“The charge for speeding on a bicycle is pedalling furiously”: Reaction to police shaming cyclists for ‘breaking the speed limit’; Vuelta riders’ flight disruption woes as they reach hotel at 3AM with no food; Canyon disc of shame + more on the live blog
SUMMARY
Bus driver calls police as a cyclist "got on his nerves", (probably) life-saving helmet, refurbished Manchester velodrome... buckle up for the weekend roundup
While my weekend may or may not have been ruined by football, Vuelta a España gave us plenty of shockers and off-the-walls crazyness (those echelons!). But it wasn’t just Vuelta, one bus driver from London decided to make headlines himself.
Oh, and with the newly refurbished velodrome, Manchester is looking to become the first ‘European cycling capital’ by 2024. How about that?
> Manchester Velodrome, the home of British Cycling, reopens after 2 years and a £27m refurbishment
We all needed the rest day after that dramatic first week of Vuelta
#LaVuelta23 has been so dramatic I really need the rest day. 😂
— Benji Naesen (@BenjiNaesen) September 4, 2023
Hate to remind anyone, but does anyone remember what happened on the Giro rest day?
Hasta mañana Vuelta, or maybe not?
Give them a bloody break!
The Vuelta organizers this year #Lavuelta23 pic.twitter.com/nbnrdwrGzP
— Cycling Memes (@Cycling_Memes1) September 3, 2023
Tough words from Matt Rendell below, but do you agree with him?
It doesn’t take a genius to recognise that the Vuelta transfer was interrupted by the type of extreme weather our high emissions cause, but the race organisers’ inability to create a race without an air transfer in the middle is pathetically complacent.
— Matt Rendell @mattrendell@indieweb.social (@mrendell) September 4, 2023
"In times of weighing every gram and doing everything for recovery, this is not really a moral booster": Vuelta riders' flight disruption woes, reach hotel at 3AM with no food...
One normal day at the Vuelta, that’s all I had asked for. Heck, it’s not even a stage day!
But as this Vuelta seems to be going, even rest days give no respite. This time, it was a literal storm, which has stirred up the storm.
Riders, after the two days of back-breaking climbs in Valencia and Murcia, with Bora Hansgrohe’s Lennard Kämna taking the win in Caravaca de la Cruz, were hoping for one day to sit back, relax, unwing, and regain energy and form for the coming two weeks. However, the weather had other ideas, with a torrential outpour accompanied by very, very frightening thunder and lightning, rained on their parade.
Vanwege noodweer kon ons vliegtuig niet in Valladolid landen maar op Madrid Barajas. Wel mooi de Vuelta met 11 etappes ingekort 🤪 pic.twitter.com/mNwtAaWZtM
— Jetse Bol (@JetseBol) September 3, 2023
Burgos BH’s Dutch rider Jetse Bol joked: “Due to bad weather, our plane could not land in Valladolid but in Madrid Barajas. It’s nice to shorten the Vuelta by 11 stages”
If Remco were on that plane/night transfer, we’d have heard about it from him (in coloful detail).
— Hanna Yanagisawa (@HannaYanagisawa) September 4, 2023
RadioCycling reported that one of the two chartered flights from Murcia to Valladolid, where tomorrow’s stage will begin from, had to land in Madrid due to heavy rain, wind and a lightning storm. They were then transported three hours by bus to Valladolid, not arriving into hotels until just before 3am, with riders from DSM Firmenich, Lidl-Trek, Arkéa, Alpecin-Deceuninck, Burgos-BH and Lotto-Dstny affected.
The first flight – which departed Murcia only 15 minutes before the second one – did arrive safely in Valladolid, but they too were greeted with torrential rain and a lightning storm.
Now, Lidl-Trek’s flat-maestro, who came third in the fourth stage of this Vuelta, Edward Theuns has tweeted to express his disappointment at the state of situations, saying that they didn’t get any food after arriving at the hotel, and in times of weighing every gram and doing everything for recovery, “this is not really a moral booster”.
Arrival at the hotel 3.15 in the night… no food untill that point… in times of weighing every gram and do everything for recovery, this is not really a moral booster😒 https://t.co/JAUiJWNJP9
— Edward Theuns (@EdwardTheuns) September 4, 2023
Petition for Netflix to start a series on the Vuelta?
To add to Theuns’ woes, his team did have refreshments ready, but only at the wrong airport…
They did… but at the wrong airport 🙃
— Edward Theuns (@EdwardTheuns) September 4, 2023
Come on, surely they could have got something from you know, Lidl?
And then this video from the press officer for Soudal Quick-Step. You know I’m just waiting for some Remco reaction for the blog…
Welcome to Valladolid! pic.twitter.com/XutJBvqFjb
— Phil Lowe (@Lowe_Profile_) September 3, 2023
Can someone help this person with their Canyon Aeroad "disc of shame"
Some comments from Facebook: “Fling the dork disc to the moon”, “Yes, should be kept on. Also make sure you email customer service for your free wheel reflectors you are entitled to.”
Everybody taking the mickey out of the poor fella…
Poll time: Should speed limits apply to cyclists?
We covered the Devon and Cornwall Roads Policing Team’s cautioning to cyclists apparently “breaking the speed limit”, and reported on the reaction from cyclists and non-cyclists as well this morning.
And as you’d expect, it is a heated topic and one that’s dividing a lot of people, even cyclists. So where do you stand on this? Should speed limits apply to cyclists or not?
Oh my, TalkTV
Being mentioned on @Iromg’s #PlankOfTheWeek is always an honour, but this was a bit painful to listen to
@IsabelOakeshott @THEJamesWhale @AlexSalmond @TalkTV pic.twitter.com/HuafUpcPFp— Jeremy Vine (@theJeremyVine) September 3, 2023
Remember Jeremy Vine’s call for banning drivers from overtaking cyclists in cities from two weeks ago? Yep that’s still going on TalkTV.
As Vine says, this was, indeed painful to listen to…
“I think bicycling is probably the worst thing for a big city. It causes more pollution, it causes more traffic chaos. Ban them”
Oh my, TalkTV… When will you learn?
"Technical, narrow and iffy road surface, what could go wrong?"
While the Tour of Britain kicked off yesterday, with another victory from the barnstorming Team Jumbo-Visma, Olav Kooij winning with a perfect leadout from Wout van Aert, who finished second himself, today’s circuit in Wrexham has sent a few scratching their heads.
It’ll be a miracle if everyone makes it safely through this finish. #TourOfBritain pic.twitter.com/Ciwij7BpaP
— Benji Naesen (@BenjiNaesen) September 4, 2023
While the circuit is very narrow, with awkward barricade positioning and a mix of surfaces — a perfect recipe for disaster, do you think it allows for more technical intricacies and a refresh of team strategies than the same old, wide road bunch sprint finishes?
The future is bright...
Nothing to see but young cyclists, serving some mega sprints yesterday at Deansgate, where yesterday’s stage one ended.
Great to see some young sprinters out on Deansgate today 🚴💨#TourOfBritain 🔴🔵⚪️ pic.twitter.com/AXajgaMIwd
— British Cycling (@BritishCycling) September 3, 2023
And then, British Cycling riders meeting the stars of the future before signing on today in Wrexham.
Great to see @BritishCycling riders meeting the stars of the future before signing on 👌🏻#TourOfBritain 🔴🔵⚪️ pic.twitter.com/YR60kHGQJh
— The Tour of Britain 🇬🇧 (@TourofBritain) September 4, 2023
Blow a candle! Your favourite cycling website turns 15 🎈
If you hadn’t noticed… It’s our 15th birthday!
Wahoo and Zwift reach settlement in patent infringement dispute over "copycat" indoor trainer
Wahoo, after spending months in troubled waters, finally found some hope for its future in May this year, after a “significant” equity support from current and new investors, which brought a potential end to a troubling period for the brand, during which its credit rating was downgraded by leading agencies and 15 percent of its workforce was let go.
Now, Bicycle Retailer and Industry News has reported that it has come to a settlement agreement with Zwift over its legal action against the latter for alleged patent infringement over the Hub stationary trainer.
In October last year, Wahoo claimed that Zwift’s new Hub smart trainer infringes three patents related to the brand’s Kickr Core static trainer, the cheapest direct drive option in the Wahoo range. The court case could has the potential to result in an injunction on the Zwift Hub, preventing its sale in certain areas.
Wahoo had said: “By copying the KICKR CORE, Zwift has infringed three of Wahoo’s patents. By marketing a copy of Wahoo’s patent-protected device, Zwift has taken a shortcut that allows it to reap the benefit of Wahoo’s innovations, but without investing the time and money necessary to create Wahoo’s innovations.
“As a result, Wahoo is forced to file this action to stop Zwift’s infringement and to ensure Wahoo’s ability to continue its strong history of innovation.”
Now, a court filing Thursday shows both sides are asking the court to dismiss Wahoo’s patent suit against Zwift and any counterclaims, with each side to pay their own legal fees.
Not a YouGov poll, please
Not a poll on YouGov on speed-limit on cyclists, please!
I noticed this has been picked up by @YouGov so one of their daily questions now is about cyclists and speed limits. I sometimes wonder if there’s ever been a cohort of people who enjoy exercise that have ever been so vilified. pic.twitter.com/apbtuqHYeC
— Steve Fry (@stevefry) September 4, 2023
Copying from the road.cc live blog now, are we YouGov?? Anyway, go vote on our poll!
Bus driver disciplined by employer for tailgating cyclist before calling police for rider "getting on his nerves"
Bus operator Go-Ahead London apologised for the incident and said the driver had been identified and “dealt with formally, in accordance with our company’s disciplinary procedure”…
Latest in the world of "how to obey traffic signs" for cyclists
If we want to get safe cycling infrastructure, it’s important that we obey all traffic laws and signs. pic.twitter.com/W9vX6Gy0vz
— Matticus (@Matticusssss) September 3, 2023
Maybe someday somewhere a police force would imagine this is how cyclists are supposed to be obeying the traffic laws and signs, and everyone will applaud as they go around enforcing.
Jokes aside, if you ever wondered about the traffic signs and what it meant for you as a cyclist, here’s Simon’s deep dive into the world of traffic semiotics from the weekend.
Olav Kooij makes it two in two in the Tour of Britain as Jumbo-Visma seek to win it all
Double up, double down. Jumbo Visma on their way to the crown?
OLAV KOOIJ DOUBLES UP IN WREXHAM 🏆
The @JumboVismaRoad rider makes it two wins in two stages!#TourOfBritain 🔴🔵⚪️ pic.twitter.com/74uNO3J3jW
— The Tour of Britain 🇬🇧 (@TourofBritain) September 4, 2023
A relatively normal stage if you were to compare it with the Vuelta, with Jumbo-Visma going for hammer to the nail in the second stage in the northern part of Wales today.
Before the flag even dropped, there was an incident involving the highly rated Spanish GC rider Carlos Rodríguez, on the brink of signign a long-term contract with his team Ineos Grenadiers dropping to the ground, but stayed mostly unaffected.
On the shortest stage of the Tour (and on the hottest day of the year so far) starting and ending in Wrexham, with questions of whether the narrow streets would be safe enough for the bunch sprint finish (spoilers, it was thankfully), a quartet of riders decided to test their luck in the breakaway.
Time to rehydrate and recover after another scorching day* at @TourofBritain 😎
*Yes, you read that correctly 😉 pic.twitter.com/m8GrwZMHoQ
— INEOS Grenadiers (@INEOSGrenadiers) September 4, 2023
Movistar’s Fernando Gaviria would be the next to go down, and the Columbian sprinter, after suffering a torrid day in Manchester, had some skin scrape off the palm of his right hand, and looked very uncomfortable in handling his bike.
Another big crash was to came later in the race, with just one categorised climb. A DSM rider touched shoulders with the race leader Olav Kooij, and then veered into the path of the yellow traffic cones on the edge of the road, going down hard in striking fashion, in what was a high-speed crash.
Wout van Aert was on leadout duty once again, and executed it to perfection, bringing Kooij home in the leaders’ jersey and finishing third himself.
There was some confusion between the two Bora-Hansgrohe riders Danny van Poppel and Sam Bennett, finishing second and fourth respectively. Van Poppel looked as if he had no idea where Bennett, who was following his wheel was. He then ending up racing for the win himself, as the Irish rider was left disappointed, having backed out of going past his teammate at the last minute in the fears of getting squeezed into the barriers.
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The police responds: "Riders must not cycle in a dangerous, careless or inconsiderate manner"
The force has spoken, folks. After the whirlwind caused by a social media post by Devon and Cornwall Roads Policing Team about criticising cyclists for not adherring to the speed limit, when it doesn’t apply to them, was picked and ripped apart, they have responded to our request for a comment.
A Devon & Cornwall Police spokesperson told road.cc:
“Legislation does not require cyclists to adhere to the speed limit, although riders must not cycle in a dangerous, careless or inconsiderate manner.
“Our officers are always mindful of road safety. As part of this, we ask cyclists to consider the impact the speed at which they are travelling could have on themselves – and those around them – in the event of a collision. This includes whether they would be able to sufficiently slow down or stop quickly enough should a hazard present itself, especially in built-up areas.
“On this occasion, road safety advice was given to a group of cyclists and no offences were recorded.
“This engagement – which carried a road safety, not speed enforcement, message – was received positively by the group. The speed limit was provided to give context in terms of what other road users would be expected to adhere to.”
Hmm, fair play, if no offences were recorded and the message was received allegedly received positively by the group. But that makes one wonder, was the social media post just a poorly worded misadventure into the cyclists’ speed-limit policing territory, or was that a genuine mistake by the team unaware of the Highway Code.
Either way, here’s some reaction from the road.cc readers:
IanMK: “Educate and inform,” Totally agree. Why not start with drivers? In fact, why not start with the drivers that respond incorrectly to your twitter feed? If they don’t know this section of the highway code I suspect they’ll be equally ignorant on other parts of it – like protecting vulnerable road users.
levestane: A bicycle can only decelerate at about half the rate of a typical car [somewhere in Bicycle Science]. There are quite a few hazards here (driveways, pedestrian crossing, junctions, poor visibility…). I’d probably be going slower, but that’s just me.
Legin: Not unreasonable by the Police there; just becasue you are not breaking the law doesn’t mean you should go do it.
Hopefully the conversation went, “I know the speed limit doesn’t apply to you but don’t be a ****ing bunch of ****holes as you know riding like this will wind the residents and other road users up; plus it may earn you a much more serious injury if you crash. Thank you and enjoy your ride.”
IanMSpencer: Myself, happy to exceed speed limits on a bike, typically on a downhill into a village where the speed limit is away from the built up area, but cyclists should cycle at a speed they can stop in, be it junctions, bends or other obstructions, so advice about excess speed in a built up area is appropriate.
Strangely, one place I seek to exceed the speed limit for my own safety is in a 20mph, yet over 20 is not sufficient for motorists to get frustrated and “need” to overtake, mainly because many believe that 20 is a war on motorists therefore does not apply (which also there excuses overtaking into oncoming traffic, and past obstructions and close passing… and holding up the cyclists you’ve passed).
EddyBerckx: Tbh I got no problems with police giving them friendly words of advice – without threats and so on, and WITHOUT putting it on social media where the predicable happens. Going into a village at speed is not cool regardless of what you drive / ride.
But honestly, cars never stick to 30mph when they have the choice of going faster and 37-39 is pretty much the minimum default speed they’ll do without thinking.
NickSprink: I’ll stick my neck out and say it may not be illegal to do 40 in a 30 zone on a bike, but is it sensible? Would a pedestrian for example be expecting a bike to approach that fast? By definition a 30 zone is a high risk zone, for all road users.
I believe that is was the police meant by offering “words of advice”.
"The charge for speeding on a bicycle is called pedalling furiously": Reaction to police shaming cyclists for ‘breaking the speed limit’
Ah well, it’s that time of the year again, the mandatory police force getting something so wrong about cyclists that we have no option left but to cover it.
This time, it’s Devon and Cornwall Roads Policing Team, who wrote last evening: “Cyclists, please be mindful of your speeds and just how this will effect you in the event of a collision. This group today on Dartmoor observed travelling at near 40mph on a 30mph restricted road. All stopped and offered appropriate words of advice”.
Cyclists, please be mindful of your speeds and just how this will effect you in the event of a collision. This group today on Dartmoor observed travelling at near 40mph on a 30mph restricted road. All stopped and offered appropriate words of advice 🚴♀️ 🚴♀️ 7163 & #MPS6758JONES pic.twitter.com/5oX0hFpEj2
— Devon and Cornwall Roads Policing Team 🚔 (@DC_RPT) September 3, 2023
There’s not much I can say about this post, other than reminding the roads policing team that the speed limit doesn’t legally apply to cyclists, because there’s no, once again, legal requirement for a speedometer on an piece of equipment not powered by a motor.
In fact, Rule 124 of the Highway Code sets limits for various vehicles, which MUST be complied with, and in which bicycles are not included.
Further, Rule 125 also says that “inappropriate speeds are also intimidating, deterring people from walking, cycling or riding horses”, and drivers should reduce their speed when “sharing the road with pedestrians, particularly children, older adults or disabled people, cyclists and horse riders, horse drawn vehicles and motorcyclists”.
Hmm, 22 months on, do we need another survey to tell us how many drivers are still unaware of the Highway Code?
> Over half of UK drivers still confused by Highway Code change, shows survey
And just as you’d expect, the tweet was the perfect hunting ground for the pitchfork-weilding anti-cycling brigade, lambasting not only the cyclists in the video — who at least in my opinion seem to be well-experienced and riding safely, and were most likely going down a descent — but all cyclists, bringing up discussions like license plates, speedometers, and harsher police action towards “speed-limit disobeying” cyclists.
Mike van Erp, the London cyclist and cycling safety advocate, better known by his alter-ego Cycling Mikey, caught whiff of this police post and replied to several tweets, saying that the cyclists weren’t breaking the law and that “that’s probably quite reasonable when a bicycle weighs maybe 10kg and an average car 1.5-2 tonnes”.
They weren’t breaking the law. The speed limit doesn’t apply to cyclists. That’s probably quite reasonable when a bicycle weighs maybe 10kg and an average car 1.5-2 tonnes.
— CyclingMikey the Unspeakable (@MikeyCycling) September 3, 2023
They weren’t breaking the law. The speed limit doesn’t apply to cyclists. That’s probably quite reasonable when a bicycle weighs maybe 10kg and an average car 1.5-2 tonnes.
— CyclingMikey the Unspeakable (@MikeyCycling) September 3, 2023
They weren’t breaking the law. The speed limit doesn’t apply to cyclists. That’s probably quite reasonable when a bicycle weighs maybe 10kg and an average car 1.5-2 tonnes.
— CyclingMikey the Unspeakable (@MikeyCycling) September 3, 2023
More cyclists jumped in to criticise the police’s tweet, remarking that this was doing nothing but “stoking more anti-cycling sentiments” and “giving motorists even more encouragement to treat anyone on a bicycle as a second class citizen”.
Could you point me in the direction of any law they have broken,which meant you felt the need to stop them? I’m sure you’re aware speed limits don’t apply to cyclists.
Congratulations for stirring more hate to cyclists. I would’ve asked to speak to you superior if you stopped me.— Jonathan Hutchinson (@JJHutch82) September 3, 2023
Great work Devon and Cornwall roads police in giving motorists even more encouragement to treat anyone on a bicycle as a second class citizen.
I have been driven at, on my bike deliberately as “punishment” likely over one hundred times.
You really win the jobsworth award. https://t.co/p3I9L351kT pic.twitter.com/fW12VwyCbN
— Rob has gone to Threads. (@RobL_L) September 4, 2023
Some quick kinetic energy calculations might be of help here…
Just for context, at 40mph they each have similar kinetic energy as a moped at 30mph.
And that also comes with longer braking distance, and less time for anyone to react. 🤷♂️ https://t.co/2erqhoLeFn pic.twitter.com/sIWjNCPPbY
— 🚲 Cycle Calm 🛵 (@CycleCalm) September 4, 2023
Another person pointed out that the police, while themselves going past the speed limit in their cars, failed to use the blue lights and the two-tone siren.
As per the highway code, speed limits apply to *motorised* vehicles only. What is more concerning here is the police exceeding the speed limit chasing down law-abiding citizens while not using blues and twos THEN tweeting about it inciting hatred against cyclists (see replies). https://t.co/RhV3Dik7q4
— Adam Reynolds (@awjre) September 4, 2023
Incidentally, two weeks ago, Devon and Cornwall Roads Policing Team were also clamping down on speeding drivers, catching a driver speeding at 61mph in a 30mph zone, just a few feet away from a child cyclist, with the police confirming that a prosecution will take place.
The team also said that it identifying 280 other instances of motorists speeding or using mobile phones in one hour.
Adrian Leisk, Head of Road Safety at Devon & Cornwall Police, said: “Our South Devon team identifying, yet again, that speeding drivers in Torbay are not expecting to be held to account.”
4 September 2023, 08:48
4 September 2023, 08:48
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Latest Comments
Same here. I have a helmet with built in front and rear lights and have a red light clipped onto my bag plus lights attached to my bike front and rear but still have drivers putting me in danger. My commute is about two miles and I normally have around four incidents a week where I have to brake hard or take other evasive action to avoid being hit by distracted drivers. A big percentage of these are drivers coming on to roundabouts when I am already on them.
Glasgow's South City Way sounds great, does it not? As a user from before and after I wholeheartedly welcome the construction of the segregated route, but so much of the detailed construction is poor, if not unsafe. I provide a link to a presentation I made when construction was half complete (a personal view) and the construction errors remain outstanding to this day: crossed by high speed flared road junctions, poor colour differentiation, car door zone risks and so on. And yet cyclists come because they feel safe. It's a complex subject but IMHO the feeling of safety (or lack of) is a critical component. https://drive.proton.me/urls/B67AK44G90#CFueBGjscoWr
I can only conclude that you haven't been into a city in the last few years. Food delivery riders in particular are riding overpowered "eBikes" that are basically mopeds ... powered only via the throttle without pedalling at significantly more than 15mph. Problem is they look like normal bikes/ebikes and not like mopeds so that is what people describe them as. My reading of the article is that it is those vehicles that are being talked about here.
I have the Trace and Tracer, which have essentially the same design, albeit smaller and less powerful. The controls are a little complicated but only because there are loads of options. In reality, once you've chosen your level of brightness, you'll only cycle through 1 or 2 options and it's dead simple. The lights are rock solid, bright, with good runtimes. The only thing I find annoying is charging them - if your fingers are slightly wet or greasy, getting the rubber out of the way of the charging port is a pain in the arse.
Dance and padel is all very well, but when is Strava going to let me record my gardening?
You can use it to check whether it's raining.
If it's dusk, i.e. post-sunset, then the cyclists should have lights on and thus the colour of their top is irrelevant. If you want to complain about cyclists not having lights when it's mandatory then by all means do but their top has nothing to do with it.
All of my Exposure lights with a button allow cycling through the modes with a short press. I have five of those; it would be odd if Exposure didn’t allow this functionality with the Boost 3. I also have two Exposure Burners if I remember correctly: they are rear lights for joysticks that clip on and are powered through the joystick charging port. They don’t have a button. None of my Exposure lights have failed. I looked at the Boost 3 review photos but none showed the button, so far as I could tell. I also have Moon lights. Good experience generally. One did fail, possibly because it was so thin it used to fall through the holes in my helmet onto the ground. Also, the UI and charge indicators vary for my Moon lights. Perhaps the latest ones are more consistent. My worst lights ever were from See.Sense.
Steve really doesnt like exposure products does he? Boost and Strada marked down for being too complicated. While the Zenith and Six Pack reviewed by his colleagues give them rave reviews (as most exposure products have on road.cc), the Zenith even touted as 'even more intuitive to use' with the same controls.
They are more interested in dog shit. https://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/people/lancaster-police-launch-search-for-person-who-sprayed-dog-faeces-with-pink-paint-5605519
84 thoughts on ““The charge for speeding on a bicycle is pedalling furiously”: Reaction to police shaming cyclists for ‘breaking the speed limit’; Vuelta riders’ flight disruption woes as they reach hotel at 3AM with no food; Canyon disc of shame + more on the live blog”
A complete selfown on this
A complete selfown on this one by the D&C Rozzers on this one. Fortunately the sane part of Twitter wasted no time in telling them so.
FWIW the only offence they could be accused of commiting is S29 of the Road Traffic Act, Inconsiderate and Careless cycling, and it seems unlikely that it meets the bar.
s35 of the offenses against the person act is the classic “wanton and furious one”. Covers both Vehicles and Carraiges (a bike is a carraige in this act!)
The Offences Against The
The Offences Against The Person Act is only relevant if someone has been injured; there is also S28 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 which makes it an offence to “ride or drive furiously any horse or carriage”.
Admittedly the latter is less likely to be used – I can’t imagine a situation where that would be the preferred charge over careless/dangerous cycling under the Road Traffic Act. The Offences Against The Person Act is still called upon when an injury (or death) has occured as the available sentence is higher then the RTA offences.
Sadly, the Offences Against
Sadly, the Offences Against the Person Act gets shunned in favour of the RTA when the weapon causing harm is a motor vehicle, which is galling because, as you say OAtPA has much more realistic penalties and fewer allowable mitigations.
If the motorist is driving on company business they should have the HASAWA thrown at them too.
What behaviours would you
What behaviours would you think passed the threshold for inconsiderate and careless cycling then ?
Interesting post from another
Interesting post from another place:
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=3b995d0b12a59c3847fe07fe7934a08b&topic=20035.msg358382#msg358382
In short, there are some circumstances where speed limits do apply to cyclists, and, are speed cameras even certified for use on cyclists?
Sriracha wrote:
That’s interesting that speed guns probably won’t work for cyclists (due to the very small metallic target) and I’d guess that any speed reading could be challenged in court.
I don’t think the “metallic
I don’t think the “metallic target” issue is real, radar reflects off water etc. But there are still plenty potential issues – the spokes could be interesting, so too the movement of the rider/limbs/ pedals etc. The speed gun needs to be type approved for its intended target, and I doubt it has been approved for cyclists.
Assuming the guns are not approved for cyclists the police have no business stirring things up based on what amounts to conjecture anyway. For all we know their speed reading was an artefact and means nothing.
Sriracha wrote:
The police in this instance were not using a gun, this looks like a phone recorded video clip (portrait mode, argghh) of the in-car video equipment, the 39mph shown is the speed of their own vehicle.
mark1a wrote:
The police in this instance were not using a gun, this looks like a phone recorded video clip (portrait mode, argghh) of the in-car video equipment, the 39mph shown is the speed of their own vehicle.— Sriracha
That’s a good point, I hadn’t twigged that was what was going on here, and I was thinking only in terms of speed camera usage.
It does beg the question, unless the cops had their lights and siren on, are they not presenting an even greater danger than the cyclists, and all in pursuit of what?
I’ve seen those videos where the police are in full blues/twos pursuit of a speeding motorist, and use their calibrated speedo as evidence, but that is not the same as silently shadowing a target thereby committing the same offence themselves they seek to prevent in others.
(I’m not on X so if there is a video I haven’t seen it).
Our Depity Council was done
Our Depity Council Leader was done for Careless Driving when he went hooning down the trffic calmed High Street at 65mph in his Landy after a “night out at the Bingo”, followed by an unmarked police car.
https://www.chad.co.uk/news/crime/ashfield-councillor-hit-police-car-after-60mph-plus-chase-through-sutton-town-centre-3854057
Judging by a lot of the
Judging by a lot of the points made from X/Twitter responses, no, the cop car was NOT using sirens and blue lights.
Sriracha]
I believe (though I may well be mistaken) that emergency vehicles are allowed to contravene the HWC without the use of lights / sirens (I think that it’s recommened they turn them off on approcah to red lights in order to prevent other users jumping through to get out of the way and thus reisk prosecution themselves).
As for words of advice, I’ve no issues with that under appropriate circumstances (I’ve been on the end of friendly advice before: not-breaking-any-laws-but-could-do-better…).
tootsie323 wrote:
Ask a well-versed driving instructor. I believe Ashley Neal (a driving instructor on YouTube) has on a number of occasions discussed Emergency Service driving ettiquette and my own driving instructor taught ADT to traffic officers, and from my own memory I was told that without lights and sirens, all emergency service vehicles must be driven in accordance to standard HWC practice and that includes signage, speed limits and junction priorities.
I’ve seen police cars use their blues & twos only in order to get through junctions faster. As in not using them on approach, turning them on, and then 30 seconds after the junction, turn them off once back up to speed. I recon the “turn them off” recommendation came about as a half-hearted attempt to stop the abuse of power in this instance.
Sriracha wrote:
Good point – animals have been known to set off speed cameras, so a speed gun would pick up a cyclist.
On the enforcement aspect, I
On the enforcement aspect, I believe that 2 policemen witnessing a calibrated speedometer for 1/10 of a mile is an alternative.
OTOH roll on the requirement for required reflectors to be the size of a dinner plate !
I like the point about the
I like the point about the spokes, metal pieces reflecting back a strong Doppler signal. The spoke on the bottom will be stationary while the spoke on the top will be travelling at twice the speed of the cyclist.
Those are very specific
Those are very specific circumstances, and those byelaws relate to what is effectively private estate open to the public on such byelaw limitations. Depending on the detection method of a camera (infrared, laser, RADAR etc will have a profound affect on whether a device works properly on bicycles, especially ones made of carbon. Even motorcycle forums have strong research to confirm inaccuracy of certain speed guns and cameras on our leather clad cousins. Also, unless you managed to stop a cyclist in the act, how would you even manage to identify them to prosecute?
Matthew Acton-Varian wrote:
And that is exactly why all bicycles should have number plates! Don’t speak to me about road tax.
Road Tax?
Road Tax?
I fail to see what the interpretive dance trio from the late 60s has to do with it.
They were good though weren’t
They were good though weren’t they? I heard they were thinking of changing their name a few times but thought it would be confusing for their older fans.
All their performances became
All their performances became free after their 40th anniversary in the business too. Despite the questionable emmisions generated by their more athletic routines.
They were good but I much
They were good but I much prefer their tribute act VED. They are far better and have lasted longer than the originals.
VED – great, but I have a
VED – great, but I have a soft spot for smaller regional groups such as ULEZ. Or LTN – famous for playing only tiny venues. Or even Fifteen Minute Cities – didn’t make it far from where they started but had everything most would want IMO.
They also only did fifteen
They also only did fifteen minute sets as well which upset most of their audience. I once saw them with famed US rapper chagrine d.
Chagrine D – is he the one
Chagrine D – is he the one that did a set at Reading with Troll Factory? “Rolling Coal Y’all” was a catchy number and had something to say which most of the audience had agreed with long before they set foot on stage. Calling your audience whiners (WHINGERS!!) before launcing in to “Lycra clad loser in my wing mirror” was never going to end well either
Yeah… Good luck with that.
Yeah… Good luck with that. Tax and numberplates onto a cheap hybrid, the average joe’s commuter bike, the paper exercise would cost more than the bike! And what about kids bikes? You gonna start taxing kids now? Be real.
Desperately hoping the op was
Desperately hoping the op was being ironic. If not we have a pbu on board.
Police forces that don’t know
Police forces that don’t know the law… Who knew?
A Highway Code conversation:
A Highway Code conversation:
“The Highway Code used to recommend cyclists to not ride two abreast and hog the roads.”
“As for HWC, you’ve not read it, have you? Check out rule 66 and understand what it is saying.”
“Sixty years ago I could recite the Highway Code cover to cover from memory. Since then there have been a number of changes, many to remove outdated rules probably dealing with horses. Can’t say I’m as familiar with the current edition these days.”
Shall we tell him he doesn’t need a red flag man any more?
The conversation proudly
The conversation proudly asserting ignorance of the HWC continues…
“Do you know how often as a cyclist we get told to follow the imaginary instructions in the Drivists’ version of the Highway Code?
What does it say about pedestrians and junctions? You might need to know about that.”
“Why should I need to know about pedestrians and junctions? After more than 60 years of driving have they just been introduced? Can you explain why some cyclists ride off on red/amber or a few risk going through on red…? The attitude of all road users needs to change….”
“Rule 170 wasn’t around 60 years ago and gives pedestrians priority, *even when waiting at the side of the road* whether you are entering or emerging. That’s why you need to know because pedestrians knowing this may be stepping across the road expecting you to comply.”
I’ll stick my neck out and
I’ll stick my neck out and say it may not be illegal to do 40 in a 30 zone on a bike, but is it sensible? Would a pedestrian for example be expecting a bike to approach that fast? By definition a 30 zone is a high risk zone, for all road users.
I believe that is was the police meant by offering “words of advice”.
NickSprink wrote:
I certainly wouldn’t want to be doing 40 anywhere near where there’s a lot of pedestrians. It’s reasonable to assume that most cyclists have a better understanding of the risks involved than a driver would. If I was doing 40 (downhill with a strong tailwind) then I would be taking the lane and ensuring that I had good view of anything ahead of me.
“I certainly wouldn’t want to
“I certainly wouldn’t want to be doing 40 anywhere near where there’s a lot of pedestrians. It’s reasonable to assume that most cyclists have a better understanding of the risks involved than a driver would.”
Agreed on both counts. A 30 zone is somewhere almost by definition where pedestrians are likely to be, so I don’t think it’s very responsible of the riders to be going at that speed in one.
It isn’t, and shouldn’t be, illegal but the police do have a general duty to maintain public safety even if laws aren’t being broken. If the “words of advice” were genuinely that, and offered in a non-aggressive way, I don’t have much of a problem with it. If delivered in a “we’re watching you, dickhead cyclists” manner then I do.
Brauchsel wrote:
I don’t object to police voicing their opinions about safety etc. and giving advice – most of the time that’s good policing. My objection would be to police ignoring speeding drivers that do pose significant danger and instead just focussing on cyclists that pose far less danger. Unfortunately, most police have contracted car-brain and so consider that cyclists are a threat and ignore motorists casually breaking traffic laws.
I would take the fact they
I would take the fact they pass over a zebra crossing as a key indicator there probably would be pedestrians. And as im sure we all know, some people will cross the road anywhere even if there is a zebra crossing to use. You can argue the rights and wrongs of whos to blame but preferably not in A&E.
There are 2 surrounding
There are 2 surrounding issues – there is a driver ahead doing 40 – was he spoken too ? Why was the police driver speeding in the 30?
What advice was given ? Get a computer, a better computer? On what basis did he stop them ?
I would not have had the confidence to go at that speed !
Edit – to make clear that they should have stuck roughly to 30.
That’s separate from the issues around the tweet.
NickSprink wrote:
One thing I’ve learned is that nobody expects cyclists to be doing much more than 10mph, ever. It’s caused me plently of issues in the past where people will just step out in front of me because they see a cyclist and assume I’ll be doing about a third of the speed I am.
So yeah, if there are unsighted hazards (driveways, entrances, etc) or peds around in any number, I’m going to ease off and make sure I can stop as quickly as possible.
39mph is scary fast on a
39mph is scary fast on a bicycle, with nothing between your body and the road, other than a piece of thin fabric.
I honestly don’t see how cyclists could possibly be expected to adhere to the speed limit – simply because it is difficult to know what speed they are doing. I use my watch, rather than a bike computer – so I don’t know my speed until I finish my cycle.
I think the police were correct to point out to the cyclists that they were going too fast for the surroundings.
The police were NOT correct to put that Xcrement on Social Media.
HoldingOn wrote:
39mph is 39mps in a car or a bike
So, if you don’t expect cyclists to adhere to it, why would you in a car? Maybe cycling should be legislated so that you have to have a GPS monitor to know your speed.
I know I shouldn’t, sorry…
I know I shouldn’t, sorry… I expect drivers to adhere to it because they have a mandatory calibrated speedometer. Cyclists are not obliged to have such a device, and so the speed limit does not apply to them. Is this an oversight in legislation, or has there perhaps been a cost benefit analysis which concludes that the benefit of mandating speedometers on bikes is needless hassle for the risk that cyclists present? As ably demonstrated by other posts here though, the fact that a speed limit does not apply does not prevent us from moderating our speed where appropriate.
Tbh I got no problems with
Tbh I got no problems with police giving them friendly words of advice – without threats and so on, and WITHOUT putting it on social media where the predicable happens. Going into a village at speed is not cool regardless of what you drive / ride.
But honestly, cars never stick to 30mph when they have the choice of going faster and 37-39 is pretty much the minimum default speed they’ll do without thinking.
There was a report on BBC
There was a report on BBC news (TV) over the weekend about a UK police force (Lincolnshire, I believe) taken dashcam evidence from drivers of other drivers’ bad driving. (Sorry.)
But I can’t find anything online about it now.
The report asked members of the public if they would issue reports to the police.
As if this was new and not something that some drivers and cyclists have been doing for some years now.
The report made this (reporting) seem innoccous if it was by drivers, but we all now how many feel about cyclists doing the same.
I think the 40mph through-the
I think the 40mph through-the-village-past-the-various-blind-entrances is more nuanced than this. But I’d say the police should have framed it as “without due consideration” not “speeding”.
Stayed out of the scrimmage, but this was my comment over at my Twitter place:
I’m in 2 minds on this one. We have an expectation for motor vehicle drivers to be at a speed suitable for the conditions not to follow the letter of the law. I think through a village with a fair number of blind exits, junctions, Zebra crossing etc, 40mph is questionably fast.<
https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1698422024828228075
Best reply imo:
This would be ideal material for workshops for police on how to work with cyclists and how to use social media to communicate key road crime messages. It could bring out assumptions about cycling danger and the implications of posting about cycling. It has made roads less safe.
https://twitter.com/2wheelsgoodBrum/status/1698597761027887296
Interesting to see many
Interesting to see many cyclists here and on that Twatter going full whatabout, with “cars do it and the police got it wrong ….”. Whilst this is true it in no way excuses those stupid cyclists from riding at that speed in such a place.
They’re stupid not because they seem unable to understand the danger to others but also seem oblivious to the dangers to themselves. One major point about speed limits is that they try to increase the amount of reaction time and braking time a vehicle controller will have in places where very proximate and sudden events that are wholly unpredictable can occur.
If such an event occurs, every cyclist in that group will crash at speed, with added impetus from the continuing gravity of the downhill. They’ll also stand a far higher chance, as they crash, of collecting a serious injury from road furniture than they would if they fell off on a downhill country road.
Emergence of all sorts, from dozens or even hundreds of gates, driveways and similar along the way, is a high risk. Pedestrians but also cars lurching out into the road from their parking spot in front of a house. Loose cats and grannies. And so forth.
The police may have got the technical details wrong about the reason for the stop (speed limit breaking rather than riding furiously); and they may neglect to apprehend even more dangerous speeding motorists. But those cyclists were undeniably doing a stupid and dangerous thing. Save the 40mph + downhill speeds for the countryside, with a clear sight line and near zero liklihood of unpredicatable hazards ahead every 2 yards.
No, had a look. Cannot find
No, had a look. Cannot find these “many cyclists here” that you speak of.
Parliament doesn’t agree with
Parliament doesn’t agree with you.
I rarely agree with
I rarely agree with parliament
You don’t need to. You just
You don’t need to. You just have to suck it up.
That’s lovely and all but, as
That’s lovely and all but, as has been pointed out elsewhere, if you don’t know how fast you are travelling then how do you know if you are travelling too fast?
Which I think legitimately
Which I think legitimately takes us around the circle to looking at the riding.
Were these particular cyclists riding in control in a way that was giving consideration to the risks that were around them?
While there were junctions, they had reasonable visibility splays, and no cars approached the junctions as they were riding, there were not any pedestrians near the crossing, the demeanor of those cyclists were that they were in control. Was it a bit quick through the villag? Probably. Was it dangerous cycling? There is precious little evidence in that video that the cyclists were riding aggressively and taking risks. I thought that perhaps early on that the first corner looked unsighted and there might have been a surprise, so I might take them to task for that, but aside from that, I am struggling to see anything in their riding that makes their riding particularly noteworthy.
“While there were junctions,
“While there were junctions, they had reasonable visibility splays, and no cars approached the junctions as they were riding, there were not any pedestrians near the crossing, the demeanor of those cyclists were that they were in control.”
So, if a driver was doing more than 30mph on that very same piece of road, should they be able to justify it with the same logic you use? “Sorry officer, I know I was going well over the limit, but there was nothing coming and I could see very clearly”
There may not be a specific law for cyclists, but there has to be common sense applied. Literally just after the ’30’ speed limit sign there is a blind corner and on it are 2 juntions on the left – maybe a narrow path or a driveway but still a possible place for a car to pull out just enough to cause an issue. It doesn’t have to be a collision but going at speed in a tight group the concertina effect means if the front rider brakes heavy the rear one could end up in a pile on the ground or end up poughing into the rider in front.
Speed limits are there for the safety of everyone. drivers, pedestrians, cyclists. Just because there is no legal requirement to slow down it should still be adhered to for the safety of all around.
I would keep the disc of
I would keep the disc of shame on at least until I’ve ridden a bit and convinced myself that the chain limits are correctly set. One drop of the chain is enough to trash the spokes.
I do of course check these things being experienced, but as the OP is clearly not experienced, it makes sense to keep the tinker on until correct operation has been assured.
I suspect the owner posted
I suspect the owner posted that with tongue firmly in cheek. An Aeroad with SRAM Red and wobbly Zipp wheels doesn’t seem like the choice of a newbie.
Round here I’ve seen people
Round here I’ve seen people (as in 50 year old lardbuckets) pop to the cafe on £15,000 TT bikes in a gale, so I rarely relate expense with experience and ability.
Yeah…I see that all the
Yeah…I see that all the time ?
It’s happened to me at least
It’s happened to me at least once – the open leading edge of the cage is ready to catch a spoke passing too close and pin it hard against the jockey wheel bolt – your precious derailleur, chain and hanger are all mashed clockwise until the wheel stops or something breaks. End of ride.
Could not be a guard on the leading edge of the cage (call it a Goonguard), like this example has on the trailing side?
Not only do the police have
Not only do the police have no idea about speed limits and how they don’t apply to cyclists, their grasp of English isn’t too good either:
Cyclists, please be mindful of your speeds and just how this will
effectaffect you in the event of a collision.FTFT.
Some crimes will no longer be
Some crimes will no longer be investigated as part of a project being piloted in the north east of Scotland.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-66706656
No hope for driving offences commited against cyclists!
This is the Orkney and
This is the Orkney and Shetland islands. Most serious crimes are sheep related.
“pedalling furiously”?
“pedalling furiously”?
*checks video*
Not a vast amount of actual pedalling going on is there?
One also suspects (based on years of first hand on the road experience) that absent the police car’s presence, there would probably have been a Chelsea tractor behind them with a puce faced drivist fuming at being “held up”.
EDIT: Yeah I’d probably ride differently myself in those circumstances (barrelling in to Shere from Hound House Road for example offers similar ‘possible-but-not worth the risk’ speed opportunities) but as I am also a drivist the old “but the other lot” part of my brain kicked in 😉
Happy Birthday, road.cc.
Happy Birthday, road.cc.
Happy birthday Road.cc !!
Happy birthday Road.cc !!
I think I hopped on the F.At wagon about 2013/14… it’s been a cracking ten (ish) years for me 🙂
Keep it up!
I’m expecting a montage of some sorts..
Happy Birthday Road.cc. Think
Argh. Wrong thread.
As an American unfamiliar
As an American unfamiliar with TalkTV, I have a question. Are multiple chins a requirement of male employment there?
Make sure you make complaints
Make sure you make complaints to the IOPC
https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/complaints/submit-a-complaint
I quite like my disc of shame
I quite like my disc of shame. It’s never done me any harm.
This Yank reads here
This Yank reads here regularly, chagrined.
This is likely the sanest thing I’ve read here in a liong time, amongst all the drama and hyperbole. My Good God you Brits are whiners (that’s right, not “whingers”, whiners):
NickSprink: I’ll stick my neck out and say it may not be illegal to do 40 in a 30 zone on a bike, but is it sensible? Would a pedestrian for example be expecting a bike to approach that fast? By definition a 30 zone is a high risk zone, for all road users.
I believe that is was the police meant by offering “words of advice”.
That’s right. As I read this story I saw nothing about violating a law or a speed limit, or whether cyclists should, or any other point of pain expressed. The cop made a legitimate call to be mindful of why speed limits are posted to begin with, and it’s not about authoritarian control. It’s about public safety and the cycling world was given an advisory. That’s what cops should do.
Sheesh, get over yourselves.
chuckd wrote:
Are you sure? What precisely is making you feel “embarrassed or humilated due to disappointment or failure”, which is what chagrined means? Can we help?
Being a fellow cyclist, being
Being a fellow cyclist, being hardcore before it was cool. A cycling commuter back to the 70s.
chuckd wrote:
I hope you realise that the average road.cc commenter here is in no way representative of the rest of the UK (thankfully)
Oh indeed. The average
Oh indeed. The average person in the UK is totally oblivious to the wonders of obscure prog rock & death metal acts from the late ’60s to present day and never takes part in illegal
deathstreet races which are apparently a thing.Personally I wouldn’t take what you read on the interweb as being “representative” of much at all. Therein lies the path to ruin. I prefer the path to Timmies. Or my local.
Left_is_for_Losers wrote:
Oh dear, I thought that for all your manifold faults you would at least be a patriot and yet here you are telling one of our overseas cousins that the rest of the UK isn’t intelligent, kind, considerate, caring and interested in ways of improving society and our environment. That’s not very patriotic of you. Heaven forfend that anyone should read these pages and think that you represent the average Briton…
Rendel Harris wrote:
What, are you seriously suggesting that the average road.cc reader is intelligent, kind, considerate, caring and interested in ways of improving society and our environment?
Dunno what you’ve been reading, maybe you’re getting mixed up. And, I thought you had a photographic memory, so surely you would know this.
I’d say I’m more of a whinger
I’d say I’m more of a whinger than a whiner but I don’t really know the difference to be honest. I’m not sure if I’m representative of the whole of the UK though. Sorry.
Forget helmets, let’s have
Forget helmets, let’s have whinger and whiner as the new divider
No shortage of helmets here.
No shortage of helmets here.
Whinger & Whiner – the TalkTv
Whinger & Whiner – the TalkTv version of Bodger & Badger?
Clem Fandango wrote:
I’m just watching Sherlock
I’m just watching Sherlock Holmes on TV. One of the characters just shouted through a locked door ” Mrs Fenning! Master Bates!” On daytime TV. How do they get away with it? Anyway, that’s my whinge/ whine for the day.
perce wrote:
You’re only allowed one?
That was a cancelled Bond
That was a cancelled Bond film wasn’t it?
Fanny Fenning was slated for the theme song on that one.
I think you’re confusing
I think you’re confusing similar titles – “You’re Only Allowed One!” was of course a slightly risque (for its day) Ealing Comedy featuring much innuendo and a classic scene with a fight over cargo-bike parking.
One what?
One what?
Whinge/whine
Whinge/whine