Pesky cyclists not using cycle lanes! Oh…that’s Wiggo!; Colombian kid keeps up with Tom Dumoulin and Rigoberto Urán; Heavily-criticised NFT Bike Club takes “feedback”; Cav watch; Cycling MP crashes; Bad infra; Muddy misery + more on the live blog

57 thoughts on “Pesky cyclists not using cycle lanes! Oh…that’s Wiggo!; Colombian kid keeps up with Tom Dumoulin and Rigoberto Urán; Heavily-criticised NFT Bike Club takes “feedback”; Cav watch; Cycling MP crashes; Bad infra; Muddy misery + more on the live blog”

1. That’s a rubbish cycle lane.

   That’s a rubbish cycle lane.

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   • OldRidgeback wrote:

     That’s a rubbish cycle lane.

     — OldRidgeback

     It could be kind of fun if it’s not busy and you can try out your slalom skills, but I wouldn’t fancy negotiating oncoming cyclists. I don’t know if it’s bidirectional or not.

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     • Wasn’t OldRidgeback referring

       Wasn’t OldRidgeback referring to the lane in the Wiggins item – I thought their comment was there before the chicane thing appeared on the blog?

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       • mdavidford wrote:

         Wasn’t OldRidgeback referring to the lane in the Wiggins item – I thought their comment was there before the chicane thing appeared on the blog?

         — mdavidford

         Maybe. The Wiggins lane looks fine to me as far as magic white paint goes.

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   • Am I the only one who thinks

     Am I the only one who thinks its not that bad?  Its obviously previously been a shopping street – though everything is now boarded up.   I see no harm in bit of a wiggle to keep speeds down whilst the chances of Pedestrian/Cyclist/Bus interactions are higher.

     Obviously a fully segregated lane would be better – but I’ve seen a lot worse.

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     • Secret_squirrel wrote:

       Am I the only one who thinks its not that bad?  Its obviously previously been a shopping street – though everything is now boarded up.   I see no harm in bit of a wiggle to keep speeds down whilst the chances of Pedestrian/Cyclist/Bus interactions are higher.

       Obviously a fully segregated lane would be better – but I’ve seen a lot worse.

       — Secret_squirrel

       I looked, I couldn’t see much wrong. The folder must be very thick indeed if every example worse than this is included.

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       • wycombewheeler wrote:

         I looked, I couldn’t see much wrong.

         — wycombewheeler

         Get an eyeful of the rest of it…

         https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/edinburgh-trams-news-developments.1657991/page-118

         In isolation, perhaps the narrow chicane is ok, but when the rest of it seems to be an obstacle course so bad that I would just use the road, it’s failed.

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         • HoarseMann wrote:

           Get an eyeful of the rest of it…

           https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/edinburgh-trams-news-developments.1657991/page-118

           In isolation, perhaps the narrow chicane is ok, but when the rest of it seems to be an obstacle course so bad that I would just use the road, it’s failed.

           — HoarseMann

           Indeed I agree with you.  This photo is the one that stuck out in your link 

         • TriTaxMan wrote:

           Indeed I agree with you.  This photo is the one that stuck out in your link 

           — TriTaxMan

           Nothing wrong with that – they’ve got an arrow showing where the lamp-post is

         • hawkinspeter wrote:

           Indeed I agree with you.  This photo is the one that stuck out in your link 

           — hawkinspeter

           Nothing wrong with that – they’ve got an arrow showing where the lamp-post is

           — TriTaxMan

           What is the white line along the footway at the left of the picture, I wonder?

           Are pedestrians supposed to stay to the left of that, and then cyclists stay on their shiny new (cr@p) cycle lane, so the space between the white line and the cycle lane is No Man’s Land or something?

         • brooksby wrote:

           What is the white line along the footway at the left of the picture, I wonder?

           Are pedestrians supposed to stay to the left of that, and then cyclists stay on their shiny new (cr@p) cycle lane, so the space between the white line and the cycle lane is No Man’s Land or something?

           — brooksby

           Pedestrians should stay behind it when cyclists are passing through, to avoid the air currents sucking them under the wheels.

       • wycombewheeler wrote:

         Am I the only one who thinks its not that bad?  Its obviously previously been a shopping street – though everything is now boarded up.   I see no harm in bit of a wiggle to keep speeds down whilst the chances of Pedestrian/Cyclist/Bus interactions are higher.

         Obviously a fully segregated lane would be better – but I’ve seen a lot worse.

         — wycombewheeler

         I looked, I couldn’t see much wrong. The folder must be very thick indeed if every example worse than this is included.

         — Secret_squirrel

         I note that it’s not finished yet.  So maybe some radical changes will happen.  The ridiculous parts – and they are – look pretty finished though.  Also I can’t see why you’d even make temporary infra with errors this bad.

         But it is possible – because they’re not yet finished the tram lines bit and are still moving everyone else around the space.

         What’s wrong?  It’s cargo cult.  No, not right, it’s like they had an OK designer drafting this but every so often they left and kids came into the room and monkeyed with the design.  There are some good features and sections.  But if you actually cycle on it for more than a hundred metres you’ll be thinking “did they have anyone who’d been on a bike in that team?”

         It’s great that they thought to bother at all, they didn’t try to do it with 200 quid’s worth of paint, they’ve got segregation.  All good.  But they’re spending our money – and you can see it was a lot of money – on things which don’t hang together.  Which aren’t going to persuade most people that cycling’s viable.

         You’d be pretty outraged if a motorway budget had gone on something which had sections of motorway per spec, but then a crossroads built into it.  Or sudden curves, or bits where it just stopped and you had to drive on a farm track briefly.  Obviously wacky stuff.  You’d probably think that was a waste of cash because the bad bits stop the good bits working properly.

         Here we’ve got a failure to draw a straight line when presented with essentially a mile long straight wide road.  Which they were completely redesigning.  We’ve got paths that direct you into lampposts, send you at pedestrians, which suddenly start and stop.  There’s a moment of divine inspiration / madness at one point I can’t explain or even describe.  Someone couldn’t figure out that when you’re moving at more than 5 mph what you need is a largely straight route and where there are bends they should be … bendy, you know, curved, not instantaneous changes in direction.

         I don’t understand, really.  There’s been plenty of consultation, they seem to have engaged with the local cycling group, they’ve Sustrans whispering in their ear (hmm…) they’ve had years of having goes at this etc.

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         • Update – the crazy street

           Update – the crazy street furniture (lampposts in middle of cycle path) are apparently temporary.  When tram tracks are completed apparently lights are going to be supported using / near their power wire pylons.

           Not sure about the drains, some other uneven parts or whether they’ll straighten out the slaloms.  The junction treatment still looks like it’s going to be “mix up the cyclists and pedestrians” though.  And I still think this is a bit interesting – inspired by Space Invaders?

     • I do wonder what the

       I do wonder what the reasoning was?  Is the ‘indented’ section of road a loading bay?

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       • I think (judging by the

         I think (judging by the textured paving used) the indented section is to create a pedestrian refuge island so that peds are crossing the cycle lane to a safe place, then crossing the all vehicle lane seperatly.

         We all know that peds will take the shortest straight line to thier required destination

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       • The zebra over the cycelway

         The zebra over the cycelway and that you can just seen a dropped kerb at the back ofthe ‘layby’ (you can see the kerb at the far edge tapering down) means this is a pedestrian crossing point.  nothings intended to be in the ‘layby’

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     • I think I can rationalise

       I think I can rationalise that kinked cycle lane.  They’ve done it to avoid runnning a kerbline over the two MH’s in the carriageway – they don’t look offset enough to get a kerb upagainst the brickwork that’ll be under the ground but offset from the opening under the lid. Its avoiding a costly diversion of the chambers.  It also looks like the tactile would be partially in the lid if it was at edge of carriageway.  Not all stats will allow recessed covers for block paving or tactiles.   The DYL should go round the back of ‘layby’ as well.

       The position of the gully makes this look like a construction issue not picked up on a drawing during design thats possibly been sorted out when it gets to site (if the kerbline moved, then the gully should be put on the corner, but has probably gone in first).  You can usually just mortar in the kerb up against the brickwork, must have been prevented from moving the kerbline out a bit, maybe due to the tramlines?

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     • Isn’t the give way triangle

       Isn’t the give way triangle upside down? It feels wrong. Surely they point away from the thing that has priority?

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       • I don’t think it’s a give way

         I don’t think it’s a give way triangle (that would be outline only, rather than solid) – it’s a ramp indicator.

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         • mdavidford wrote:

           I don’t think it’s a give way triangle (that would be outline only, rather than solid) – it’s a ramp indicator.

           — mdavidford

           Nope – I’ve checked them, most don’t have ramps that I can detect.  It’s when they got creative, that’s my best guess. Like the points in early South Park episodes where you’d think “and that’s were the acid really started hitting”.

         • chrisonatrike wrote:

           I don’t think it’s a give way triangle (that would be outline only, rather than solid) – it’s a ramp indicator.

           — chrisonatrike

           Nope – I’ve checked them, most don’t have ramps that I can detect.  It’s when they got creative, that’s my best guess. Like the points in early South Park episodes where you’d think “and that’s were the acid really started hitting”.

           — mdavidford

           Well I didn’t say there were ramps – just that they were ramp indicators. Clearly they forgot to actually put the ramps in…

         • mdavidford wrote:

           I don’t think it’s a give way triangle (that would be outline only, rather than solid) – it’s a ramp indicator.

           — mdavidford

           Nope – I’ve checked them, most don’t have ramps that I can detect.  It’s when they got creative, that’s my best guess. Like the points in early South Park episodes where you’d think “and that’s were the acid really started hitting”.

           — chrisonatrike

           Well I didn’t say there were ramps – just that they were ramp indicators. Clearly they forgot to actually put the ramps in…

           — mdavidford

           Good point.  Edinburgh have been better at this of late.  However we all know that no UK cycle or pedestrian designer can resist putting in ramps for too long. “Driveways!  Side road crossings!” they say happily…

   • OldRidgeback wrote:

     That’s a rubbish cycle lane.

     — OldRidgeback

     Not had a chance to go back in daylight for a bit but Leith Walk is a really wide street.  Given that they’ve now dug this up several times the missed opportunity to get this right ought to be shocking.  However it’s par for the course.  Some bits are… not bad for the UK.  The wiggles are the usual Edinburgh mess of “can’t seem to get floating bus stops quite right” plus large bins plus loading.  They also lost some space because it’s needed between the tram tracks for towers to support the tram power cables.  If I recall correctly they could have done this another way (e.g. support from sides) but the first time round (when they ran out of money to complete this section) I think they bought all these supports plus didn’t apply for the planning to do it another way, so tied themselves into these.

     Despite having effectively shut Leith Walk down several times over several years (tram 1 fiasco, tram again) I think the idea is still that even after adding the tram cars still have to have their space.  Certainly access is required to the many businesses (rightly aggrieved by all the previous mess. There will still be buses too – lots of routes run this way and the “tram” won’t replace them.  (The council always describe it as “tram” which is actually correct because the plans for several lines failed as the costs rose.  We even failed to complete the single line the first time round.)

     From meetings I’ve been to it seems that certain council folks “get” cycling – which is great.  However there’s vigorous opposition. It all results in the idea of “well if cyclists have something, everyone else has to have something” or “if you get an ‘advantage’ here you have to have a barrier there”.

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2. @Ritch Mitch.

   @Ritch Mitch.

   He seems to be under the the delusion that there are “good” NFT’s.  They are all climate destroying snake oil.  Its rather like trying to find a “good” Nazi.

   (Invokes Godwins law on his second post of the day )

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   • I have tried to understand

     I have tried to understand NFTs, I really have, to get what the value proposition is – but I really can’t. All I can conclude is that they’re a way to flag people who literally do not know what to do with their money. Even more so than personalised numberplates.

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     • Miller wrote:

       I have tried to understand NFTs, I really have, to get what the value proposition is – but I really can’t. All I can conclude is that they’re a way to flag people who literally do not know what to do with their money. Even more so than personalised numberplates.

       — Miller

       This fully explains NFTs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8f-BQFo7lw

       (Language may not be SFW)

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     • An NFT is a digital receit,

       An NFT is a digital receit, that is all. Like what you get when you go to Tesco exept made of 1s and 0s

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       • I don’t buy receipts when I

         I don’t buy receipts when I go to Tesco.

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       • MTB Refugee wrote:

         An NFT is a digital receit, that is all. Like what you get when you go to Tesco exept made of 1s and 0s

         — MTB Refugee

         It’s more like you go to Tesco, meet someone outside who sells you a receipt that says that you bought a tin of beans.

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         • And anyone can eat your tin

           And anyone can eat your tin of beans, but the important thing is that it will only ever be yours.

3. We have a red light near me
   We have a red light near me that I have been forced to run.

   Light controlled junction, right turn on a sensor, the sensor doesn’t pick up on a bike. Generally not an issue as most times of the day there are also cars but when I have been through early morning I have had to run it. Fortunately, given the time of day, there is typically no one else coming from the other direction so it’s safe.

   The bigger problem I have round here is the pedestrians forced to run red lights to cross the road… because the lights are not phased for pedestrians. The worst one is between a school and a park ffs. It’s also an absolutely bugger for motorists failing an amber gamble.

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   • One junction that it always

     One junction that it always amazes me doesn’t have a pedestrian crossing is the top of Colston Street in Bristol – streetview here: https://goo.gl/maps/HjWVyCrHknGvFi7W7

     So pedestrians coming along Upper Maudlin Street and wanting to cross the end of Colston Street and carry on their way have to just watch the traffic, pray to the gods that the lights don’t change behind them, and dash across.

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     • brooksby wrote:

       One junction that it always amazes me doesn’t have a pedestrian crossing is the top of Colston Street in Bristol – streetview here: https://goo.gl/maps/HjWVyCrHknGvFi7W7

       So pedestrians coming along Upper Maudlin Street and wanting to cross the end of Colston Street and carry on their way have to just watch the traffic, pray to the gods that the lights don’t change behind them, and dash across.

       — brooksby

       Sounds like ours. The school is a private boarding school so not many children in term time but it also hosts sports clubs and holiday clubs. It’s on down hill cross roads with three way lights. So… I’m holding the hand of 5 year old sproglet… we let a full run of phases go through because we need to go when the downhill has just turned red, made eye contact with the first car to make sure they don’t jump it and leg it across the firstt lane before the first uphill car gets over the yellow box and into our space.

       It makes for an eventful start to the day.

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     • brooksby wrote:

       One junction that it always amazes me doesn’t have a pedestrian crossing is the top of Colston Street in Bristol – streetview here: https://goo.gl/maps/HjWVyCrHknGvFi7W7

       So pedestrians coming along Upper Maudlin Street and wanting to cross the end of Colston Street and carry on their way have to just watch the traffic, pray to the gods that the lights don’t change behind them, and dash across.

       — brooksby

       The dotted lines for crossing the road are in the wrong place too – it’s easier to go down the hill a bit and cross perpendicular to the road. At least there’s a zebra further down, but just slightly too far to use when you’re at the top.

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   • I remember a TV programme on

     I remember a TV programme on local news (West Midlands) about 10+ years ago when an offical from the Highways dept was invited down to explain why they could not place in a crossing over a dual two lane road which seperated a school with a housing estate. The offical stated it was safe and did not meet requirements for a signalised crossing, then when challenged if he would cross the road his reply was he could not as it was too dangerous (based on his dept risk assessment). So as a grown man he was unwilling to cross the road as it was unsafe but expected 11-15 year olds to cross unsupervised and without any safe means of doing so, it summed up much of what was wrong with our highway departments.

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     • https://therantyhighwayman
       https://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.com/2021/12/permission-to-cross.html?m=1

       There’s your justification.

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       • Moist von Lipwig wrote:

         https://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.com/2021/12/permission-to-cross.html?m=1 There’s your justification.

         — Moist von Lipwig

         this is a gem

         “If we are considering a dual carriageway, then we would have to look at each carriageway separately, although that’s going to make things even more complicated. “
         Leading to a conclusion that a crossing might be provided for one carriageway, but not the other?

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     • That’s council Highways

       That’s council Highways officials for you! I remember the man charged with designing cycle paths for Lancashire County Council did not ride a bike. We got howlers such as one underneath a hawthorn hedge, one with lamp posts in the centre of it, with white diamonds helpfully painted around each one, One which lasted for six feet, to the one which takes cyclists in the complete opposite direction to the way they were hoping to travel, before stopping abruptly. Most other cycle paths are just a painted bike on a pavement.

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4. How do they read that watch?
   How do they read that watch?

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   • Oldfatgit wrote:

     How do they read that watch?

     — Oldfatgit

     It’s set to Australian time.

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   • Oldfatgit wrote:

     How do they read that watch?

     — Oldfatgit

     They’ve shown the Australian model

     (apologies to mdavidford – I didn’t see your earlier post)

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5. On “I shouldn’t laugh…but..

   On “I shouldn’t laugh…but…” – that looks like the Pill Path along the side of the River Avon at any point up to a week or so after we’ve had heavy rain.  The water all comes down out of the woods, over the path, and into the river…  Not really fun, but a great advert for having mudguards on your bike 😉

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   • brooksby wrote:

     On “I shouldn’t laugh…but…” – that looks like the Pill Path along the side of the River Avon at any point up to a week or so after we’ve had heavy rain.  The water all comes down out of the woods, over the path, and into the river…  Not really fun, but a great advert for having mudguards on your bike 😉

     — brooksby

     I’ll see your Pill Path and raise you a Conham River Park Path:

     https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4462876,-2.535705,17z

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6. Traffic lights:
   Traffic lights:
   There are several around here on A roads that don’t pick up cyclists.
   One isn’t too bad as it’s on a main road through the town, and it’s a matter of encouraging drivers to pull up tight behind you / change places so they trip the sensors. If there’s no traffic, you can dismount and push across.
   There’s another set (on the A71 outside of Edinburgh) where the right turn filter from the A71 isn’t tripped, and joining the A71 from the minor road also ignores cyclists.
   There’s been 12 of us there waiting one evening, and they still wouldn’t trip. That was a mass dismount and push across the road.

   You don’t *have* to cycle through the red; it’s not an offence to become a pedestrian and push the bike though, and remount at a safe distance.

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   • Oldfatgit wrote:

     Traffic lights:
     There are several around here on A roads that don’t pick up cyclists.
     One isn’t too bad as it’s on a main road through the town, and it’s a matter of encouraging drivers to pull up tight behind you / change places so they trip the sensors. If there’s no traffic, you can dismount and push across.
     There’s another set (on the A71 outside of Edinburgh) where the right turn filter from the A71 isn’t tripped, and joining the A71 from the minor road also ignores cyclists.
     There’s been 12 of us there waiting one evening, and they still wouldn’t trip. That was a mass dismount and push across the road.

     You don’t *have* to cycle through the red; it’s not an offence to become a pedestrian and push the bike though, and remount at a safe distance.

     — Oldfatgit

     True I don’t *have* to cycle through but when I’m going at 4:30am because I have a morning flight to catch I’m buggered if I’m taking a slower route because I’m a designated non-entity.

     I’m not averse to getting off the bike and pushing it when appropriate but not in those circumstances.

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   • There’s a light round my way

     There’s a light round my way that doesn’t always detect cars. You have to move forward into the ASL, otherwise you’ll be sitting there for ages. I’ve complained about it to the council but nothing has been done.

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   • In my US state (Illinois) the

     In my US state (Illinois) the law was changed a decade ago to explicitely allow it. Several other US states have similar laws.

     https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/fulltext.asp?Name=097-0627

         In municipalities with less than 2,000,000
         inhabitants, after stopping as required by paragraph 1 or 2
         of this subsection, the driver of a motorcycle or bicycle,
         facing a steady red signal which fails to change to a green
         signal within a reasonable period of time because of a
         signal malfunction or because the signal has failed to
         detect the arrival of the motorcycle or bicycle due to the
         vehicle’s size or weight, shall have the right to proceed,
         after yielding the right of way to oncoming traffic facing
         a green signal, subject to the rules applicable after
         making a stop at a stop sign as required by Section 11-1204
         of this Code.

     The law has been interpreted to mean that a “reasonable period of time” is two minutes, but there are a few lights I go through regularly that I know will never change for me, and if there are no cars there to make the light change I will stop, then go as soon as the first safe opportunity appears.

     Oh, and the two million inhabitants thing is just to keep Chicago happy. I think they passed their own local law.

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   • Oldfatgit wrote:

     Traffic lights: There are several around here on A roads that don’t pick up cyclists. One isn’t too bad as it’s on a main road through the town, and it’s a matter of encouraging drivers to pull up tight behind you / change places so they trip the sensors. If there’s no traffic, you can dismount and push across. There’s another set (on the A71 outside of Edinburgh) where the right turn filter from the A71 isn’t tripped, and joining the A71 from the minor road also ignores cyclists. There’s been 12 of us there waiting one evening, and they still wouldn’t trip. That was a mass dismount and push across the road. You don’t *have* to cycle through the red; it’s not an offence to become a pedestrian and push the bike though, and remount at a safe distance.

     — Oldfatgit

     I’ll accept this when you can provide evidence of drivers pushing their cars through lights which are broken and stuck on red.

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7. Regarding being “forced” to

   Regarding being “forced” to RLJ – our U.S. friends refer to a “Dead Red Law” for that eventuality: https://cdllife.com/2014/16-states-pass-dead-red-laws-allowing-cyclists-run-red-lights/

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8. Re Alex Chalk MP. Broke his

   Re Alex Chalk MP. Broke his arm eh? I bet he wasn’t wearing a helmet. 

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9. “Have you ever been forced to

   “Have you ever been forced to go through a red light?”

   Traffic lights with sensors that don’t detect cyclists exist in many places. Remember, we don’t matter. At all.
    

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   • Yep, quite a few of those

     Yep, quite a few of those near me. 

     Traffic lights can’t see us, but every DM reading talk radio listening angry drivist on the face of the planet can see you if you make a break for it during a suitable gap in traffic. 

     Fairs fair I suppose, it’s not like one of them would ever show any sign of impatience if they got held up for a second or few whilst driving is it? 

      

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   • There are loads areound where

     There are loads around where I live, I waited at one set for five minutes without a single vehicle anywhere, before I got sick and went through. Now when I ride there I just cross the road at the crossing and proceed as normal. The trigger lines in the road can’t sense a bike. Because we don’t matter.

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10. So I was intrigued by the

    So I was intrigued by the Leith Walk “Cycle facility of the week” entry (or possibly month).  Time for an after-work cycle. I’d say that a) it’s obviously not “open” but… it’s every bit as good as Edinburgh council are capable of.  They made a real effort – no excuses about not having the cash.  They’ve clearly spent extra to ensure that it’s not convenient.  I’m not sure about the safety – on the straight bits it’s safer than the road… oh – but it isn’t as roads don’t have sudden changes of angle like this. Or street furniture in the middle.  And unless they’re a destination they tend to connect to other roads at each end too.

    I suspect bits might also not be good for the partially sighted either.  Hopefully we don’t have a situation like the tramlines and cyclists where it took a couple of years of being sued and a death before the council admitted they’d build something unsafe. (Which they had been told before…)

    Anyway – apologies for crap camera and being there in the dark but here are a few highlights.

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    • This is “on the way in”.  You

      This is “on the way in”.  You can turn off Broughton street to the right (going east around Picardy Place towards the theatre) and there’s a little segregated cycle path!  Great! Oh, wait – it’s turned into a pedestrian crossing waiting area?  And then beyond that there’s just a tall kerb and cars parked immediately next to it?  Great for trials riders though, who’ll just stop, flip 90 degrees to the right, cross the road, ride around the middle, cross back again…

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      • The bit which is just

        The bit which is just becoming famous.  Three lights in a row, 2 bang in the middle of the path:

         

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        • Nice little chicane section

          Nice little chicane section here, combined with a pedestrian crossing point – to be fair the pedestrians are given an extra metre to go too.  Keeps them on their toes!  Width is about a metre. Someone must have copied it from some Bikeability balance course illustration:

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