Motorbike rider hits pensioner, so Twitter blames cyclists; Delivery cyclists jump red lights to avoid losing income, says Deliveroo rider; Jordan Peterson on LTNs; New year, same train bike storage woes; Estonian pro hit by driver + more on the live blog

ShutTheFrontDawes wrote:

Indeed. I have never found that to be the case personally (perhaps I've been lucky), but I expect that GWR staff would be helpful and resolve the issue if asked - I find that usually are helpful about other stuff. Perhaps the tweeter reserved a space but if they did, I bet they would have said "my reserved bike space" or similar. Seems like a complete non-issue to me.

It can vary a lot with GWR staff. When they first brought in the booking scheme, some staff were adamant about no bikes being allowed without being booked (even though it was often impossible to book), but GWR's policy was disputed and most of the staff were more relaxed about it. (NB. Local services did not allow bike spaces to be booked).

I remember there was one particular ticket inspector who had apparently (according to him) been in trouble with 'elf and safety for allowing too many bikes on board and thereafter was very strict with bike storage. That was on the older trains that just had a space with folding seats that could be used for bikes, passengers and wheelchair users. With some logistical experience, you could fit in a large number of bikes, but the official capacity was for only two or three. Some very annoyed cyclists had to get the later train when that guard was on duty.

However, I'd agree that GWR's staff are generally very polite and helpful.

hawkinspeter wrote:

ShutTheFrontDawes wrote:

Indeed. I have never found that to be the case personally (perhaps I've been lucky), but I expect that GWR staff would be helpful and resolve the issue if asked - I find that usually are helpful about other stuff. Perhaps the tweeter reserved a space but if they did, I bet they would have said "my reserved bike space" or similar. Seems like a complete non-issue to me.

It can vary a lot with GWR staff. When they first brought in the booking scheme, some staff were adamant about no bikes being allowed without being booked (even though it was often impossible to book), but GWR's policy was disputed and most of the staff were more relaxed about it.

I remember there was one particular ticket inspector who had apparently (according to him) been in trouble with 'elf and safety for allowing too many bikes on board and thereafter was very strict with bike storage. That was on the older trains that just had a space with folding seats that could be used for bikes, passengers and wheelchair users. With some logistical experience, you could fit in a large number of bikes, but the official capacity was for only two or three. Some very annoyed cyclists had to get the later train when that guard was on duty.

My experience of GWR staff is that the newer ones, say recruited in the last 6 years, tend to be far better than the old codgers that seem impossible to sack.

Some GWR staff are downright appalling, more so than any other company I've encountered. And some of those old codgers really REALLY hate bikes and cyclists.

Best thing by far about the pandemic for me is the reduction in time I spend on GWR trains.

JustTryingToGetFromAtoB wrote:

My experience of GWR staff is that the newer ones, say recruited in the last 6 years, tend to be far better than the old codgers that seem impossible to sack. Some GWR staff are downright appalling, more so than any other company I've encountered. And some of those old codgers really REALLY hate bikes and cyclists. Best thing by far about the pandemic for me is the reduction in time I spend on GWR trains.

Some of the nicest staff have been the older ones. I remember being really impressed with how one of them (Vince?) was helping a confused, drunk woman (this was early in the morning) and he treated her with dignity even though she was having a lot of trouble following his instructions.

I agree. A 60-odd platform attendant showed me how to download an app and pay for station parking because I couldn't get the machine to work. He was so nice and helpful and could tell I was really stressed because I was nearly late for my train. It was the first time I'd been to London since COVID and was already pretty stressed by the scenario. He was lovely.

hawkinspeter wrote:

JustTryingToGetFromAtoB wrote:

My experience of GWR staff is that the newer ones, say recruited in the last 6 years, tend to be far better than the old codgers that seem impossible to sack. Some GWR staff are downright appalling, more so than any other company I've encountered. And some of those old codgers really REALLY hate bikes and cyclists. Best thing by far about the pandemic for me is the reduction in time I spend on GWR trains.

Some of the nicest staff have been the older ones. I remember being really impressed with how one of them (Vince?) was helping a confused, drunk woman (this was early in the morning) and he treated her with dignity even though she was having a lot of trouble following his instructions.

Just because the members of staff are older - it doesn't mean that they've been employed of a long time. He wasn't generalising based on their age, but rather their length of employment - though I'm not sure how you'd determine that and why it is any better than generalising based on age.

jh2727 wrote:

Just because the members of staff are older - it doesn't mean that they've been employed of a long time. He wasn't generalising based on their age, but rather their length of employment - though I'm not sure how you'd determine that and why it is any better than generalising based on age.

Yes, although there does seem to be some correlation between length of service and age. I've got nothing against the younger/newer staff, but it does seem that experience counts for a lot with a tough customer service job.

jh2727 wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

JustTryingToGetFromAtoB wrote:

My experience of GWR staff is that the newer ones, say recruited in the last 6 years, tend to be far better than the old codgers that seem impossible to sack. Some GWR staff are downright appalling, more so than any other company I've encountered. And some of those old codgers really REALLY hate bikes and cyclists. Best thing by far about the pandemic for me is the reduction in time I spend on GWR trains.

Some of the nicest staff have been the older ones. I remember being really impressed with how one of them (Vince?) was helping a confused, drunk woman (this was early in the morning) and he treated her with dignity even though she was having a lot of trouble following his instructions.

Just because the members of staff are older - it doesn't mean that they've been employed of a long time. He wasn't generalising based on their age, but rather their length of employment - though I'm not sure how you'd determine that and why it is any better than generalising based on age.

Anecdata on my part. In the before time, I used to commute 5 days a week. You got to know the faces and the arseholes were more memorable... they had been arseholes for years. Then, after a few years it looked like Worst Late Western went on a hiring spree, new faces... and they seemed like normal human beings that could interact with other humans.

In fairness, I will give a shout out to:
Assistance team at Pad... when I was on crutches for a long time those guys were legends
Small old guy who used to mostly worked on customer service desk in Rdg back in the days it was manned - he was lovely. Haven't seen him in ages so hope he has retired with a big pension

I got the train to Nailsea on an inter city a few years back, on the way back it was a 2 coach train and I was refused passage with my bike. I then had the stress of wondering if I could get home. Cycled to Bristol station and luckily there were spaces on the paddington service and the guard let me on.

She's not criticising "people" for putting their luggage there.  She's criticising GWR for not having enough staff to ensure that, when the cycle spaces have been booked, they are kept clear for said bookings. 

Having used these trains myself, it's a pain in the backside getting on them - if you don't book your cycles, then you don't get on the train.  But even when you do book the space, and the space is then taken up by luggage, sometimes, the staff still won't let you on.  I've had to chase a ticket refund before now because of not being allowed on a train and then having to buy a new ticket for a later train because the ticket I had was for a booked seat that allowed me to travel on the train I had booked on.  

Is she? It seems to me that she is criticising people and GWR. She seems to be suggesting that the space is a bike space (it isn't) and that other people shouldn't be "allowed" to put their luggage there (they are) and she doesn't even mention that it was booked, and so I presume it wasn't.

So: if you had booked a bike onto that train, and had turned up at the station, and had got on the train to find that area filled with luggage and then a 'conductor' (or whatever they call them nowadays) tells you that because your bike can't go in there then you'll have to get off and catch the next train... So if all that happened, you'd be fine and dandy with it and go off with a spring in your step, would you?

brooksby wrote:

So: if you had booked a bike onto that train, and had turned up at the station, and had got on the train to find that area filled with luggage and then a 'conductor' (or whatever they call them nowadays) tells you that because your bike can't go in there then you'll have to get off and catch the next train... So if all that happened, you'd be fine and dandy with it and go off with a spring in your step, would you?

And because the next train isn't the one you had your bike booked on, they won't let you on that one either, and you're left standing on a rail platform with your bike, 150 miles from home with no idea what to do...

Had the tweeter made a reservation? Were staff unhelpful? Was there no space elsewhere?

I don't know the answer to any of those questions, and I make judgements based on facts presented. In the photo luggage was being stored in a location where luggage is allowed to be stored.

So I don't understand the outrage.

If you'd reserved a seat, and it was taken up by somebody's luggage, then you'd expect them to move it, so that you can use the facility that you booked - I don't see the bike space as being any different, so the reluctance of the train staff to help a cyclist with a reservation is puzzling.

If it is a space for bikes and luggage, then maybe a reservation should be required for either of those items.

belugabob wrote:

If you'd reserved a seat, and it was taken up by somebody's luggage, then you'd expect them to move it, so that you can use the facility that you booked - I don't see the bike space as being any different, so the reluctance of the train staff to help a cyclist with a reservation is puzzling. If it is a space for bikes and luggage, then maybe a reservation should be required for either of those items.

As I've mentioned, luggage can be stored elsewhere on train carriages, so there's little point in having a reservation system for it, unless you want to further reduce the chances of a cyclist being able to get their bike on a train.

I've never heard of people with luggage being turned away from trains, but it's not unusual for cyclists to be refused passage.

well on these trains...the reason that kind of sized luggage ends up in the broom cupboard, or that the broom cupboard even suggests its a shared luggage bike rack, is because there isnt the space elsewhere for that kind of luggage. They took out the old vestibule luggage space to make more room for extra seats.

you kind of get enough space under the seat infront to fit an airline carryon style size case, but anything bigger and you are quite literally stuffed if the seat next to you is taken.

There is luggage space available under seats, in the overhead racks and in racks at each end of each carriage between the seats and the doors. The racks between the seats and the doors (2x per carriage) are pretty big too.

Disclaimer: this has been true on all the GWR trains from Plymouth to Paddington that I have been on, but may not be true in all cases. I'm no train buff.

Im no train buff either, but Ive travelled on them enough to know what size bags I can get away with when I need to travel to various parts of the country on them, and those GWR ones are the absolute worst for luggage space, the seats are rock hard too.

The overhead racks are only big enough for a coat/laptop bag/handbag, the space under the seats as I say is big enough and designed clearly because they havent put a gigantic beam of metal there like on some trains, for airline cabin bag/case size only. The space at the end of the carriage you might fit one large case, but more often its full of overflowed cabin bag/case size stuff instead.

The chances are with a larger bag or suitcase the on train staff will direct you to the broom cupboard to store it, especially as youd be likely to leave it in the corridor otherwise which then means the catering trolley cant get through.

as a work colleague described them to me once, theyre high speed commuting trains now, they arent about transporting you and your luggage be that with bike or cases around the country, once you realise that, they make alot more sense.

Awavey wrote:

Im no train buff either, but Ive travelled on them enough to know what size bags I can get away with when I need to travel to various parts of the country on them, and those GWR ones are the absolute worst for luggage space, the seats are rock hard too.

The overhead racks are only big enough for a coat/laptop bag/handbag, the space under the seats as I say is big enough and designed clearly because they havent put a gigantic beam of metal there like on some trains, for airline cabin bag/case size only. The space at the end of the carriage you might fit one large case, but more often its full of overflowed cabin bag/case size stuff instead.

The chances are with a larger bag or suitcase the on train staff will direct you to the broom cupboard to store it, especially as youd be likely to leave it in the corridor otherwise which then means the catering trolley cant get through.

as a work colleague described them to me once, theyre high speed commuting trains now, they arent about transporting you and your luggage be that with bike or cases around the country, once you realise that, they make alot more sense.

To my mind, prioritising bike spaces would make perfect sense for high speed commuting trains. However, that does imply that we have logical, joined up transport services in this country rather than individual business fiefdoms

Once the revolution is here we'll realise commuting is best with bikes not traveling on the train but n+1 used at the destinations. Your own if you're always going the same place, but a last-miles national integrated rental system at all main stations at least. (In dreams and The Netherlands these exist at even minor stations).

https://www.ns.nl/en/door-to-door/ov-fiets

Multi-modal is why these exist:

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2019/08/20/finally-fully-open-utrecht...

chrisonatrike wrote:

Once the revolution is here we'll realise commuting is best with bikes not traveling on the train but n+1 used at the destinations. Your own if you're always going the same place, but a last-miles national integrated rental system at all main stations at least. (In dreams and The Netherlands these exist at even minor stations). https://www.ns.nl/en/door-to-door/ov-fiets Multi-modal is why these exist: https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2019/08/20/finally-fully-open-utrecht...

I disagree. Firstly, there's the cost associated with getting another bike. Then there's the security issue as transport hubs are going to have a big pile of bikes that aren't accessed overnight which gives thieves lots of time to grab the best ones. There's also the maintenance issue as you're not necessarily going to be able to keep the distant bike well repaired and it's going to be rough to arrive there to discover that a tyre is flat and you're going to be late for work.

It's much easier for people to keep their favourite commuter bike with them and all it requires is for train companies to have storage that can either house bikes or commuters (with or without luggage). Here's a good design from Denmark:

Awavey wrote:

well on these trains...the reason that kind of sized luggage ends up in the broom cupboard, or that the broom cupboard even suggests its a shared luggage bike rack, is because there isnt the space elsewhere for that kind of luggage. They took out the old vestibule luggage space to make more room for extra seats.

you kind of get enough space under the seat infront to fit an airline carryon style size case, but anything bigger and you are quite literally stuffed if the seat next to you is taken.

On very crowded trains, I've seen people with large wheeled suitcases either keep them with them by their seats or stand by the carriage doors with them. Neither of those options would be allowed for bikes if the train's crowded.

hawkinspeter wrote:

As I've mentioned, luggage can be stored elsewhere on train carriages, so there's little point in having a reservation system for it, unless you want to further reduce the chances of a cyclist being able to get their bike on a train.

I've never heard of people with luggage being turned away from trains, but it's not unusual for cyclists to be refused passage.

If there is luggage space elsewhere, then there should be no need for it to be in the cupboard with the bikes.

I see your point about luggage reservations potentially reducing the amount of bookable bike spaces, but that couldn't be any worse than booking your space then not being allowed to use it (shades of Rhod Gilbert's Egg and Cress sandwich)
Your last point illustrates the exact problem - unfair treatment of one type of customer over another (moreso when a space has been reserved)

belugabob wrote:

If you'd reserved a seat, and it was taken up by somebody's luggage, then you'd expect them to move it, so that you can use the facility that you booked - I don't see the bike space as being any different, so the reluctance of the train staff to help a cyclist with a reservation is puzzling.

If it is a space for bikes and luggage, then maybe a reservation should be required for either of those items.

It is a space for bikes and luggage. A reservation is not required for either type for it to be used, and the space can (but does not have to be) reserved for bikes but it cannot be reserved for luggage (which I think is a fair priority to cycles given that luggage can be stored elsewhere). It is my understanding (though I can't say I have an extensive knowledge of GWR policy, so this is based on my experience alone) that the bicycle racks are treated in the same way as seats. If a seat is reserved but is being used by someone other than the reserver, a short conversation usually resolves the issue and GWR Staff resolve the issue if not. I expect that the bike space would be the same, if reserved.

If the bike space was reserved by the tweeter I would expect GWR staff to be helpful. They usually are, in my experience at least.

Do you know whether the bike space was reserved? The tweeter didn't mention, which I find an interesting omission, so I presume they did not.

ShutTheFrontDawes wrote:

It is a space for bikes and luggage. A reservation is not required for either type for it to be used, and the space can (but does not have to be) reserved for bikes

Reservations are required for those trains: www.gwr.com/travelling-with-us/on-our-trains/bringing-your-bike. Bizarrely, only 4 bike reservations per train are allowed, despite many trains having 8-10 spaces. Often staff don't seem bothered about this but I have heard conductors threatening to remove unreserved bikes from unoccupied and unreservable spaces...

ShutTheFrontDawes wrote:

Do you know whether the bike space was reserved? The tweeter didn't mention, which I find an interesting omission, so I presume they did not.

Green/red lights above the compartment indicate whether reserved or not - I agree it would have been useful to know whether this particular space was reserved. If not, then luggage may be stored there - but the system is designed to work badly (even before you consider the nonsense of having to lift bikes vertically onto hooks that don't fit many tyres...).

That's interesting. I didn't know that reservations are required on those trains. Thank you for sharing.

In that case, I find it even more interesting that there was no mention of the space being reserved.

Seems even more like manufactured outrage to me.

Given that space for large luggage is more limited And is often not near its owners matching the two so you can ask is not so convenient. I guess you could just yell into the carriages either side? (I don't know GWR but on the East Coast/ Azuma carriages larger space is at either end of the carriage).

JustTryingToGetFromAtoB wrote:

I do agree that the real issue is that the reward system for gig cyclists rewards poor behaviour.

Yeah, I suspect that delivery bikes are the worst-ridden bicycles on the road for much the same reason that pay-by-the-parcel courier vans are by far the worst-driven vehicles on the road.

BalladOfStruth wrote:

Yeah, I suspect that delivery bikes are the worst-ridden bicycles on the road for much the same reason that pay-by-the-parcel courier vans are by far the worst-driven vehicles on the road.

I'd vote for school-run parents using their phones as being the worst driven vehicles on the road.