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Challenge dangerous driving or silently report? Driving instructor Ashley Neal weighs in on cyclist debate; Local angered by parking tickets vows not to drive, starts cycling; Bike lane removal protest; Cyclocross in a nutshell + more on the live blog

It’s been a while but Adwitiya is back on the road.cc live blog this Thursday, trying his best to jog his memory and remember how to bring you all the latest talk from the cycling world
02 November 2023, 15:56
Challenge dangerous driving or just stick to silent reporting? Driving instructor Ashley Neal weighs in on what should cyclists do...

Liverpool-based YouTube driving instructor Ashley Neal, has come out with his take on what should cyclists do when on the receiving end of dangerous driving, and it's one for you all to discuss.

Replying to a tweet by road.cc about the news of a motorist avoiding jail for deliberately ramming cyclist who questioned close pass, the son of former Liverpool and England footballer Phil Neal tagged the Detective Chief Superintendent of Met Police Andy Cox and asked: "Could this incident have ended without problem if your advice on challenge was different? Would you like to clarify what you think cyclist should do in these confrontational situations?"

When another Twitter user pointed out that this was a bad take by Neal, he countered saying: "Andy thinks challenge is acceptable, I disagree. Just report to the Police and that’s the end of it."

> CyclingMikey wishes Ashley Neal would "leave me alone" as YouTube driving instructor uploads another video criticising his approach

The back and forth went on for quite a bit, another cyclist pointing that "as a society we should be able to hold each other to account" and that it should be acceptable to tell somebody they’re wrong, adding that "the law should protect that, not treat it as antagonistic".

Neal responded saying: "He [Andy Cox] only thinks of things from the Police perspective. Imagine if I challenged every single person who treated myself and my learner drivers anything but perfectly. What message does that send to novice drivers?"

> “I wholeheartedly disagree with his approach” – YouTube driving instructor Ashley Neal on CyclingMikey

It's not like Ashley Neal hasn't tried to get his foot in cycling debates previously, saying that cyclists like CyclingMikey, who confront law-breaking drivers, actually create many road rage incidents.

In what in my opinion has turned out to be a quite meta and somewhat ironic discussion, should cyclists, who are actually the ones endangered by dangerous driving, be fearful of the fact that pointing it out to the drivers can lead to further escalation and thus, simply resort to 'silent reporting', hoping that the police would do their job and make the driver realise of the consequences of their actions?

Well, I don't think there's a right or wrong approach here per se, but as usual, we are interested to hear what you think about it...

02 November 2023, 17:27
Best spooky Halloween decoration?

Yeah it's a little late, but so were the cycle hangars which left this cyclist in this state of desolation...

02 November 2023, 16:27
Safety concerns after cyclist collision at notorious roundabout, as cycling campaigner remains in hospital after separate incident
The Plain roundabout, Oxford

Chairwoman of the Cyclox campaign group Dr Alison Hill is being treated for a serious leg injury following last week's incident involving a coach being driven in the city centre...

Cyclist safety concerns have again been heard in Oxford after five police cars and an ambulance attended the scene of a collision at a notorious roundabout, where a university academic was killed last year, after another collision, yesterday's just days after the chairwoman of an Oxford cycling campaign group was left hospitalised with a serious leg injury after a further collision in the city centre.

> Safety concerns after cyclist collision at notorious roundabout, as cycling campaigner remains in hospital after separate incident

02 November 2023, 14:55
Simon Pellaud walks for Gino Mäder 🖤
02 November 2023, 13:03
"This is a win, right?": Local angered by parking tickets vows to never use car park again... now cycles to shops

Parking ticket chaos? Or opening up alternatives to driving?

Locals at Worcester, are up in arms after many drivers were hit with £60 fines since the relaxations on parking restrictions in Henwick Park were curtailed this summer.

Out of all the fuss and commotion, one frustrated driver has said that he has now started cycling to the shops fearing he would be given a parking charge notice again, reports Worcester News.

Well, I see this as a win!

02 November 2023, 12:17
Game's gone soft! Dutch Headwind Cycling Championships cancelled, because it's too windy

The hype was good until it lasted. After much talk of being hard as nails, the NK Tegenwindfietsen, or the Dutch Headwind Cycling Championships, has in fact, been called off because it's *checks notes* too windy.

Earlier in the day, we reported the organiser of this crazy time-trial said that the conditions were "bleak, wet and incredibly windy" — perfect for the one of the most bizarre races of the cycling calendar when cyclists ride their sit-up-and-beg fixies facing gusts up to 120 km/hr for almost 9 kilometres.

"It's not called the NK Tegenwindfietsen for nothing!" were the words from the organiser. However, with a Code Orange in place due to the current Storm Ciarán in western Europe, the Championship has after all, been cancelled.

"We had prepared everything, everything is in the starting blocks. The weather is insane, but too intense. The peak speeds are too intense," said the organisers, adding that the average wind speed was still tolerable (I mean not for your average live blog host), but the gusts could have compromised the safety of the participants who would've had to ride their bikes along the Eastern Scheldt storm surge barrier in south-eastern part of the Netherlands.

The organisers added: "And of course we don't want that. Safety is at the top."

The participants, however, are of course disappointed. Roald from Brielle, one of them, said: "It seems like a bad joke. The NK Tegenwindfietsen has been cancelled by strong winds."

Omroep Zeeland reports that Roald was already ready with his bicycle when the event was called off. "It's a shame, because I was confident that I would make it. I had taken time off work, but then I think I'll get started anyway," he said, adding that he would have to take the bus back home now.
 

02 November 2023, 11:39
Cyclist shares shocking footage of driver ramming him off bike after close pass complaint, slams suspended sentence "an absolute waste of time"
Leicester incident screenshots (road.cc reader)

"Attacks on cyclists are becoming much more common... I believe it's time to give cyclists more protection under the law"...

A cyclist, injured after being deliberately rammed off his bike by a driver who had moments earlier close passed him, has shared the footage of the incident with road.cc and warned that the roads have become "very unsafe" and "attacks are becoming much more common", suggesting that cyclists need "more protection under the law."

> Cyclist shares shocking footage of driver ramming him off bike after close pass complaint, slams suspended sentence "an absolute waste of time"

02 November 2023, 10:37
The show must go on! Dutch Headwind Cycling Championships to take place today despite Code Orange due to Storm Ciarán

"It's not called the NK Tegenwindfietsen for nothing!"

The NK Tegenwindfietsen, or the Dutch Headwind Cycling Championships, is a bit of a crazy affair. Riding along the 8.5 km course against the wind on typical Dutch upright, single-speed bikes on the Oosterscheldekering (Eastern Scheldt storm surge barrier, that's a mouthful), it's absolutely one of the most bizarre, yet delightfully wholesome and very normal thing to do.

Contested by 300 riders every year during the autumn/winter season, with winds speeds possible over 120 km/hr, who wouldn't like to have the bragging rights of being the most gung-ho cyclist in the Netherlands?

But this year, with the incoming Storm Ciarán resulting in a Code Orange being declared by the Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute, the event is still on track to take place later today.

"It's perfect conditions here. Bleak, wet and incredibly windy," said organizer Robrecht Stoekenbroek in the radio program Zeeland Wordt Wakker. "It's not for nothing that it's called the NK Tegenwindfietsen. It's on the verge of a bit of craziness. It's part of it that where everyone goes in we go out."

However, if the safety is at stake, the event will be cancelled, he added. "We are keeping an eye on it very closely. If it were to become unsafe somewhere, we would act accordingly. So far, they are dream conditions. We start nicely at noon and then just keep an eye on it."

It's not like the event hasn't been cancelled due to well, dangerous headwinds. In 2020, the full-force of the Storm Ciara (ominously close-name to the current storm) forced the organisers to abandon the sixth edition of the championships.

Now you won't catch me in this time-trial ever (I'm ashamed but the Cardiff headwinds often get too much for me), but I hope those going out in the championship today have fun, and well, can just manage to move forward.

02 November 2023, 10:29
Cyclocross in a nutshell?
02 November 2023, 09:00
Cyclists stand in front of truck to stop it from removing a bike lane deemed as a “mistake” by the authorities... despite a 2-year public process

Portland, Oregon. One of the few American cities with a decent cycling infrastructure, and cyclists from the city were hoping to pave the way towards a greener, more inclusive urban future and bucking the trend of uber-American motonormativity.

However, they were met with an obstacle in the shape of a truck sent to strip down a cycle lane Northeast 33rd Avenue, only installed a month ago, now slated for removal by the Portland Bureau of Transportation (PBOT) without any notice.

Why? Because the Bureau deemed it as a "mistake" because they didn't do "enough public outreach". That is, despite the bike lane being a part of a plan that went through a 2-year public process, before being adopted by council by a 5-0 vote, with 4 of those council members still sitting today.

Cyclists block bike lane removing truck in Portland (Jonathan Maus/BikePortland)

Thankfully, the cyclists weren't quick to give up. Yesterday, concerned Portlanders took to the street to physically block the truck from going about with the stripping down.

"If people didn’t show up this morning, the bike lane would be gone," wrote Jonathan Maus, cycling campaigner and editor of Bike Portland.

In fact, the information about the removal of the bike lane wasn't even announced publicly by PBOT. Maus said: "We only found out because PBOT staff warned BikePortland anonymously that it was imminent."

Local bike advocacy group BikeLoud PDX responded by telling members to show up at the site yesterday morning. The idea was to take a closer look at the bike lanes in advance of a planned strategy session later this morning.

However, crews had already begun removing the bike lane as the activists showed up. One of them, former BikeLoud PDX Chair Kiel Johnson, rolled up to the scene and immediately stopped his bike in front of the oncoming truck. The truck driver stopped and Johnson stood there with his arms crossed.

Maus added: "It is clear that PBOT wanted this bike lane removed. Their statement to BikePortland yesterday was unambiguous. It said, “This segment of bike lane was installed by mistake and will be removed."

Once the truck operator left the corner of the street, he simply moved to another section of the bike lane a few blocks south and started the grinding-off process again. Activists then hopped on their bikes and stood in front to stop forward progress.

Several minutes passed and the truck was driven away once again. Eventually the contractors left for the day, but BikeLoud volunteers still stood their ground, staying in shifts to make sure it didn't return.

PBOT's Deputy Chief of Staff Cynthia Castro said" "PBOT is not continuing with removing the bike lane today, but we do need to have further conversation about this particular stretch."

But PBOT Director Millicent Williams isn’t on that page. Based on PBOT statements and that letter given to residents this morning, Director Williams did not plan to have any further conversation. The order was to remove the bike lane and it would be gone if not for the timely protest organized by BikeLoud PDX

Maus later provided an update saying: "Stalemate on 33rd. Crews said they are just modifying the bike lane. @PBOTinfo said yesterday it would be removed."

While this seems like a classic case of "confuse them with misinformation", cyclists have come together to slam the authorities' behaviour.

Cyclist Matthew Lewis wrote on Twitter: "So many city public works/transportation departments are fully rogue, and harbour so much animosity toward residents, this is only way forward.

"Until city councils get the courage to clean house, everyone should block their trucks & make it impossible for them to do more harm."

And Bike PDX member Ike said: "Why do the people have to fight for fucking bike lanes? @PBOTinfo needs to explain itself. And also GTFO with this waste of time and resources. This is the opposite of productive. We want more bike lanes, safer streets, more walkable neighborhoods, less dirtbag drivers."

Something tells me we haven't seen the end of this stand-off yet...

Adwitiya joined road.cc in 2023 as a news writer after graduating with a masters in journalism from Cardiff University. His dissertation focused on active travel, which soon threw him into the deep end of covering everything related to the two-wheeled tool, and now cycling is as big a part of his life as guitars and football. He has previously covered local and national politics for Voice Wales, and also likes to writes about science, tech and the environment, if he can find the time. Living right next to the Taff trail in the Welsh capital, you can find him trying to tackle the brutal climbs in the valleys.

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47 comments

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Wheelywheelygood | 5 months ago
0 likes

Good idea but if I reported every incident of appalling cycleing I see , ignoring red lights biking on the wrong side of the road turning without any signal riding out into traffic at junctions scattering people on pavements  hitting my  wheelchair on the pavement  riding after dark wearing no reflective gear with no lights ,  I would spend most of my time in the cop station as the stupidity of bikers is legendary in fact I think it's compulsory 

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perce replied to Wheelywheelygood | 5 months ago
2 likes

They also do one called ''London Grey''. I think ''London fog'' would be better and more appropriate.

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Steve K replied to perce | 5 months ago
2 likes

perce wrote:

They also do one called ''London Grey''. I think ''London fog'' would be better and more appropriate.

On holiday in Canada this summer, I discovered the drink "London Fog".  It's basically an Earl Grey tea vanilla latte (so Earl Grey tea, vanilla syrup and steamed milk).  No coffee shops over here seem to do it (including, apparently, Canadian chain Tim Hortons) but it's easy to make at home with the help of my wife's Velvetiser.  Strongly recommended.

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chrisonabike replied to perce | 5 months ago
1 like

London Grey puts me in mind of an ex-pat urban parrot.

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StuInNorway | 5 months ago
3 likes

With Ashley Neal it's important to remember that to him this is more about a refenue stream than road safety. He is desperate to drive people to his monetised videos, regularly simply taking other people's videos to then use them to earn his own income. 
He is also incapable of dealing with anyone who disagrees with him. On his Youtube channel, anyone who points out his contradicting advice or attitudes is imply muted creating an echo chamber for his ego. (such as his normal slating of any cyclist passing a red light, compared to his ride in London with Travis and the car where the pair of them sail through a red light several seconds after it changes... Something Travis has publicly stated he does regularly.. with Ashley saying this was the "right decision)
He also spouts his mantra of "make it a non event" while at the same time posting a video of himself on a bike having an argument with a bus driver after he placed himself in the driver's blindspot as he was waiting to leave a bus-stop.
Many of you will remember his analysis of Jeremy Vine being reversed into by a van... Well Ashley "loved" comments on his video that were clearly wishing harm on Jeremy and other cyclists, including one stating that it was a shame he hadn't "collected his Darwin award"....
The last thing we need to do is give this poor escuse for a driving instructor more publicity.
 

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Car Delenda Est | 5 months ago
5 likes

While Ashley's victim blaming take is wrong, essentially implying it's the cyclist's fault they got attacked, I do think it's better to quietly report than challenge.
If they just get caught by the police's apparent many eyes and ears then they might question their assumptions about being able to get away with it in future and will be more likely to accept it as justice. However if challenged they'll just view as something done to them by some cyclist they'll never see again.

Also in a perfect world a motorist would wait a few minutes before driving again after being challenged so that they weren't driving distracted, in the real world they just jump straight back into the car and drive off into the next accident.

That said I have yet to find the serenity needed to practice what I'm preaching in the moment.

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Langoo replied to Car Delenda Est | 5 months ago
4 likes

Sounds great silently report👍 unfortunately systems for reporting are not always up to the task. Were I am (Scotland) we still don't have online 3 rd party reporting. The process of reporting and submitting video evidence is a major barrier.

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stonojnr | 5 months ago
5 likes

Ashley Neal has published videos that include him challenging dangerous driving when he was cycling.

So I don't understand the point he is making.

Personally I challenge by drawing attention to it, whilst focusing on my safety first, in so much as to show other drivers on the road what's acceptable and what's not.

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Backladder | 5 months ago
19 likes

Ashley Neal wrote:

When another Twitter user pointed out that this was a bad take by Neal, he countered saying: "Andy thinks challenge is acceptable, I disagree. Just report to the Police and that’s the end of it."

Ashley is absolutely right, if we just report it to the police that will be the end of it as no further action will be taken.

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Rendel Harris replied to Backladder | 5 months ago
8 likes

Backladder wrote:

Ashley Neal wrote:

When another Twitter user pointed out that this was a bad take by Neal, he countered saying: "Andy thinks challenge is acceptable, I disagree. Just report to the Police and that’s the end of it."

Ashley is absolutely right, if we just report it to the police that will be the end of it as no further action will be taken.

That's the thing, sometimes the Met will refuse to act on an absolute slam dunk dangerous/careless and sometimes act on one that I pondered a long time about whether it was worth submitting. If I think it's safe to do so I will let a driver know what they've done wrong and that they're on camera in the hope that even if the police won't act they might reflect on the fact that there are a lot of cyclists with cameras out there and that they might not be so fortunate next time.

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Oldfatgit | 5 months ago
4 likes

Ashley Neal ... he's just some ordinary dude with a dashcam.
What makes his opinion so valuable compared to the average Joe?

Nothing.

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HoarseMann | 5 months ago
11 likes

I think Ashley Neal would have a point if he himself regularly cycled and reported dangerous drivers to the police. He would at least be speaking from a position of experience.

It's not always possible to remain in a zen-like state of calm when threatened. In other areas of life we are encouraged to speak out and challenge poor behaviour, why should driving be a special case? Just because some drivers are nutters?

Confronting bad behaviour is not always pretty, but I'm not sure a society of bystanders is any better. 

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mctrials23 | 5 months ago
13 likes

I have no real issue with Ashley Neal. I think he is generally a force for good when it comes to cyclists. We seem to have a large tendency to be overly idealistic and completely forget that great is the enemy of good. Are his opinions or takes perfect? No. Are they changing drivers opinions and is he slowly but surely understanding life as a cyclists? I think so. 

As is always the case when it comes to drivers vs cyclists, the somewhat important distinction is always conveniently ignored. Risk. Danger. A driver pulling out in front of me when I am doing 30 in a car will almost certainly do me little to no damage. Same situation on a bike and I could easily be dead or badly injured. Thats the issue. When people talk about cyclists doing things they shouldn't they completely ignore this fact. 

When someone pulls out on me in a car I think "what a pillock" but there is no thought of them having nearly killed me. Unsurprisingly "what a pillock" vs "you nearly fucking killed me you complete ****" are different emotions. 

This is why its hard for cyclists to just "get on with it" and let it go. Fundamentally we are all dealing with the fact people happily put our lives at risk to save themselves a few seconds or because they can't be bothered to give driving their vague attention. 

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belugabob replied to mctrials23 | 5 months ago
2 likes
mctrials23 wrote:

I have no real issue with Ashley Neal. I think he is generally a force for good when it comes to cyclists. We seem to have a large tendency to be overly idealistic and completely forget that great is the enemy of good. Are his opinions or takes perfect? No. Are they changing drivers opinions and is he slowly but surely understanding life as a cyclists? I think so. 

As is always the case when it comes to drivers vs cyclists, the somewhat important distinction is always conveniently ignored. Risk. Danger. A driver pulling out in front of me when I am doing 30 in a car will almost certainly do me little to no damage. Same situation on a bike and I could easily be dead or badly injured. Thats the issue. When people talk about cyclists doing things they shouldn't they completely ignore this fact. 

When someone pulls out on me in a car I think "what a pillock" but there is no thought of them having nearly killed me. Unsurprisingly "what a pillock" vs "you nearly fucking killed me you complete ****" are different emotions. 

This is why its hard for cyclists to just "get on with it" and let it go. Fundamentally we are all dealing with the fact people happily put our lives at risk to save themselves a few seconds or because they can't be bothered to give driving their vague attention. 

Very true.
If cyclists (or any other member of society) feels that they should 'get on with it" they are reinforcing the mindset of the person committing the offence (be it dangerous driving, or something else) that they can "just get on with it" without any redress - and the downward spiral continues, until there is no society.

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chrisonabike replied to belugabob | 5 months ago
0 likes

Hmm... tricky this. Cyclists - or pedestrians - are in a very vulnerable position on the road. Calling out bad driving is trying to educate someone at a very unpropitious time. They may be full of emotion but are quite likely not full of respect! In the case of cyclists someone driving is quite likely to see them as less than full "citizens of the road".

Certainly people need feedback for behaviour change. But it takes a lot / regular feedback.

There are still very few cyclists in most places in UK. And our feedback to bad drivers isn't backed up by training (once per lifetime for most). Or the police and courts (very little enforcement, police and CPS don't take this seriously, courts don't convict, sentence are light). Or social attitudes generally.

The last might be different with a higher proportion if people cycling - but how to get there...?

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Andrewbanshee replied to chrisonabike | 5 months ago
4 likes

Tbh I have almost been killed and also seriously injured a fair few times and on each occassion I have shouted aloud. Reflex thing. The last time the drivist decided to break check me, slow down to a crawl and weave about the road, threaten to pull in, perhaps to teach me a lesson.
I suppose I ought to wear a gag whenever I cycle because you know how sensitive drivists are and how evil people on bikes are.
One last thing. Stay behind a dangerous driver once they have almost wrecked your life. Secondly, if they do stop, you are protecting yourself from harm and using reasonable force. Remember that.

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Adam Sutton | 5 months ago
4 likes

Independent of the journo, road.cc seems to have a rinse and repeat template for anything relating to Ashley Neal

1) mention he's the son of a footballer - check

2) bring up cycling mikey whinging to be left alone - check

3) be sure to mention he is a youtuber - check

4) Ad Hominen - check

Jesus, change the record. Apart from anything it is actually a pretty valid point across all incidents on the road. My first encounter with road rage was when learning to drive and the A20 being closed, the reason transpired to be the murder of Stephen Cameron by Kenneth Noye in a road rage incident.

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Matthew Acton-Varian replied to Adam Sutton | 5 months ago
3 likes

Generally speaking, it is much better practice to remain calm in order to resolve issues, so I understand Ashley's point. However, when another party is agressive from the beginning, it is human instinct to react or retalliate. It's never as straightforward especially when someone has a 2-ton mobile weapon at their disposal. Sometimes even the most calm and elloquant requests can be met with uncalled for rage simply because people don't like to be proven wrong or shown to be at fault.

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Adam Sutton replied to Matthew Acton-Varian | 5 months ago
2 likes

Matthew Acton-Varian wrote:

However, when another party is agressive from the beginning, it is human instinct to react or retalliate. It's never as straightforward especially when someone has a 2-ton mobile weapon at their disposal. Sometimes even the most calm and elloquant requests can be met with uncalled for rage simply because people don't like to be proven wrong or shown to be at fault.

Sure, I mean I ended up calling my neighbour a cunt when he pulled a stupid overtake. Doesn't stop the point Ashley Neal is making being valid, nor the ridiculous need to resort referencing his football links. Poor journalism.

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LeadenSkies replied to Adam Sutton | 5 months ago
2 likes

I am not known for being a shrinking violet when my hackles are raised and have confronted people in the past but recently I have stopped challenging people about their driving. It simply isn't worth it and the risk of meeting a psychopath in a two tonne weapon is too high. I now try to shake my head to myself, report it to the police if I feel it warrants it and get on with my ride.

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Adam Sutton replied to LeadenSkies | 5 months ago
2 likes

100%

Had an incident yesterday and just about to check my camera. I ended up alongside the car at the next lights and it just isn't worth engaging beyond reporting.

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Hirsute replied to LeadenSkies | 5 months ago
9 likes

I've seen tweets where the cyclist says the driver reacted to a shaken head. I've certainly had people watching the rear view mirror after a close pass to see my reaction.

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LeadenSkies replied to Hirsute | 5 months ago
1 like

The difference between an obvious and demonstrative shake of the head and a shake my head to myself. I can't be arsed to waste the effort in a massive demonstration of my displeasure, it just validates these idiots' view of cyclists as the enemy. Revenge is a dish best served cold, or more hopefully as a NIP in the post a few days later.

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OnYerBike replied to Adam Sutton | 5 months ago
5 likes

Ad hominem would be saying Ashley can't possibly know anything about road safety because he is the son of a footballer. Stating that he is the son of a footballer and prominent youtuber is not ad hominem - it is providing context as to why Ashley's comments are being reported on, compared to any number of other opinionated people posting on the internet. Adwitiya doesn't even state whether or not he agrees with Ashley - he says it's "one for you all to discuss".

And as for Cycling Mikey, given the previously reported story is highly relevant (i.e. about whether or not to confront illegal drivers) it would be odd not to mention it.

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Adam Sutton replied to OnYerBike | 5 months ago
0 likes

It's an attempt to discredit the person and their credibility rather than any point the person is making. Simple as, and quite common on here. It's the modus operandi of a number of members as well.

Let's see road.cc start referring to Jeremy Vine as gameshow host in their articles eh?

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chrisonabike replied to Adam Sutton | 5 months ago
2 likes

They do seem to do this by number!

However what do you suggest to cover why they're reporting on him anyway / introduction?  "Some guy called Ashley Neal" or "A random driving instructor (dunno why, but we seem to pick up on his opinions somehow)"?  Didn't see an ad hom this time though (unless you're counting 1 maybe)?

But yeah, I saw this and was looking for marka1 posting a "sailor chumming the water" pic.

FWIW I don't run cameras (yet) and can't remember the last time I complained to a driver - I tend to follow BikeSnobNYC's tack.  OTOH that hasn't stopped several people having a crack at me while out on my bike.  I really doubt they were CM "fans" or had met any other "confrontational cyclists".  A substantial fraction of the population drive or ride in cars, so even if there's a tiny portion with serious issues / who just hate them a cyclist 'cos different, or "they're in the way" that would still be lots of people.

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Adam Sutton replied to chrisonabike | 5 months ago
0 likes

"Ad hominem, (Latin: “against the man”) in full argumentum ad hominem, type of argument or attack that appeals to prejudice or feelings or irrelevantly impugns another person’s character instead of addressing the facts or claims made by the latter."

Is there any need to reference, or please explain why Ashley's links to football have any relevance to ANY article that references his opinion on driving or cycling matters?

As I mentioned on the other reply, Jeremy Vine is never mentioned in a similar manner and only in the capacity of his actions with regards cycling. In fact often his behaviour is arguably questionable, yet he gets a free pass seemingly simply because he is a "cyclist".

I generally use a camera more for capturing moments when out. Such as a near collision with a stoat (one of the more bizarre) and prefer to try (as a road user, rather than simply a cyclist) to have a more possive outlook and impact. Example being the repeated reporting of the poor condition of one of the few, yet widely used, pieces of cycle infrastructure local to me. The result being it is now more regularly swept clear, although another report is necessary it seems!

Edit (hope that is OK) just to add Ashley has at least tried to look at road use from the perspective of both driving and cycling. Vine like some on here, has a purely cycling centric viewpoint and one that is London centric, which isn't the reality even for the likes of myself living on the Kent/London border. To many here though it is just a binary case of bike good/car bad. So yeah, personal attacks and ad hominem are expected and the norm to anyone not towing that line.

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chrisonabike replied to Adam Sutton | 5 months ago
0 likes

Adam Sutton wrote:

"Ad hominem, (Latin: “against the man”) in full argumentum ad hominem, type of argument or attack that appeals to prejudice or feelings or irrelevantly impugns another person’s character instead of addressing the facts or claims made by the latter." Is there any need to reference, or please explain why Ashley's links to football have any relevance to ANY article that references his opinion on driving or cycling matters?

Well I dunno why they use it - perhaps mail road.cc and ask?  As a regular it does seem to be a trope.  Charitably though "news" outlets always want to identify people by some (generally reductive) characteristic and maybe more than just the regulars pass by here.  Vine is (for reasons beyond my understanding) a public figure but Ashley Neal is much less prominent - apart from the connection with his well-known father.  See - I can just put "Vine" and expect to have most people follow, but not "Neal"...

Adam Sutton wrote:

I generally use a camera more for capturing moments when out. Such as a near collision with a stoat [...] repeated reporting of the poor condition of one of the few, yet widely used, pieces of cycle infrastructure local to me. The result being it is now more regularly swept clear, [...]

Excellent uses; I occasionally consider getting cameras for those odd interesting things in passing.  Stopping and phone covers most of that though.  Plus I realise I would probably find reviewing stuff and clearing it out a chore.  Certainly "reporting" things seems a serious labour of love - or another emotion!

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Adam Sutton replied to chrisonabike | 5 months ago
3 likes

I think if you use a bike in traffic heavy areas it is worth running a camera, not just for reporting but more for evidence if anything does happen and to protect yourself.

Same as dash cams in cars. We never use to have one until my other half had someone pull out on a roundabout and hit him. It was clearcut fortunately, but didn't stop them even a year after trying it on, clearly after a no win no fee kind of parasitic solicitor had got onto them. It never even came close to court bit dash cam evidence would have taken a lot of the stress away.

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chrisonabike replied to Adam Sutton | 5 months ago
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Don't currently have a car, but (probably reading here too much) I would likely run one if I get one again.

I'm less optimistic about the value of one for cycling.  Too much looking at videos (or cases) here where apparently little weight has been given to video evidence.  And that's assuming footage is helpful - or even viewable.

I suppose I don't consider that I'd seriously damage someone cycling.  I try to ride with the same awareness / courtesy as when driving and statistically is is extremely unlikely.  Perhaps I should?

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