterly ridiculous bike prices” for brands’ ongoing struggles, after Giant’s sales slashed again; Visma–Lease a Bike’s cursed 2024 continues; Devastated Arsenal fan turns to… Lance Armstrong; Bargain hunting + more on the live blog
SUMMARY
Take a look at Tadej Pogačar's tricked-out Colnago V4Rs... (one bike brand that's definitely not struggling)
> Take a look at Tadej Pogačar’s tricked-out Colnago V4Rs
While we’re on the topic of industry news, Colnago bucks the trend of negative news stories, the Italian bike brand last month reporting that business is booming since it received Abu Dhabi investment, with sales “more than tripled”. That Abu Dhabi investment sounds quite handy, where can I get me some of that?
Visma–Lease a Bike's cursed 2024 continues — Giro d'Italia GC hope Cian Uijtdebroeks follows team's sprinter Olav Kooij in abandoning race through illness
[Zac Williams/SWpix.com]
From 2023’s extraordinary three Grand Tours in a year, numerous Classics and some of the most prestigious week-long stage races, to now in 2024 a cursed spring beset with injuries and crashes (most notably incredibly serious ones involving Jonas Vingegaard and Wout van Aert), leading to a Giro where half your riders are forced to abandon. It’s been a rude awakening for Visma-Lease a Bike this season, god bless Marianne Vos and her perennial success for keeping the victories ticking over.
> Jonas Vingegaard won’t start Tour de France “if he’s not at 100%”, says Visma-Lease a Bike boss
Of course, it’s all relative. Many a team would be ecstatic with Paris-Nice, Tirreno-Adriatico, Omloop Het Nieuwsblad (both the men’s race and women’s), Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne, Dwars door Vlaanderen (both editions), a stage of the Giro, Amstel Gold women’s edition and two stages of the Vuelta Femenina.
Still pretty successful in anyone’s book, but without the major spring victory Van Aert and his superstrong back-up would have hoped (perhaps expected) to finally deliver this year. Crashes, injury and illness hampered Van Aert, Dylan van Baarle, Christophe Laporte and Jan Tratnik at various points during the spring, the team’s bad luck continuing into the Giro, Cian Uijtdebroeks joining Olav Kooij in exiting the race with illness.
A team statement this morning broke the news:
The Giro will have to continue without the biggest smile of the peloton. We regret to announce that Cian Uijtdebroeks is forced to abandon the race. Cian did not feel well the past days and after yesterday’s stage, he fell ill. We wish you a speedy recovery.
With Robert Gesink and Christophe Laporte having already left the race, Kooij and Uijtdebroeks’ illness mean Visma-Lease a Bike are down to four, Edoardo Affini, Tratnik, Attila Valter and Tim van Dijke soldiering on as a quartet.
Our DS Marc Reef responds to Cian’s abandon: ‘This is a huge setback for us. But we still have four riders that are fit and healthy and ready to fight for it.’ pic.twitter.com/yqUqtkwmgL
— Team Visma | Lease a Bike (@vismaleaseabike) May 15, 2024
Arsenal fan takes Manchester City's likely impending title victory well... summons he who shall not be named...
Man City winning the league four times in a row is a serious achievement to be fair, its up there with Lance Armstrong winning seven tours on the bounce
— Marc O’Reachtaire (@o_reachtaire) May 14, 2024
That’ll be in reference to the alleged 115 Financial Fair Play charges against Manchester City, none of which relate to doping, that the club strenuously denies and is fighting. Anyway, good to see football fans taking an interest in cycling…
Bargain hunting
All this talk of bike prices has got some of you sharing your efforts to build a top-class ride for a fraction of the cost.
DISCLAIMER: we’ve called this ‘bargain hunting’… your significant other might question whether spending four figures building a bicycle is an effective penny-saving exercise. Be warned…
First up, Ed “cobbled this together from second hand and some Chinese carbon. 7kg and cost around £1k including di2.”
Si did similar, “Put this together from second hand. Under 7kg and a rapid machine. Well under the extortionate price of new bike prices.”
Jesus Jones: “Got this as a brand new frame, then hit eBay for some NOS Roval 32/50, and an entire DA 9100 groupset. Overall cost — less than a third of an equivalent disc brake setup. Total weight: 6.19kg.”
webbierwrex: “Using the Cyclescheme voucher for parts and some savvy shopping I got a new 12-speed 105 mechanical Super Six Evo with Zipp 303s wheels for £2k. Yes, it’s still a lot of money but it’s a lot of bike too. People complaining about bike prices…maybe don’t buy a brand new bike at full RRP? P.S. I don’t run a car and actually do cycle to my work place.”
Of course, all this discussion is very centred around fast carbon road bikes, there is plenty of fun, utility and value to be had elsewhere and ultimately the joy and practicality of riding a bicycle isn’t limited by whether it’s got 105 or is made of carbon. Ride what you want, when you want, just enjoy it. Preaching to the choir over… but hey, you can’t blame us for wanting to look at some sexy bikes this morning…
Meanwhile in west London...
Deliveroo rider on a penny farthing might be one of the most west London things I’ve ever seen pic.twitter.com/fZF78RShYs
— Ned Donovan | فارس دونوفان (@Ned_Donovan) May 14, 2024
Amid speculation Jeremy Vine might have made a career change, the BBC and Channel 5 presenter confirmed it wasn’t him BUT he has met the penny farthing pedaller before…
“This isn’t me, but I’ve met this distinguished gentleman,” he explained on social media. “I asked him why he was wearing a single black leather glove on his right hand. He said, ‘If champagne is served, it stays colder for longer with the glove.’ Not eccentric at all.”
"If you want to get more people out of cars, you need to offer more": Rail company slammed for banning bikes on trains at peak times, as cyclists brand policy "a step backwards"
Your thoughts on bike prices
The price of bikes and the state of the industry has certainly got the comments section talking, from semantic discussions about the definition of a decent bike, through questions about if more versatile models with wider tyres have ended the need for N+1?
Picking up on a few of the earlier comments about what constitutes, and how much a ‘decent’ or ‘good’ bike willl cost, Bowks suggested: “I think people might have a skewed view on what a decent bike is. Earlier this year, I got a 2023 Defy with 105 Di2 for £2.2k. Am i bothered that the cables aren’t fully internally routed? Nope!”
Patrick9-32: “And that bike is almost certainly better than what £2.2k could buy you 10 years ago as well! Just because the top end moves up doesn’t mean the reasonably priced stuff is getting worse.
“Cyclists really need to take a look in the mirror and ask themselves if the bottom spec Spesh Allez (or seven other big brands equivalent in the same price ballpark) wouldn’t actually do what they need… everything else is vanity unless you are racing for a living, and if you are, someone else is paying for your bike so you don’t have to care what it costs.”
peted76: “It’s not helped that ‘upgrading’ bikes, which was what a lot of people would have done pre the disc revolution which really only took off around Covid time, just isn’t possible for anyone still running rim brakes.. so you’ve a section of people who might have brought a new frame, groupset or wheels.. big purchases.. are left upgrading via the second hand market or making do until the money fairy lands a large wad of available funds in their lap in order to purchase a ‘new bike’ complete. That’s money which has been taken away from the bike industry which would have been floating around in other times.”
Zermattjohn: “The bike industry has sold us the gravel bike as the N+1 killer for about five years. So now we all have the one bike that does everything, why would we be thinking of buying another one? It’s not just the high prices putting people off, it’s the fact we don’t need to buy.”
fwhite181: “I think this is a good point. Road bikes have got ever more ‘hardcore’ (and obscenely expensive) and a lot of riders I know have discovered the joys of a bike that’ll take 35mm+ tyres in winter, 28s in summer, and do pretty much all their riding. It does rather dent the need to have 3 bikes…
“The prohibitive cost of a ‘decent’ new bike isn’t helping. Nor the fact that Decathlon (Van Rysel) have now thoroughly demonstrated that most of the cost of top-flight bikes from ‘big names’ is hype, not necessity. And the groupset market really should’ve matured into a good set of generics by now — the 5800-series 105 was about all the tech most people needed, but we’re now being gouged for one more cog, 10 fewer grammes, microseconds-faster shifting. Please just make good stuff affordable. Shimano’s entire product development cycle seems to be about locking out the patents and blocking competitors, not delivering good value products to customers. Rant over…”
Right on cue, mark1a was on the scene… “There’s no such thing as ‘too many bikes’.”
That’s better, although as perce pointed out, there is such a thing as “too many bikes I really like but can’t afford”…
Life’s a lot more straight forward for NickSprinck… “For me it is a lot more simple, despite their name, Giant don’t sell bikes big enough for me…”
🚨SRAM unveils new Red AXS groupset 🚨
There’s a certain irony given today’s live blog discussion (and some of your comments) that SRAM has this afternoon officially unveiled its new Red AXS groupset which it says, naturally, is “the lightest electronic groupset ever”… oh, and it costs more than most of those “decent” bikes you were all mentioning in the comments…
Stu’s been testing it for a while now and reckons it’s “easily one of the best groupsets out there – if not THE best – thanks to its stunning performance, ergonomics and looks”. You can read his full review here…
And if money really is no object and you’ve been sat there rolling your eyes wondering what all the fuss is about while we’ve been debating the price of bikes, Jamie’s weighed it up against Shimano Dura-Ace R9200 in the battle of the groupset heavyweights… (Or should that be lightweights? You know what I mean)
> 2024 Sram Red AXS vs Shimano Dura-Ace R9200 — Which top-tier road groupset is best?
So, dare I ask, who’s tempted?
Jonathan Milan wins his second stage of this year's Giro with another monster sprint
There’s no stopping the big man…
“He’s too 𝐁𝐈𝐆, he’s too 𝐒𝐓𝐑𝐎𝐍𝐆, he’s too 𝐏𝐎𝐖𝐄𝐑𝐅𝐔𝐋!” 💪
Jonathan Milan shows why he’s in the ciclamino jersey as he dominates the Stage 11 sprint finish at the Giro d’Italia 🚴♂️💨 pic.twitter.com/apjCfYwRYB
— Eurosport (@eurosport) May 15, 2024
Jonathan Milan powered his way to a second stage of this year’s Giro d’Italia, thrashing his way past Tim Merlier in the final 100m. The Lidl-Trek rider has a firm grip on the maglia ciclamino points classification and with stage nine winner Olav Kooij out through illness it would take a brave (or perhaps foolish) person to back against the imposing Italian bagging another stage before the end of the three weeks.
Fabio Jakobsen and Team dsm–firmenich PostNL teammate Tobias Lund Andresen were two of the riders to hit the deck in a high-speed crash in the final kilometre. Thankfully everyone appeared to get back to their feet relatively unscathed, bar some uncomfortable-looking road rash and bruises.
No GC changes on the road, although everyone below the unfortunate Cian Uijtdebroeks takes a step up the leaderboard after the Belgian withdrew this morning due to illness.
BlackBeltBarrister 🤝 road.cc
New Aldi shop plans will "undermine only safe cycle route" in city and leave cyclists "filled with horror" – but supermarket chain says proposals "will promote cycling"
Cyclists blame "utterly ridiculous bike prices" for brands' ongoing struggles, after Giant's sales slashed again
Yesterday, we reported that one of the world’s largest manufacturers of bicycles, Taiwan-based behemoth Giant, had reported a 20 per cent slump in sales in the first quarter of 2024, with profits down 38 per cent as a result. Those financials were in comparison with the same months in 2023 when, you guessed it, the numbers were down on the year previous too.
> Giant sales down 20% and profits slashed by 38% as bike industry challenges continue
It’s not just Giant of course, the story a now-familiar tale for the bike industry in a post-pandemic world, Shimano also reporting a huge fall in sales for the same first quarter a few weeks ago too.
And while it’s worth pointing out that both of the massive names still posted profits during 2023 and the opening months of 2024, albeit significantly reduced, the news has prompted much discussion among our readers and the wider cycling community about everyone’s favourite topic… no, not disc brakes… no, not helmets… no, not mechanical vs electronic groupsets… alright, one of everyone’s favourite topics… the price of bikes.
Giant pointed to the ongoing inventory challenges in Europe and North America for the challenging picture. In very basic terms, pandemic = bike boom, bike boom = brands purchasing more stock to meet demand, pandemic ends and demand drops = less buyers for said stock, less buyers = stock sitting on shelves unsold. In short, not good.
We’ve seen a few surprise sales in recent weeks as a result, brands keen to shift stock. Specialized slashed gravel and mountain bike prices by up to 50 per cent, while Trek launched a major sale on its website too.
It’s to all that context that the comments began rolling in on yesterday’s story about Giant’s finances, and boy did more than a few of you have something to say…
I wonder, anything to do with a decent bike costing £10K?
— Simon Warren (@100Climbs) May 14, 2024
The most commonly made point was something along the lines of ‘bikes are way too expensive, why would I buy another one if I don’t have to?’ N+1 blasphemy but probably a very realistic and sensible position for most of us. The other was that bike brands are misunderstanding what customers want…
“I simply don’t understand”
“a nice bike now is £9k”
“why is no one buying?”
“do we need 13 speed?” https://t.co/CYdjIl14qe
— Stan (@geckobike) May 14, 2024
Dan Birchett: “The equivalent 2024 version of my road bike is £5,400. In 2016, mine was £2,200.”
*Big sigh* (their name, not my comment): “It’s why I’m still on my 2014 BMC. Yeah, it’s rim brakes but the cost of an upgraded bike is prohibitive. I can easily afford the new offerings, but I’m not buying when there’s no value.”
David Williams: “Maybe the bike industry needs to look at reducing the cost of their machines.”
Velo Retro: “I bought a fairly top flight road bike in 1991. Back then it cost around 5 per cent of a decent average salary. I would say that something comparable now, would be nearer 10 per cent. It would be interesting to see some objective data around affordability.”
Rich Harle: “Almost as if pretty much every bike business in the country misjudged the Covid boom and overordered. Several large suppliers going bust, and now Giant struggling too.”
Recycled-Carbon: “I went on a site the other day and saw a bike for 13k. I laughed out loud and shut the site.”
Paul Hilton: “Perhaps they can now start selling bikes without people needing to take out small mortgages for them then? I’d love to get a new one but it’s £5k+ for a decent one and £10k+ for a good one. Ludicrous.”
Robert Marsh: “Utterly ridiculous bike prices now, plus lots of high tech forcing prices ever higher. Sure, some people will pay a huge premium, but not the mass market.”
We could go on, but you get the idea… we haven’t even got to the Facebook comments yet…
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Latest Comments
"All that's required is an to roads policing" - that's a big all... Although no doubt the "idiots just keep coming" aspect does apply: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz9lel2wz93o "Man charged after car crashes through bowling alley" - luckily they only skittled over skittles.
Almost any change to roads and streets is accompanied by a period of heightened danger, and in the UK "look out for cyclists" will need to be learned... practically. And over the time it takes for cyclists to become a regular feature. OTOH once (if...) good designs are in and frequent enough such that drivers encounter them AND the cyclists on them regularly (another big if) I don't think they should be much more difficult than a footway to deal with. These things are all over NL - don't have the collision stats but they should. (NL isn't perfect but collecting info on the safety of designs to feed back into better designs as required is part of the "sustainable safety" philosophy - if they're really a killer I think they'd be altering these.)
I'm in the happy position of agreeing with everybody here! I've never considered a bike with a stand, yet I'm impressed by the ingenuity and adaptability of this axle. I tow a Yak Bob with a Robert Axle, employing my El Cheapo Vitus gravel bike and I just have to be very careful where I stop. Hedges are generally a dead loss, and I seek walls, telegraph poles and signposts and generally lean the widest part of the Bob against it. One very awkward task is removing the two steel pins which lock the trailer arms onto the special mounting slots on the Robert axle, and when you have one out, the sodding weight in the trailer can twist the whole caboodle and bend the Bob fitting before you can get the other out and unhitch. I doubt if a stand would help with that. You can imagine that this combo is a real pain when you have to get it over the bridge at railway stations, and it nearly resulted in Merseyrail nearly parting me and the trailer on the platform from the bike on the train. It's a long story for another time. Another axle example recently featured on here, with a 12mm front axle bearing the Herculean weight limit of a monster American front rack.
This has nothing to do with the type of bike - it's the type of behaviour that's the problem. Banning the sale of such bikes will not curtail the behaviour. They'll just find another type of vehicle and continue to drive dangerously as there's such a lack of enforcement. I'd sooner see them ban the bally. But really, all that's required is an improvement to roads policing.
The EAPC Bill is welcome, but full of holes. What's to stop an overpowered but temporarily limited e-bike being sold and subsequently delimited? This is often a trivial process.
@KiwiMike Yeah, in my over four decades of riding all over Europe I've never 'been for a ride in the countryside'. That must be it. Or, and I know this is a wild concept, you just accept that I just voiced my personal experiences and never missed a kickstand, like I wrote. Anyway, what's the big horror of laying your bike on its side for the very few occasions where there is nothing to lean your bike against?
They may have looked, but did they see?
Ds2025: where they are going wrong is that they are crushing the motorbike rather than the person sat on top of it. If they did the latter this issue would be solved in less than 24 hours.
I came this way today with the car boot sale in operation. There was a marshal at the entrance, who stopped a car turning right across the cycleway as I was approaching. So that certainly works. I think it necessary for the marshal to be there, I couldn't say if the driver would have turned if he hadn't been there but you always have to suspect the worst. Unfortunately there is no marshal at the exit, and there was certainly a car stopped across the cycleway as I was approaching it. But he pulled onto the road before I reached it, and the following car stayed off the cycleway as I went through. Ideally there should have been a marshal there too. On the whole, though, it's a really high standard piece of infrastructure. Just a pity it doesn't extend a bit further.
“absolute carnage” So right! Just look at the bodies piled up, blood running in the gutters and injured people limping away. It's a bit of a problem with a road, delaying some people for minutes at a time: it isn't carnage, let alone 'absolute carnage'. Anyone who exaggerates so ridiculously really shouldn't be allowed to comment in public, unless they want to demonstrate their idiocy to all and sundry.
66 thoughts on “Cyclists blame “utterly ridiculous bike prices” for brands’ ongoing struggles, after Giant’s sales slashed again; Visma–Lease a Bike’s cursed 2024 continues; Devastated Arsenal fan turns to… Lance Armstrong; Bargain hunting + more on the live blog”
The bike industry has sold us
The bike industry has sold us the gravel bike as the N+1 killer for about 5 years. So now we all have the one bike that does everything, why would we be thinking of buying another one? It’s not just the high prices putting people off, it’s the fact we don’t need to buy.
No you see they planned that
No you see they planned that out by only increasing tyre clearance a few mm every year or so. We started out with 38mm gravel bikes, then 42mm ones came along, and now 47mm and 50mm are here. So you gotta upgrade for that. In a few more years it will be 2.1″ mtb tyres and so on.
I think this is a good point.
I think this is a good point. Road bikes have got ever more ‘hardcore’ (and obscenely expensive) and a lot of riders I know have discovered the joys of a bike that’ll take 35mm+ tyres in winter, 28s in summer, and do pretty much all their riding. It does rather dent the need to have 3 bikes…
The prohibitive cost of a ‘decent’ new bike isn’t helping. Nor the fact that Decathlong (Van Rysel) have now thoroughly demonstrated that most of the cost of top-flight bikes from ‘big names’ is hype, not necessity. And the groupset market really should’ve matured into a good set of generics by now – the 5800-series 105 was about all the tech most people needed, but we’re now being gouged for one more cog, 10 fewer grammes, microseconds-faster shifting. Please just make good stuff affordable. Shimano’s entire product development cycle seems to be about locking out the patents and blocking competitors, not delivering good value products to customers. /rantover…
Zermattjohn wrote:
I’m sure mark1a will be along presently…
(Speaking as someone who owns 3 bikes, not one a “road” or “gravel” design…)
chrisonabike wrote:
I’m sure mark1a will be along presently…
(Speaking as someone who owns 3 bikes, not one a “road” or “gravel” design…)— Zermattjohn
There’s no such thing as “too many bikes”
Agreed. Although sadly there
Agreed. Although sadly there is such a thing as ”too many bikes I really like but can’t afford”.
For me it is a lot more
For me it is a lot more simple, despite their name, Giant don’t sell bikes big enough for me
How big are you?!! I’m 6 ft 6
How big are you?!! I’m 6 ft 6 and fit nicely on a TCR XL.
Simpler for me Giant sell
Simpler for me Giant sell their bikes in LBSs that are either too far away to travel to, or in ones I won’t touch with a bargepole.
Consequently I buy other branded bikes
Now this I can understand. I
Now this I can understand. I have 2 Giant dealers within 5km of home. Both sell a mix of city bikes and race bikes. The nearest one I wouldn’t get a race bike from. I just don’t think they know anything about them. The other one, I went to try a TCR (can’t remember which model, a little under 5000 euros), dude in the shop wouldn’t even put pedals on it to let me take it for a spin. I could literally just hold it and look at it. Pathetic.
I think people might have a
I think people might have a skewed view on what a decent bike is. Earlier this year, I got a 2023 Defy with 105 Di2 for £2.2k. Am i bothered that the cables aren’t fully internally routed? Nope!
And that bike is almost
And that bike is almost certainly better than what £2.2k could buy you 10 years ago as well!
Just because the top end moves up doesn’t mean the reasonably priced stuff is getting worse.
Using the cyclescheme voucher
Using the cyclescheme voucher for parts and some savvy shopping I got a new 12 speed 105 mechanical Super Six Evo with Zipp 303s wheels for £2k. Yes, it’s still a lot of money but it’s a lot of bike too. People complaining about bike prices…maybe don’t buy a brand new bike at full RRP?
p.s. I don’t run a car and actually do cycle to my work place.
What these cyclists don’t
What these cyclists don’t understand and is often not mentioned: when things get hard, a lot of people who can’t really afford a new bike but usually would stretch to it, now don’t buy a new bike at all, they don’t drop to a lower cost option, they just don’t buy. People who buy the top end stuff don’t stop buying because tough times don’t affect them. When things get hard, average sale values go up for high value non-essential items like road bikes, luxury watches, new cars etc.
Reducing the prices of the top end stuff would likely not significantly increase sales of those top end items in a recession period, it would just reduce profits.
When people are talking about £1500-3000 being a reasonable price for a top end bike, there is no chance that you can sell them a bike that is currently being sold for £10000 without making a business ending loss.
Re Prices – it’s down to the
Re Prices – it’s down to the obvious: the cycling industry is killing itself.. #pathticpricingfigures
I think tech has much to do
I think tech has much to do with the cost of bikes – why does anyone need 12 gears, or electric shifting or hydraulic brakes on relatively skinny tyres? I’ve stopped now, but my commuter bikes had disc brakes, but there were 100 sets of traffic lights in each direction – that made sense riding in all weathers, and I wore out several front discs. That bike was like Trigger’s broom – only the cranks and major frame components and shifters survived to the end – but that bike cost about £1100 with full cable and hydraulic 105, mudguards and rack and did 30-45 miles a day for years.
Now one has to have tech that was unheard of in top-flight cycling only a few years ago if you want a bike that is ‘decent’. Even relatively modest groupsets cost far more that whole bikes did not long ago: i have two very nice bikes with Dura-ace cable operated gears, rim brakes and alloy wheels. THey brake and change gear perfectly. Sure, I don’t like grey muck and grinding when i brake in the wet, but they work well and new rims every few years or so are not expensive (if I can find a rim brake rim these days)
So whose idea was it to replace ‘tried and tested’ with ‘brutally expensive’ anyway? It seems to have worked while both were still available for a while, but seems to have ridden headlong into a wall now that brutally expensive is the only option. It’s not as if the expensive stuff does anything that the cheaper didn’t; change gear, and stop.
Quote:
I think this is actually part of the same discussion (ok, not helmets). Disc brakes are almost unavoidable now, and they are more expensive that rim brakes – as far as I can tell, the RRP for the disc brake version of a Ultegra Di2 2×12 groupset (R8170) is £500 more than the otherwise identical rim brake groupset (R8150). Similarly, the Di2 version of the 2×12 105 groupset (R7170) is £750 more than the mechanical version. Once the “everyman” groupset, the RRP for a (disc brake, Di2) 105 groupset is now over £1,700 – so that’s almost £2k any you don’t even have a bike!
There are a host of other things too. Off the top of my head, carbon wheels have become more normal (on rim brake bikes, carbon wheels were very much a luxury, given the rims are essentially consumable, and braking performance could be a concern. On disc brake bikes, why not?) And the trend towards aero- and integrated everything, which no doubt requires more assembly time, more proprietary parts, and more R&D (wind tunnels, CFD etc.)
As a result, I think there has become a much more significant gulf, in both price and (perceived) performance, between affordable entry-level bikes, and even what would be considered mid-range bikes, let alone the top end models. When I bought my first, entry-level road bike in 2015(?) it felt like the difference between it and higher end models was probably a few hundred grams of weight and that was about it; now it feels like you would be missing out on a lot more.
OnYerBike wrote:
I don’t think anyone, particularly manufacturers, are paying RRP for groupsets. Manufacturers will be buying via the OEM channel, and in that 105 Di2 example, will be paying well under £1000 for it. Considering this example, https://www.boardmanbikes.com/gb_en/products/2398-slr-8.9-di2-disc-carbon.html at £2800 RRP (anyone with BC or CUK membership can get 8% off this), take off VAT of £467, leaving £2333 net price for the bike. There’ll be a margin for the retailer, a margin for the manufacturer, so leaving much less than £2000 for the total cost of making the bike, frameset, wheels & tyres, cockpit, labour, taxes, etc That doesn’t work if the groupset is £1700.
That’s certainly true (even
That’s certainly true (even as a member of the general public you can easily find it for sale at well below RRP). But I think the point still stands in general. In fact I think your example of Boardman bikes demonstrates the point perfectly.
The very fact that even a 105-equipped Boardman costs £2.8k is the point – Boardman bikes are known for being the sensible, value-for-money option, so that is a “cheap” option – but £2.8k isn’t cheap!
The (rim brake, mechanical 105) SLR 8.9 is £1,200 (the same further discounts would apply) – but that model looks obsolete when compared to the disc brake Di2 version you have linked (the rim brake model hasn’t actually been updated since 2021).
OnYerBike wrote:
That’s a very good point, although there are some cost compromises on that model, such FSA chainset, Tektro brakes, etc. I don’t even really know how Boardman can make that bike for the money, it’s remarkable value. That opens up the other point to make when all the naysayers are whining about how it’s impossible to buy a decent non-BSO bike for a reasonable sum of money these days (“oh the humanity, it’s madness”, on road.cc twice weekly), is that for all the £12k+ superbikes seen, there’s a decent choice of good bikes available from Boardman, Decathlon and others.
mark1a wrote:
Sure, it is in fact possible to buy something decent. But I would guess that a lot of people on this site have already got bikes of a certain level, and so are really complaining about the cost should they need / want to replace / upgrade them. For example, 10 years ago I bought a Canyon with SRAM Force. Despite 10 years of career (and, to a lesser extent, salary) progress, replacing that with something equivalent would feel less affordable to me now than the original did then. Or, as I remarked in a recent review – new SRAM Apex isn’t much less than I paid for Force 10 years ago… and that came with a Canyon attached.
Yeah. Glad I opted out of all
Yeah. Glad I opted out of all this many years ago. The very traditional niche components I use are expensive too, but they last, and will hopefully be made a long time yet.
I bought a hydraulic disc
I bought a new hydraulic disc brake bike for under £500 only two months ago.
You can buy a set of Shimano
You can buy a set of Shimano MTB style brake leavers and callipers (front and rear) for £50. I know this because I upgraded my folding bike to Shimano Hydraulic.
The excuse of Hydro Disks being the reason for expensive bikes is a load of rubbish. Let’s be generous and allow the manufacturers £50 uplift in prices between rim and disk brakes.
Prices are stupid and stupid
Prices are stupid and stupid people pay stupid money for what is essentially a fashion accessory or bragging rights.
The manufacturers are constantly ‘innovating’ but it’s ‘innovating’ for lock in, not for technology improvement.
There is no reason that adding electronics to a groupset should make the groupset more expensive by several hundreds £. There is no reason why ‘electronics’ can’t be universal and tuned in a standard way but SRAM/Shimano/Campag all do it differently.
The whole industry aims for the shiny high spend market instead of going for the lower end market and selling bikes that people can use day to day and not be worried about it being nicked, becoming obsolete because only 500 with those seat tubes were made.
The industry is in a mess but it’s a mess of their own making.
You want SRAM, Shimano and
You want SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo to all use the same electronic signals? Why? It’s not like their mechanical shifters are compatible, and furthermore, the hydraulic brake systems are different.
KDee wrote:
I think that is a very good point, but there really is no good reason why they couldn’t make the systems compatible.
Almost every ANT+ or Bluetooth compatible sensor is compatible with every other receiving unit. You can use a Garmin radar sensor on a Wahoo head unit for instance. SRAM AXS shifters are bluetooth at least for the sensor part of it and compatible with most head units.
All it takes is for one of the manufacturers to publish their protocol as an open standard, but it doesn’t suit their business model so everything is proprietary. Hardly surprising, but still dissapointing.
It’s a software thing. WIth
It’s a software thing. WIth mechanical anything it’s difficult to get them to interoperate becase you need to have the same physical dimensions and gear/pull ratios. WIth electronics, if they all used the same protocol e.g. Send 32 to go up one gear, send 33 to go down a gear, send 44 to go to 4th cog, 45 to fifth cog etc. it wouldn’t matter who’s shifter was on the bike or who’s derailleur.
I’m stuck with SRAM on one of my bikes. I love the hydraulic brakes but the mechanical shifting is sh*t (I’ll never buy SRAM again). If I could change just the rear derailleur for a Shimano one I would but as it is mechanical, I have to change the levers.
Mr Hoopdriver wrote:
Unfortunately, Shimano don’t make it easy to work with their Di2 wire protocols.
Here’s an interesting piece about reverse engineering it: https://hackaday.com/2019/03/26/reverse-engineering-shimano-bike-electronics/
The github repository doesn’t seem to exist anymore – I don’t know if it’s just been moved or if Shimano got a bit arsey about it.
hawkinspeter wrote:
Surely not.
The annoying thing to me is that as soon as ‘electronic’ is added, it adds massively to the price and makes things more proprietary. I’m struggling to find one, but nearly every rear derailleur uses the same fitting, parallelogram and jockey wheel design style whether that is electronic or cable so why does a servo motor and control electronics add so much ? It’s just as bad with the newer Chinese manufacturers. Their electronic systems are still costed at what I would consider a premium price over their mechanical version.
Mr Hoopdriver wrote:
The price of any item is not always a relationship with its direct input costs (materials, labour, distribution, etc). The R&D costs must be recovered too, amortised over sales. The development cost of a mechanical derailleur will be far less, spread over many more sales. Compare the higher development cost of electronic shifting systems, with less units sold to recover.
Mr Hoopdriver wrote:
It’s because they can get away with it.
The advantage to them of going proprietary is that they can patent it and then prevent others from making compatible products by threatening to sue them for infringement.
Wow, do you think everything
Wow, do you think everything should cost exactly what you want it to cost?
There are definitely
There are definitely compatible derailers from China. That said, if you’re having trouble with your rear derailleur, its not tuned or you just a bent hanger.
A mess of their own making;
A mess of their own making; and one has no sympathy for them. Far too much centrered on the performance/ race sector of the market – when the majority of cyclists aren’t. What works for Tadej, Tom or Demi is a fat lot of use to Great Auntie Doris riding to the village hall or the local shops.
It’s good to see a few You Tube channels eschewing the modern high tech, and embracing what they have…..Friction shifters for example.
SRAM Apex is outstanding for
SRAM Apex is outstanding for the money, as is Tiagra. What are you talking about?
Presumably RCC will be doing
Presumably RCC will be doing a piece on this…?
“London transport: Call for ban of ‘floating’ bus stops”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-69001698
Yeah, saw that one when
Yeah, saw that one when trawling the news page. Strange that the Beeb open this article up to commenting, when so few other news articles are. Almost like they know it’ll become a seething mass of anti-cycling hysteria – and looking at some of the comments, they got their wish.
It seems a common thing for
It seems a common thing for the BBC news to only open up comments on articles that get the public’s backs up…e.g. when reporting in quick succession, separately, all the energy companies ‘record profits’. It’s almost like there is an agenda to widen the divide.
A little more (not much
A little more (not much deeper) in comments over on:
https://road.cc/content/news/government-considering-ban-floating-bus-stops-308309
Not sure exactly what road.cc would cover though? (Punch and Judy comments, probably – but there are people having nuanced discussions about this e.g. I believe RNIB has been working others to have a reasoned look at solutions. Be great if they could find what if anything that has suggested, as a counterpoint to “fighting over scraps”).
Ack.
Ack.
Did realise there was a piece already. 😀
Would be interesting if there was a sensible analysis of the NFB’s clip on Twitter.
mitsky wrote:
The government: “We are going to do absolutely nothing to move towards slowing climate change in any way. Please continue to consume as much as possible or the system will literally fall apart around us.”
Gammons in the comments of every article they don’t agree with: “But disastrously the Whitehall blob and woke political class has surrendered to the aggressive eco agenda and lobby so now we all have to suffer the consequences of such activism which only suits a gobby minority.”
Psychos inspired by the
Psychos inspired by the social media or just psychos.
Nice. Russia’s got Putin,
Nice. Russia’s got Putin, France has got the scum who murdered the prison guards yesterday, and we’ve got these delightful characters.
Quite. Mustn’t grumble…
Quite. Mustn’t grumble…
Cyclists really need to take
Cyclists really need to take a look in the mirror and ask themselves if the bottom spec Spesh Allez (or 7 other big brands equivalent in the same price ballpark) wouldn’t actually do what they need… everything else is vanity unless you are racing for a living, and if you are, someone else is paying for your bike so you don’t have to care what it costs.
Last bike I purchased at the
Last bike I purchased at the beginning of COVID lockdown for the reduced price of £750 ..I actively downgraded it from R8000 gearset to R7000 when a certain online retailer started to shift old stock. I got some money back and lost no functionality whatsoever.
Utterly irrelevant point
Utterly irrelevant point because the Allez is vastly more expensive than it used to be too…
So bike sales are down
So bike sales are down recently compared to previous years, almost like everyone bought the bikes they wanted 3-4 years ago.
Can’t think why, can you ?
I have to agree. Limited
I have to agree. Limited supply & high demand was interpreted as a new normal for bike manufacturers. They invested heavily in capacity. It was a blip. Add to that the recent stream of innovation (disc brakes, electronic gears, tubeless tyres), making new bikes more expensive and older bikes obsolete. Who wants to fork out £5k, knowing the next best thing will make your new steed worthless??
“I wonder, anything to do
“I wonder, anything to do with a decent bike costing £10K?”
That’s just veblen goods pricing. A very decent bike is much less than half that. or are we at a point where expectations of ‘decent’ now includes min Ultegra Di2 and carbon wheels and integrated bar and stems?
Just having full carbon frames and forks plus discs puts the prices up over where things were 10 years ago. The only reason to pay £10k is keeping up with an image or something like that?
Quite. A couple of grand or
Quite. A couple of grand or less will get you a very, very decent bike.
Well, If we take a Shimano
Well, If we take a Shimano 105 class alloy bike from 2020 to now we see a near doubling in price. All pricepoints have been affected
bike24 are offering aluminium
bike24 are offering aluminium bikes with 105 for under 2k euros.
Sure if you aren’t comparing
Sure if you aren’t comparing a 2020 mechanical 105 bike to a new mechanical 105 bike
Bike pricing doubled in 4
Bike pricing doubled in 4 years? That’s just not true across a representative cross-section of the market at any price level. Yes they’ve gone up but nothing like that much.
In 2017 I bought a full
In 2017 I bought a full carbon framed bike with discs for £999…. The only compromise was Tiagra not 105.
Bike inflation is newer than 10 years…
It’s not helped that
It’s not helped that ‘upgrading’ bikes, which was what a lot of people would have done pre the disc revolution which really only took off around covid time, just isn’t possible for anyone still running rim brakes.. so you’ve a section of people who might have brought a new frame, groupset or wheels.. big purchases.. are left upgrading via the second hand market or making do until the money fairy lands a large wad of available funds in their lap in order to purchase a ‘new bike’ complete. That’s money which has been taken away from the bike industry which would have been floating around in other times.
When I returned to racing in
When I returned to racing in 2017, I bought a low-end carbon 105 bike for £800, then splashed out on a Merckx with etap for £2.5k at the end of the season. Yes, the current crop is better, but no way am I going to pay current prices for a bike with a seriously ugly current groupset.
I don’t think they thought
I don’t think they thought this video through. Looks like a good reuse of underused space
https://youtu.be/bhgRd6f5d3c?si=bA_GHPZQKO6tB-R4
My bicycle is well now in it
My bicycle is well now in it’s second decade and the plan is to go with it as much as possible. It is though quite versatile, and I am always open to parts upgrades, usually used where there are some good deals. Yes it is super slow, it was super slow when bought too, but it is sturdy and if you aren’t paid to ride, I don’t see the reason to buy an expensive bike.
Bikes are so much better for
Bikes are so much better for the money now. My $12k Seven from 2006 has been relegated to lifelong trainer duty after buying a $5k Domane that’s a significantly better bike. Also, a cheap road bike was $750 in 2005 and I’m amazed that there are still road bikes under $1000 nearly 20yrs later and the newer version is a much better bike than that $750 bike in 2005
Veganpotter wrote:
My 2014 felt Z5, was 8.2kg, came with shimano 105 (10 speed at the time) £1500. Absolute joy to ride. What carbon frame 10 speed bike can you get for that money now?
wycombewheeler wrote:
10 years on, this for £100 more and better brakes:
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/road-bike-ncr-cf-tiagra-blue/_/R-p-332106
“Nor the fact that Decathlon
“Nor the fact that Decathlon (Van Rysel) have now thoroughly demonstrated that most of the cost of top-flight bikes from ‘big names’ is hype, not necessity.”
Read this above. It’s not hype, it’s commercial reality that as soon as you have a retail or distrbutor margin (or both) prices have to go up to make that work.
If you want the only bikes you can buy to come from massive retailers who can operate on supermarket style margins with greater buying power and lower route to market costs than the vast majority of the industry – sure. Decathlon really are an outlier and that’s how they’re replacing smaller retailers and brands, just like CRC and Wiggle did. Be careful what you wish for (and I’m not saying they’re not good products, Decathlon are very good at what they do – too good in some ways).
Top end bike costs have gone
Top end bike costs have gone up significantly since covid and although there has been cost inflation if you look at the differential in bike prices you can see that some bike manufacturers are engaged in price gouging. An example of this is the Trek Madone SLR6 Gen 7 RRP €8,199 euro and the SLR7 Gen 7 RRP €10,999. The only difference between the two is the Groupset – 105 Di2 and Ultegra Di2. The difference in price between the two groupsets is a fraction of the €2,800 charged. Then there is the SLR9 with Dura Ace and a RRP of €14,699. It has slightly better wheels, a different saddle and the groupset. The cost differential for these does not total €3,700. Bike manufacturers might not be making huge profit margins but I would suspect that its as much to do with the amount of money spent on sponsorship and advertising than any recent increase in manufacturing costs.