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"More than primary encourages an undertake": Footballer-turned-driving instructor Ashley Neal questions cyclist's positioning (+ concerning police response); Bigham the Bounty basher?; London's most dangerous borough for collisions + more on the live blog

Friday at last! Dan Alexander is here for your final live blog of the week

SUMMARY

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04 November 2022, 16:52
Have a good weekend!

Have a good weekend everybody... we look forward to welcoming you back to the live blog on Monday... but for now it's time for bikes and a couple of beers...

04 November 2022, 16:14
Anyone fancy a trip to Mexico?

I'm sure Phil won't mind if a hundred or so of us come visiting...

04 November 2022, 15:43
Wout van Aert (and possibly Peter Sagan) sign up for Vincenzo Nibali's pro cyclist FIFA tournament

Wout van Aert has reportedly joined the growing list of WorldTour stars to be paying €50 for the chance to win the €1,000 prize for whoever wins the big FIFA showdown on December 15. Peter Sagan is mentioned in the hashtags too so we wonder if you'll finally see him get a third win in 2022... (sorry, Peter, it was an open goal)...

04 November 2022, 15:20
France's first funerals using a bicycle-hearse
04 November 2022, 15:02
EU proposal to require bicycle parking in every new building takes "major legislative step forward"
EU flag 2

Interesting news from the European Cyclists' Federation that there has been a "major step forward" with EU member states supporting a proposal to require bicycle parking in every new and renovated residential and non-residential building.

Member states gave support to a revision of the Energy Performance of Buildings Directive (EPBD). Although the wording of the revision does include the caveat that for residential buildings they would only be required to create "as many spaces as appropriate" if it is deemed unfeasable during the building process.

The European Cyclists' Federation "welcome many elements of the council position but hold the view that it must be further improved". 

"Member states' get-out clauses are too wide, 'average user capacity' is not an adequate criterium and provisions on parking space for non-standard bicycles and charging infrastructure for e-bikes are absent," the Federation added.

04 November 2022, 14:53
Reading town centre cycle hub receives approval
Cycling hub Reading (Reading Borough Council)

A secure bike parking facility is to be opened in Reading town centre with the aim of reducing thefts. The borough council has approved the project, to replace the former Primark shop in West Street with 82 parking spaces for bikes. It will also have a maintenance station and bike loan scheme. There was no word on expansion plans, however, if demand exceeds the near-100 spaces available.

The BBC reports the scheme was unanimously approved at a meeting of the council's planning committee and will be open seven days a week.

"Particularly with the development of electric bikes there's a real need to offer a facility that can offer much greater security than is currently available," cabinet member for transport Tony Page said.

04 November 2022, 13:34
A tale of two news reports...

Just one more Panorama-related post... it's been that kind of week...

04 November 2022, 13:12
Not ANOTHER helmet debate...
2022 S-Works Evade 3 helmet - Mips logo.jpg

Fighting talk from Mips this morning...

The Multi-directional Impact Protection System has defended the efficacy of its helmet safety system, saying that its test methods meet the highest scientific standards and that its results are based on the most realistic head form currently available.

Mips says that results from two of the key head forms used in helmet safety testing both show its system to be effective in protecting against brain injury and, in a reference to Kask, it says "any reference to WG11 as a self-contained test method for rotational motion is false and misleading".

Read more here...

04 November 2022, 12:50
More of your comments...

Plenty of healthy discussion in the comments...

stonojnr: "The driver was a total ass to undertake, but Neal is making a fair point on the riders positioning."

ChrisB200SX: "A close pass is a close pass, regardless of which side of you it is on and where you are positioned on the road. Road positioning does not encourage a close pass."

OnYerBike: "From the cyclist's own commentary in the video, I get the impression that their positioning was primarily designed to prevent an unsafe overtake. If that is the objective, then positioning oneself in the middle of the available space would seem to be the optimal position. In that sense, the cyclist is further to the right than I would have recommended"

BalladOfStruth: "I don't think Ashley is a bad guy, I think he genuinely wants to improve the standard of driving and is generally positive towards cycling. It's just that, being from a 'car-centric' world/profession, he tends to look at car vs bike incidents a little too much from the perspective of driver convenience and therefore does put out some pretty shit cycling takes occasionally."

Car Delenda Est: "The issue here is caused by bad driving, not riding."

cmedred: "Sadly, Ashley asks the right question: 'Just hold back?'' Only it shouldn't be a question. It's the proper driving advice for this road. From the looks of it, no motorist should be going more than 15 or 20 mph, if that, given it's a heavy residential area and God only knows who or what could pop out between all those parked cars. And if you're going that slow, it's not really going to slow you down much before the cyclist clears the zone of congestion. Ashley's question should have been: 'What's the rush?' And his answer should have been: 'Just hold back.' What kind of driving does he teach his students anyway?"

04 November 2022, 12:09
Andrew Feather's 5.39kg Cannondale SuperSix Evo Hi Mod Hill Climb Bike

04 November 2022, 11:40
London cyclists most likely to be involved in a collision in Westminster, Met Police data suggests
London cyclist & moto & bus (CC BY 2.0 Waterford_Man via Flickr)

[ 📷: CC BY 2.0 Waterford_Man]

The Evening Standard reports the London borough of Westminster is the most dangerous place to ride a bike in the English capital, having analysed Metropolitan Police collision figures. Of course the data only counts recorded collisions and injuries, but the number of collisions involving a person riding a bicycle has risen from 150 in 2017 to 437 in 2021.

A total of 307 incidents have already been recorded between January and August 2022. The Standard's Miriam Burrell reports incidents were most frequent in Westminster over the past six years, with the exception of 2018 when the most were recorded in Southwark.

Westminster Bridge Security Barrier (CC licensed by David Holt via Flickr).jpg

[📷: CC BY 2.0 David Holt]

So far this year 40 collisions have been recorded in Westminster, up from 30 in 2020 and 38 in 2021. "Westminster is coming up constantly as top for walking and cycling collisions," Healthy Streets campaigner Clare Rogers told the daily newspaper.

"You can say that it's partly because so many people walk and cycle in central London but it’s not an excuse for Westminster City Council, who have been notoriously backward for putting in cycling infrastructure. Ultimately this is about cycling infrastructure."

04 November 2022, 10:42
Dan Bigham is happy to see the back of Bounty

Don't think we didn't see this, Dan...

Dan Bigham Bounty

 

Although, knowing Bigham, it's probably for aero reasons, let's be honest — anyone got the CdA of a Bounty or are we going to have to take a tub of festive treats to the wind tunnel?

04 November 2022, 08:47
"More than primary encourages an undertake": Footballer-turned-driving instructor Ashley Neal questions cyclist's positioning

The son of former Liverpool and England full-back Phil Neal, Ashley — who had a brief playing career himself and now works as a driving instructor, uploading videos to YouTube on all things road safety — has done another video on cycling. So, we thought we'd take a look to see if it's anything like the last couple that have come to our attention...

> "I wholeheartedly disagree with his approach" – YouTube driving instructor Ashley Neal on CyclingMikey

> Footballer-turned-driving instructor Ashley Neal divides opinion with use of horn in overtaking video

This one's all about primary position (or riding in the centre of the lane) something Rule 72 of the Highway Code suggests should be adopted:

On quiet roads or streets – if a faster vehicle comes up behind you, move to the left to enable them to overtake, if you can do so safely.

In slower-moving traffic – when the traffic around you starts to flow more freely, move over to the left if you can do so safely so that faster vehicles behind you can overtake.

At the approach to junctions or road narrowings where it would be unsafe for drivers to overtake you.

Clearly in the video too where there is the danger of car doors flying open, or something or someone suddenly emerging from between parked vehicles, it is suitable to ride away from the left. It seems the cyclist thinks any driver overtaking here would cause danger, so they adopt primary position to discourage such a manoeuvre... only to be undertaken... something Neal says wasn't helped by their positioning being too far to the right of the available road space...

"Now, there's no way in the world the motorist should have even thought about overtaking the cyclist in that situation," Neal began. Cool, job done, let's all pack up for the day...

The YouTube driving instructor then explains the cyclist needed to stay out the door zone which doesn't leave enough room for any motorist to overtake safely, with a 1.5m gap...

But what about the cyclist's "poor positioning"? Neal then asks, suggesting they were too far away from the cars, which might have encouraged the "stubbornness" of the driver to kick in and force the overtake.

"I'm all for keeping positive and maybe commanding other road users at certain times, but why go so far? Why go all the way into the oncoming traffic lane?"

Neal then argues the positioning also took away their "escape route" back to the left and adds: "If I were on the bike I probably would have positioned near, or on or just over, the centre line of the road and if the other vehicle behind had decided to come past I would have slowed it down, tucked it in to the left a little bit, allowed the situation to clear and then got on with my day..."

Thoughts? Should the emphasis simply be on not dangerously over/undertaking? Not too sure about the merits of "tucking it" into the door zone just because an impatient motorist has to get past but hey, I'm not a driving instructor...

04 November 2022, 09:41
But what about the police response?

Now for BY FAR the worst bit of this whole episode... the police response...

Good morning

Thank you for your submission

This has been viewed and reviewed

Whilst we appreciate that the road surface can be less than suitable for cyclists and it is safer to keep a distance from parked cars, cycling in the opposite carriageway is A) dangerous, and B) inconsiderate to oncoming traffic

Whilst the other vehicle should not have undertaken you (they have been written to with regards to this) your actions left them few other choices

Give me strength...  

Neal commented: "I disagree strongly with this, holding back and waiting is always an option".

04 November 2022, 09:50
Your thoughts

Mungecrundle: "To be clear. The issue here is really not about the cyclist's road position, it is about a motorist in too much of a hurry, determined to get past, with no care or attention to anything or anyone appearing from between the parked cars."

wycombewheeler: "I agree entirely 1) there was not enough space to overtake 2) the cyclist correctly stays out of the door zone 3) the driver is wrong 4) the cyclist positions so far to the right, they enable the undertake. Riding in the centre of the space ensures there is no room on either side for the overtake/undertake."

HoarseMann: "Ashley thought the cyclist should have been riding near to the white line. He didn't consider that the strong position in the centre of the oncoming lane was probably to deter oncoming drivers from ploughing on through before the cyclist had completed the overtake of the parked cars.

"He does, generally, have good advice to give and is broadly respectful of vulnerable road users' rights. However, his lack of experience in dealing with bad drivers when cycling shows through when he tries to pass comment on situations like this. He's also not immune to dropping the odd cycling fallacy here and there.

"But by far the worst bit about this video is the response from the police, who failed to take any action against the driver (other than reminding them not to drive dangerously) and blamed the cyclist for following the Highway Code!"

04 November 2022, 09:29
"You're on camera" is associated with poor road use... apparently

Another aspect of Neal's video comes near the end when he addresses the cyclist's warning to the driver attempting a dangerous undertake "you're on camera", which the driving instructor suggests is a line "often associated, for me, with poor road behaviour".

Ashley Neal primary positioning video (screenshot Ashley Neal/YouTube)

Not simply a warning to a driver to not do something dangerous?

"When they get this mindset of trying to capture something so they can maybe put it on YouTube it just creates more problems...and this is something I feel is strong in this clip."

Right, I'm going to get back to enjoying Neal's back catalogue of clicky 'road fail' videos on YouTube... wait a minute...

Dan is the road.cc news editor and joined in 2020 having previously written about nearly every other sport under the sun for the Express, and the weird and wonderful world of non-league football for The Non-League Paper. Dan has been at road.cc for four years and mainly writes news and tech articles as well as the occasional feature. He has hopefully kept you entertained on the live blog too.

Never fast enough to take things on the bike too seriously, when he's not working you'll find him exploring the south of England by two wheels at a leisurely weekend pace, or enjoying his favourite Scottish roads when visiting family. Sometimes he'll even load up the bags and ride up the whole way, he's a bit strange like that.

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99 comments

Avatar
LeadenSkies replied to Flintshire Boy | 2 years ago
4 likes

Hmmmm and yet not 20 mins before you posted that, I had even volunteered elsewhere on this thread that some of my past near misses may have been my fault. Balanced  discussion is great but balance is required from both sides, and those involved in a balanced discussion usually admit that others may hold an equally valid but differing viewpoint on matters subjective.  Not sure how your rule book above demonstrates your balance?

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Hirsute replied to Flintshire Boy | 2 years ago
3 likes

Are you a goldfish?
Do you remember anything you post from yesterday, the day before, last week?
I'd say think back to some recent posts you have made. (Not that I hold any hope)

1 there is more than one person who controls your login
2 your posts vary depending on your medication
3 you post for shits and giggles

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AlsoSomniloquism replied to Flintshire Boy | 2 years ago
4 likes

At least he will discuss and defend his side. You normally drop flyby insults at the site or the vast majority of posters and bugger off again for a few days.

I noticed the other day you mentioned "Old Age" which was a shock as I had actually mentally positioned you between 11 and 14 with the fake swearing and excessively over the top bad spelling and formatting. 

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The Accountant replied to AlsoSomniloquism | 2 years ago
0 likes

This is not the truth I think. The difference between Mr Neal and Mr Mikey van Erp is that Mikey pretends he is performing some kind of public service while sneakily coining in the cash from creating conflicts. He is a completely unskilled person without any talents whatsoever, and why anyone would look up to this man is a mystery to me.

Mr Neal is different. He is up front in that his videos are informational and that people are free to disagree or agree as much as they like, but he is an advanced driving expert and so is a good authority on his subject. So therefore why should he not be entitled to earn from his expertise?

Other people on this forum today have also noted Mr Neal's evenhandedness on the subject and that his knowledge of roadcraft is excellent. I just think you don't like him because you have an odd and extreme opinion about non-cycling traffic on the roads.

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AlsoSomniloquism replied to The Accountant | 2 years ago
3 likes

I would prefer someone who is proven not able to drive a motorvehicle to the laws of the land and to the detriment of safety to be caught and punished, preferably before they killed someone. For this benefit, I would actually prefer all drivers to have to re-take tests every 10 years as there seems to be many who do not know the Highway code since they recieved their license. If this was happening, roads might already be safer. 

As for your other comments, just remember, CM would't even have a channel if people followed the law so surely they are the ones to blame if he is earning any money.

And you have an odd opinion that car deaths and ksi's should be accepted.
 

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BalladOfStruth replied to AlsoSomniloquism | 2 years ago
3 likes

AlsoSomniloquism wrote:

And you have an odd opinion that car deaths and ksi's should be accepted.
 

I think he was suggesting we actually copy some of the worst contries in the world for road safety because they're "growing economies".

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HoarseMann replied to The Accountant | 2 years ago
2 likes

The difference I think is small, but CM is far more skilled on the detail and application of the law surrounding mobile phone use in cars - a subject matter expert.

AN has a broader remit and an approach of avoiding reporting to the police, which would be understandable if your police force was not competent at dealing with third party reporting of incidents.

Both are valid approaches. However, I think AN would do more good if he tried to involve the police, it is after all their job and if their service needs to improve, he has a platform to shame them into action. But this would take more effort, focus and determination - qualities that CM has in spades.

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chrisonabike replied to AlsoSomniloquism | 2 years ago
2 likes

To be fair to Ashley I doubt he's spent a lot of time hanging around a cycling forum, what with a business to run and videos to produce.  (Like it or not but if you want to make some coin / establish yourself putting out "content" is probably increasingly "a part of the job").  I'm actually a little surprised he pops up on here.  While I can only speculate on his motivations he doesn't have to!

As for listening to some odd voices on here - like most motorists he's probably going to go with what he recognises - which is a driving perspective.  And some of the posters put forth a certain "common knowledge ain't it - I know because I drive" viewpoint.  (Whether out of belief or just to provoke, Ashley's probably not going to know or care).

I'm pleased he's actually got some interest in cycling / makes a point of reinforcing the rules around careful driving around cyclist for whatever reason.  Even though I happen to disagree with some of his views on this.  EDIT - "Little beep" and some of his comments about doubling up and overtaking etc [1] [2]. Yes - it's a bit sad that we should consider it a "bonus" for drivers to have an awareness of other road users / actually follow the rules, but here we are.

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Hirsute | 2 years ago
4 likes

L’art de se défendre à bicyclette

https://twitter.com/davidguenel/status/1588425815661780993

//pbs.twimg.com/media/FgoI56OXkAE0NlQ?format=jpg&name=medium)

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eburtthebike | 2 years ago
6 likes

EU proposal to require bicycle parking in every new building takes "major legislative step forward"

That's the trouble with those foreign johnnies; years behind us.

Thank god we've left.yes

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Jem PT | 2 years ago
2 likes

I've riden that road many times (Lower Green Road round the back of Sandown Park in Esher). If you take 'proper' primary position it's not wide enough for cars to pass, but if you stay in the door zone cars will and do pass.

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Hirsute | 2 years ago
2 likes

Saw my dentist at lunchtime, although he was in his car and I was on my bike.

He has wing cameras ?!

Not sure how that works, but I did wonder afterwards, if he gets BSOD, does he have to power off the car ?!

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mattw | 2 years ago
2 likes

I enjoyed the articile headline:

London cyclists most likely to be involved in a collision in Westminster, Met Police data suggests

Yep. Aberdonian cyclists unlikely to top the lists in Westminster...

 

 

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Rendel Harris replied to mattw | 2 years ago
6 likes

mattw wrote:

I enjoyed the articile headline:

London cyclists most likely to be involved in a collision in Westminster, Met Police data suggests

Yep. Aberdonian cyclists unlikely to top the lists in Westminster...

I can't recall which comedian it was I saw years ago who said (to a London audience), "Statistics show that you are actually far more likely to be murdered in London than you are in New York." There was something of a shocked silence and he said, "You know why that is, don't you? You don't live in New York."

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Hirsute replied to Rendel Harris | 2 years ago
1 like

Was it James Cordon ripping off Ricky Gervais ?

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Rendel Harris replied to Hirsute | 2 years ago
2 likes

hirsute wrote:

Was it James Cordon ripping off Ricky Gervais ?

Nah, long time ago before those guys were even famous. Such are the vagaries of memory that I can remember that it was at the Banana Cabaret club in Balham and I can remember which mates I was with but for the life of me I can't picture the comedian!

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Flintshire Boy replied to Rendel Harris | 2 years ago
0 likes

.

LOL! Old age, eh?! Join the club!

.

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belugabob replied to mattw | 2 years ago
0 likes

Yes, this happens all of the time.
I can only assume that the 'journalists' responsible, do not read their copy back to themselves, nor have a competent colleague proof read it for them.

"Let's eat, Grandma!" has a completely different meaning, without the comma.

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VIPcyclist | 2 years ago
1 like

Neil correctly recognised the poor undertake and then proceeded to use the old 'what-aboutery' trick to blame the victim. I use it all the time and my wife calls me Mr CLINT.

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Daveyraveygravey | 2 years ago
1 like

The undertaker seemed to take a long time to complete the undertake, that in itself is wrong, putting both parties at more risk.

I wouldn't cycle that far to the right; if a driver really is going to overtake, I want them to do it on the "proper" side of the road, not my inside.  I would be to the right of the centre line, so in the opposite carriageway, but not almost in the gutter on the far side.

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IanMSpencer replied to Daveyraveygravey | 2 years ago
1 like

I think there were some inaudible verbals from the driver.

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Velo-drone | 2 years ago
8 likes

I'm sure the police also conveyed to the driver that driving in the opposite carriageway is A) dangerous, and B) inconsiderate to oncoming traffic .... didn't they?

On encountering the parked cars, the driver should have turned round and found another route rather than dangerously and inconsiderately travelling along the opposite carriageway to pass them, surely?

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stonojnr | 2 years ago
2 likes

The driver was a total ass to undertake, but Neal is making a fair point on the riders positioning.

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hutchdaddy replied to stonojnr | 2 years ago
0 likes

Fair, but irrelevant point.

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Rendel Harris | 2 years ago
2 likes

Bit of an old photograph of Westminster Bridge there; this year, after far too long, the anti-terrorist barrier has been moved out to the right to provide a cycle lane. It's far from ideal, being too narrow and with no protection from the pavement, so at busy times the tourists just walk in there, but it's better than nothing.

As for Westminster being the most dangerous borough, I'm quite surprised; I find it no worse than anywhere else and considerably better than its neighbours in Kensington and Chelsea where, notoriously, the council have not installed a single yard of segregated cycling provision on the 125 miles of roads under their stewardship. It would be interesting to see the ratio of collisions to cyclist numbers in each borough.

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S13SFC | 2 years ago
5 likes

Shit bit of driving and a shit bit of riding.

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ride2smile replied to S13SFC | 2 years ago
1 like

My thoughts exactly.

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Hirsute | 2 years ago
1 like

https://twitter.com/azb2019/status/1588456317429374977

Critique needed of this reckless cyclist.

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Bungle_52 replied to Hirsute | 2 years ago
1 like

Interesting that all the comments I read were against the motorist.

I entirely agree that extra care should be taken around youngsters but I wonder if the response would be the same for an adult.

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BalladOfStruth replied to Bungle_52 | 2 years ago
0 likes

Bungle_52 wrote:

Interesting that all the comments I read were against the motorist.

I entirely agree that extra care should be taken around youngsters but I wonder if the response would be the same for an adult.

Read down a little further.

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