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TECH NEWS
SRAM HRD front inc discTrek about to launch road disc equipped road bike? As Bontrager says road discs are the future
Leading bike industry figure Keith Bontrager believes that disc brakes on road bikes are the future and we believe that Bontrager’s parent company, Trek, will almost certainly be launching a disc-equipped road bike in the near future.
“The basic problem is that rim brakes for bicycles were developed around aluminum rims and rubber brake pads,” said Keith Bontrager. “All of the part dimensions, leverage, etc depend on the fundamental physical properties of those two materials. And the state of the art is pretty good.
“Now we are substituting a rim material with much less thermal capacitance and heat conductivity. That changes everything from a thermodynamic point of view.
“Disc brakes will solve that problem. They will also solve wet braking, another situation that the carbon rims performance is limited and always will be (also for fundamental reasons).
“The UCI could change the rule soon because the major component makers will have well developed braking systems available. I have no insight into whether the changes will occur at any particular point.”
We used to hear from bike industry insiders that the introduction of disc brakes in the pro peloton was at least two or three years away, but over recent weeks we’ve been told by two different wheel manufacturers (neither of them Bontrager) that they expect a shift to happen sooner than that, largely in response to changes in the senior echelons of the UCI and an apparently increased willingness to embrace technological innovation.
“Having worked with Fabian Cancellara, I’ve watched him destroy a pair of carbon rim pads in a single Vuelta stage,” Keith Bontrager said, quoted recently in Bike Biz. “From a thermodynamics point of view it was a big mess. The weight of discs on pro bikes won’t be an issue, I mean at present we’re adding weight just to meet the regulations.”
Bontrager is here referring to the UCI’s 6.8kg minimum bike weight limit. It’s not legal to race a bike that weighs less than this in a UCI sanctioned event, despite every major manufacturer having the technical capacity to build bikes considerably lighter.
With Keith Bontrager’s comments in mind, we asked Trek UK whether they had plans to release any disc-equipped road bikes in the near future.
“Since we don't have a model year any longer, we'll be introducing bikes as and when they are ready,” said Chris Garrison of Trek UK. “We are working on disc-equipped bikes and Keith Bontrager is part of that development.”
And what’s the timing on that? Trek aren’t saying on the basis that unforeseen delays can happen.
Trek do already have disc-equipped cyclocross bikes in the range, one of which is the the £2,400 Boone 5 Disc (above). The Boone bikes feature an IsoSpeed decoupler which isolates the seat tube from the rest of the frameset to provide more compliance and comfort. The obvious launch point for Trek in the disc brake road bike market would be for them to offer the existing Domane, the bike that first featured the IsoSpeed decoupler, as a disc option.
When we showed you the Trek 2014 range (the last one in which Trek will stick to a product year), some people were surprised that there was no Domane disc option included. At the time, Trek UK commented, “No disc road bikes for us right now. We are researching them, but we won't bring something to market unless we're satisfied that it's done right. We haven't reached that comfort level with disc road bike design, so nothing from us in that category at this time.”
That time could be approaching. Trek is, of course, one of the most influential bike brands in the world thanks to a large marketshare and the Trek Factory Racing WorldTour team, among other things. If they introduce disc-equipped road bikes, it’s likely to have a significant impact on the market and the future direction of road bike design.
Out at Taipei Cycle a couple of weeks ago, we reported that Reynolds is extending its range of disc brake wheels for road bikes, treating the whole disc thing as a serious shift in the market. Plenty of other wheel brands are doing something similar.
Another indication that the pros will be using discs at some stage in the not too distant future comes from the World Federation of the Sporting Goods Industry (WFSGI), a body that represents many of the major cycling manufacturers. Earlier this month we reported that the WFSGI has discussed disc brakes with Dimitris Katsanis, the new consultant to the UCI’s Equipment Commission.
“Dimitris... showed an openness towards this topic,” said Yves Mori, the WFSGI’s Communication and Bicycle Manager. “There is already a specific disc brake group inside the Technical Committee of the WFSGI and Dimitris has mentioned that he is willing to work together with this specific disc brake group to speak about the possible introduction of disc brakes in road racing.”
So, it’s looking increasingly possible that disc brakes could be introduced in pro racing in the fairly near future. Of course, the rest of us are free to ride disc brake road bikes now, whether or not they’re permitted in top-level racing, but if the pros start using discs it’ll certainly influence their popularity in the marketplace.
Mat has been in cycling media since 1996, on titles including BikeRadar, Total Bike, Total Mountain Bike, What Mountain Bike and Mountain Biking UK, and he has been editor of 220 Triathlon and Cycling Plus. Mat has been road.cc technical editor for over a decade, testing bikes, fettling the latest kit, and trying out the most up-to-the-minute clothing. He has won his category in Ironman UK 70.3 and finished on the podium in both marathons he has run. Mat is a Cambridge graduate who did a post-grad in magazine journalism, and he is a winner of the Cycling Media Award for Specialist Online Writer. Now over 50, he's riding road and gravel bikes most days for fun and fitness rather than training for competitions.
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46 comments
@crazy-legs, its normally user error or maintenance negligence
Shimano also use a retaining circlip on the threaded pin, so you'd have to lose this clip as well as not noticing the threaded pin had rotated far enough to fall free, and even then the pads would be trapped between rotor and the pad arm slot in the top of the caliper..wheel has to be removed for pads to 'fall out'
So, user error then - you hadn't checked all the nuts and bolts were tight...
That's hardly the fault of Shimano!
Hope. Well proven and made reet proper.
They do those under the stem master cylinders don't they?
Firstly, brakes "just suddenly stopping working" doesn't happen. You *might* rip a hydraulic hose out of the caliper in the event of a crash but you'd notice that.
Secondly, you just adapt to braking forces. I swap quite happily between a track bike (no brakes), road bikes (caliper brakes), CX (disc) and MTB (disc) all the time and I never have a problem adjusting braking input to compensate for terrain, speed or types of brakes.
This is all existing technology, it's been around on MTBs (and cars) for decades. OK so SRAM had a problem with some manufacturing tolerances leading to a disc brake recall but the basic tech is there (and they're fixing their problem so all good there).
It's like the debate when MTBs went from canti -> V-brake -> disc or when bikes went from 7 -> 8 -> 9 ->10 speed. All sorts of doom-mongering about crashing due to brakes being too strong or wheels failing due to the extra dish required for wider cassettes or the usual "oh you don't need it..." from all the traditionalists.
Honestly, it's a wonder some people get out of bed in a morning if they're that worried about stuff!
Firstly, brakes "just suddenly stopping working" doesn't happen. You *might* rip a hydraulic hose out of the caliper in the event of a crash but you'd notice that.
Err, yes - all brakes, including rim brakes, can fail catastrophically. In all the time I've been using disc brakes it's happened to me once, on a hired bike, and for your information:
Yes, quite happy to control my speed on a pretty scary, arse-over-the-back-wheel descent with only a front brake. Much happier than I'd have been with only a rear brake.
This particular unlikely failure could just as easily happen to a rim brake. Of course, hydraulic brakes are immune from this particular failure, unless you're prone to cycling in areas where the temperature is less than -40.
I can understand worries about cooking hydraulic rear discs if you're using a very minimal 140mm rotor, but even that is possible to design out (see Shimano's cooling fins). They may be heavier (debatable) and less aerodynamic (again, debatable - I've not seen hard figures), but those are the prices you'll pay for more reliable and controllable stopping (or not, if you don't want to).
Disc brakes are at least as reliable than rim brakes (more, if you count the fact that they will reliably stop you in the wet). The idea that the introduction of disc brakes to road bikes will cause a sudden increase in catastrophic failures is just luddite scare-mongering.
Not really, the reason for the failure was that the cable ran along the chain stay then turned up at the end, doing so giving a nice entry for water and no way of it draining back out.
Ask Shimano about melting ice tech rotors.
To be honest i would never use Avid, but my real statement is i would be far happier on hydro than cable. But will the option exist without splashing out on Di2?
Yet another Trek that's about as exciting as a beige sofa.
I've got through a pair of rim pads in a day before - rubbish weather, gritty roads, hard riding with lots of hills, it's easily done. And re warping a rotor - discs have been in common use on MTBs now for 20 years, how many rotors have you seen warped? If it ever does happen it's almost always cos the rider has squirted water on them after a long descent. And besides, you just take it off and put a new one on at a cost of £30 rather than at a cost of a new wheel when you've worn through the rim with your braking.
At European pro CX racing, each pro has at least 3 bikes, quite often up to 6. Each bike has about 3 sets of wheels. At the moment, there simply isn't the stock of disc brake componentry - SRAM all got recalled, Shimano hydraulics are currently only available with Di2 which is too expensive to be giving away 6 full Di2 groupsets per rider. So they'll chop and change as necessary.
Presume you're talking about CX racers here seeing as you can't road race on discs... How many CX racers do you know, how many have told you they're not happy with their discs? I'd be fascinated to hear how your anecdotal information based on what must be a handful of riders should shape the future of disc brake usage.
I've got discs on my CX bike and they're SO much better than the cantis I had on my old CX. Totally reliable consistent and powerful braking no matter what the weather or the terrain. And it's controllable power, very good modulation. Much later braking into corners so I'm faster. The bike weighs less than 20lb so still a perfectly reasonable weight. No rim wear, no cable stretch, they're virtually maintenance free.
Now I'd like the same on my road bike please!
Companies will sell a whole lot more carbon wheels to yer average riders, because of lack of rim wear. That's about the main thing I can see coming out of this.
I don't see disc brake pad alignment on wheel swaps being an issue, pro's leave their calipers wide open on pretty much every picture I see of hem anyway.
The obvious solution is to not bother putting any pads in
Wheel swaps will be the issue. And neutral wheels - the one or two times a year they actually get used - will be a problem. I know at least one DS who thinks that unless they can be swapped out as fast and as simply as existing wheels possible braking advantage won't be enough.
At the moment they want to push them as pro choices but unless they become pro choices they won't work for the high street. It's a tricky one.
I'm pleased I'm not the only one to see / hear this.
Last time I mentioned it, I got shot down in flames!
Can't see an issue with wheel swaps any more than now.
I do to some extent see the point of wanting everyone on the same. My discs mean that should I want to I brake a lot later as they stop better. I have yet to reach the limits of the tyres in the dry. As riders don't all corner at the same speed some are bound to be heading in slower, faster or just different.
Despite that I would say that it is the riders problem. No one but them has a responsibility to be careful.
There are plenty of issues, beginning with the pain in the arse that is getting wheels to go in and not catch on the pads. Moving on to, WTF can't the manufacturers agree on some common standards! why is it that no two hubs have the disc in the same place and no two frames have the calliper in the same place!!! closely followed by what size rotor shall we use!
Oh i forgot, how many BB "standards" are there!!!!
On the neutral service issue, inadvertently progress has happened, all 11spd cassettes are compatible, so you only need to have one set of neutral wheels for all three drivetrain manufacturers.
Contrary to popular belief which is not discouraged by the industry, the same is true of 10spd, and 8spd for that matter, it is only 9spd which doesn't work together without much bodgery. I am currently running Campag 10spd and it works the same with both my wheelsets, although one has a Shimano style freehub and a Sram cassette.
Carbon brake pads melting after a single day? How about a disc rotor warping halfway through the same day?
The carbon braking myth is exactly that. Use good brake pads, i.e. Swiss Stop, and your braking on carbon rims is better than alloys in the dry, and comparable in the wet.
Plus riddle me this. Why do all the big CX pros start their races on discs then, after a couple laps, switch to cantis? If discs are so great, why aren't they using them through the whole race?
Finally, every racer I know who rides disc is not particularly happy with their disc bikes. There's probably a difference in the layup of material that changes the frame's behavior, so until this is sorted then I don;t see pros choosing discs (unless they were paid to do so).
There are good combinations of rims, brakes and pads and there are bad ones - both in material type and brand, make and model. Your comment is, i'd suggest, at best simplistic - more realistically i'd say look up 'not even wrong'.
They are.
Firstly they are paid to ride the bikes they're given. Secondly, do you really know a non-trivial amount of road racers running disc ? Seriously ?
When all is said and done, you are just trolling, aren't you.
No rear tyres were harmed in the making of this video!
nice vid
I don't get the point on it's safe if everyone has the same type of brakes on the road.
A 100 kg rider will have to brake earlier and harder for the same corner as a 60 kg rider regardless of the braking system, riders around them will adjust their braking as required.
If the internet is to be believed a rider on carbon rims will never stop while someone with alloy rims will stop on a sixpence (this is not based on fact and may be a tiny exaggeration, I cannot justify carbon rims to find out).
So brakes in the peleton now are not equal. They cannot be.
There's also how braking force is applied, a rider who's a more confident descender will use their brakes in a different way to someone less confident.
To try to prove the point watch this, I've been lucky enough to ride down the same road, with brakes. I bet he was faster without (pit stop not withstanding).
http://vimeo.com/59996430
Edit: Dave beat me to it but the video is worth watching anyway
i don't buy the whole 'equal braking' argument at all. i don't remember the UCI kicking up a fuss when some riders were on carbon rims and some were on alloy. anyway, andy schleck and vicenzo nibali will never have equal braking. even with the same brakes
quite right, ridiculous argument. Stopping depends on how hard you brake not what brakes your using. In a peloton any experienced racer will brake as little as possible, no one is slamming on the anchors!
All I can do, is quote limited experience, riding a mountain bike with roadies, you have to be very aware you will brake far faster than the rider behind you! As long as you don't panic brake it isn't an issue.
On club runs there are riders on discs, and riders on calipers, no one has crashed because of that yet, plenty of other reasons mind!
Interesting to read all this. I've had discs ever since I've had a road bike... Had a 2006 model Trek (so they've actually been there already) Portland until last summer when the frame cracked, but still run discs having transferred everything across to a Cotic Roadrat frame. The discs are Avid bb7s.
Every time I've had the chance to use a road bike with standard rim brakes it's scared the crap out of me how much less effective they are!
The lifetime of the pads and the ease of adjusting them is great too. Only drag is the noise if the disc isn't well centred (this is easy enough to rectify though) or becomes slightly untrue (age, replace).
Whatever the terrain or weather they certainly inspire confidence! Makes sense for them to become the norm over the next 4-5 years.
My question for adoption of disc brakes at a pro level is how are they going to get the rotor spacing right on all the neutral support wheels, with any number of wheel, brake and component makers, so that the rotors won't rub? I feel like teams won't use discs until this is sorted out.
Anyway, I'm sure there are people much brighter than me working on a solution right now.
Great.
And when they work out and easy way to true the damn things...
Wee bit confused... if you're talking about centring the disc in the pads, then that's been available for decades. If not, could you describe what type of truing you mean - new calipers or something ?
I really don't understand the fixation with the pro peloton and the 6.8 kg weight limit. Changing the limit to 5.5 kg or whatever will change nothing... apart from prompting wannabes and overweight MAMILs to 'upgrade' their machines.
The widespread adoption of discs on road bikes can IMHO only be a good thing for the people who live (and ride) in the real world. Those who have used them that I have spoken to or read about have no desire to revert to using rim brakes.
I thought the weight limit was to reduce cost to the teams, same as all frames had to be double diamond no fancy one piece carbon stays etc. The issue with the pro-peleton as menationed in another post would be the logistics of the neutral service. Will the UCI make it compulsary for all to use discs, even so with Campag/Sram/Shimano blocks and 140 or 160 discs thats 6 different wheels for the back plus one or two for the front. Then you got to centre the caliper on the disc.
Time will tell. Although I see no reason why us mere mortals have to wait for the pro's before we go disc.
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