The Israel-Premier Tech cycling team have been confronted by pro-Palestine activists ahead of the Tour of Britain, with further protests expected at each of the stages this week.
In a video posted on Instagram by the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign (SPSC), an activist is seen approaching staff at one of the team’s cars in the Scottish Borders town Peebles yesterday evening, ahead of the British stage race getting underway in Kelso today.
An Israel-Premier Tech spokesperson told road.cc the team remains “excited to race” and “respects everyone’s right to free speech so the protests that are expected at the Tour of Britain do not pose a problem”.
Pro-Palestine campaign groups Show Israel the Red Card, Scottish Friends of Palestine, Scottish Sport for Palestine, and the SPSC called on British Cycling to remove the team from the race, with protests planned at each of the stages, including one in Kelso this morning. The groups have also reportedly emailed British Cycling CEO Jon Dutton calling for the team’s exclusion.
Last night, Israel-Premier Tech staff were approached by an activist accusing them of “sportswashing”, the practice of using sport to redirect public attention away from unethical conduct, the activist asking if they had “anything to say about your owner supporting a genocide?”
There was no response from the staff who got in the team car and were seen driving off. In March, we reported that Israel-Premier Tech had removed the Israel name from its vehicles as a “precautionary measure”, the UCI ProTour team of Chris Froome and Michael Woods insisting that they “continue to race proudly as Israel – Premier Tech”.
Scottish Borders SPSC Chair Elisa Smith said: “The ICJ has ruled that the situation in Gaza is a ‘plausible case for genocide’ and that Israel is operating a system of apartheid in Palestine.
“Israel Premier Tech’s primary objective is that when you hear ‘Israel’ you don’t think of IOF [Israel Occupation Forces] snipers paralysing athletes, 16,000 dead children in Gaza, or the raping of Palestinian detainees.
“Instead, they want you to focus on Chris Froome making a record-breaking time or Tel Aviv’s rooftop bars, as evidenced by Israel’s Tourism Board team jerseys and their social media feed. The team and its ownership certainly don’t want people to think of Gaza’s Paralympic cycling team, Gaza Sunbirds, which is made up of amputees who’ve lost their limbs as a result of Israeli aggression.”
The activist was seen offering the staff a Palestinian flag, asking: “You don’t want to put this on your car?”
“Cycling is sportswashing,” the SPSC activist added. “What you are doing is sportswashing […] why have you taken Israel off your team car? Because you guys know, don’t you? That you’re supporting a genocide.”
The SPSC post also states: “Join us tomorrow, 3rd September, in Kelso to protest British Cycling’s shameful inclusion of the war criminal state in the Tour of Britain! Say no to sports washing genocide!”
Explaining the protests, Maree Shepherd of Show Israel the Red Card told The National: “There can be no business as usual if you choose to ignore the plight of Palestinians and partner with the perpetrating occupying regime, Israel, as it carries on with the wholesale destruction of every aspect of Palestinian life.
“From football to the Olympics and now cycling, we are sick of our beloved sports being tainted by the inclusion of Israeli teams, many of whom serve in the Israeli army and facilitate the abuse of Palestinians through the decades-long military occupation and war.
“Israel can no longer get away with committing atrocity after atrocity. Neither can anyone who attempts to sportswash it.”
Similar protests are planned for the rest of the week as the race travels south through England, Big Ride for Palestine and Sheffield Palestine Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid hosting one in Sheffield ahead of Thursday’s third stage.
“British Cycling, Sheffield City Council, and the South Yorkshire Mayor make themselves complicit in the war crimes, genocide and apartheid of Israel clearly identified by the International Court of Justice,” Jonny Feldman of both campaign groups said.
In January, Chris Froome appeared in an official Israel state video promoting a cycling event to support Gaza hostages. The video was posted by official Israel accounts and the Israel Foreign Ministry on social media.
Three months later activists called for protests against the team after Froome’s wife deleted her social media accounts after launching a series of posts, one stating that Muslims are a “drain on modern society”.
The agent and wife of Chris Froome said Muslims were “here to take over” and claimed “there are no innocent Gazans” during a string of social media posts, with the UCI ProTeam distancing itself from “comments made by third parties”.
In March, the team told us they had removed mention of Israel from team vehicles as a “precautionary measure” following safety advice from “European police authorities”.
“We continue to race proudly as Israel – Premier Tech with the team name and Israel branding on the racing kit as it was in previous years. As previously stated, the team adopted a number of precautionary measures ahead of the 2024 season,” a spokesperson told us.
“The decision was made to use the IPT monogram, comprised of the Star of David and the Premier Tech ‘PT’, on the team vehicles and other branded elements. The team monogram has been an integral part of the Israel – Premier Tech brand identity since 2023 when it was first adopted on the back of the team jersey and this vehicle branding has been on display since IPT’s first races in Europe in February this year.”
100 thoughts on “Israel-Premier Tech cycling team confronted by pro-Palestine group at Tour of Britain, with more protests planned this week”
If Russian teams are banned,
If Russian teams are banned, Israeli should be too.
No no, the Russians invaded
No no, the Russians invaded but the Israelis are just doing some policing … er, the other way round, the Israelis are only conducting a special limited military operation but the Russians are … er, well the Russians are trying to conquer and take over land, but members of the Israeli government say that … er … I mean the Israelis are clearly defending themselves against a terrorist threat, which is what the Russians say … er… and the Ukrainians…
TBH if getting political in sport, we’re going to need bigger, colder shoulder pads. And we probably won’t be sending our own teams everywhere either.
Some aspects are fairly clear
Some aspects are fairly clear-cut though. Russia was and is the aggressor. Israel was the victim of an appalling, unjustifiable attack last October, and a number of Israelis ars still being held hostage.
The facts there are all true.
The facts there are all true.
But according to a more experienced friend of mine who had “been to the wars” (including Israel and the occupied territories) within hours of the first killing justifications (“morality” if you will) become extremely local and partisan. At that point it’s just people on either side trying to survive and get through their day, while others are threatening or killing your brothers, sisters, children, parents, friends… Or locking them up and abusing them. Adding insult to injury becomes just “process”.
And in Israel and the occupied territories the latest round (if it makes sense to drawing a line anywhere) started (checks notes) almost 80 years ago. Everyone can point at something and say “they started it!” Or “how can anyone justify what they did there?”
But there wasn’t any war in
But there wasn’t any war in Ukraine until the Russians invaded it. The “morality” was quite straightforward. I don’t think the situation there is really comparable to the one in the Middle East.
(trying to return it to the
(trying to return it to the topic – banning sportspeople) The morality at an individual level? Unless we’re banning Russians / Israelis (are there any Palestinians racing – if so we could apply the same) etc. because they, personally, are immoral people, we’re dealing with politics. “But they support the regime!” Well… maybe more, maybe less, maybe they are willing cheerleaders, maybe they have less choice in the matter.
In politics “morality” is a different thing and clearly involves our own (national) interests.
FWIW I think they’re very different situations – but sadly “give it time…”. And while from (most…) Western perspectives the Russian invasion is far clearer to make judgements on it seems that’s not so clear in e.g. Africa / Latin America, some parts of South-East Asia…
Whether a country/its
Whether a country/its government has committed an immoral act, and whether athletes from a country deemed to have committed an immoral act should consequently be banned from competition, are two separate questions.
What some Africans etc. might think about the situation in Ukraine strikes me as wholely irrelevant.
john_smith wrote:
It is … but doesn’t that make your opinion and mine the same?
Ultimately it’s on the sport’s governing bodies – but those are leant on by governments (or have to adhere to rules from same). Again – apparently not all countries in the world agree (in either case), nor is it even “the vast majority” etc.
Not quite the same, since our
Not the same, since our country’s involvement is bigger than that of most African etc. countries. Also, UK citizens have a say in what the government etc. gets up to, even if it is a small and indirect one. That’s not a privilege everyone in Africa, Latin America etc. enjoys.
But more to the point, there are a few basic moral questions I have made my mind up about, and while other people’s ideas might be of interest in themselves, I wouldn’t expect to be influenced by them (e.g. Taliban and their ilk on women, etc., Putin and other fascists on many things).
You’re right about the last,
You’re right about the last, at the end of the day I am right (because I am satisfied I have adequately considered these matters, have first hand experience and/or have sought sufficient evidence etc.). And frankly – time is limited.
Same goes for you of course. And others. Which is often a cause of disagreements, fights, war …
I guess we can be grateful we are in a place and time where violence is often tempered (bar recent riots, fairly prevalent domestic violence etc). And our neighbours don’t come reiving across the border and the laird doesn’t clear us off our crofts. And if I disagree with the policies of the bigwigs I can even publically object without being brutalised (usually).
john_smith wrote:
Yet people here are happy to see uae, bahrain racing without cenusre or protest. Go figure.
BTW, Palestinian cyclists are
BTW, Palestinian cyclists are not able to race because they are not able to participate in interantional events due to Israel’s occupatin of their land and restrictions on their travel. They are not able to train due to the many restrictions on their movements and real risks to their physical security from settlers and the IDF. Many have lost limbs due to the work of Israeli snipers who deliberately target atheletes. Do you think there are many ‘Palestinians racing’ in Gaza given that it has been completely destroyed and virtually everyone has been displaced. Would you think about cycle training there??
I just put that as I don’t
I just put that as I don’t know. It is extremely difficult for them even if the place was safe and infrastucture wasn’t degraded (which was the case even before the recent events). And it wouldn’t surprise me at all to find Israel – or even other countries making it harder for political reasons.
However for example a few Palestinians competed – under their own flag – at the Olympics. As they have since 1996.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_at_the_2024_Summer_Olympics
chrisonabike wrote:
BTW, Palestinian cyclists are not able to race because they are not able to participate in interantional events due to Israel’s occupatin of their land and restrictions on their travel. They are not able to train due to the many restrictions on their movements and real risks to their physical security from settlers and the IDF. Many have lost limbs due to the work of Israeli snipers who deliberately target atheletes. Do you think there are many ‘Palestinians racing’ in Gaza given that it has been completely destroyed and virtually everyone has been displaced. Would you think about cycle training there??
There was – started 2014 when
There was – started 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea.
But only then.
But only then.
john_smith wrote:
F*ck off troll
dubwise wrote:
Is that you lance?
As disgusting and abhorent as
As disgusting and abhorent as the October attack was, you need an incredibly narrow view of that situation to justify what Israel have done before and since.
Gbjbanjs wrote:
So they should have turned the other cheek? Accepted, shrugged and moved on? Would you have been happy with the UK adopting that approach during the Troubles or was it acceptable then?
The UK decided to negotiate
The UK decided to negotiate with its sworn enemy the IRA and that brought an end to the Troubles. Or do you think that was also a mistake?
ErnieC wrote:
So they should have turned the other cheek? Accepted, shrugged and moved on? Would you have been happy with the UK adopting that approach during the Troubles or was it acceptable then?— Gbjbanjs
The UK decided to negotiate with its sworn enemy the IRA and that brought an end to the Troubles. Or do you think that was also a mistake?
Crazyhorse wrote:
Eventually …… after many years and after how many civilians killed by the UK?
A good 30-35,000 of the
A good 30-35,000 of the reported deaths can be accounted for exclusively with with the natural death rate (c6,000 a year in previous years) and 30,000 fighters (still leaves 25,000 fighters). The alternate estimate of civilian casualties is as low as 2,500 with many of those purposefully used as human shields by Hamas.
open_roads wrote:
Actually a recent Lancet study estimates total fatalities as a result of this conflict could be as high as 186,000. That is including the many thousands estimated to have died in agony, alone, trapped in the rubble. See: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext#%20
Do you have a source for your estimate of just 2,500 dead please?
open_roads wrote:
The reported deaths as of the end of last month were 42,000 as a direct result of Israeli action, they do not include natural deaths. More than 16,000 of those were children and more than 10,000 were women. By your reckoning that must mean at least that 13,500 of the children killed and all of the women were terrorists? The human shield accusation is ludicrous, there are more than two million people in the Gaza strip with a population density equivalent to that of central London. Since the beginning of the current conflict Israel has fired over 50,000 bombs and missiles into this territory, civilian casualties are inevitable and claiming that there are only 2500 is ludicrous. It’s simply impossible to carry out such mass bombing in such a densely populated area without killing very substantial numbers of civilians. If you believe that Israel’s actions are justified and proportionate that’s fine, we can debate that, but simply lying about the results of them doesn’t help your case.
Er, correct me if I’m wrong
Er, correct me if I’m wrong but…
Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian territory since at least 1967 as per subsequent UN Security Council resolutions following the 1967 war demanding an Israeli withdrawal. Israel has illegally occupied Palestinian territory for 57 years – FAR longer than Russia’s (current) occupation of parts of Ukraine. In fact, Israel has been forcibly occupying Palestinian territories, including as a result of ethnic cleansing, since 1948 (i.e. for 76 years). Some might call that ‘acts of aggression’??
john_smith wrote:
Israel is the aggressor. Unless you somehow believe history in Palestine only started on October 7th, 2023. And even if want you believe that, the Israeli response has horrifically over the top and genocidal – unlawful, and a crime against humanity.
One day, Netanyahu, Gallant, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, and on down to the Sde Teiman celebrity-rapist soldier, et al, will hopefully face justice at Den Haag, and spend the rest of their days in Scheveningen prison.
Where they /won’t/ be raped, beaten, put in stress positions and generally tortured; but will get more than enough food and drinks. Unlike the many tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians who Israel puts in prison.
Disgusting behaviour. How can
Disgusting behaviour. How can anyone support those child murdering, women r**ping, Palestinian terr0rists? I’ve never seen any Israelis celebrating death, murder and r*pe in the streets; such despicable acts. Keep your terr0rist supporting under the rocks where you belong.
Really don’t want to get
Really don’t want to get drawn in* either way but you may not be well informed:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/watch-far-right-israelis-celebrate-gaza-kids-deaths/
In any intense relationship (e.g. conflicts) over time the participants very often come to do the same things. Of course each side will say that what they did was “in no way comparable to” and their actions were “necessary” etc.
* The Middle East conflicts are one of the examplars of things it’s almost impossible to mention without getting drawn into argument – and also of “who is not with us is against us”.
You may want to look up some
You may want to look up some of the reports from ex IDF soldiers when it comes to atrocities. Different ways the atrocities happen, same end result for innocent people on either side. Huge disparity in numbers of victims on each side.
alexuk wrote:
Yet another troll, f*ck off
Look in the mirror, you’ll
Look in the mirror, you’ll see the troll.
alexuk wrote:
Please, inform everyone how every Palestinian is a child-murdering rapist and terrorist.
Generalizations are stupid. I guess you’ve outed yourself on that point, alexuk.
Israel’s leadership cannot
Israel’s leadership cannot keep their people safe. 07 Oct showed that. They have no real solution. They are deluding their own people in suggesting Hamas can be eliminated. The only way to mutual security is through a negotiated settlement which has the consent of the Palestinian people. No amount of hatred and bile will change that basic fact, however unpalateable it may seem.
alexuk wrote:
You’re blind to many news reports then. Writing messages on bombs, setting up deckchairs to watch explosions, “there are no innocents in Gaza” etc – all celebrating death, murder and even rape, more recently. With 18,000 dead kids in Gaza and over 3000 illegally detained Palestinian hostages, I’d say Israel is winning on the terror front.
The hostages held by Hamas
The hostages held by Hamas were reasonably well treated – by the accounts of those released. Most of the civilians were released fairly early on, the remaining held are largely Israeli military members – prisoners of war.
Israel detains circa 10,000 Palestinians. Many many more than Israeli detainees in Hamas hands. Israel detains civilians, including doctors, children. Israel detains many many children, at least hundreds. Israel practices systematic torture – including sexual assault – against these detainees, including the children.
When Israeli military police tried to arrest some of the rapists, there were protests, and the rapist soldiers were defended by top-level ministers. One of the rapist soldiers is now a celebrity in Israel.
In short, everything you accuse Hamas of, there is little evidence of – bar that they hold hostages (at a fraction of the number Israel holds). While rape, assault of children, etc., are all well-documented practices by *Israel* – over many *DECADES*.
“The hostages held by Hamas
“The hostages held by Hamas were reasonably well treated – by the accounts of those released.”
Drivel.
Nice bit of hostage washing
Nice bit of hostage washing by the “activists”.
Free Palestine ??
Free Palestine ??
Freed from what? The
Freed from what? The overwhelming majority of Palestinians support Hamas’ charter objective to murder all Jews. A significant promotion of the UN’s local staff share their views and were “hands on” with hostage taking and keeping,
What has also been noticeable in many of the hostage reports is the depravity and wickedness of “normal” Palestinians towards hostages – including the many Palestinian women who have no greater aspiration for their kids than to be “martyred” murdering Jews.
There’s also a good reason the Egyptians and Jordanians don’t want Palestinians in their countries – and it’s that they bring murder and trouble with them.
Yes, many Palestinians are
Yes, many Palestinians are willing to die to liberate their country from occupation. If our country were occupied its liberation could only be achieved if many of us felt the same.
“The overwhelming majority of
“The overwhelming majority of Palestinians support Hamas’ charter objective to murder all Jews. A significant promotion of the UN’s local staff share their views and were “hands on” with hostage taking and keeping,”
Citation needed / fact check anyone?
Interesting. So if you’re
Interesting. So if you’re British, then you’re responsible for all the negative effects of colonialism. I see.
You do realize, don’t you, that Hamas is responsible for the hostage-taking, not all Palestinians, right? Or maybe you just can’t be bothered by such important differences.
Psi Squared wrote:
Israeli genocide is happening today, now, at this very moment. And it’s happening with the overwhelming support of _present day_ Israeli citizens – the majority of whom are also Israeli military reservists.
Also, the greatest holder of hostages in Palestine – by a factor of 100+ – is Israel.
Israel of course has a huge
Israel of course has a huge and undisclosed number of Palestinian hostages, including many children held in administrative detention, and without charge, or access to justice. Israel has so far killed nearly 41,000 Palestinians – just since Oct 7th
Scottish Borders SPSC Chair
Erm, think they might be on to a loser there…
Presumably they ( the
Presumably they ( the protesters) will face jail time for “thuggery”. I won’t hold my breath.
Judge dreadful wrote:
On the one hand civilly and peacefully approaching someone representing something (as you see it) with which you (and, as it happens, the United Nations) disagree and putting your point of view, and on the other hand hurling bottles, bricks and petrol bombs at the police, chanting fascist slogans, smashing up places of worship and trying to set fire to hostels containing women and children because you don’t like them being in “your” country, taking the opportunity at the same time to rob Greggs of sausage rolls. Not sure I’m really seeing an equivalence there.
Is that the same United
Is that the same respected United Nations institution that quite hilariously had terrorist state Iran as Chair of the Human Rights Council at the actual time of the massacre in Israel?
The same Iran that was beating its women to death at the same time for refusing to take the veil?
open_roads wrote:
No. The Iranian ambassador to the UN was appointed chair/rapporteur of the 2023 HRC Social Forum (a pretty meaningless once-a-year-talking shop with no substantive powers) by the President of the HRC because it was that region’s turn on the rota to take the position and as far as I understand it he was the only nominee. Iran is/was not “Chair of the Human Rights Council”, no such position exists. Of course it’s distasteful in many ways that regimes such as Iran have any standing at all within the UN, but how do you think a United Nations should work? United Nations of countries that agree with liberal Western Democracy and anyone different has no representation?
open_roads wrote:
So you do not support UN institutions or the international law they are bound to uphold? If Britain want to become a pariah state then yes follow Israel in undermining global institutions and the rule of law.
So you do not support UN
y
genuine non-trolling question
genuine non-trolling question: how much money comes directly to the team from the Israeli government? I thought it came mostly from tech entrepreneurs, or was that under the “start up nation” title? So to what extent is the team sportswashing, certainly compared to other teams?
Ron Barron started and funds
Ron Barron started and funds IPT. His purpose is specifically to improve the image of Israel abroad.
But he isn’t actually a
But he isn’t actually a representative of the government? It isn’t actually the Israeli government’s money that funds the team? So it isn’t exactly clear how they are responsible for sportswashing the government policies?
Whilst I abhor the actions of
Whilst I abhor the actions of the Israeli government, there is an uncomfortable aspect to this story, in which anything with funding from an Israeli citizen becomes somehow complicit with that policy. It’s as wrong as for example, holding INEOS as a team responsible for UK government policies.
for actual government funded sportswashing, look elsewhere in the peleton
the little onion wrote:
Thank you. More than enough government funded sportswashing going on that conveniently gets ignored.
the little onion wrote:
The Israeli populace overwhelmingly supports the genocide though.
Paul J wrote:
Whilst I abhor the actions of the Israeli government, there is an uncomfortable aspect to this story, in which anything with funding from an Israeli citizen becomes somehow complicit with that policy. It’s as wrong as for example, holding INEOS as a team responsible for UK government policies.
— Paul J The Israeli populace overwhelmingly supports the genocide though.— the little onion
Hamas, which is undoubtedly a racist organisation which also throws people off buildings for the ‘crime’ of homosexuality, was voted in by the majority of people in Gaza. So should all Gazans be responsible for Hamas’ actions? Or is it just, you know, certain ethno-religious groups which have group culpalibility?
Incidentally, there were massive protests against the current government’s policies, including on security etc, both BEFORE and SINCE October 2023.
I mean, the Israeli government’s policies are abominable, but people here really need to check the implications of some of their arguments.
You keep calling it a
You keep calling it a genocide despite there being no evidence. Al Jazeera, a pro-Palestinian news outlet reports Hamas’ figures of 40,000 killed. This is 0.02 per cent of the estimated 2 million living in Gaza. And most of these are adult male combatants. Even with the wildest of exaggerations this figure does not support the definition of genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
darrenleroy wrote:
It’s 2 percent, not 0.02.
… and the UN’s (revised
… and the UN’s (revised down, based on identity) figures in May were that 52% of the dead were women and children. Of course that data ultimately comes from the Gazan authorites – so not acceptable to many. And some folks clearly feel that some of those women and children count as fighters or at least not innocent. (Again – we should note that Hamas have the same logic – no “innocent” Israelis).
chrisonabike wrote:
Woman and children are often fighters in a terrorist /freedom fighter war.
ErnieC wrote:
And often they’re just women and children. When Israel fires over 50,000 missiles and bombs into an area containing over 2,000,000 people with a population density of over 5000 per km2, does it differentiate?
Rendel Harris wrote:
So what would you have Israel do? Sit back, relax and light up a Lucky Strike? Are you upset that they hunted down Eichmann or the bunch for the killings in Munich? Did the Bogside massacre upset you much? Operation Flavius acceptable? You ok with what happened at Bethulie, Kroonstad, Middelburg or do you only reserve your outrage when it’s Israel?
You onboard with 2 government funded teams riding, governments with a dismal human rights record or is it ok because Pog rides for 1 of them?
Are you seriously trying to
Are you seriously trying to forge an equivalence between hunting down Eichmann or the Munich terrorists and the indiscriminate bombing of tightly packed civilian areas and the killing of women and children (substantial numbers of the children toddlers and even newborn babies, are they “often fighters” as well?)? Seriously? I absolutely and fully support Israel’s right to take proportionate action to defend itself and to mete out severe punishment for those involved with and responsible for the appalling atrocities of October 7th. That does not mean giving the nation a free pass to carpet bomb civilians on the basis that some of the terrorists may get hit at the same time.
Rather than respond with ridiculous histrionics, perhaps you should consider the report of the US State Department: “Israel has the knowledge, experience, and tools to implement best practices for mitigating civilian harm in its military operations [but] results on the ground, including high levels of civilian casualties, raise substantial questions as to whether the IDF is using them effectively in all cases… UN and humanitarian organisations have described Israeli efforts to mitigate civilian harm as inconsistent, ineffective and inadequate.”
Rendel Harris wrote:
The problem is determining what is a proportionate response. Stop when the same number of civilains and combatants have been killed? Can they do this any old way or do they have to replicate the exact method used by hamas.
Hard to minimise civilain casualties when combatants (and i use them term loosely) mingle amongst the civilain population. It’s not as easy as it sounds and I speak from experience. IDF cannot win here, if they target specific individuals there is also an uproar and more rockets fired their way from the countries that harbour and support these people. It is a lose lose situation for them.
What gets me the most is the sudden and feigned outrage for the current celebrity cause. Where were all these Palestinian support organissations 18 months ago? Nowhere, then a groundswell of support, posters and protest all over the place and now – nothing. Could it be an orchestrated support campaign timed to coincide with the initial hamas attack.
ErnieC wrote:
It’s not hard to minimise civilian casualties if you don’t attack areas full of civilians, even if you believe or know that enemy combatants are hiding amongst them. During the Troubles it was well known that numerous terrorists were hiding out in Belfast, the UK government did not use that as an excuse to bomb the Falls Road after IRA atrocities.
It’s worth looking at the Geneva Conventions in this respect: it would take far too long to detail every breach of the Conventions committed by the IDF but pertinent to this discussion is Article 51, “Protection of Civilian Population”. Section 5 states:
Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:
(a) an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and
(b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.
With reference to your allegations of civilians being used as shields, this is prohibited by the Geneva Convention, same article Section 7:
The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.
However Section 8 clearly states:
Any violation of these prohibitions shall not release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians, including the obligation to take the precautionary measures provided for in Article 57 .
In other words it is illegal to attack civilians whether or not they are, or you believe they are, being used to shield combatants.
As for your last paragraph, don’t be ridiculous. There have been numerous concerted and ongoing campaigns to end Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestinian land as far back as I can remember, and that’s a long long way, back to my school days in the 1980s. Of course the October 7 atrocities and Israel’s retaliation to them have naturally caused a spike in interest in the issue but to claim that it’s a “sudden and feigned outrage for the current celebrity cause” is just silly and I’m afraid rather undermines the validity of your arguments if you have to resort to such blatant nonsense.
Rendel Harris wrote:
I was surpised by the “restraint” during the Troubles, not something the UK governent is known for and TBF they did get up to underhanded stuff.
“In other words it is illegal to attack civilians whether or not they are, or you believe they are, being used to shield combatants” – Israel is screwed then, as is this whole mess – hamas will never give up mingling with the civilian population, it’s one of the basic concepts of guerilla warfare and is helping swinging public opinion against Israel so it is a win for them. Israel will never stop responding, apparently even proportionate response is off the books now. Not sure what people want them to do, roll over and see their nation wiped out as I doubt they will accepted. Stalemate?
Perhaps where you live but it was overnight sensation in Wellington and other cities in NZ. Protests, posters, blah blah blah jus after the attacks and now – nothing, no posters, no marches, no demonstrations. I have seen one chap who has painted his car as a palestinian flag, kudos for him.
I believe it has been
I believe it has been repeatedly stated by members of various Israeli goverments / other powerful figures that one of the ways that Israel must ensure its security is NOT a proportionate response – it’s “if you attack us, you will suffer worse”. c.f. Netenyahu’s “We will exact a price that will be remembered by them and Israel’s other enemies for decades to come”. This has certainly been the reality in the various larger outbreaks of violence over the last few decades (and in day-to-day life).
So “IDF cannot win” – judged by who? International opinion is secondary – even that of by far the most important player, the US.
I can’t speak for the changes in outrage but there are long-established support groups for the Palestine cause. In addition the “left” has historically had a strand of support for this. Perhaps this explains why when things kicked off again and when this becaume big news there were organisations which could channel the reaction?
Similar to how the US government was able to ramp up massive military support for the Israeli government – there was organisation in place of long standing.
I don’t think conspiracy is needed to explain anything – over 1000 people murdered by Hamas and tens of thousands of Israelis displaced, followed by tens of times that killed by Israel and millions displaced around what was already a hugely blighted area. That’s pretty salient.
Hamas (and several other organisations – inc. Iran IIRC) say that Israel (and/or jews in general) should not exist. Many figures in Israeli governments and military organisations, going back in time state that all the land should be Israeli – forever (and this is also the practical effect of Israeli laws).
That’s not a good start for compromise and reasoned debate.
https://www.reuters.com/world
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-death-toll-how-many-palestinians-has-israels-campaign-killed-2024-07-25/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68387864
I think whilst the IDF and the Israeli Govt say most of the victims were “adult male combatants”, I’m not entirely convinced that that is accurate…
2% of the population, not 0
2% of the population, not 0.02%. 0.02% of 2 million would be 400 people. Most of these are adult male combatants? According to the US Secretary of Defence, hardly a pro-Palestinian apologist, even back in March 25,000 women and children had been killed in Gaza since the 7th of October. Interesting definition of “most”.
I believe 40,000 is 2% of 2
I believe 40,000 is 2% of 2 million. Nevertheless, you are right in saying that it is not genocide.
the little onion wrote:
This isn’t ‘anything’ though, this in particular is an Israeli citizen who’s doing it explicitly to support their government’s position, not just because they like cycling.
It’s the difference between someone who is a Tory running a team and someone running a team called ‘Yay for the Tories, vote Tory’. Despite Jim Ratcliffe, Ineos Gredadiers is not that, and this is different – the politics here are the point, not incidental.
The team’s called “Israel –
The team’s called “Israel – Premier Tech”, not “Yay for Likud, vote Likud”.
From what I can tell, they
From what I can tell, they weren’t pro Palestine, just anti genocide. Which seems reasonable given the IPT was set up to improve Israel’s international reputation.
However, pro cycling is packed with sponsors like this – Bahrain, UAE (Dubai et al)…both funding their own genocide in Sudan, nevermind the death penalty for gay people or the enslavement of Indian, Bangladeshi and Filipino workers.
In no other country though is
In no other country though is the right to citizenship based on one’s ethnicity. Palestinians displaced in 1948 as a result of the creation of the state of ‘Israel’ have never been able to return to their homes because of their ethnicity. Israel has constructed an apartheid system unlike any other we have seen incl in S Africa. This is unique. There are many unjust and brutal regimes but none that compares with Israel. Palestinians are the world’s biggest and longest standing refugee population – a problem the British created when they abandoned their Mandate to protect Palestine in 1947 and left Palestinians to their fate. We have a responsibility to right those historic wrongs.
Crazyhorse wrote:
I mean, I don’t mean to sound like a defender of Israel’s discriminatory policies. But that fact just isn’t true. Certainly not in the middle east, where there are PLENTY of other countries that explicitly or implicitly limit citizenship to ethnic and religious groups.
the little onion wrote:
A concept these protestors conveniently overlook when it comes to ~the Jews~ I mean Israel. Pretty much every Gulf state defines citizenship by very tightly defined constraints based on tribe, and religion.
At the end of the Second
At the end of the Second World War ethnic Germans were allowed to emigrate ‘home’ to Germany from countries they had lived for generations. Their right to citizenship was and is based on their ethnicity. It was the biggest mass migration of a people in the history of mankind. Indian Muslims founded an entire nation state, Pakistan, created exclusively for Muslims, at the expense of any other religious group living there. No one seems to care about this though. Only the Jews, eh?
Jews have no other homeland than Israel. In every other country they have been an often despised minority. Arabs in Gaza and the occupied territories can (and do) move a few miles north or east to live among other Arabs who speak the same language and share the same culture. Like moving from Leeds to York. It doesn’t make it right, but let’s not conflate the issue.
darrenleroy wrote:
So, you and your family may have been farming the same land for centuries. A foreign country invades that land in contravention of international law and starts to build settlements on and around your land, again in contravention of international law and in the face of the condemnation of the United Nations. Often the invaders will burn your crops, kill your livestock and bulldoze your houses, backed by their army who are quick to open fire with live weapons at any sign of protest. No problem, just give up your home, your living and your land and move to another country where you will almost certainly have to live in a refugee camp in appalling conditions with no hope of improvement and no redress for everything you’ve lost. Stop making a fuss, it’s just like moving from Leeds to York.
I’m disappointed to read such
I’m disappointed to read such ill-informed bigotry and ill-disguised anti-Palestinian bile being hosted on this site. I had been under the misapprehension that cyclists were generally a progressive and well meaning bunch. Perhaps it is just ‘performance orientated’ riders who are drawn to glib generalisation and tired tropes about a topic that they know little and care less.
That a team proudly sporting the Israeli flag is welcomed at a cycling event whilst Israel is investigated for genocide by the world’s highest court beggars belief. But then British Cycling and ethics are evidently not good bedfellows. That so many here are still willing to back Israel’s involvement is even more disturbing.
But then in Britain we are talking about a country with a long history of imperialist brutality. As we have seen in recent weeks, racism and white supremacism lurk only just below the surface in Britain today. They will not win. FREE PALESTINE.
They don’t have an Israeli
They don’t have an Israeli flag on their kit or cars. They are apparently funded by a private individual who I presume has no involvement in deciding what happens in Gaza.
I disagree that all citizens of a country are responsible for their governments actions. after all, not all Gazans are responsible for Hamas’s actions.
Also, drop the use of white supremacy. Famously, white supremacy and Jews don’t mix well.
Israel is a supremacist
Israel is a supremacist country. It has laws that specifically discriminate against the population according to their ethnicity. (I.e Nation State Law) A Jewish person born and raised in New York has more rights in Israel that a Christian Palestinian born in Jerusalem and whose ancestry dates back decades in Palestine.
I agree that it is a
I agree that it is a supremacist country. But it is the white supremacist label that it massively wrong.
incidentally, most Israeli Jews are mizrahi not Ashkenazi- so from populations stripped of citizenship by Middle Eastern and North African countries and made into refugees, rather than from European Jewish emigration/refugee populations.
a number of Middle Eastern countries ban Jews from becoming citizens.
the little onion wrote:
Note that the Mizrahi migration to Israel occurred _after_ the Nakba. The expulsion of Jews by other muslim states happened as a reaction to the violent displacement and expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs (and the murder of many thousands of them).
Paul J wrote:
incidentally, most Israeli Jews are mizrahi not Ashkenazi- so from populations stripped of citizenship by Middle Eastern and North African countries and made into refugees, rather than from European Jewish emigration/refugee populations.
a number of Middle Eastern countries ban Jews from becoming citizens.
— Paul J Note that the Mizrahi migration to Israel occurred _after_ the Nakba. The expulsion of Jews by other muslim states happened as a reaction to the violent displacement and expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs (and the murder of many thousands of them).— the little onion
A) one ethnic cleansing doesn’t justify another.
B) that’s bollocks, frankly. There were expulsions of Jews from across the middle east for centuries before 1948. Jews had to pay special taxes/protection money just to live in most of the Arab world before 1948.
C) there were strict regulations on movement of Jews to the land currently known as Israel both under British Mandate and the Ottomon Empire, which didn’t apply to other groups. So they were only able to escape to what-is-now-Israel in large numbers after it was created.
I simply don’t understand why people want to deny suffering of BOTH Jews and Arabs, as if there is a zero sum game, where only one group’s suffering counts.
the little onion wrote:
Fully agree with you on A.
B is not bollocks. The movement/displacement of Mizrahi jews to Palestine / Israel occurred overwhelmingly from 1948 onward. E.g., see “The Forced Migration of Jews from Arab Countries”, Ada Aharoni. And your C contradicts your claim in B, giving a reason why displacement /could not/ occur pre-48, so you are actually well aware of this.
On your last, unlettered point, I fully agree with you. We should not deny the suffering of any group. We should alleviate all /ongoing/ suffering, regardless of the group.
I think we are largely in
I think we are largely in agreement. My point is that the vast majority of Jewish refugees from Arab/Middle eastern/North African countries arrived IN ISRAEL after 1948. But things were far from rosy for Jews in the middle east prior to 1948, and there were plenty of movement/expulsions before then. We can’t pretend that all Arab anti-semitism is down to the creation of Israel.
Incidentally, a lot of jewish refugees from Arab countries moved to other places, e.g. France, rather than Israel.
the little onion wrote:
It is worth noting here that Israel is currently ramping up its military activities in the West Bank – above the regular oppression over the decades. Destroying roads, water infrastructure, communications, mosques, etc – starting in Jenin. Netanyahu / Mileikowsky recently showed a map of Israel on TV with the entire West Bank (and Golan Heights) included (far from the first time – he did same at the UN a decade or so ago). He and his government ministers openly talk about settling all of the West Bank. Herzog (the president) recently made a speech about how settlement was core to Israel and should be continued (i.e., of the West Bank and Golan).
There is no Hamas (of significant control) in the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority, which has limited control over Area A land, has been completely acquiescent with Israel for nearly 2 decades now. Yet, Illegal state-backed settlement continues, and West Bank Palestinians continue to see their infrastructure regularly attacked/destroyed by the Israeli military; their children abducted illegally by the Israeli military; Israeli settlers steal land, armed with Israeli state weapons and with the direct backing of Israeli military; etc.
You can’t blame Hamas for what Israel is doing in the West Bank.
Israel’s presence in the West Bank is undeniably illegal under international law – reiterated in numerous UN resolutions and authoritatively recently by the ICJ. Israeli state support of settlement activity, along with the destruction of Palestinian civil infrastructure, constitutes ethnic cleansing – a crime against humanity.
Israel has no right to self-defence in the West Bank, under international law.
Israeli political and military leadership *will* face consequences for this, one day. As may lower level members of the military for specific war crimes they commit.
Civil society should boycott
Civil society should boycott Israel. Only boycott, divestment and sanctions will end the 70 years of occupation, displacement and terror against the Palestinian population.
Kauft nicht bei Juden.
“Kauft nicht bei Juden.”
Sigh … everyone should
Sigh … everyone should probably head over to the definitions of antisemitism at this point (of course – people don’t agree on those either) – and for diversion also take in an appreciation of the current main boycott movement (complicated).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_definition_of_antisemitism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Declaration_on_Antisemitism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions
Still, props to us all – hopeful or clear-thinking types who think almost 80 years of conflict (latest incarnation) can be fixed in a forum.
john_smith wrote:
Yeah, but I think that the Nazis were boycotting Jewish businesses for a slightly different reason.
brooksby wrote:
Nope. Same reason.
ErnieC wrote:
It really wasn’t.
Checking boycott supporters I
Checking boycott supporters I think it’s fairer (but more boring, pleasing nobody) to say it really wasn’t for *many* of the modern folks, but some have more … mixed motivations.
chrisonabike wrote:
I can’t disagree.
But explicit antisemitism (pick on the Jews just because they are Jews, even if their Govt’s behaviour was truly saintly) was not the original motivation behind BDS, as I understand it.
(EDIT) I’m pulling out of this thread now, because my personal knowledge isn’t in-depth enough to get out of any tangled holes that are developing…
Top comment, time to join you
Last para, top comment, time to join you.