“Try listening to those who take bikes on trains”: Vertical cycle storage design concept criticised; How bikes on trains should be done; Virgin Galactic admits Branson’s pre-flight bike ride didn’t happen; Expensive fan; Sir Cav? + more on the live blog

23 thoughts on ““Try listening to those who take bikes on trains”: Vertical cycle storage design concept criticised; How bikes on trains should be done; Virgin Galactic admits Branson’s pre-flight bike ride didn’t happen; Expensive fan; Sir Cav? + more on the live blog”

1. ScotRail seem to have done a

   ScotRail seem to have done a good job with their bike carriage design on the Highland line.

   https://road.cc/content/news/267921-scotrail-unveils-forthcoming-west-highland-line-carriages-space-20-bikes

    

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2. There’s a lot of advice out

   There’s a lot of advice out there on what makes good bike parking. Bike spaces on a train should follow the exact same principals – just inside a carriage rather than inside (or outside) a building.

   I guess this goes without saying, but another major obstacle to taking a bike on a train is the booking process. Every different operator has their own system, and (as far as I can tell) none of those systems are at all good.

   This is compounded by the lack of spaces – intercity trains with capacity for hundreds of passengers but only two bike spaces means it is literally impossible for groups of 3+ to all travel together with bikes; and nigh on impossible for one or two people unless booked months in advance. Not to mention if you miss you train (or it is cancelled, or a connecting train is delayed) you’re royally screwed. As a foot passenger, you might have to buy a new ticket but at least you almost certainly can hop on the next train.

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   • The booking process, at least

     The booking process, at least, should be rationalised if the Williams Review of UK rail structure is implemented, as the government seems keen to do – it recommends a unified national booking system covering all operators.re

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3. Not to mention, try getting

   Not to mention, try getting someone that isn’t particular strong to lift a >20Kg bike up onto one of those things

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4. Just like transport itself,

   Just like transport itself, designing for bicycles has a multitude of people with no knowledge, experience or qualifications coming up with genius ideas which fall at the first hurdle.  All the comments on that Proteus cycle parking are accurate, and the design has so many drawbacks that it would instantly be discarded in any country where cycling is mainstream.

   The fact that it has won and gone through to the next stage means that it will gain more support amongst people who make decisions but don’t cycle, more energy and resources will be thrown into it, and it will become too big to fail; then they will consult with cyclists, when it’s too late.  They’ll be installed with fanfares and publicity, and then there will be complaints because the awkward damn cyclists won’t use them.  Five years later they’ll be taken out and the space will be just normal seats, and cyclists will be ignored.

   There are so many examples of people “doing things for cyclists” without actually consulting cyclists, and then getting upset when they fail that it might be worth writing a book about it.  Bridge and road design, cycle parking, routes etc, etc all consulted on when the design is already fixed and it’s too late to change anything.

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   • eburtthebike wrote:

     There are so many examples of people “doing things for cyclists” without actually consulting cyclists, and then getting upset when they fail that it might be worth writing a book about it.  Bridge and road design, cycle parking, routes etc, etc all consulted on when the design is already fixed and it’s too late to change anything.

     — eburtthebike

     This!   My workplace has just completed a major refurb of the offices, including put in place secure offstreet bike parking, modern shower blocks, drying room.  However, they have decided that lockers will be for ‘day use’ only, meaning it won’t be possible to leave anything at work overnight/between days in the office, not even somewhere to leave toiletries, shoes etc.  So they have basically created a completely unnecessay barrier to cycling.  I will be starting a petition as soon as possible when we return to the office next week! 

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     • TonyE-H wrote:

        

       This!   My workplace has just completed a major refurb of the offices, including put in place secure offstreet bike parking, modern shower blocks, drying room.  However, they have decided that lockers will be for ‘day use’ only, meaning it won’t be possible to leave anything at work overnight/between days in the office, not even somewhere to leave toiletries, shoes etc.  So they have basically created a completely unnecessay barrier to cycling.  I will be starting a petition as soon as possible when we return to the office next week! 

       — TonyE-H

       This kind of thing happens all teh time. A designer (knowledge worker, creative, yeuch) will put forward a design, and also a list of requirements for the design to be supported.

       Someone up teh chain will look at the list, spot something (say, I dunno, overnight lockers) and go “I don’t like that, why is that necessary?” and strike it off. Note the rhetorical question, with no intention of actually asking the one who designed it or included it in requirements.

       The designer is in no place to influence the management or implementation, and takes it on trust that their design won’t be made unusable once built, by people who just want to make a decision, any decision.

        

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5. Those Copenhagen trains are

   Those Copenhagen trains are brilliant. When it’s not busy, you can use one of the wheel slots and then sit watching over it. When it gets busy, bikes get packed in like sardines and it ends up being a logistics problem to get out of the door when you reach your station.

   I don’t get why bike storage designers don’t just go and ask an experienced cyclist.

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   • hawkinspeter wrote:

     Those Copenhagen trains are brilliant. When it’s not busy, you can use one of the wheel slots and then sit watching over it. When it gets busy, bikes get packed in like sardines and it ends up being a logistics problem to get out of the door when you reach your station.

     I don’t get why bike storage designers don’t just go and ask an experienced cyclist.

     — hawkinspeter

     Because they want to be able to say “there, cycle box ticked” without actually applying time budget or effort to it….

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     • Actually its more likely “not

       Actually its more likely “not invented here syndrome”.  I see it all the time in my job.  Most people – particularly “knowledge workers” and “creatives” are unable to lay their ego’s aside long enough to check whether someone else might have already solved the problem for them.

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       • Secret_squirrel wrote:

         Actually its more likely “not invented here syndrome”.  I see it all the time in my job.  Most people – particularly “knowledge workers” and “creatives” are unable to lay their ego’s aside long enough to check whether someone else might have already solved the problem for them.

         — Secret_squirrel

         Sounds like we need a ‘StackExchange syndrome’ – just google for a solution and copy/paste it.

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6. In defence of these – and it

   In defence of these – and it’s a very half-hearted defence because I agree with everything that has been said – there isn’t really a good solution.

   Obviously, a separate carriage with lots of space for bikes is needed – a guards van or something nicer like in Copenhagen. But commuter trains, at least on the main lines into London, are already the maximum length the platforms on the routes allow (and sometimes signalling and even track layout constrain the train length too, which is a harder problem to solve). This makes adding a bike carriage impossible, and replacing a normal carriage with a bike one would be unpopular given how crowded they all are normally.

   (Or rather, were before the pandemic. I assume they will go back to previous loadings in the next year or two, If they don’t, then that makes it a lot easier).

   So some way of allowing space to be used for commuters in peak hour trains, and bikes off-peak, while not helpful for would-be cycling commuters, does have some benefits.

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7. Guard’s van were great on

   Guard’s van were great on Virgin East Coast, back in the good old days. Popular, always several bikes, helpful staff. I see so many bikes not fitting whateve fancy designs they try.

   How do the designs meet disability rules? Some cyclists cannot walk well.

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   • In the good old-old days, you

     In the good old-old days, you could even get a motorbike onboard with no fuss…

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8. After over 40 years of car

   After over 40 years of car ownership, my wife and I took the decision last year to go car-less. Our daily transport is a tandem or our solo bikes, plus a cargo bike for shopping. This means that to cover large distances in a day we will need to use trains. The system in the UK is hopeless. Different service providers with different policies, some you can book with, others you can’t. Want to take a tandem? Forget it. We’re getting a frame made with couplings so at least we can split it in two which will make it more feasible on some services, and enable us to hire a car if necessary and put it the back. Train and bike is the perfect combination, bike for the short local journey and train for the long distances. It was simple when we had guard’s vans. Privatisation of the railways has been a disaster with profit being the number one priority which has only served to encourage more car usage where less profitable services have been removed. We need to see transport as necessary service, such as water, sewage treatment and electricity and have some joined up thinking as to how it can be provided for all, not just those who can afford a car or who don’t give a toss about the climate emergency.

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9. I almost missed my stop cos I

   I almost missed my stop cos I couldn’t get my tyres out of GWR’s stupidly small bike hooks. Had to let the tyre down. My heart has rarely raced so fast. All whilst the conducter glared at me as if it was my fault.

   Just a normal mountain bike! I wasn’t even on my big bike with 2.5″s on fat carbon rims. Absolutely sick of feeling like a third class passenger for daring to using a bike to complete my journeys. The highland train looks pretty good, but of course they already worked this stuff out in europe years ago. Love that copenhagen train.

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   • chunky wrote:

     I almost missed my stop cos I couldn’t get my tyres out of GWR’s stupidly small bike hooks. Had to let the tyre down. My heart has rarely raced so fast. All whilst the conducter glared at me as if it was my fault.

     Just a normal mountain bike! I wasn’t even on my big bike with 2.5″s on fat carbon rims. Absolutely sick of feeling like a third class passenger for daring to using a bike to complete my journeys. The highland train looks pretty good, but of course they already worked this stuff out in europe years ago. Love that copenhagen train.

     — chunky

     How did you manage to get the bike hooked, if you had to let the tyres down to unhook it?

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     • By smacking it in with my

       By smacking it in with my fist. I was trying to be a good boy and securely store it. Well done GWR, I won’t be doing that next time.

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       • Ha!  Clearly GWR thinks every

         Ha!  Clearly GWR thinks every one of those lycra clad Chris Froome wannabes rides a 20mm tyre at 300psi…  Or something like that 

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10. Highland bike carriages – a

    Highland bike carriages – a bizzillion ton carriage for 100kg worth of bikes. Really?

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    • You’re saying the bikes ought
      You’re saying the bikes ought to weigh more? Because…?

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11. I used the Cross Country bike

    I used the Cross Country bike storage option recently, and it was fine. Don’t book your ticket without first booking a space for your bike using their messenger chat, it only takes 5 minutes and you will be given a reference. Else you may find you cannot board the train with bike. The storage was fine but bring a small bungee to tie it against grab rail else it will swing wildly in its vertical position. The provided straps are a faff to reach once the bike is on the hook. 

    I vote the Copenhagen option, that looks perfect. The Proteus is ridiculously unworkable.

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    • Muddy Ford wrote:

      I used the Cross Country bike storage option recently, and it was fine. Don’t book your ticket without first booking a space for your bike using their messenger chat, it only takes 5 minutes and you will be given a reference.

      — Muddy Ford

      Only takes five minutes? Are they writing it down in longhand using block capitals and a crayon?  Should be fully automatic and take five seconds max.

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