Updated: Health secretary Matt Hancock has said this evening that the government is not looking at stopping people from exercising outdoors – having suggested this morning that it would do just that due to people ignoring government advice on staying at home and social distancing.
Delivering the government’s daily update on the coronavirus pandemic, Hancock said that there were no plans to toughen up restrictions on people exercising outdoors, reports the Guardian.
“What we are doing is being absolutely clear that the current rules must be followed,” he explained.
Dr Jenny Harries, the government’s deputy chief medical officer, added: “It is not just what you are doing but how you are doing it.
“If you are sitting on a park bench, people tend to accumulate – it is very difficult to prevent that.
“Having rules where we are getting all of the benefits and minimising the risks and harms is an important approach to maintain.
“We have set those rules, we are enforcing against those rules and we will reiterate those rules, because that is the best way to be able to bend the curve down and stop the spread of the virus.”
Earlier today, Hancock had suggested that people’s right to exercise outdoors during the coronavirus pandemic may be ended if government rules are not followed, saying it was “quite unbelievable” how some people ignored official guidelines yesterday to sunbathe in parks.
Under current regulations aimed at containing the spread of COVID-19, people are allowed to leave their homes to undertake one form of exercise, including cycling, each day, provided it is done alone or with household members.
> Daily exercise rules: current cycling dos and don’ts
Other exceptions to the government guidelines to stay at home are to undertake essential shopping trips, to care for a vulnerable person, or to travel to and from work if it cannot be undertaken from home.
Speaking to the BBC’s Andrew Marr this morning, Hancock said: “If you don’t want us to take the step to ban exercise of all forms outside the home, you have got to follow the rules.
“Let’s not have a minority spoiling it for everybody.”
He acknowledged the “really important” physical and mental health benefits of exercise and said that the government did not want to take away the opportunity for people to undertake it outside the home.
However, he added: “If the result of that is that too many people go out and flout the other rules because they say, ‘Well, I can exercise then it’s fine for me to do other things’ then I’m afraid we will have to take action.
It was a point he also made on Sky News today in an interview with Sophy Ridge.
He said: “To the very small minority who are continuing to flout the guidance – you are putting others’ lives at risk and you are putting yourself in harm’s way.”
Hancock added: “We are crystal clear in the guidance what people should or shouldn’t do,” he stressed.
“This is not a request, it’s a requirement. People need to follow it.”
On Friday, Prime Minister Boris Johnson urged people to avoid the temptation to ignore lockdown restrictions ahead of what is proving to be a warm and sunny weekend across much of the country.
He said today: “Thank you to everyone who is saving lives by staying at home this weekend.
“I know it’s tough, but if we all work together and follow the guidance, we will beat coronavirus.”
> How much distance should you leave to the cyclist ahead in a time of pandemic?
Pictures emerged in the press and on social media yesterday of police speaking to people who were sunbathing in locations including South London’s Greenwich Park and Brockwell Park.
The latter, located close to Herne Hill Velodrome, confirmed yesterday that it will now be closed to the public after an estimated 3,000 people visited the park yesterday.
Meanwhile, police in East London broke up an 18th birthday party attended by 25 people, while in Brighton, two people have been summonsed for taking part in a barbecue on the beach.
However, there has been criticism of some of the images used by certain newspapers in an attempt to highlighting apparent disregard for social distancing rules.
Yesterday, we reported on how an image used by Mail Online of cyclists apparently riding in a group in London’s Regent’s Park was misleading – and perhaps deliberately so.
> Mail accused of distorting truth in “MAMIL madness” Regents Park cyclists story
Taken from the front using a telephoto lens, foreshortening meant that the riders in the picture appeared much closer together than they actually were.
Regent’s Park Cyclists, which represents riders who use the park, retweeted a picture of the image together including the caption that Mail Online had given it.
It took them a week to get that photograph. https://t.co/wLYI5hBCqm
— RegentsParkCyclists (@RPcyclists) April 4, 2020
That same picture was published online by The Sun, for example, with its caption claiming that it showed the cyclists “huddled together.”
However, Regents Park Cyclists said yesterday that “the vast, vast majority” of cyclists had been “extremely respectful” of requests by the Royal Parks and the police to ride responsibly and follow social distancing guidelines.
> Updated: How to cycle responsibly in a time of pandemic
Please note: This story was originally published at 11:57am on Sunday 5 April 2020 and udated at 9:30pm the same day to reflect Matt Hancock’s comments in the evening press conference.
57 thoughts on “Updated: Health secretary says no plans to ban cycling and other exercise – after suggesting earlier that it might be”
Banning exercise? Not a
Banning exercise? Not a problem.
Instead of buying a bag of apples or bunch of bananas once/twice a week, make an essential grocery trip by bike each day to buy just an apple or a banana. If you’re a weight weenie then select a lightwieght fruit such as a grape.
Exercise is fine. Riding up
Exercise is fine. Riding up Box Hill, at whatever pace constitutes exercise for you, is fine. Sitting around in a crowd at the viewpoint at the top is not exercise and is not fine. So, to whoever it was who was being moved on by the police this morning, may your spokes snap and your tyres burst, especially the halfwit wandering all over the road after being moved on.
Quote:
It sounds like the closure is only for Sunday, and it’ll reopen on Monday.
Matt, why not enforce the
Matt, why not enforce the “guidance” that is already in place?
Crystal Clarity, as if…
and yet …
and yet …
The Scottish Cheif Medical Officer – the one that been giving us Scotts all the stay-at-home advice – takes her family to their holiday home.
Guess stay at home only applies to some then
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52171694
The police have now given her
The police have now given her a caution therefore I wonder when they’ll be popping in to see Charles about him popping off to his holiday home paricularly as he was a carrier spreading the virus across the country.
A caution? So, not a spot
A caution? So, not a spot fine and shaming on twitter?
She’s gone now, knew she
She’s gone now, knew she would be by this morning.
So because people are doing X
So because people are doing X we should ban Y.
X = prostrate, vegetating in the sun
Y = taking exercise.
In neither case are we even talking about social distance, which is supposed to be the issue in question.
How big is Brockwell Park?
How big is Brockwell Park? How widely spaced were the sunbathers?
From the video clips I’ve
These all seem to be very widely spaced.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-some-britons-defy-lockdown-again-and-one-police-officer-had-clearly-had-enough-11969004
Since food shopping is a
Since food shopping is a reasonable excuse under sections 6 of the regs and nowhere does it mention how to get to any shop, I will be cycling to all shops if any further ban is introduced.
hirsute wrote:
I do all my shopping by bike anyway. I have a supermarket nearby but may choose to use the other one which is much further away…
It isn’t a few Londoners
It isn’t a few Londoners sunning themselves in parks, or two pairs of cyclists overtaking just as a news photographer takes a shot, that will cause an outdoor exercise ban. Some of those people may be acting slightly inadvisably, but that won’t be the real reason. It will be because of people (rightly) criticizing the government for a decade of underinvestment in the NHS, for ignoring warnings about PPE shortages raised by Exercise Cygnus in 2016, for pissing away chances to bulk-buy ventilators with the EU, and for thinking they knew better about the need for testing kits, even while other countries proving otherwise. Those things will cause the government to need to divert blame onto some kids rollerblading, or MAMILs, or whoever the press chooses to demonize on their front pages next. That and an accelerating death rate, despite most people who die now having been infected weeks ago, back when the government was still allowing people to pour off planes at Heathrow without so much as checking their temperature, or permitting the Cheltenham Festival to carry on. Of course, we’ll still be able to go to crowded supermarkets (because again there isn’t the infrastructure and central planning for home delivery to reach more than a fraction of the population) which is a much higher risk of catching this virus than doing a ten-mile loop on a bicycle without stopping.
Not that the Tories are solely responsible, it is a pandemic after all, and Trump is making everyone else look good, but an emergency doesn’t change the fact that they’re a bunch of liars, and hence prone to making poor decisions to cover up their previous poor decisions.
The government have done a
The government have done a great job of deflecting and turning the population into the Orwellian Thought Police, ready to hate each other and grass on each other at any opportunity. For example, my local police force have had to issue a request that people don’t call 999 if their neighbour has left the house twice in one day.
Meanwhile another nurse dies today through complete lack of PPE but people are more upset about people sitting in a park than they are holding the government to account.
“thinking they knew better”
“thinking they knew better”
Which sums up Johnson, Cummings, Francois and the rest of the Brexit nutjobs.
Off topic HarrogateSpa, how’s
Off topic HarrogateSpa, how’s the stray doing after the recent dry spell?
Many sunbathers?
Back on topic…
Why are we doing this, again?
Why are we doing this, again? In what election were Bill Gates and Anthony Fauci elected as Co Presidents of the World? Do you recall voting in that one?
https://medium.com/@antonymueller/fooled-9de24aa66227
“There has been no noticeable rise of the [national] death rate[s]. A look at the overall death statistics shows flat lines with fluctuations within its natural range. Even in Italy, there has not yet been a higher number of deaths than usual in the past couple of months. In absolute numbers, the death count is actually slightly down because of the seasonal factor that wintertime is over.”
https://www.euromomo.eu/
rh2059 wrote:
I guess we won’t get the full facts until all this is over, and maybe not even then. I read the piece by Antony Mueller and while I agree there is a lot of media hype and panic over this virus, the fact remains that hopital intensive care units are currently overwhelmed by people needing ventilators, and seemingly healthy people in the prime of their lives are dying from it. This is not usual, not even for the flu. You could say this is anecdotal and it doesn’t trouble the death statistics, but that’s the problem with statistics – you can use them to prove anything. I expect someone somewhere has produced a set of figures to prove exactly the opposite to Mueller. Who knows who’s right?
alchemilla wrote:
But that is not true. With the exception of London where people continue to use public transport and apparently flout the lockdown (though I don’t see much photographic evidence of that).
Take Buckinghamshire for example, 268 cases. Most of those will not be in hospital, let alone in ICU on ventilators. Buckinghamshire is served by 3 very large hospitals which can cater for several thousand patients. To say they are currently overwhelmed is just not true.
bikeman01 wrote:
Most of them will have at least been in hospital at some point, given that it’s mainly only people who’ve ended up in hospital that have been getting tested.
We won’t know fully until
We won’t know fully until next year, anually around 500,000 people die in the UK each year. Whilst this is lots of deaths together, and I don’t mean this to sound callous, but so far it is just under 5,000. Around 8,000 people die of flu each years, that’s taking in account that we have a flu vaccine. A friend of mine works in a hospital, he’s known 50 people to die in one day of flu, which never gets reported. This seems worse because there is no vaccine, and it is a world problem.
biker phil wrote:
Well the BMJ would dispute your anecdote.
https://www.bmj.com/content/361/bmj.k2795/rr-6
If C19 was only as bad as flu and had no real impact on overall deaths, do you really think that all the world’s governments would shut everything down? It doesn’t seem worse, it is far wrose, because it’s novel, so no immunity, no vaccine and no cure.
Bear in mind C19 deaths are on top of normal deaths and hopefully because we took action, the UK C19 death toll will only be in tens of thousands. If we hadn’t then quarter to half a milion deaths were predicted. Again on top of the usual deaths.
imajez wrote:
Actually, that’s not quite right.
What’s being reported are ‘deaths with Covid-19’ – i.e. people who have died soon after testing positive for the disease. That will include some cases where it was not a contributing factor in the death, and some where it may only have made a death that was going to happen soon anyway come a little sooner.
Also, if you catch Covid-19, your chances of dying with it seem to be roughly similar to the chances that you would have died in the next year without catching it, given your age and health background. So there will be significant overlap between people dying with the virus and deaths that would have happened later in the year anyway.
In a broader sense, though, you’re right – it will also include a lot of additional deaths on top of what we would otherwise have had.
The water is further muddied by the fact that deaths from seasonal diseases such as flu have been particularly low this year, so looking at aggregate deaths and comparing it to other years isn’t particularly useful, because because the low background rate tends to hide the impact of this particular virus.
It’s a bit like saying 71%
It’s a bit like saying 71% men over 75 die FROM prostrate cancer, when the truth is 71% of men over 75 die WITH prostrate cancer.
** If threading worked on this forum it would be clear what this comment referred to. But it doesn’t, so it isn’t .**
“Hancock added: “We are
“Hancock added: “We are crystal clear in the guidance what people should or shouldn’t do,” he stressed.”
That would be the same Hancock, Secretary of State for Health, who ignored the WHO guidance about quarantining himself for 14 days so that he could open a covid 19 hospital?
Is there a single competent person in this ultra-shambles of a government?
“Let’s not let the minority
“Let’s not let the minority spoil it for everybody” – but the conservative party has had a good go at it over the last few years, hasn’t it?
Now is not the time to moan
Now is not the time to moan at the government, all governments around the world have been guilty of one thing or another over the years. They are all struggling to overcome this virus now.
Do you think Labour or Lib Dem would be any better? They are all in it for themselves, whichever party is in power. What about Keir Starmer? Do you think he would do any better? Remember him helping Jimmy Saville evade justice?
Yes, Keir Starmer would be
Yes, Keir Starmer would be much better. He’s honest, and interested in other people – he doesn’t just want to be PM for the sake of his ego. That’s a good start.
HarrogateSpa wrote:
But he was head of the CPS when they decided that there wasn’t enough evidence to prosecute Jimmy Saville, and unlike all the made up smears of Corbyn, that is true.
“Remember him helping Jimmy
“Remember him helping Jimmy Saville evade justice”, don’t talk bullshit. It’s bad enough the far right trolls peddling this crap on social media without idiots believing it and spreading it further afield.
The CPS have to dismiss thousands of requests for prosecution every year, only a retarded conspiracy whackjob with no knowledge of law nor historical context would look retrospectively and cherrypick information from that case to suit their own deluded agenda.
What we do know about Saville is that he was a very good friend of Thatcher and as a result was for decades protected by the tory establishment and the police, making prosecution extremely difficult.
Also, Thatcher, the tory establishment and the Arch Bishop of Cantebury gave protection to pedophile priests in the CoE helping them evade prosecution. Then we also have the tory minister under Thatcher who prowled children’s homes looking for prey.
When it comes to pedophilia and politics there’s one person and one party that keep cropping up and they both begin with T.
billymansell wrote:
Hoisted by his own petarded conspiracies.
I’ve seen lots of rumours of
I’ve seen lots of rumours of groups of people exercising, but with the exception of the misleading DM picture, I’ve seen no evidence. If they ban exercising it will be just to pretend that it’s all our fault and the government have done everything they can, when really it’s their fault and their utter failure to take timely action.
Yes and given Johnson &
Yes and given Johnson & Hancock both ignored their own rules and caught the virus, it’s hard to take lessons from them.
I wish Johnson a speedy recovery, as I would any person. It’s probably completely inappropriate to admit this, but it is sweet relief not to have to listen to lies and bluster from that bullshitter, even if it only lasts a few days.
HarrogateSpa wrote:
No, it isn’t completely inappropriate, it is bliss. Not to have to hear that liar, cheat, hypocrite and coward tell the rest of us how to behave really is bliss. The only reason they got the queen to make an announcement is because people might listen to her, but nobody in their right minds believes anything anyone in this ultra-shambles of a government says.
“To the very small minority
“To the very small minority who are continuing to flout the guidance”
As far as I can tell, locally and nationall virtually everyone is behaving properly so why punish the whole population rob all of us of the ability to go outside for a walk or cycle ride?
It’s disproportionate, unjustified and won’t address the problem.
If there was a very small minority of youths stealing from stores they wouldn’t ban all under 18s from ever entering any shops.
If there was a very small minority of people speeding and putting lives at risk they wouldn’t ban all cars from the roads. We are very sure of this because a significant number of drivers already race around with f**k all consideration for others, and it has got worse during the lockdown.
Anger and resentment doesn’t quite do justice to my reaction to this threat.
I’m inclined to agree with handlebarcam and billymansell, this government has shown a lack of leadership and co-ordination in this crisis. They want to blame ‘the little people’. It’s worth listening to the video that Rupert Read published during the week. This is a 47 second clip, the full 7 minutes is linked in the tweet and IMO worth a watch/listen:
Went out this afternoon. All
Went out this afternoon. All seemed good except for the group of men trying to take advantage of favourable winds to set new PRs on the Hillingdon cycle circuit. Wasn’t in the mood to get into a fight with a bunch of knuckle draggers so left them to it. Here’s hoping they all get punctures on the way home.
Still pillocks on my strava
Still pillocks on my strava feed going out for 100 milers …
Pillocks?
Pillocks?
Why not unfollow if it offends you so much?
I bet you drive an Audi
I bet you drive an Audi
Why?
Why?
(and no I don’t, so you can stick your stereotype up your fat arse)
You just seem to be rather
You just seem to be rather self-centred, opposed to any sort of collective sacrifice and ignorant about the implications of your actions.
How am I self-centred?
How am I self-centred?
Do you know what sacrifices I make? No.
Do you know what efforts I make in the current circumstances? No.
Do you know anything about me apart from comments on road.cc? No.
So the one who is more ignorant and arrogantly slating other people with no good reason is YOU. Best that you take care not to fall off that high horse of yours.
Simon, there are some big
Simon, there are some big numbers on Strava this weekend, a few I follow over 100km, I did 60 today. Nothing unusual in that. If you are riding alone on a road there should be no harm. However Cyclists are going to partly blamed for a more severe lockdown. Parks in London should be closed to stop people going there. We are all going to be stuck inside if Londoners can’t control themselves, they are the hot-spot after all. I can’t blame riders for trying to get one last ride in before the inevitable.
Maybe there are significant
Maybe there are significant numbers of Londoners and people in other busy urban locations won’t behave but the majority will be on foot. It makes no sense that an experienced cyclist doing a long ride in Yorkshire or Wales (and hardly sees a soul in the process) attract such ire. Too much hypocritical and self-righteous slagging for my liking.
The only reason cyclists as a group will be blamed will be because it suits the MSM and the government to scapegoat people who like to cycle. That is certainly not new.
…and probably not coming
…and probably not coming within 2m of a single soul.
I rode through central London on Thursday. It was dead. I’d have got closer to more people going for a walk round the block.
my assumption is the
my assumption is the decisions already been taken,those Sunday talk show things are always about gently nudging policy decisions out into the public realm and it will be put in place before the Easter weekend,which theyve consistently said they expect to be the peak of the virus.
It will probably be framed as a we are all in this together thing, but is a means to curb the non exercising public deciding to pop out for a family drive to the coast as theyve seen their neighbour happily jumping on a bike or going for a run every day,so whats the harm for them going for a small drive, as Im assuming the schools are now properly shutdown for the next two weeks,and plenty of people who were wfh,had booked leave to coincide with Easter, so lots of people with nothing to do and the weather is supposed to be nice and warm, for a change.
You don’t know how good you
You don’t know how good you have it in the UK! I’m a brit living in Italy and here all forms of exercise have been banned. We can only leave the home to go shopping or walk the dog. Today in Tuscany where live, I have heard that it will now be mandatory that to leave the home to go shopping we will have to wear a mask. All the residents will be issued a pack of 3 masks. I suppose next, they will be telling us to wear hazmat suits.
The experts (in the UK) think it would be a bad idea banning physical exercise outside. See Expert Reactions on http://www.sciencemediacentre.org (UK site).
“banning people from exercising out of doors would have a negligible impact on the epidemiology of this disease but a marked impact on peoples’ mental health and wellbeing.” – Prof John Edmunds, Professor in the Centre for the Mathematical Modelling of Infectious Diseases, London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine
““In many parts of the country, and most people, are following the guidance. There needs to be better enforcement rather than more restrictions. It is perfectly possible to exercise once a day and pose no risk to others or yourself.” – Prof Keith Neal, Emeritus Professor of the Epidemiology of Infectious Diseases, University of Nottingham
Which is all well and good
Which is all well and good,but the ones ultimately making the decision will be guided by the politics of the decision, and the politics follows the media narrative,not the science, which is overwhelmingly they arent doing enough to curb this minority ‘breaking the rules’. Plus they need to be sure the rules will be followed over the Easter weekend and what’s the easiest way to ensure everyone follows the rules on social distancing that weekend, just keep calm and carry on or…?
Is this all media driven; “oh
Is this all media driven; “oh look Govt, people aren’t following your rules”. Govt responds by saying they might tighten things up. Police appear a bit ‘heavy-handed’ in enforcing the rules and the media are all “we’re turning into a police state” so they back off. BBC this morning, “wouldn’t it be unfair to to force people to stay in their tiny flats?” They’re all at it; not just the Daily Mail.
Ref cycling through parks; cutting down a section of bike path 2 weeks ago I worked out that it was a bit ‘congested’ (ie failed social distancing rules) with walkers, cyclists and joggers so have avoided parks and bike paths since. Doesn’t matter as the busy roads that the paths help you avoid are now quiet. Leave the paths and parks to families.
Really relieved to hear this.
Really relieved to hear this. A short ride after work has been a great chance to reduce the stress of the current situation. Have still seen a fair few people cycling in groups (not families etc) which is disappointing. I have a decent zwift setup but it’s really not the same.
Stay safe everyone and let’s hope we can beat this thing soon.
Speeding drivers now being
Speeding drivers now being let off by overstretched police
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/speeding-drivers-let-off-by-overstretched-police-0zg0xrtk5
The adage ‘speed kills’ has been replaced with ‘cyclists – when they’re not spreading covid-19 to everyone they pass they’re falling off and taking up our NHS beds’.
Meanwhile, PC Paul Brown was recently let off for driving at 101mph in a 30, running 4 red lights, drove at 122mph on the A11, went round a roundabout the wrong side – 16 seperate charges.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7993475/Former-Det-Chief-Superintendent-Kevin-Hurley-let-policeman-speeding-101mph.html
bikeman01 wrote:
JHC, that really is utterly appalling. Borrowed an unmarked police car for private business, drove extremely dangerously just because he could, the flimsiest of defences, but he gets off. Completely irresponsible and no way should someone with such a cavalier attitude to public safety be a cop, and he deserves to be in prison, which his colleagues and the former Detective Cheif Superintendent seem to agree with. As he points out, hardly calculated to improve confidence in the police.
He got lagged by a colleague
He got lagged by a colleague that checked the cars data and dashcam recordings; imagine what cops have got away with before such recording technology was in place; he may have gotten off the traffic charges but police have internal procedures and I can see a resignation in PC Brown’s near future.
Kier Starmer oozes integrity
Kier Starmer oozes integrity and a desire to do the right thing. Not easy to accomplish in politics, as Tony Blair found – G W Bush wants to kick some Middle Eastern ass – do you side-step/ stay out of it, join in, or publicly criticise and resist? Each choice will have consequences and will be judged, with hindsight dialled-up to 11. Starmer can’t get to no 10 quick enough in my view, but he’s got the same Hill to climb as Blair and Co did to get the Labour Party to return from “away with the fairies” to electoral credibility and government material.
I wouldn’t get too conspiratorial about the government’s response to COVID, viz 10 years of austerity. We all hope various lessons have been learned and that maybe some things won’t eventually bungee back to how they were, according to our own preferences.
Boris and co had already announced reversals of a lot of the past austerity – unfortunately including a lot of road building that with luck we’re going to find isn’t needed and of course zippo for cycling.
Get well soon Boris, btw.
One of the hindsight questions for me is whether we should have really acted a lot sooner than 23 March. It’s human nature to deny, to bargain, rather than fully accept. As a political leader, you have to grapple with the public mood and the possibility that you’re seen as over-reacting. I don’t normally go in for the close the borders stuff, but that’s what comes out of this for me – it was evident in late February that this thing was quite deadly, highly contagious and kept itself concealed for several days. I hope we get an effective vaccine very soon so we can avoid “Welcome (back) to Britain – this coach will take you to the quarantine centre.”
thank goodness for cycling’s many health benefits that are keeping the ban wolf from the door. You’re not going to pass it on solo on a country road and my sense, based on very little science is that fresh air is a good place to be. Are CUK and BC pushing back against the iffy peloton photos?
We’ve made ourselves in to curtain-twitching Facebook posting tell-tales, where this has happened, with very little help from the government. But We’ve been raging on here for yonks against our 4 wheeled bete noirs – do any of them listen? Has the Audi owner’s club reached out the hand of friendship to CUK or BC because they recognise themselves on a CPotD post?
Whatever happens in terms of emergencies nearly always impinges on society’s most vulnerable the most. True, a few people don’t seem to get it, don’t think it includes them and their actions are going to mean the lockdown is longer, possibly stricter, the risk of spread increased, and the hard work of so many in hospitals undermined.
Funny how different people
Funny how different people perceive others. To me, he oozes the typical high-flying politician slime.
I’ve never really thought of
I’ve never really thought of Tony Blair as having had good intentions. Then again, I firmly believe he should be tried for war crimes due to his falsifying information to get us into the Iraq war and all the people who died because of that.