“According to cyclists, cyclists don’t jump red lights”: Ashley Neal’s ‘straw man’ red lights claim blasted; “Bike fetish leads to traffic misconduct” says psychologist; Anti-cycling ‘comedy’; From Busby Babes to Brailsford’s Boys? + more on the live blog
SUMMARY
From the Busby Babes and Fergie’s Fledglings to… Brailsford’s Boys? Manchester United could be on the verge of a marginal gains revolution + all the rest of the cycling news you may have missed on the weekend roundup
Years from now, football historians may well look back at Manchester United’s 7-0 thrashing at the hands of arch-rivals Liverpool last weekend and compare it to Team Sky’s humbling three weeks at the 2010 Tour de France – two chastening experiences which helped define and shape subsequent eras of domination.
And both, perhaps, if recent articles on road.cc are to be believed, led by a certain Dave Brailsford.
According to our story yesterday, Ineos supremo and fracking aficionado Sir Jim Ratcliffe – who has emerged as one of the front runners to buy United from the much-loved and astonishingly successful Glazer family – has tasked Dave B with overhauling the sporting side (a phrase that almost certainly prompted bemusement within United’s current board – ‘Sporting side’, what’s that?) “to make them the number one club in the world once again”.
United supporters will be hoping if Brailsford – whose record restructuring football clubs, most recently at Ineos-backed OGC Nice, is somewhat chequered – does take the reins at Old Trafford, the team will be more closely based on mid-2010s Team Sky’s grand tour setup than its classics squad…
‘Right Dave, who do you reckon for the No. 9 position? Geraint Thomas or Weghorst?’
It was all a bit football-crazy on the site this weekend – you’d have almost thought a major football-related news story had happened – as Dan channelled his inner Claudio Ranieri to tinker with his cycling footballers XI, in a bid to secure that all-important Top Four spot.
> Footballers who cycle XI — the Premier League stars who love life on two wheels
And apparently there were some cycling stories too…
> Cyclist injured in crash with delivery driver seeks £50,000 compensation
> Tom Boonen apologises to Colnago for claiming Tadej Pogačar is on a slower bike than rivals
> Peak District or the Alps? Cyclist enjoys snow-covered Snake Pass
“No one watched that routine and then drove at a cyclist because of it”: Cyclists condemn Mark Steel’s son’s “cyclists are all insane” stand-up routine and Nazi comparison
It’s a two-for-one ‘son of’ special on the live blog this morning, after Elliot Steel – the son of stand-up comedian Mark Steel – decided to prove that anti-cycling bingo callers are also capable of telling a few jokes during toilet breaks:
Why cyclists and Jeremy Vine are all insane pic.twitter.com/8vIXl75R45
— Elliot Steel (@elliotsteelcom) March 9, 2023
As an ‘edgy comedian’ – young Elliot has disavowed his father’s lefty leanings in the past – it’s perhaps no surprise that vague mutterings about cyclists, Jeremy Vine, and the Highway Code were plucked from the low-hanging joke tree when Steel Jr devised his set.
Or that he resorted to a lazy, and weird, ‘cyclists as Nazis’ trope when he was roundly condemned for his clip:
Well well well. What do we have here cyclists. Care to explain? pic.twitter.com/wnou6YzPBL
— Elliot Steel (@elliotsteelcom) March 10, 2023
Or that he dug his heels in when Cycling Twitter pointed out that jokes about driving into cyclists may well lead to dangerous behaviour on the roads:
No one watched that routine and then drove at a cyclist because of it
— Elliot Steel (@elliotsteelcom) March 10, 2023
The lamest group of people to ever exist
— Elliot Steel (@elliotsteelcom) March 9, 2023
This guys taking 6 seconds of the routine where I’m doing set up and acted like I bombed. Not only do these cyclists hog up the road but they are dishonest and create propaganda. Modern day Nazis if you ask me https://t.co/iNwj7KWu1s
— Elliot Steel (@elliotsteelcom) March 10, 2023
Been 5 days now and they’re still coming. Hopefully rush hour tonight will solve that
— Elliot Steel (@elliotsteelcom) March 13, 2023
It’s a touch more disappointing, however, that Father Steel, with his socialist and green credentials, joined in on the ‘fun’ too:
He’s not wrong https://t.co/BvSeVJCCVi
— Mark Steel (@mrmarksteel) March 9, 2023
Believe me cyclists and pedestrians are more than aware of those laws of motion and that’s why we want people not to overtake inches away, when it’s perfectly possible not to.
Still, yay, more car dependency advocacy because that’s totally in the interests of working people.— Jon (@ormondroyd) March 12, 2023
The result of Newton’s 3rd Law is that on average, we kill 116 and seriously injure 4,177 people a year who are just trying to get around under their own steam. In this so-called war, the mechanised slaughter is one-way. https://t.co/yQWzRdii5K pic.twitter.com/bU0wiaZsiN
— The Ranty Highwayman (@RantyHighwayman) March 12, 2023
— Mark Hodson (@markandcharlie) March 12, 2023
What do you think? Can stand-up routines from little-known comedians actually affect real-life behaviour on the roads? Or was everyone all a bit too quick to jump on Steel for what was, he would argue, just a series of jokes?
Or, perhaps most pertinently, was the whole thing just a bit rubbish?
Pro cyclists, they’re just like us after all: Neilson Powless enjoys post-Paris-Nice McDonald’s… in full kit
After watching Tadej Pogačar storm up the Col d’Èze yesterday at Paris-Nice, putting almost a minute into some of the best riders in the world while nonchalantly texting his girlfriend and catching up on his homework, it’s nice to remember that many cyclists – such as EF Education’s Neilson Powless – are just like us, and can’t resist heading straight for a post-race Maccies, in full kit and everything:
Nothing says home race is over quite like popping into the McDonald’s at the finish. Chapeau! @NPowless @EFprocycling #ParisNice pic.twitter.com/iHC2jATUmf
— david blaine (@chefdavidblaine) March 12, 2023
I’m sure sixth on GC at Paris-Nice is worth at least a large Big Mac meal…
2024 Tour de France Nice “dream finale” to feature summit finish and hilly time trial
☀ On July 20. and 21. 2024, dream finale on the French Riviera
☀ Les 20 et 21 juillet 2024, un week-end d’apothéose sur la Riviera !#TDF2024 pic.twitter.com/FB8cTAD4WT
— Tour de France™ (@LeTour) March 13, 2023
The details of the final two stages of the 2024 Tour de France – the first edition in the race’s history to finish outside Paris – have been announced by organisers ASO today… and they look pretty tasty.
The 2024 Tour, which will also include a first-ever Grand Départ in Italy, will end with a potentially dramatic and race-defining final weekend on the French Riviera in Nice, as Paris gears up to host the Olympic Games days after the race ends.
The move to accommodate the Olympics has allowed ASO to think outside the almost-50-year-old procession and sprint on the Champs-Élysées box – and it’s safe to say, they haven’t disappointed.
💛 #TDF2024 – Stage 20
🚩 @VilledeNice – Col de la Couillole 🏁
📏 132 km | 4.400 m of climbing⛰ Col de Braus, Col de Turini, Col de La Colmiane, Col de la Couillole: 4 stars menu!
⛰ Col de Braus, Col de Turini, Col de La Colmiane, Col de la Couillole : menu 4 étoiles ! pic.twitter.com/M7ckuuQQ0Z
— Tour de France™ (@LeTour) March 13, 2023
Announced today, the penultimate stage is a short and super sharp 132km loop around the Côte d’Azur’s iconic training roads, taking in the Col de Braus, Col de Turini, and Col de La Colmiane, before a summit finish on the 15.7km Col de la Couillole, the scene of Tadej Pogačar’s victory over David Gaudu on Saturday at Paris-Nice.
I’m sure ASO and all of France will be hoping for a reverse in 16 months’ time…
💛 #TDF2024 – Stage 21
🚩 Monaco – @VilledeNice 🏁
📏 35.2 km⏱ The riders will have to make the best of La Turbie and Col d’Eze.
⏱ Pour ce chrono final, les coureurs affronteront La Turbie, le Col d’Eze avant de plonger sur Nice et la Place Masséna. pic.twitter.com/no5NszL0cR
— Tour de France™ (@LeTour) March 13, 2023
The final day will then feature – for the first time since 1989, Greg, Laurent, and all that – a time trial, on the last day, at the Tour de bleeping France.
And not just any old TT either – the 2024 Tour could potentially be decided by a 35km hilly affair taking from Monaco to Nice, taking in La Turbie and the legendary Col d’Èze before that familiar descent and run-in down to the Promenade des Anglais before finishing on the Place Masséna.
Let’s just hope the race is still hanging in the balance when we hit Nice, because we could be in for an absolute cracker and maybe, just maybe, a Tour for the ages.
Reigning Tour champ Jonas Vingegaard and the pun-tastic Thomas De Gendt certainly think so anyway…
🎙️ “A really exciting finish” – Listen to what Jonas Vingegaard has to say about the last two stages of #TDF2024 👇
🎙️ “Beaucoup de choses peuvent se passer!” – Jonas Vingegaard réagit aux parcours des deux dernières étapes du #TDF2024 👇 pic.twitter.com/0WNBKLkpt8
— Tour de France™ (@LeTour) March 13, 2023
That is a nice looking ITT.
— Thomas De Gendt (@DeGendtThomas) March 13, 2023
“The organisers need to get a grip”: More Paris-Nice safety concerns as motorist makes way onto course
Let’s just hope that by the time the Tour de France rocks up to Nice in 2024 that ASO has worked out how to keep the local roads safe.
After Thursday’s spot of final kilometre ‘dodge the cycling infra’, the Paris-Nice peloton was then forced to take evasive action mid-way through yesterday’s final stage when an unsuspecting motorist terrifyingly made their way onto the descent of the Côte de Berre-les-Alpes, prompting an angry Rob Hatch in comms to tell the race organisers to “get a grip”.
🗣️ “Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear. Now, how on earth does that happen?” 😱
😳 Cars on the road during the final stage of Paris-Nice.#ParisNice pic.twitter.com/reRrVXw6aO
— Eurosport (@eurosport) March 12, 2023
Despite giving everyone with long enough memories horrible flashbacks to Marco Pantani’s horrific collision with a course-crashing motorist at the 1995 Milano-Torino, thankfully no rider was reported to have been hurt during yesterday’s dubiously organised descent.
Though, as Dan will tell you in a forthcoming story, the array of safety concerns at Paris-Nice, as well as at the concurrent Tirreno-Adriatico, have certainly not gone down too well in the peloton…
Another day in the death race 😡 pic.twitter.com/gJWNN1EHHA
— Florian Senechal-Staelens (@flosenech) March 12, 2023
This is very cool…
Woweeeee. It was really inspiring to support @KidicalMassLond today and to join hundreds of parents & children calling for healthier and safer #streetsforkids in London! 💚
FYI @MayorofLondon @willnorman @Chris_Boardman @theJeremyVine 👀
🧵1/10 pic.twitter.com/DRa3zETeYB
— Oliver Lord (@0jhl) March 12, 2023
Food to feel good about… if you arrive by Range Rover
Hi @waitrose. I’m so pleased you emailed me this and asked about my visit to your Botley Road branch in #Oxford. You see I #cycle and given it’s your “leading eco” store – imagine my surprise when – pic.twitter.com/pc9Pptswqf
— Pablo (@pablosquire) March 11, 2023
There was no-where to leave my bike securely or lock it up? It would appear my fellow cycling buddies (from cargo bikes to mountain bikes) all do the same to your store and filled the pitiful limited bike parking. Can we do something about this please and pic.twitter.com/H1VaWncwqX
— Pablo (@pablosquire) March 11, 2023
Have a large secure bike shed? You may not be aware at HQ but #BotleyRoad is about to be closed for a year so even more us will be able to #cycle to your branch! Maybe time to show us how green you really are and ditch some of those empty car spaces? Thanks team x
— Pablo (@pablosquire) March 11, 2023
When Pog and Urska met Lando, Lily, and Alex
Bit of a mix of sports there…🚴♀️🚴♂️🏎⛳️🏎 pic.twitter.com/U0BWNjhWkX
— Tim Bonville-Ginn (@TimBonvilleGinn) March 12, 2023
Maybe they’re all at a test screening for the next series of Superstars…
Mathieu van der Poel: “If I had to map out the perfect winter now, it would be one without cyclocross”
Jasper Philipsen may disagree, but it’s been a relatively slow start to the road season for Mathieu van der Poel.
Despite piloting Alpecin-Deceuninck teammate Philipsen to two sprint victories at Tirreno-Adriatico last week, Van der Poel failed to contest for any wins himself at the Race of the Two Seas, despite a number of stages suiting his strength and explosivity.
The story was much the same the week before at Strade Bianche, his season debut, where the 28-year-old was forced to settle for 15th, almost two minutes down on ‘cross rival Tom Pidcock – who, notably, cut short his winter in the rainbow bands to properly prepare for the classics season on the road.
And Van der Poel reckons that his busy winter, culminating in a fifth world cyclocross title in front of his home fans in Hoogerheide, counted against him at Tirreno.
“I had hoped to be a bit better,” he told reporters yesterday. “The cyclocross world title was something unique but I only had a short rest after the worlds and then went to training camp for two weeks in Spain, not enough to be in top form.
(Alex Whitehead/SWpix.com)
“When I don’t do cyclocross I have a good build-up [for the road season]. That’s the problem – it’s so busy.
“I didn’t want to miss the worlds in Hoogerheide for all the money in the world. But if I had to map out the perfect winter now, it would be one without cyclocross.”
Nevertheless, the Dutchman believes there is plenty of time to come good ahead of the classics, where he hopes to capture a maiden Milan-San Remo title this Saturday, while a third Tour of Flanders victory will see him equal the record for wins at the Ronde.
“It’s very difficult to make choices, but nothing is lost yet either,” he noted. “If [my form] comes in Milan-San Remo next week everyone will say it was the right approach. It’s always like that.
“I don’t think I can do very much with extra training this week. The main thing for me is to recover well from Tirreno-Adriatico. And if there’s one race where you don’t have to be the best to still win, it’s Milan-San Remo.”
As all cycling fans know by now, you can never write off Mathieu van der Poel…
“Amsterdam bicycle fetish leads to traffic misconduct,” says Dutch traffic psychologist
’Fietsfetisj Amsterdam leidt tot wangedrag in het verkeer’https://t.co/KNNASmzYDP
— W. Ploos van Amstel (@Amsterdam1012) March 10, 2023
Just when you thought attitudes towards cyclists were a whole lot rosier in the Netherlands, the country’s largest daily newspaper De Telegraaf has published an article critical of Amsterdam’s so-called “bicycle fetish” (does that lead you to sites like this one?) and the apparent traffic misdemeanours stemming from it.
So what is a bike fetish, I hear you cry?
“It is a kind of superiority feeling: my bike and I are completely in charge here,” says traffic psychologist Gerard Tertoolen.
“I’ve got it all under control. I can easily cycle through a red light and otherwise you just stop. You put yourself above the others. That is not a desirable situation.”
Sounds like a comment under a Daily Mail article, if I’m honest.
Als het alternatief een autofetisj is dan mogen we onszelf gelukkig prijzen.
— Lennart Nout (@lennartnout) March 10, 2023
Thankfully, Utrecht-based planning engineer Lennart Nout restored some perspective to proceedings during a discussion about the article on Twitter.
“If the alternative is a car fetish, then we can count ourselves lucky,” he wrote.
Indeed.
Cold War Steve strikes again
Time for one last football/cycling crossover (sort of) before I send you off into the evening…
— Cold War Steve (@coldwarsteve) March 10, 2023
“People jump red lights all the time, sometimes they happen to be on bikes and other times in cars”
Ashley Neal’s claim that “according to cyclists, cyclists don’t jump red lights” has, rather unbelievably, generated some discussion in the comments.
“What planet is AN on?” says road.cc reader HLaB. “People jump red lights all the time, sometimes they happen to be on bikes and other times in cars. I’ve never heard anyone say otherwise.”
HoarseMann added: “Someone riding a wheeled vehicle with a motor of power greater than 250W or that can assist beyond 16mph is a MOTORIST! To be fair, we can’t really tell if this is an illegal e-bike. However, Ashley seems to have instantly decided it’s illegal, but then calls the rider a cyclist!”
However, PRSboy offered up an interesting take on the whole thing: “Sometimes I think cyclists spend too much time getting offended over very little and this makes ‘us’ seem petulant.
“Ashley Neal has commented regularly in videos on driving safely around cyclists (and driving safely generally), yet here we are taking issue on semantics.”
Meanwhile, the reviews are in for Elliot Steel’s new show:
Not sure I’ll go and see it at the Fringe, if I’m honest…
“According to cyclists, cyclists don’t jump red lights”: Ashley Neal’s ‘straw man’ red lights claim blasted
The live blog’s favourite driving instructor/YouTuber/son of a four-time European Cup-winning full back, Ashley Neal, has been a bit like the proverbial bus on road.cc this winter – very little sign of him for a few months, then bam, he’s brightening up your Monday two weeks in a row.
Last Monday, you may recall, the great online road safety grudge match between Neal and camera cyclist CyclingMikey continued, as the Liverpool-based driving instructor aimed a quick jab to the chin by informing his 134,000 subscribers of his concerns that Mikey’s own large following would inspire others to “copy some of his behaviour”.
With a swift duck to the left and a powerful counterpunch, Mikey retorted that he wishes Neal would “leave me alone” – but also cheekily noted that he’s “mildly amused by him having to use me to create content, perhaps he doesn’t have enough of his own creativity”.
And less than a week after Neal-Van Erp II, one of the driving instructor’s YouTube videos has attracted the attention of another live blog stalwart, Jeremy Vine, as well as half of Cycling Twitter.
Or more specifically, one particular claim made in the video has…
In the video, a compilation of Neal’s “February driving fails”, at around 11:45, he spots an illegally modified e-bike travelling behind him towards a set of traffic lights.
“Will they skip them, or will they wait?” Neal asks his camera. The e-bike user then allows the driving instructor a moment of smugness by sailing through the red light.
“But according to cyclists, cyclists don’t jump red lights,” Neal concludes.
(It must be noted that he acknowledged that the e-bike user stopped at the next set of lights – “fair play” – and, in the following clip, emphasised that cyclists jumping red lights are “nowhere near as dangerous as this Audi driver doing it”.)
However, it was Neal’s assertion that cyclists claim that they never jump red lights, as well as categorising the non-pedalling, illegally modified e-bike user as a cyclist, that angered a certain section of the internet late last week:
I am extremely confident that I’ve never heard a single cyclist claim that cyclists don’t jump red lights. pic.twitter.com/cCKN7ol39q
— Pudsey Pedaller (@PudseyPedaller) March 9, 2023
Said no cyclist ever. https://t.co/e0QTtbwq2X
— IrishCycle.com (@IrishCycle) March 9, 2023
‘The only way to argue against someone when you are 100% in the wrong, is to lie about what they said’
— Pudsey Pedaller (@PudseyPedaller) March 9, 2023
It’s from his latest *driving* fail compilation in which he claims a cyclist just jumped a red light, having just noted previously that it’s an illegally modified vehicle, and therefore not a cyclist.
He’s tying himself in knots.
— Pudsey Pedaller (@PudseyPedaller) March 9, 2023
So come on @AshleyNealDI, where have cyclists claim that cyclists don’t jump red lights?
I’m a cyclist and a driver, and both do.
I’ve observed far more drivers do so, as when a cyclist does it, if they hit a car they end up in A&E. Or worse. Many would never risk it. https://t.co/5VGrSWx7hM
— John🔶 (@CynicalHornet) March 9, 2023
Who is this weird guy?
— Jeremy Vine (@theJeremyVine) March 9, 2023
I was going to leave the last word, naturally, to Jeremy – but I thought I’d end this one on an upbeat, conciliatory note:
I’m a cyclist and driver, and I like and respect both Ashley and Mikey, enjoy their content, and can appreciate that they are both trying to improve things in their own ways. It’s a shame we’re so divided!
— Andrew Stride (@AndrewStride) March 9, 2023
13 March 2023, 09:57
13 March 2023, 09:57
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Latest Comments
I often wonder why they don't wear cooling arm sleeves and cooling hats under their helmets. At a guess it's probably something to do with 'the rules', as this is road racing. Headsweats caps and similar make a big difference to how hot you get and you avoid getting your head sunburnt through the gaps in your helmet.
It's good going to keep the Vanquish price at £485, especially if you can still get a discount through Cycling UK or British Cycling, or maybe a cashback site (I've seen 10% via Complete Savings before). Shame Halfords didn't change the cassette as road.cc suggested in their review last year though.
Plenty of distinguishing features to identify the place including "Dubai, UAE" right at the top of that Insta post. And using a mobile phone while driving is illegal in Dubai and across the UAE.
The Guardian isn’t a source of scientific data It's a much better source than climate change denying nutters!
Given that he is holding his hand on the steering wheel while controls on the central panel, including the driving mode selector, are illuminated, it is highly doubtful that the car is parked with the engine off.
This is over-simplistic and false. The Guardian isn't a source of scientific data.
Seeing as his car is probably a gold wrapped Hummer or G Wagon, it would appear that his taste mechanisms have been out of action for some time.
At the very top of the hierarchy would be separation of cyclists and motor vehicles, or reduction of car journeys. Safety features fitted to cars, while better than PPE, could fail or be override.
Yeah, the updated site isn't exactly an improvement.
81 thoughts on ““According to cyclists, cyclists don’t jump red lights”: Ashley Neal’s ‘straw man’ red lights claim blasted; “Bike fetish leads to traffic misconduct” says psychologist; Anti-cycling ‘comedy’; From Busby Babes to Brailsford’s Boys? + more on the live blog”
How to prove AN doesn’t talk
How to prove AN doesn’t talk to cyclists? What cyclist ever has said cyclists don’t jump red lights? I know some on here have a lot of time for AN but this is the type of shit that demonstrates for me that he is talking out of his arse.
Most decent cyclists get pissed off with RLJs
Some cyclists recognise there are lights where it may be safer to go rather than wait for the light to change, maybe an excuse they use for themselves… maybe they still wait but brace (me).
A lot of cyclists have well thought out views on how light junctions and laws could be amended to make them safer.
Most reasonable people will recognise the danger posed by a cyclist RLJ and a vehicle RLJ are vastly different.
But I’ve never met* a cyclist that said cyclists don’t RLJ.
*filming a cyclist and spouting BS does not count as met.
A 1500kg car RLJ at 30mph is
A 1500kg car RLJ at 30mph is different from a 90kg rider and bicycle RLJ at 10mph, for me much closer to a 80kg pedestrian crossing a road at 3mph, but some people only see black and white.
AN really is just a rather
AN really is just a rather patronising person best left to mutter on to learners, rather than be taken seriously. He does make some good points, but quickly spoils it with lazy generalisations letting you know that no one is anywhere near as good on the road as he is whether he’s driving or cycling.
What planet is AN on, people
What planet is AN on, people jump red lights all the time, sometimes they happen to be on bikes and other times in cars. I’ve never heard anyone say otherwise.
Seems clear to me that Ashley
Seems clear to me that Ashley Neal is just talking horse-shit and trying to stir up views for his channel. I had my suspicions when he starts attacking Cycling Mikey for bullshit reasons, but now he’s just making stuff up about cyclists.
After a weekend where the
After a weekend where the main news topic has been about language. ie whether the government used language that deliberately “othered” refugees AN uses language that deliberately others cyclicts.*
By contrast a headline in the Daily Fail “Vehicle Rams over two people in Lawless London”** It’s clearly a Car and there’s clearly a driver! As for evidence that London is Lawless the article goes on to say that 4 people ere arrested.
* For the record I don’t think that any cyclists ever has said that there are no RLJ cyclists and even if they did they don’t speak for me and I actually don’t think that is a cyclist as he’s not peddling. Surely an electric moped.
** I think the Fail has updated the story but you can still find this on msn.
I’m not sure if that’s the
I’m not sure if that’s the case, Ashley can speak for himself, but his round up videos always seem to get decent viewing numbers, he doesnt have to provoke to be watched, obviously a tweet pile on gets more eyeballs on it, but I don’t think he said it to provoke that.
Maybe he just reflects the view that alot of cyclists always discuss RLJs with a ” ah but…” qualifier.
I was more interested in his horse videos actually, especially as I recognised the level crossing area one, why on earth would you drive onto a mainline crossing when the exit isn’t clear.
Awavey wrote:
I’d be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt if he hadn’t deliberately gone through all of CyclingMikey’s videos to try to find something to criticise.
I wouldn’t mind if he correctly summed up various cyclist opinions about RLJing as there’s some important points about how traffic lights are generally designed with only the motorists’ benefit in mind and how sometimes a safe way to deal with some junctions is to RLJ. He doesn’t address any of the interesting talking points, but instead introduces a falsehood which seems to have belittling cyclists as the only point. His comment is neither instructive nor insightful.
My impression is Ashley tends
My impression is Ashley tends to comes up with a point or idea he wants to make in his videos, but often has to go find footage to make it, and consequently doesn’t find the best footage that unequivocally makes that point,t he pictures are always more debatable than the words that go with it.
So with Mikey, he wanted to cover some point about Mikeys videos and the way Mikey goes about what he does, did Ashley pick the best video that showed that maybe not if its something you had to dig that for back for, but does that change the point he was making, probably not, which ultimately was just a fair use comment piece, people are allowed to have opinions like ” i dont think thats the way you should go about cycling safety” that differ from the collective held view.
Awavey wrote:
It seems to me that Ashley is trying hard to portray Mikey as a threat to cyclists’ safety and creating division on the roads. He’s welcome to have that opinion, but I disagree with him and find some of his other comments about cyclists to be pushing his agenda of blaming cyclists for causing division on the roads.
It would be fair enough for him to push that agenda if it wasn’t for cyclists getting killed due to some motorists’ attitudes towards cyclists that are amplified with various bullshittery from mainstream media and now also Ashley Neal.
I for one have admitted to
I for one have admitted to deliberate red-light-jumpery while on Critical Mass rides. Not only that but there were scores of others including children and occasionally pets doing the same.
On the other hand I’ve also suggested reasons why others might be doing this on other occasions, that I’m “otherwise law abiding” when not protesting and why people shouldn’t lose their minds over this.
I don’t know London and several people here have said that there is a “problem” with this there. I can’t comment on that but that’s more cyclists not saying “no-one jumps red lights” or “it’s all fine”.
Someone riding a wheeled
Someone riding a wheeled vehicle with a motor of power greater than 250W or that can assist beyond 16mph is a MOTORIST!
To be fair, we can’t really tell if this is an illegal e-bike. However, Ashley seems to have instantly decided it’s illegal, but then calls the rider a cyclist!
Oh, and I found something out a while ago – it IS legal in the UK to have an e-bike with a throttle that propels the rider up to 16mph and still is considered an EAPC (electrically assisted pedal cycle).
HoarseMann wrote:
Was the entire middle of the frame filled up with strange plastic boxes held in place with parcel tape and duct tape?
brooksby wrote:
Quite possibly, but a dodgy DIY conversion can still be legal!
As can this type of thing. Saw a lot of these being used by delivery riders in Cambridge recently. They are legally classed as an EAPC, so can use all the cycling infrastructure etc. Even with a throttle (didn’t see any being actively pedalled!).
I did see a few go through red lights too – and yes, they are technically cyclists.
HoarseMann wrote:
<shudder>
No mention in your
No mention in your manufacturer’s link of a throttle apart from a pushbutton walking pace throttle, which is legal. I expect the ones you have seen have been illegally modified, which with many ebikes is child’s play. It does make them illegal though and opens the rider up to some fairly stiff penalties if caught, particularly if involved in an accident.
brooksby wrote:
Fast moving cycles with no sign of pedalling
Bright liveried riders and warm thermal lining
Strange plastic boxes all duct-taped to frames
These are product of corporate games…
HoarseMann wrote:
I’m pretty sure that’s not true – they have to be pedalled else are not classed the same as other e-bikes. They can be ridden if they have 3rd party insurance and the rider wears a motorbike helmet basically. Anyone else know more?
Shockingly, HoarseMann is
Shockingly, HoarseMann is correct
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles-eapcs/electrically-assisted-pedal-cycles-eapcs-in-great-britain-information-sheet
If you look at the date that
If you look at the date of that info sheet it was issued on July 22nd 2015, the law changed in 2016. It doesn’t apply retrospectively though so any ebike purchased before 2016 can have a full twist and go throttle up to 25 kmh.
Thanks Rendel, I did wonder.
Thanks Rendel, I did wonder. Naively, I followed the link to the vehicle posted by HoarseMann. This led me through to the .gov website that they are quoting. They seem to be falsely claiming that these vehicles can be used in the UK without usual restrictions.
If I’ve got tyime later in the week I might try to contact Trading Standards about it.
A throttle is only permitted
A throttle is only permitted if it cuts out at 3.7 mph. There is a loophole in the law which means that any ebike built before 2016 (when the legislation came in) is exempt so can have a throttle.
Personally I think that if you’re going to allow twist and go electric scooters there is little point in retaining the ban on throttles for ebikes, which can actually be a useful safety feature allowing riders to get away from the lights as quickly as possible and make smooth hill starts. They are also a significant benefit to older and/or disabled riders who can sometimes be perfectly competent once underway but find actually getting started tricky.
They seem to have become de facto accepted anyway, virtually every delivery rider round our way seems to be using a throttle-operated bike and I have yet to see one stopped by the police. I think they pale into insignificance when compared with the issue of illegally overpowered 40mph ebikes and scooters charging about the place.
Rendel Harris wrote:
Not true! The uk has an exception to the EU legislation. I’ll dig up the details later…
HoarseMann wrote:
Fairly sure not – did before 2016 but not now. Very willing to consider contrary evidence though!
I understood that the ‘no
I understood that the ‘no throttle’ rule only applies to bikes that are commercially sold and not to conversion kits you build yourself.
Did a quick search and couldn’t confirm this so I could have read it on site selling the kits and they just had the wrong info.
It’s all a bit grey, a lot of
It’s all a bit grey, a lot of kit sites sell kits with throttles with warnings that they can’t legally be used on road…pretty sure that any throttle over 3.7mph is illegal. In practice I can’t see any police stopping someone with a legal (25kph max) kit for having a throttle, but I think they could if they wanted to.
Rendel Harris wrote:
Full-speed throttles on e-bikes, it’s complicated….
In 1983 the UK (after lobbying from Sir Clive Sinclair and companies like Raleigh) introduced a new classification of vehicle, the Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle. Throttles were allowed and limits were 200W & 15mph for bicycles (250W for tandems and tricycles like the, ahem, Sinclair C5).
In June 2015, in anticipation of GB aligning with EU laws on EAPC’s, the limits for bicycles were increased to 250W & 15.5mph. Throttles were still allowed, however, there was a note that from January 2016, under EU law, throttle controlled bikes must be type approved.
I am not totally sure how this techinically works, but under the weighty EU regs document, chaper 1 article 1 states:
“This Regulation does not apply to the approval of individual vehicles. However, Member States granting such individual approvals shall accept any type-approval of vehicles, systems, components and separate technical units granted under this Regulation instead of under the relevant national provisions.”
This appears to be a loophole that allows EU member states to have their own approval scheme on top of accepting vehicles that are type approved to the EU standard. So, there are two ways for you to own a legal EAPC with a throttle:
1. Get it individually type approved (at a government test centre).
2. Make sure the bike you purchase has EU type approval (which it must do if it can be self propelled above 6kph).
As long as the bike conforms to the GB EAPC limits (250W & 15.5mph), it can have a twist & go, full-speed throttle if it is type approved or individually approved.
Now, because this is specific to Great Britain, your twist & go e-bike might not be considered an EAPC in other EU member states. Consequently, most bike manufacturers are not producing twist & go bikes for the GB market. So they are quite hard to find.
Also, for a time, there was no way to get your Twist & Go EAPC individually approved. So for that period, all these DIY kits were technically illegal. However, the DVSA updated their motorcycle single vehicle approval manual to include a new category the ‘250W Low Power Moped’. You can now take your twist & go 250W 15.5mph bike down to a test centre, pay your £55 fee and get it individually approved (actually, they will let it pass even if it does 16mph):
“250W LPM
250-Watt Low Powered Moped. This is a sub-group of Low Powered Moped that meets the criteria laid down in the Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle Regulations 1983 (SI 1983 No. 1168) as amended by SI 2015 No. 24. The requirements are that the vehicle:
Be fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled.
Be fitted with no motor other than an electric motor, which has a maximum continuous rated power, which does not exceed 250 watts and cannot propel the vehicle when it is travelling at more than 15.5 mph. (Note: the official speed is 25 km/h, MSVA will accept declarations up to and including 16 mph as per low powered mopeds).
These vehicles will be required to meet the standards applied to Low Powered Mopeds except where specified.”
This is all horrendously complicated and confusing, it’s unlikely anybody using an e-bike with a throttle is aware of all this legislation. However, the point is, if you want a throttle controlled EAPC, then there is a way to have one legally in GB.
I see all your careful and
I see all your careful and detailed research and, to bring it full circle, I raise you Ashley Neal’s (sponsored) video “are throttles on ebikes legal“:
I can’t stop watching how he brakes with one finger between the lever and the bar.
In a similar vein (to your post, not his video) there is this ebike tips article on how enormously complicated it is to ride a S-pedelec (i.e. 45km/h assist) legally in the UK: https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/advice/advice/buying-and-riding-an-s-pedelec-in-the-uk-163
oh, yep an S-pedelec is not
oh, yep an S-pedelec is not considered an EAPC in the UK. It’s a moped, so you can’t use any cycling infrastructure, need tax, insurance, MOT, motorbike licence etc. etc. May as well just get a moped!
I use my “bird” finger to
I use my “bird” finger to brake, it’s how I have set up my Hope Tech 3 E4s on my Ultimate Commuter, “pointy” stays wrapped around the bars. It means that pointy on the right and thumb can twist the Rohloff gripshift. Bite point is set so that it will never get to the fingers, even on a big pull and they are true single finger brakes. When forced to use the Good Bike (sadly departed) I discovered that this form of braking didn’t quite work with the thickest of gloves with the XTR levers, so went pointy, with additional bird when wet (ceramics). I could have pushed the bit point out, but it’s rare to need the very thick gloves. XTs on Getting to Work bike generally needs both fingers, early 90s. They are all short levers, none of the four finger thing that Ashley was doing.
I’ve got a twist shift on my
I’ve got a twist shift on my town bike, I don’t use the ‘bird’ finger braking though, but can see the logic. Ashley has a twist throttle on that grip, so maybe a similar reason he’s adopted it too. Mind you, I just don’t think he can make his mind up what he wants to do with his hands!:
If only he’d got a coaster
If only he’d got a coaster brake* with a bit of anticipation he wouldn’t have had to endure this level of scrutiny!
* or an electric fixed-gear – yes, I had to check…
Fair enough, all very
Fair enough, all very considered. It just looked to me like Ashley was getting quite close to squashing pointy. The only flat bar I ride is a Brompton, where I think (but it’s weirdly hard to remember without physically trying it) I brake with pointy and bird and the others are clear of the levers.
PS: is your Ultimate Commuter
PS: is your Ultimate Commuter in evidence anywhere here, e.g. pictures of your bike? He / she sounds a beaut. Condolences on the Good Bike.
Thanks for the information,
Thanks for the information, you’ve saved me an evening on google!
Interesting, if complex,
Interesting, if complex, thanks. So you can have an ebike with a throttle provided that you get type approval for it, but doesn’t getting type approval as a low powered moped have concomitant obligations of insurance, licence, MOT and helmet?
No? Just looking at the info
No? Just looking at the info HoarseMann has linked, it would appear that something approved as a “250-Watt Low Powered Moped” (a sub-group of Low Powered Mopeds) necessarily meets the definition of an “Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle”, and, as per the Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle Regulations, is therefore not considered a “motor vehicle” for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act, Road Traffic Regulation Act, etc. (or any of the Regulations made that are underpinned by those Acts).
I might be wrong, but I don’t see any reason that an (approved) 250-Watt Low Powered Moped would be treated any differently in law to any other e-bike (i.e. those that do not need approval because they do not have throttle control).
As far as I could see it is
As far as I could see it is treated differently to any other ebike precisely because it is placed in the Low Powered Moped category; all the other types of vehicle in that category seem to require licence, insurance etc so I would have thought they would too. By no means certain about that though!
I guess the difference is
I guess the difference is that all the other types of vehicle in that category do not meet the definition of an EAPC and therefore are “motor vehicles” and not exempted from the various requirements?
Rendel Harris wrote:
on yer bike is correct. There is no licence, mot, insurance etc for a 250W Low Power Moped. It meets the regulations of an EAPC, so is a bicycle even though it has a throttle that takes it all the way up to 16mph without any pedalling. It’s legally just like every other pedal assist only e-bike.
Whilst the MVSA documentation for individual approval seems complex, most of the regulations don’t apply to a 250W LPM. Basically, it just needs front and rear lights, a rear red reflector and amber pedal reflectors (and curiously a stand if it weighs more than 35kg!).
Or if you can find a L1e-A type approved model that is limited to 250W and 25kph, then that is legal out of the box with a throttle. No DVSA individual approval test requirement.
Sometimes I think cyclists
Sometimes I think cyclists spend too much time getting offended over very little and this makes ‘us’ seem petulant. Ashley Neal has commented regularly in videos on driving safely around cyclists (and driving safely generally), yet here we are taking issue on semantics.
Too many cyclists on this
Too many cyclists on this site losing their minds over very little…..
PRSboy wrote:
I’m not offended so much by Ashley Neal, but now recognise him as someone who wants to stir up cyclist/motorist antagonism and he’s clearly taken the motorists’ side. His comments on driving safely may be useful, but his culture war bullshit is most definitely not welcome.
But what else would the live
But what else would the live blog be 😉
we could be discussing the impact of the collapse of the Sillicon Valley Bank on the Ef Education womens team as a sponsor
Or why the police commissioner in Norfolk says 20mph limits are just advisory. https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23368983.norfolk-police-commissioner-says-20mph-limits-advisory/
Awavey wrote:
The commissioner is right on zones isn’t he? That’s a big part if the problem. It’s also why I don’t sign up to the fairly regular campaigns for more 20mph zones near us, they are useless. I would sign up for 20mph limits and enforcement of them.
I believe technically a
I believe technically a speeding offence can’t be enforced, but I believe the police have a wide range of other options to deal with it.
Awavey wrote:
not true. Zone limits are enforceable assuming the underlying TRO is correct AND the requisite street furniture is in place.
Ok well then I believed
Ok well then I believed technically that was the case as its the exact same reasons we’ve been given by Suffolk police, though for matters of road policing they’re essentially joined at the hip with Norfolk, why they won’t enforce 20mph limits around us.
Though of course alot of the angst in Brighton lately has been about speed cameras enforcing 20mph limits.
So who knows
Awavey wrote:
zones and limits are confusingly different. One requires repeaters, the other odesnt, one can have street furniture to calm traffic, the other must. It’s a stupid mess of a system.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
zones and limits are confusingly different. One requires repeaters, the other odesnt, one can have street furniture to calm traffic, the other must. It’s a stupid mess of a system. — Awavey
Thank you, that’s helped mu understanding
I see where you are coming
I see where you are coming from, but I respectfully disagree.
The root of all the problems that cyclists face (apart from the fact that it is possible to experience a headwind in both directions, but never a tailwind…) is that we are the ‘other’ in society. We are regularly demonised, and famously as proven in a psychology study, never fully human. If we can consistently chip away at this, then we can get the infrastructure and culture we deserve.
I’d rather be seen uppity and petulant than seen as sub-human.
the little onion wrote:
I’m glad that the wind gods aren’t just after me… 😀
THB I think Ashley should
THB I think Ashley should stick to his otherwise good instruction on driving – I’m mostly with him on how to drive around cyclists but already disagree with some points here (“friendly toot” / some odd things he said about overtaking cyclists). I haven’t watched all his cycling ones but I think he’s shakier here.
He gets a nod for correcting himself when challenged (on one occasion). Overall – not too bad for someone whose business is driving…
PRSboy wrote:
Including in this video in the segment around 7.50: “There should be no reason that young kid can’t use the road. It’s our job as motorists to look after them.”
It’s obviously natural for a
It’s obviously natural for a father to want to defend his son but pretty disappointed with Mark Steel, of whom I’ve been a big fan for decades. As a good socialist he must know that bicycles are frequently the best option for the poorest people and that “jokes” like his son’s, which help to perpetuate the idea that cyclists have no place on the road, make life more dangerous and potentially deadly for them.
Plus he shouldn’t defend his son because he’s a complete dick, since his original tweet he’s been doubling down calling cyclists fascists, “modern day Nazis”, mentally ill etc. Must have been a windy day in the orchard when that apple fell from the tree.
Rendel Harris wrote:
Mark is also a Palace fan, so I am doubly disappointed. He does quite a balance routine on the mini-Holland scheme in the Walthamstow edition of Mark Steel’s in Town.
Steel is a hyperjunk press
Steel is a hyperjunk press-style thickhead, and so is Neal. I now know to avoid anything to do with either, although I doubt if I would have come across them in the normal course of things- in other words, I don’t waste any time on Twitter or hyper-junk sites.
“…..stand-up routines from
“…..stand-up routines from little-known comedians……”
Is this some new definition of comedian that isn’t in my dictionary? Definitely not a chip off the old block; Mark is very, very funny.
eburtthebike wrote:
No he isn’t 😉
Did anyone tell Elliott Steel
Did anyone tell Elliott Steel to get “On yer bike” during his drab routine?
Another day another old man
Another day another old man making cycling into the edgy counter-culture
Nepo cry-baby
Nepo cry-baby
Elliot Steel wrote:
That one has been done before, oh wait, he actually means it?! Has he heard of Godwin?
Totally sane thing to say, we can all relate to that, highly insightful… but has no basis in reality.
Sorry, was this a comedy gig? You’d think his dad would give him a few tips, it appears he doesn’t actually understand how the artform works.
I’d never heard of him to be
I’d never heard of him to be honest, doesn’t sound like I’ve missed much.
I run red lights whenever it
I run red lights whenever it is safe because doing so is safer than standing around at any intersection. But then, I am at the moment cycling in Idaho (it’s an American state) where cyclists are legally allowed to treat both red lights and stop signs as yield signs.
https://amp.idahostatesman.com/entertainment/ent-columns-blogs/words-deeds/article261171507.html
The UK just seems so backward.
And are there piles of dead
And are there piles of dead cyclists choking the intersections? I somehow doubt it or we’d have heard about it. Most road rules are there because of cars, and need not necessarily apply to cyclists, without increasing risk.
Seems logical. And you’re
Seems logical. And you’re right – the UK is backward! Compared to places which have managed to *tame the car* and retain the benefits of automobility while better managing the (huge) side-effects.
Unfortunately what we have taken from the US has generally not been positive lessons for road safety. Also the UK built environment and driving laws tend to have more similarities with Europe. So we should look there first for improvements for cycling. Particularly as several places in Europe have such good conditions that large fractions of the general public cycle at some point. Rather than 2% of trips (Uk) or rather less than that (US).
Long short – I’d be very cautious about just rewriting the law in that way. Doesn’t matter though – I’m not in charge!
cmedred wrote:
I thought it was stop signs become yield signs, and red lights become stop signs?
wycombewheeler wrote:
Red lights become stop signs, stop signs become yield signs – ergo, they both become yield signs.
Ashley Neal’s video was
Ashley Neal’s video was mostly fine. It seems to be an illegal unregistered motorbike that goes through the red lights, so he’s way off for a start and his straw-man nonsense is really unhelpful. I could say something similarly nonsensical like “Driving Instructors say that learner drivers never stop at red lights, but what do you think about this milk float holding up traffic.”
Look at the first twenty
Look at the first twenty seconds of NMOTD 854 – 3x Cyclist Running Red Lights!
Ngl I don’t see how a cyclist
Ngl I don’t see how a cyclist jumping a red light is any worse than a pedestrian crossing the road. Obviously we can all imagine a contrived scenario where the cyclist or pedestrian is reckless and causes others to have collisions, but does that actually happen?
Personally I don’t RLJ because by waiting at the light I can reduce the speed of the traffic behind me making car use less viable in my city.
Got to love Cold War Steve.
Got to love Cold War Steve. Check out his latest video for Sleaford Mods.
UK Grim
https://youtu.be/loiI8M3U7gA
Bristol cyclist fed up with
Bristol cyclist fed up with ‘pointless’ bike lane that drivers keep parking on
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-cyclist-fed-up-pointless-8247122
Turns out I’m not the only person unhappy with this cycle lane…
Fake photos; those law
Fake photos; those law-abiding drivers would never park where it’s clearly illegal.
brooksby wrote:
Just seen that myself
Are the bollards there to
Are the bollards there to stop people parking, but they just drive over them anyway?
Originally there was a
Originally there was a painted cycle lane, between parking spaces and the main traffic lane.
During the pandemic, they cancelled the parking spaces, turned the parking spaces into a cycle lane and put plastic orange wands there to protect it. People just drove over them.
Then they replaced them with more rigid wands, supposedly to better protect the lane. People still drive over them, but nowhere near as much. Even when they haven’t – when all of the wands are upright – people will park on the double yellows at either end of the lane to go to the sandwich shop or for loading, and many people (including myself) cannot see the point of being in the main traffic lane, then diving into the cycle lane for a hundred metres before having to come out into the main traffic lane again…
And, of course, because there is a protected cycle lane at each side of the road the main traffic lanes are narrower, and the motorists hate it when cyclists are riding in the main traffic lane even more than they ever did…
Interesting that straw men
Interesting that straw men are out, but ad hominem is in.
“The live blog’s favourite driving instructor/YouTuber/son of a four-time European Cup-winning full back, Ashley Neal,”
Not entirely sure what Neal’s association with football previously has to do with any of this.
Whole thing is unhlepful on many levels, but no surprise here really.
Adam Sutton wrote:
Indeed. And road.cc editors seem to have forgotten that they promised Ashley in the comments on a previous article that they would stop referring to him that way.
Neals comment was clearly a
Neals comment was clearly a flippant and sarcastic remark at the attitude of many cyclists, and he got the reaction he wanted, which is quite funny really, and predicitible. Almost as predictible as the appaling cycling standards that Vine ignores along his neck of the woods. With the tube strike today I ended up for the first time in a while cycling to Chiswick, along his route via C9, and once again a large number of cyclists simply ignored any pedestrian crossings and the lights that are specifically there for cyclists. The worst was some idiot who cycled through a tricky junction and then shouted at a car for having the temerity to go through on green. Cue bUt CarZ KiLl and a multitude of excuses.