"I gave a warning toot": Confused driver can't understand why cyclist "hurled abuse"; Giro stage or BMX race? (+ Ewan exits); Prosecco-popping alternative; The cycle lane impossible dream; Bikes meet bouldering; Positive policing + more on the live blog

I think that is called tyre road noise.

That sort of toot is nothing more than get out of my way.

They fitted one to the Ineos Grenadier, has a little cyclist logo and everything, now on sale if you're interested, we all agreed it was a terrible idea, the special horn not just the car

unless it warbled like a classic DS team car horn did

henryb wrote:

Cars need an alternative 'horn' for this kind of warning that just makes the sound of a polite cough

That's exactly what my MINI does when I let off the loud pedal. Papapap. It's also equivalent to when I stop pedalling when approaching pedestrians on a shared path so they hear my freewheel first.

andystow wrote:

That's exactly what my MINI does when I let off the loud pedal.

Are you sure you're not driving a piano?

mdavidford wrote:

andystow wrote:

That's exactly what my MINI does when I let off the loud pedal.

Are you sure you're not driving a piano?

The size and weight are similar, but I never learned to play the piano, so I doubt it.

The problem is not just the loudness. I'm guessing that if this guy was in central London, he wouldn't give a "toot" at every cyclist he wasn't certain knew of his presence, because he'd be doing it every couple of seconds.

On a road with few cyclists, say my nine mile morning commute where I seldom see another cyclist, each driver would encounter and "toot" at exactly one cyclist: me. I, on the other hand, would be honked at hundreds of times if everyone did that. And I would eventually start throwing things, or mount a very loud rear-facing horn to my bicycle.

tigersnapper wrote:

I think part of the issue here is we are all used to drivers being aggressive to us. 

And other drivers, to be fair. I've had a driving... lichenze for fourteen years now and been a cyclist on-and-off for 20. I don't think I've ever seen (heard?) the horn used as advised in the HC.

HORN!

tigersnapper wrote:

I think part of the issue here is we are all used to drivers being aggressive to us.  I have had a few that seem to be aware we are vulnerable recently and being, if anything, overly courteous.  I think we might need to accept there are some drivers out there who mean well, even if they are a bit misguided.

The problem with car horns is that they have to be very loud to be heard above traffic noise by people inside metal boxes and this makes them quite startling if used behind you when you're cycling. Also, the main (only) purpose of a horn is to warn another road user that you are there (e.g. if a vehicle is reversing towards your vehicle having not seen you), so there is no point using a horn if you are following a cyclist unless they are about to turn across your path.

Blimey, you lot are fickle this morning .

BallardOfStruth - I didn't mean all drivers, honest.  I've always believed it's only a minority that are abusive.

Hawkinspeter - I'm not defending his use of the horn, just the intention, hence 'misguided'.

tigersnapper wrote:

BallardOfStruth - I didn't mean all drivers, honest.  I've always believed it's only a minority that are abusive.

Sorry, I meant that drivers are aggressive to other drivers as well as us. My point is that misuse of the horn is now the default. Almost nobody uses the horn to say "excuse me guys, just letting you know I'm here", almost everybody uses the horn to say "what are you doing, you prick!?". So when most people hear the horn, on a bike or in a car, they're likely to interpret the latter meaning.

True and, as you've said elsewhere, the use of flashing headlights.  And in fairness I'm not defending the guy in this instance (don't know the circumstances fully) just giving him the benefit of the doubt 'cos I'm in a good mood.

Ashley's got the horn for making loud noises.

https://road.cc/content/news/ashley-neal-divides-opinion-use-horn-290765

I recall something else from him about issues passing cyclists.  I put that down to hypercorrecting for the new highway code wording.  However even though I've not watched much of his output I still think many drivers could improve by watching him.  Given the acceptable "standard of a careful competent driver" in real life.

The two things I remember were him saying regarding the HC update were that the cyclists two-abreast should have gone single-file even though he had an entire empty lane to move into (because he thought that he'd technically be passing them with less than 1.5m). The other one was that every time you drove past cyclists two-abreast coming the other way, he's under the impression that you'd be breaking the law (for the same reason). As you say, hypercorrecting for the updates.

I generally think his videos are good, but he's not great at seeing things from the perspective of another type of road user, and he doesn't like to admit when he's wrong.

BalladOfStruth wrote:

I generally think his videos are good, but he's not great at seeing things from the perspective of another type of road user,

Driving

BalladOfStruth wrote:

and he doesn't like to admit when he's wrong.

Instructor.

(I'm aware there are other driving instructors available and some no doubt excellent.)

Yeah. I think he means well, but the danger with him is that he releases videos advising cyclists too, and some of his advice is more than a little dubious. There was one a few weeks ago where he priased a cyclist riding in the door-zone, and when that was pointed out, he just would not accept it was an issue because the cyclist was "riding slow enough to react" - we all know that you can be doored at 1mph if the door opens as you get to it.

I almost got doored as a ped when on the pavement. Just got my left arm up in time to grab the door edge.

Words were exchanged but the driver did not feel he had done anything wrong.

I've been doored as a ped on the pavement a few times actually. It's probably the reason I instinctively ride miles away from parked cars without ever having being told to.

It's the difference in scale that makes the difference.

This isn't about cyclists racing past pedestrians on a shared path - that would be like a close pass from a driver, which isn't described here.

A bell is not like being honked at.

The cyclist knew the car was there, but the aggression of the horn appears to be his trigger. A bell is just not aggressive.  Calling out is not aggressive.  The equivalence you're describing is associated with passing the pedestrians.

There is also another factor.  While it is inconceivable that the cyclist was unaware of the car behind, it is not uncommon to encounter single, or groups of, pedestrians oblivious to their surroundings.  Regardless of their place in the hierarchy, they retain a responsibility (as all road users do) to be aware of their surroundings and others using the road.  In most instances, even a cyclist racing past should not come as a surprise. So a call out or a bell should not make them jump in the same way an unnecessary honk might.

Sriracha wrote:

I appreciate the difference in scale, but I'd imagine a similar scenario plays out between cyclists and pedestrians when the cyclist uses their bell right behind the pedestrian, or yells out "on your right!"

Exactly my thoughts.

I have certainly had more abuse using a bell than just shouting 'excuse me'. 

Yeah, I've got to say that in my experience peds don't tend to react great to bells. When I encounter a ped in the segregated bike lane and give a couple of rings from the bell (from miles back) it seems to be 50/50 on them moving out of the way of just giving be abuse. Calling out "excuse me"/"on your left" seems to be recieved better, but you have to be closer to do it.

Yep, I wouldn't yell 'on your right' at a pedestrian. I've only ever deployed that on other riders during a cycling event.

There's a reason trams have bells and horns. Ashley Neal is not the only one confused about this, the blackbeltbarrister had a bit of an unconvincing rant about it too... https://youtu.be/cW_cSfOqmn4

HoarseMann wrote:

Yep, I wouldn't yell 'on your right' at a pedestrian. I've only ever deployed that on other riders during a cycling event.

I hate it when people shout that, whether I'm on a bike or on foot. By the time I've worked out which side that actually is (and then that that means I need to go the opposite way) it's already too late, and then I get the evils for not having responded the way they wanted me to.

mdavidford wrote:

HoarseMann wrote:

Yep, I wouldn't yell 'on your right' at a pedestrian. I've only ever deployed that on other riders during a cycling event.

I hate it when people shout that, whether I'm on a bike or on foot. By the time I've worked out which side that actually is (and then that that means I need to go the opposite way) it's already too late, and then I get the evils for not having responded the way they wanted me to.

I'm old fashioned, I use the full sentence - "Excuse me, I'm coming past on your right!"

I'd never alter the direction I was moving in, in response to a shout of 'on yer right'. I simply hold my line, not do anything unpredictable like slow,stop,speed up and just not go right leaving a nice big gap there till they had passed.

Any look back they do is just to check where you are when they pull back across, plus probably to make sure the elastic has snapped enough so you arent drafting their wheel too.