Anti-LTN Tory accused of hypocrisy over support for al fresco dining scheme; TikTok star in hot water for riding with pet dog strapped on his back; Polite bike thief told where to go; Jeremy Vine vs cabby; TTs back on next month + more on the live blog

mdavidford wrote:

...

Except it's a ski slope, not a ski jump. ....

And it's DOOR mirrors, FFS!

Captain Badger wrote:

mdavidford wrote:

...

Except it's a ski slope, not a ski jump. ....

And it's DOOR mirrors, FFS!

Yeah - OK - so I just wanted to give everyone the mental image of the peloton attempting to struggle up a ski jump.

mdavidford wrote:

....

Yeah - OK - so I just wanted to give everyone the mental image of the peloton attempting to struggle up a ski jump.

Yeah I know, just being me, sorry couldn't resist

wtjs wrote:

I interpret a 'helmet nazi' as someone deploying verbal or physical violence against a cyclist not wearing a helmet. I don't think writing forcefully in favour of helmets qualifies. Fortunately, another cyclist not wearing a helmet doesn't affect me, although I find the omission barmy. Wearing them entails no detriment to anyone but those worried about their hair, and a helmet could be highly beneficial.

Is it equally barmy for pedestrians crossing the road, people using stairs, ladders? getting out of the bath?

Risk of falling off a bike is low, consequences for a fall are also normally quite low. Helmet does not protect against collision with vehicle or highspeed collision with street furniture, only the fall.

Probably come off my bike 4 or 5 times in 30 years. Approximately half with and half without. Reckon helmet may have saved me from concussion and grazed ear once, no head injuries when not using.

More people present to A&E with head injuries as car occupants, no one is calling for driving helmets.

I wear a helmet when riding with others due to the increased risk of a fall from touching wheels and because it is club policy. But no one is going to fall off on a 1km hill climb, probably on a closed road.

wycombewheeler wrote:

Is it equally barmy for pedestrians crossing the road, people using stairs, ladders? getting out of the bath?

Personally, when crossing the road, going up the stairs or getting out of the bath I'm not going 30 mph and will hit tarmac with my head at that speed if I have a mishap. But top notch analogy.

Your polystyrene cycle helmet will provide very little protection to you if you are hitting the ground with downward velocity of 30mph, though you are going to have to falling from a very tall bicycle to be doing this.

Now hitting a kerb or street furniture would seem more apt, but as I say very little protection.

And when crossing the road, it's more to so with the speed of the vehicle that hits you than anything else.

ktache wrote:

Your polystyrene cycle helmet...

Why do folks always love to quote the fact that cycle helmets are made of polystyrene as if it somehow undermines their protective capacity? Polystyrene is an amazingly strong material used extensively in high-stress and/or protective applications, e.g. car head restraints, side impact protection, bumper filler, child seats, even surfboards. It's also (and this amuses me because anti-helemteers are often at pains to stress the difference between cycle and motorcycle helmets) the primary component of all motorcycle helemts, in fact a motorcycle helmet is effectively simply a thicker cycle helmet, but oddly I haven't see many people saying they're useless and motorcyclists are fools to wear them.

Rendel Harris wrote:

ktache wrote:

Your polystyrene cycle helmet...

Why do folks always love to quote the fact that cycle helmets are made of polystyrene as if it somehow undermines their protective capacity? Polystyrene is an amazingly strong material used extensively in high-stress and/or protective applications, e.g. car head restraints, side impact protection, bumper filler, child seats, even surfboards. It's also (and this amuses me because anti-helemteers are often at pains to stress the difference between cycle and motorcycle helmets) the primary component of all motorcycle helemts, in fact a motorcycle helmet is effectively simply a thicker cycle helmet, but oddly I haven't see many people saying they're useless and motorcyclists are fools to wear them.

Cool story bro!!! 
But to get back to the valid points made that you attempted to reply to,  rather than your obfuscations, please do link pics of you wearing helmets when driving and climbing ladders!

And yet these are the majority of people prsenting to A&E with head injuries.

1) If you're coming off at 30mph you should be looking at your riding style before adding a helmet so you can be reckless

2) regardless of speed of movement the impact speed of head hitting the ground is unchanged. There will potentially be the addition of a large amount of friction while sliding, perhaps a kevlar cap rather than a helmet.

3) If your head hits something at 30mph a flimsy cycle helmet is just not going to cut it. Do you cycle in a motorbike helmet?

You just demonstrated the very common over estimation of the risks and underestimation of the efficacy of helmets.

wycombewheeler wrote:

1) If you're coming off at 30mph you should be looking at your riding style before adding a helmet so you can be reckless

Typical patronising anti-helmeter comment. Do you have such a great riding style that it protects you against loose gravel, tyre blowouts, animals running into the road etc? If so then fine, perhaps you don't need a helmet. We poor fallible mortals recognise that however well and carefully we ride there is always the potential for crashing.

Pro helmeters:

I wear a helmet so I reckon everyone else should wear helmets also.

Pragmatists:
But you would do better to wear a helmet doing other activities also then!?

Pro Helemetists:
Oh dont be silly thats ridiculous. I'll be fine. 

Its clear black and white hypocrisy. 

Where have I said everyone should wear a helmet? I fully support the individual's right to make their own choice; that doesn't mean I have to agree with that choice.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm debating with people on here who have properly argued points of view and are interested in debate, I'm not interested in silly needlers who just want argument, and so this is the only response you'll be getting from me.

Rendel Harris wrote:

wycombewheeler wrote:

1) If you're coming off at 30mph you should be looking at your riding style before adding a helmet so you can be reckless

Typical patronising anti-helmeter comment.

Typically patronising and ignorant pro-helmet comment.

You generally post sensible stuff but your attitude on this topic is disappointing. Please read more widely before presuming to know about a topic as contentious as this. A good place to start is the paragon of sensible and reasoned advocacy, CB:

https://chrisboardman.com/blog/index_files/e67d4b8aac0c709c5801ce466bdcd...

Also, most people that oppose helmet compulsion and disagree with some of the arguments in favour of a holey polystyrene hat are simply trying to correct decades of dubious marketing as to the real value of this item while cycling. The vast majority do not want to stop anyone who wishes to wear one, we simply do not want to be forced, coerced or pressured into wearing one ourselves every time we ride.

For the record, I own 3 cycle helmets. I use them when I (not you) deem it appropriate. That's my choice. I suspect that I have spent considerably more time than you mulling this topic, reading, researching and listening to various people over the years. That's not to say I know it all - far from it - but that my PoV is based on facts.

I'm not going to waste too much time addressing such astonishing arrogance, but I would recommend you go back over my comments and see if you find anywhere where I say helmets should be mandatory. You won't find any because I haven't and I've frequently explicitly stated that they shouldn't be. If it makes you feel clever to act as if I've said that and then claim you know far more about it than I, fill your boots.

Rendel Harris wrote:

I'm not going to waste too much time addressing such astonishing arrogance, but I would recommend you go back over my comments and see if you find anywhere where I say helmets should be mandatory.

You may not be directly but you're chastising people who do not want to wear one. Opinions like yours give fuel for people wanting to pass laws, compulsion by stealth.

Have you read the Boardman article?

No I'm not feeling 'clever', you're missing the point. I've been mulling this topic over and over for 15 years. I'm betting you've not given it anywhere near that much time and effort before telling me what I should be wearing on my head.

Simon E wrote:

 

No I'm not feeling 'clever', you're missing the point. I've been mulling this topic over and over for 15 years. I'm betting you've not given it anywhere near that much time and effort before telling me what I should be wearing on my head.

I've been thinking about helmets and researching whether they are worthwhile since reading Richard Ballantine's advocacy of them in the copy of Richard's Bicycle Book I was given for my birthday in 1986. Which is rather longer than fifteen years, so don't try lording it over me on those grounds, thank you.

Rendel Harris wrote:

I've been thinking about helmets and researching whether they are worthwhile since reading Richard Ballantine's advocacy of them in the copy of Richard's Bicycle Book I was given for my birthday in 1986.

Wow, that's impressive. I definitely can't match that.

It's therefore a missed opportunity that you didn't call on that extensive knowledge to provide a more convincing case for wearing them.

Are you in favour of wearing helmets while on a ladder or walking downstairs?

Did you read the Boardman piece?

If you're coming off at 30mph you should be looking at your riding style before adding a helmet so you can be reckless

A textbook A* Dim comment.

I regularly call for the introduction of mandatory driving (and passenger) helmets to show the hypocrisy and idiocy of those calling for it for cycle helmets.

And no in car stereos or indeed closed windows for those saying that cycling with earphones should be banned.

I mean, if only it saves one life...

ktache wrote:

I regularly call for the introduction of mandatory driving (and passenger) helmets to show the hypocrisy and idiocy of those calling for it for cycle helmets.

And no in car stereos or indeed closed windows for those saying that cycling with earphones should be banned.

I mean, if only it saves one life...

it's such a red herring though, there has been no serious intiative by any political party to introduce compulsory helmets and I'm prepared to bet my mortgage it will never happen in the UK, so why does everyone get so antsy about it? Why do people get so het up about something that will always be a matter of personal choice?

Rendel Harris wrote:

ktache wrote:

I regularly call for the introduction of mandatory driving (and passenger) helmets to show the hypocrisy and idiocy of those calling for it for cycle helmets.

And no in car stereos or indeed closed windows for those saying that cycling with earphones should be banned.

I mean, if only it saves one life...

it's such a red herring though, there has been no serious intiative by any political party to introduce compulsory helmets and I'm prepared to bet my mortgage it will never happen in the UK, so why does everyone get so antsy about it? Why do people get so het up about something that will always be a matter of personal choice?

You're ignoring countries that do introduce mandatory cycle helmet laws (which inevitably reduce cycling) and there's definitely a helmet-blame culture in this country whereby not wearing a helmet (i.e. personal choice) will get you abuse from certain people. There's been plenty of cases where police will question cyclist victims of road collisions about whether they were wearing a helmet even when that is utterly irrelevant to the investigation. There's also cases of schools where the children are prohibited from cycling to and from school unless they are wearing a helmet. I've also seen many comments on this site where people have been insulted for not wearing helmets (e.g. stupid, ignoring safety etc).

That's the problem - it should be a matter of personal choice but the wearing of helmets is used as a way of marking out cyclists as an out-group and making them responsible for not getting too injured when hit by poor drivers rather than focussing on actually making roads safer.

(I'm more of a helmet-agnostic, but I do wear one whilst cycling to appease Mrs Hawkinspeter though luckily it's only been effective for low hanging branches)

Risk of falling off a bike is low
But not that low. Experienced 68 year old cyclist, Christmas Eve 2020:

Risk of falling off one's office chair is low. Experienced 52 year old chair sitter, August 15th 2018, A&E with concussion and neck pain. Funilly enough, not one person in the whole medical treatment chain asked if a helmet was being worn and they are still not mandated in the office.

Mungecrundle wrote:

Risk of falling off one's office chair is low. Experienced 52 year old chair sitter, August 15th 2018, A&E with concussion and neck pain. Funilly enough, not one person in the whole medical treatment chain asked if a helmet was being worn and they are still not mandated in the office.

Well you must like to live dangerously then. I for one wear a seatbelt in my office chair for just this kind of possible calamity!

Risk of falling off one's office chair is low

This topic has become even more barmy since I last looked. It is bedevilled by a lack of appreciation of numbers/ probabilities, a load of pseudo-science, an absence of sense and stupendously unfunny attempts at humour. I have worn a helmet on practically every trip by bike since I asked someone to bring me one back from the US 45 or more years ago- I had seen American cyclists wearing the early ones ?Bell. I have had very few accidents, but  they happen 'out of the blue' and there is no doubt that the smashed helmet I showed below saved my brain from a worse injury even though my right shoulder and hip fortunately took a lot of the bash. As it was I suffered some degree of pre and post traumatic amnesia.

Penalty from wearing a helmet : Zero for almost all of us almost all of the time. It even provides a handy place to hang a waterproof cover.

Benefit from wearing a helmet: could be massive. Conclusion: obvious. I don't think there are any serious proposals to make helmet wearing compulsory, or to make an absence of a helmet 'contributory negligence'- although there probably some judge or coroner daft comments out there. I have no intention of criticising Boardman for not wearing a helmet on some of his public outings. I think most people who don't wear a helmet for most of their cycling hours are barmy. Most of them will get away with it, but I'm hoping to avoid joining those who don't.

I was deliberately knocked off my bike and my cycle helmet was cracked right through. That would have been my cranium without it, and I do not think I would have got up from that (to be assaulted by the driver!)

The risk of falling off a bike is low, as is the risk of crashing a car - but I always wear a seatbelt. The risk of death when playing Russian roulette is (relatively) low, but I would still not be keen to play - even if the barrel could accomodate 100 bullets.

If others do not want to wear a helmet, that is their choice. I've not heard any serious calls for compulsion.

Crazyhorse wrote:

I was deliberately knocked off my bike and my cycle helmet was cracked right through. That would have been my cranium without it,...

Sorry to hear that and glad you came through OK. But a helmet that cracked right through is a helmet that failed to protect you. Helmets work through the action of the EPS being irreversibly crushed. This lengthens the distance through which the head is brought to a halt, thereby reducing the deceleration of the head and the brain within. A helmet that simply breaks apart on impact has done very little - other factors not to do with the helmet likely saved your bacon.