Transgender cyclist Emily Bridges has launched a scathing attack on British Cycling, calling it a “failed organisation” and raised concerns that trans women have been “banned” from participating on the same day that the governing body announced a new transgender policy that will see the introduction of a new ‘Open’ category for all transgender and non-binary individuals in competitive events.
British Cycling announced today morning the introduction of a new ‘Open’ category alongside the women’s category. This means that the current men’s category will be consolidated into the Open category, with the female category only open to “those whose sex was assigned female at birth and transgender men who are yet to begin hormone therapy”. This will only apply in competition.
However, Bridges released a prior statement in response on her Instagram, saying she was “done with this whole conversation being on their terms, and being controlled by them.”
> Participating in cycling as a transgender woman: a cyclist’s experience
“British Cycling has just banned us from racing,” read her post. “They have no authority to control this conversation anymore. Does it surprise me that the same organisation funded directly by a state that ships vulnerable refugees to Rwanda, violently clamps down on any political dissent that they disapprove of, or starves their people? No, of course, it doesn’t.”
“The same organisation with actively homophobic coaches, who encouraged eating disorders and did nothing about any bullying between its riders. The same organisation where elite riders influence their policy when it doesn’t fit their entitled and narrow worldview, with no ability for nuance or any desire to question the view that they’ve been told since birth.”
She continued: “British Cycling is a failed organisation, the racing scene is dying under your watch and all you do is take money from petrochemical companies and engage in culture wars. You don’t care about making sport more diverse, you want to make yourself look better and you’re even failing at that. Cycling is still one of the whitest, straightest sports out there, and you couldn’t care less.”
> British Cycling + Shell discussed on the road.cc Podcast
“This is a violent act,” she said. “British Cycling are supporting this, they are furthering a genocide against us. Bans from sport is how it starts, look at what is going on in America. It starts with sports bans, then youth and general healthcare and then bans from public life through bathroom bans. Just look at the situation, and who is on your side. When literal Nazis, conspiracy theorists and those who want our eradication are on your side, surely that should give you pause?”
> Transgender cyclist Emily Bridges breaks silence to question “alleged ineligibility”
Bridges had been cleared by British Cycling for racing at the National Omnium Championships last year in April her testosterone levels were sufficiently, but then suddenly the organisation made a U-turn on its decision and suspended its transgender policy with immediate effect. It said that the system was “unfair on all women riders and poses a challenge to the integrity of racing,” and thus a nine-month review was initiated.
Today, the national governing body has announced two new policies — one for competitive activity and another for non-competitive activity. For the latter, British Cycling says that it will not discriminate based on gender and allow riders to participate in the category they identify as.
However for competitive activity, it introduced the new Open category, alongside the Male and Female categories. All transgender and non-binary individuals (except those whose sex was assigned female at birth) can now only compete only in the Open category.
Existing Race Licences held by transgender women will continue to be valid until the new policy comes into force. British Cycling said that it is working closely with these individuals to support their continued participation in events following the change in policy.
British Cycling apologised to all transgender and non-binary for the “uncertainty and upset” that they felt due to its actions.
“Our aim in creating our policies has always been to advance and promote equality, diversity and inclusion, while at the same time prioritising fairness of competition. This aim has not changed: it has been central to our review and we remain committed to this vital work,” said British Cycling.
British Cycling CEO, Jon Dutton, said: “Our new policies are the product of a robust nine-month review process which we know will have a very real-world impact for our community both now and in the future. We understand that this will be particularly difficult for many of our trans and non-binary riders, and our commitment to them today is twofold.
“First, we will continue to assess our policy annually and more frequently as the medical science develops, and will continue to invite those impacted to be an integral part of those conversations. Second, we will also continue to ensure that our non-competitive activities provide a positive and welcoming environment, where everyone can feel like they belong and are respected in our community, and take action to eradicate discrimination from the sport.
“I am confident that we have developed policies that both safeguard the fairness of cyclesport competition, whilst ensuring all riders have opportunities to participate.”
British Cycling also asserted that a full medical science review, followed by an assessment of the practical changes and support needed to ensure the policy’s successful implementation was conducted, alongside a targeted consultation consisiting of 14 focus groups.
> “Trans rights are human rights,” says Rapha – “all athletes should have the opportunity to race”
However, Bridges argued that while she agreed that there needs to be a nuanced policy discussion and continue to conduct research, it hadn’t happened. “Research isn’t being viewed critically, or any discussion about the relevance of the data to specific sports. Any discussion is inherently political and driven by bad faith actors, and the whole discussion is framed by the media who are driven through engagement by hate and funding from far-right ultra capitalists,” she said.
Bridges also added that for the last two years, she has “given up her body for science”, and that “new, actual and relevant” data will be coming out soon.
There is no science that supports any decision to ban. BC know that, as do others including World Governing bodies. These decisions ARE purely motivated by politics, purely and simply.
— Sandy ??❤ ?️? Ally She/Her (@sullivansa1) May 26, 2023
In April last year, Emily Bridges’ mother commented on British Cycling’s treatment of her daughter, simply saying “dumped by email”, after the national governing body’s decision to suspend its transgender policy.
UK’s largest network of LGBTQIA+ cyclists PRiDE OUT had also accused the body of “bending to political pressure and cowing to the transphobic gender-critical movement”.
Bridges finished her Instagram post: “It terrifies me to exist at the moment, I have friends getting hate crimed all the time, and my reality is that I can’t look ahead to the future or make plans because I don’t know if I’ll be allowed to live that long.
“Do you have any idea what that does to someone psychologically? To constantly see your existence being put up for debate, and the other side openly calling for our eradication? I don’t even know if I want to race my bike any more, the danger and everything that would come with racing makes it a pretty hard thing to justify to myself. But you have no right on telling me when I am done. This is my decision and mine alone.”




















157 thoughts on “Emily Bridges calls British Cycling “failed organisation”, says trans women have been “banned” as new ‘Open’ category announced”
Is the ‘Open’ category open
Is the ‘Open’ category open to anyone?
Hopefully this becomes the default for all athletes.
Well of course it won’t –
Well of course it won’t – because women wouldn’t be competitive in it. For many sports where contact is either part of the sport or potentially possible it would be obscene – like televising domestic abuse.
That’s why we created events for women and events for men. That’s not the end of it because there’s concerns over coverage, sponsership, pay, winnings etc.
If we have to call men “open”, whatever, it’s men isn’t it? Laura Kenny isn’t going to start racing her husband because of this change.
Yes, it will be open to
Yes, it will be open to anyone. It is simply renaming the men’s category. Both males and females will be able to ride in Open races. Only females will be allowed to ride in Women’s races. It’s pretty simple.
My take on this is that there
My take on this is that there will be separate male, female and open category.
The open category encompasses everyone apart from male, and female to male trans athletes.
I’m assuming that at a grass roots level, most women’s promotions will actually be ‘open’ races moving forward, and that its only at national level where there will be defined women’s events.
Your take on it is completely
Your take on it is completely wrong. Did you even read BC’s statement? Your assumptions about grass roots level racing are equally incorrect.
Well, that’s the kind of
Well, that’s the kind of focused, nuanced, diplomatic response that is really going to be constructive in this debate
Agreed – but I’m sure a
Agreed – but I’m sure Bridges’ compelling scientific critique is in preparation.
Just seen the full statement.
Just seen the full statement. Now, I have trans and non-binary friends, and I’m cool with a nuanced and respectful debate that avoids throwing accusations and hyperbole around.
But Emily Bridges has just accused BC of “furthering a genocide against us”. Firstly, that’s just absolute hysterical nonsense. Secondly, as someone who had members of my family killed in an actual genocide, it’s deeply offensive.
the little onion wrote:
Sadly (for Emily) I have to agree. Thats a rant worthy of the deep extremes of Twitter.
the little onion wrote:
Have a million likes. Hysterical nonsense like that just betrays the selfishness that underlies Emily’s campaign. She doesn’t care about her competitors, and she doesn’t care about the impact of her hysterical ranting on people who have actually suffered in the way she thinks she has.
Isn’t ‘Open’ exactly what it
Isn’t ‘Open’ exactly what it says on the tin? Open to all – or, in other words, no one ‘banned.’ I’m not sure how Emily is coming up with her definition.
(Yes, I appreciate that she probably feels significantly disadvantaged by not being included in the female category…)
The definition is “I need the
The definition is “I need the world to tell me something that I know isn’t true” and open doesn’t do that.
It’s like having a toilet that anyone can use. Most people will go into that toilet but a few want the toilet to confirm a delusion and so that’s not good enough.
Plus, of course, as a 50-something I’m reasonably sure I could be competitive in women’s races – if not at the elite level certainly way above the level I’d be competitive in an open categery. Undoubtedly that’s going to create a sizable amount of butthurt if someone figured they could get an easy medal.
Maybe they could hop or limp and see if the paraolympics will let them compete? (probably not though) bump into a few things and tell them you identify as being blind
You’re a nastly litte troll
You’re a nastly litte troll aren’t you?
Glad I am not the only one
Glad I am not the only one who thought this. Six posts in and all nasty.
Nigel….is that you?
Christ, imagine how horrible
Christ, imagine how horrible it must feel to be disadvantaged in the category you compete it due to biological differences.
Open category = open to
Open category = open to anyone except transgender female athletes? Has Emily read that correctly?
Open to everyone except
Open to everyone except Female athletes taking male hormones.
Emily hasn’t been banned,
Emily hasn’t been banned, they can still compete in another category, albeit one which doesn’t give them an unfair advantage.
Very sensible decision by British Cycling at last.
I’m pretty sure Emily isn’t
I’m pretty sure Emily isn’t saying transgender cyclists have been banned in the sense of “not being allowed to race”. If you think about an “open” category, who is going to choose to race in it? Cis-gender men will continue racing in that category, cis-gender women in that category. Leaving the “open” category for? The very small number of competetive transgender and non-binary cyclists. It’s “in effect” banning these cyclists because, while they technically can compete, in reality there’s likely to be so few competitors in this category to make any competition pointless and meaningless.
Translating it with chatgpt’s
Translating it with chatgpt’s English -> Boo hoo butthurt plugin
It’s “Whaa whaa whaa boo whaa fascist whaa whaa petrol whaa whaa tories whaa whaa I can’t win a race now whaa whaa not fair whaa whaa now I’ll have to race against other men and I’m crap at cycling whaa whaa whaa whaa I’m hysterical
Pathetic.
Pathetic.
You’ve misunderstood. The
You’ve misunderstood. The Open category is not in addition to Male and Female categories. It is replacing the Male category. So races will either be ‘Open’ or ‘Female’. All males will race in Open races. Females will be able to race in either category, unless they are undergoing hormone therapy resulting in blood androgen levels over the limit for females, in which case they will have to race in an Open race.
See how easy it is when we use the words ‘male’ and ‘female’?
simonj61 wrote:
No, the men will be racing in the “open” category (the male category is subsumed by “open”) – as will transgender MtF people.
Did you even read the article
Did you even read the article?
WTF is cis-gender?
WTF is cis-gender?
Someone who is born
Someone who is born biologically male or female, and identifies as the same gender.
As least you didn’t say
As least you didn’t say assigned at birth, which I have read in several places.
Yeah, as if the baby pops out and says I’m a…
dubwise wrote:
It’s a label applied to non-trans people (i.e. those living as the sex they were born) by trans people, because more labels is always a good thing, right?
The term “cis” is a chemistry term describing the structure of a molecule with atoms of the same element on the same side of the molecule. A “trans” molecule has those atoms on opposite sides of the molecule. Cis is therefore the opposite of trans in chemistry and in the minds of trans activists.
Cis and trans are latin words
Cis and trans are latin words, cis meaning ‘this side’ and trans ‘on the other side’, as for example in Gallia cisalpina, in todays northern Italy and Gallia transalpina in todays south-eastern France.
Interesting, thanks!
Interesting, thanks!
So now we have to be labelled
So now we have to be labelled just to suit a very small section of society.
I know things are going to sh*t but this is a joke.
If this is the worst
If this is the worst imposition I have to suffer over the next decade I’ll count myself lucky.
Not sure why road.cc didn’t
Not sure why road.cc didn’t include the full statement…
I like to think I’m broadly a
I like to think I’m broadly a supporter of Trans rights but I have to say I dont think Emily trying to prove she belongs in a “hysterical woman” category is the winning argument she thinks it is. (In spite of the deflection lower down the post)
If she wants to take control of the narrative she’s going to have to do a lot better than the above rant.
So the true colours emerge.
So the true colours emerge. According to Emily there is a “genocide” happening. “Violence, terrified to exist … media pushing a far right ultra capitalist narrative… BC is homophobic, mysoginistic, racist, patriarchal, … Nazis openly calling for genocide, fascists, child kidnappers, conspiracy theorists.” Did I miss anything?
This juvenile screed full of strawman arguments (trans strawwoman?) fits predictably into the larger public’s opinion of trans activists.
Funnily enough, it seems less
Funnily enough, it seems less “hysterical woman” and more “angry entitled man” to me. She might want to reduce her testosterone a bit further next time.
It’s embedded in the article.
It’s embedded in the article.
Thanks for updating.
Thanks for updating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c
Ahead of their time. The last line sums it up.
Yeah well ultimately all this
Yeah well ultimately all this would have to be the end of competitive sport.
Really? Based on what
Really? Based on what evidence? I dont think either side of the debate has the evidence to suggest that this is “the end of competitive sport”
Hysteria on either side doesnt help anyone.
Why do you accuse me of being
Why do you accuse me of being hysteric? I say this as cool as a cucumber.
IF in a society the gender distinctions based on biological sex become unacceptable, because discriminatory one way or the other or the third or all of them at once, then this ultimately (not today, not tomorrow, but in the logical conclusion) means the end of any distinctions based on biological sex.
Seeing what competitive sport has become (or always was), it wouldn’t be a great loss. Above and beyond that, the way our whole society is based on competition is profoundly detrimental not only to us, but the whole living world.
I have nothing against
I have nothing against transgender cyclists, or any other cyclists for that matter, but when an average male cyclist changes gender and becomes an elite female rider, they can’t say there’s no advantage.
And no amount of ranting is going to change that
I think the challenge with
I think the challenge with Emily is that she was far from an average male rider. She was on the BC world class performance plan, represented her country as a male.
My assumption is that BC, UCI etc. knew that allowing Emily to compete as a woman would blow the lid off the trans sport argument; she would be utterly dominant in women’s races.
I empathise with Emily’s position, but I equally understand why this action has been taken and why Emily has been the catalyst for it.
She does raise some good points though… as much as its easy to focus on the fairness argument, we should also be aware that we are being led by the media and will inadvertently be pawns used to push wider anti-trans arguments.
Where is the evidence that
Where is the evidence that this is being led by the media. Its a fact that MtF trans athletes have a large advantage over biological women. The problem is that the radical trans rights groups are just that. Radical. They use ridiculous language like genocide and take any perceived slight or treatment that doesn’t stick fingers in ears and shout “trans women are identical to biological women” as an attack and transphobic.
They are like the extreme end of any spectrum. Nutters that should be treated as such.
Yes it sucks that your gender identity prevents you from doing what you love in a way that you would like but unfortunately thats life and in this case its absolutely required to keep womens sport viable.
The thing that amazes me is that anyone who has competed in sports at a reasonable level knows there is a huge difference between men and women as soon as you hit puberty. These people know that they are competing in womens sport and have a large advantage and they just don’t care. I can’t rationalise that. I can’t rationalise that they play the victim whilst knowingly having an unfair advantage over their peers. I can’t rationalise the fact that they desperately want to be treated as a biological woman and yet are happy to take the right of fair competition away from other biological women.
mctrials23 wrote:
There is a measurable difference pre-puberty too. Nowhere as huge, but it’s there. Young boys (as a population) are slightly stronger and faster than girls. The differences start with a spurt of testosterone in gestation, and another spurt in the first 6 months.
Completely sensible and
Completely sensible and inevitable policy from British Cycling.
Every sympathy for transgender people, but MtF using vestigial male-privilege – from the testosterone they developed with – against those without that advantage is not fair. And there is no human right to allow medical treatments to give one an unfair advantage in sport – not by doping, not by gender transition.
British Cycling: *creates new
British Cycling: *creates new category for the purposes of allowing trans athletes to compete*
Emily Bridges: “British Cycling just banned us from racing”
You just can’t win sometimes.
Seriously, how many trophies would keep her happy? There’s a place near me that does them for a few quid each, though they are quite small for that price. Would that do the trick? We could have them engraved with whatever she wanted then!
An analogy : If a cyclist
An analogy : If a cyclist takes EPO during the ‘off season’ for 5 years and only races ‘clean’ during that time they’ll have reached a higher physiological level than a totally clean cyclist on average. Let’s suppose they are then caught by a random off-season test and serve a ban. After the ban the cyclist decides to be totally clean but nevertheless, when they return to competition, continue to preform at a very high level, maybe even winning some events. Would this be fair I hear asked? Well I have to say no. No because those years of doping have raised the physiological level way above what it would otherwise have been and this pays dividends going forward even after the drugs have been discontinued.
Unfortunately those people who whish to transition to another sex have this issue to contend with. I’m sure a cis-female might feel the same about someone who’d gone through puberty as a cis-male. Testosterone causes cis-men to pack on muscle compared to cis-women. That’s just the way it is and that’s why women compete in a class of their own rather than a class which includes those ‘strengthened’ by testosterone. Now exceptions always exist, like someone not going through puberty before transition and so on….
Testosterone has already
Testosterone has already caused physiological differences to occur in males from birth onward. Lung size, skeleton, etc. The effects, in terms of performance, become profound in puberty. Teenage boys circa ~15 outperform adult women (as a population; also at the highest level).
Don’t forget brain
Don’t forget brain development too. Testosterone will mould your way of thinking. Even if you take testosterone blockers later on, there’ll still potentially be that male mindset.
Yes I’m an old-man and
Yes I’m an old-man and according to athletic data still outperform the vast majority of female athletes. The advantage of being a man is unreal. I think the book ‘exercised’ says that, on average, men have 61% more muscle than women, with 75% more upper body muscle. A woman, literally, has to be an Olympic athlete just to get near. I still get my ass handed to me though when I go fell-running.
VIPcyclist wrote:
Yep it definitely is. I’ve got Strava data on some popular training climbs to compare myself against a certain female Olympic gold medallist. I’m at about the same level as her. Admittedly, she’s not a climber, but… I’m pretty certain any male gold-medal track or sprint star would absolutely smoke me on a climb.
I’ve sat on the wheel of her brother a few times, when he’s happened to pass me on his training rides while I’m commuting. He’s a /very/ good cyclist on the track, with a world record to his name I think, but he did not /quite/ make it to the absolute top-level in male terms. I would be dying in his slipstream, while he is in low Z2. Moment the incline went up, he would just power away, while I was absolutely out in the red – he would just remain in Z2, doing his base training.
The difference is just _vast_.
I think your analogy is
I think your analogy is flawed as the doper is trying to cheat the rules of the sport and the transitioner attempting to live their life, whilst also cycling competitively.
There may be a niche of a niche case where someone transitions for physical advantage, but I haven’t seen any sincere reporting of that.
As for what is fair is what the science dictates the rules to be – transpeople in sports is relatively new and therefore the science and data is still being compiled. IMO removing trans people from their gender category will never give the data to determine that there is a problem or if it’s part of a culture war.
The analogy is about the
The analogy is about the advantage that testosterone gives. I use that analogy because it highlights the lasting physiological changes that give a compelling advantage to cis-males regardless of how they later choose to live their lives.
bennettkaru wrote:
We have quite good data on the population performance differences between men and women. We also have data on the reduction in performance on competitive MtF trans-athletes from hormone treatment.
The reduction in the latter is less than the former.
We also have non-rigorous, but fairly obvious, empirical data from a number of sports, where people have competed as men and then as women (cycling, weightlifting, swimming – are some I can think of): The person’s relative ranking increases significantly.
It is not true to say we do not have data, and/or that there is no evidence of a retained performance advantage.
British Cycling ought to be
British Cycling ought to be showing the source material to justify their decision then, no?
The source material is not
The source material is not hard to find. Sports scientists with sidelines in explaining science to popular audiences have covered the ground too – e.g. see Ross Tucker’s Science in Sport blog – he’s been covering this issue on and off for a while.
Really, the argument that we do not know whether trans-gender MtF on 12+ months of hormone treatment have an advantage is untrue. They generally have somewhere between a large to massive advantage across a range of sports. Though, not all sports. Cycling though, they do.
I say this respectfully – I
I say this respectfully – I think we both have an angle on this, I’d like BC to have shared their findings in order to allay this discussion.
If the findings show it is irrefutable and there’s a permanent vs the current year+ on hormones then obviously something would have to change.
However I would draw back to the point of – female sports are not being dominated by transwomen and removing them from the race means we’ll never know if they could be. Presumably BC again would have this data?
But surely after many years
But surely after many years of women trying to get recognition in sports it is not right to allow men to compete in the female category. I see no problem with a new category. Let’s not lose sight of the fact that biological women have the right to compete against other biological women and should not be forced to compete against men, no matter how much those nen have been chemically altered.
There is no source material.
There is no source material. As much as anything else it’s a pragmatic and philosophical decision, based upon societal norms and values.
And I don’t mean simply you were born a man, therefore you’ll always be a man, end of.
Society, at least in this country, is basically hugely tolerant and empathetic.
If there were a way of removing every male physical advantage from a trans female athlete which was 100% fair on female athletes, and which didn’t totally wreck trans female athletes’ performance to the extent of just making them come last in every women’s race, then BC would be all over it like a rash, and the fair-minded majority would be in agreement.
But it’s simply not possible, it’s too much of a grey area where someone will always be hard done by, and the results always skewed.
It’s not enough just to say look, see how some trans women are losing against women, and some are winning, therefore the new testosterone limits we brought in must be fair.
It’ll just never work.
I’ll just pick up on “Society
I’ll just pick up on “Society, at least in this country, is basically hugely tolerant and empathetic.”
Society in the UK has changed a deal over the decades. It may appear to be tolerant. However this “hugely tolerant” still includes a great deal of hatred directed towards some and indeed sexual violence. Mostly directed towards women, LGBTQ+ (not sure of initiallism now) people.
In one sense the change trans people are looking for is straightforward – just treat people as who they say they are. Simples. On the other hand I think the full extent of this is a major societal change. Our empathy is limited simply because our psychology means we are “essentialists” – we find it hard to believe that people can completely change from one category to another for many categories.
This isn’t just adding a new category – it’s challenging our assumptions about how the system works. From the comments it’s clear many of us are struggling with the language at least – if not also the concepts – of sex, sexuality, gender identity…
I hope this turns out not to be a zero sum game but it’s hard to see how right now.
There are plenty of examples
There are plenty of examples where mediocre male athletes then identify as women and go on to win at a high level. I’m sure not all are genuine transgender women. In the same way not all transgender male sex offenders are not genuine transgender women. Its a convenient loophole for cynical men.
As I say – BC can present
As I say – BC can present studies and data used to that effect, to justify their decision. I don’t think blurring the lines of trans offenders does you any justice and only sours this discussion – where my sole point is that:
Justify the decision please BC, using science and/or race data.
Without this I do fear the charge of being drawn into a culture war is fair
There are two things I don’t
There are two things I don’t understand here.
On 1., I’d be wary of
On 1., I’d be wary of suggesting that. People can deeply, genuinely believe all sorts of things, especially when cocooned in self-selecting, often online, bubbles which encourage the idea that anyone who doesn’t believe 110% is A LITERAL NAZI !!
Of course, one extreme begets another, and they reinforce each others’ entrenched positions. But they’re still genuinely held (in most cases).
I fear that Emily – still young and having had a difficult time – is surrounded by people who encourage ever more outrage, rather than suggesting a more considered approach. I hope there there are calmer presences around.
On 2., of course, you’re 110% correct and thus not A LITERAL NAZI (at least on this point).
All of that, well said.
All of that, well said.
At the bottom of all this is an absolute trans female obsession with bring treated EXACTLY as a woman in every way.
I get it (they’ll all scream NO YOU DON’T of course), to feel you were born in the wrong body and then feel truly set free when you declare you’re a woman, must be a huge thing for you, and even more so when you are fully accepted as such. Part of your transition and acceptance will be to be fully accepted as a female athlete. Sorry, but you can never be. I went bald early, my teeth are wonky and I have a small todger, that’s my reality and there’s nothing I can do about it. Life’s a b***h sometimes, just hold your head up and surround yourself with good people.
Oh, and don’t go looking on social media for support, SM has a large proportion of haters who love to make you feel bad. It’s because they’re pathetic, it’s THEY who are to be pitied, NOT YOU. 95% of people are GOOD people, ignore the 5% who love to hurt you for the sake of it.
When you have an obsession
When you have an obsession (which Emily clearly has, just check out the language she’s using), deceiving yourself is exactly what you do unfortunately.
I admire her strength in what she’s gone through, she’s a good looking girl (no I’m not being patronising and certainly that would be important to her) and she can have a fulfilling life as a woman, with relationships, job career and all the rest of it, as a trans woman who to nearly all intents and purposes IS a woman.
But demanding to be allowed to compete in women’s sport is a step too far, and hurts women. Sorry Emily but that’s true.
The correct decision has been
The correct decision has been made, as post puberty anyone born male will have a mechanical advantage in a sport like cycling, due to the wider pelvis and head of femur changes in post pubescent females to make allowances for child birth.
No amount of testosterone reduction or regulation will change this significant advantage and I am sure Emily is quite aware of all this.
yupiteru wrote:
Please provide research to back up your statements?
If you take time to research
If you take time to research it there is a lot of scientific evidence to show that makes gain an advantage over females at an early age. Sharron Davies has led the campaign to ensure fairness for women in sport and has a lot of the studies referenced on her twitter account. It makes for a lot of interesting reading and has no doubt contributed to several sports barring trans women from competing against biological women
However disappointed one
However disappointed one might be to be enabled by a new category that removes any suggestion of, or demonstratrable, unfairness it’s not going to provide a rational debate or general acceptance to say “genocide against us”!
I suspect that most rational people would agree that inclusion is already being provided and a science led approach to future arrangements which is all that any sporting organisation can do.
That’s as non-political as it is possible to be, and pays no attention to mainstream or social media agendas.
When has sport, especially at
When has sport, especially at an elite level, been fair? The Olympics, Tdf etc are basically genetic freak shows.
Ah, the old “sport is unfair
Ah, the old “sport is unfair because there’s a winner” argument. Now with the addendum, “therfore make it exponentially unfairer still.”
I look forward to hearing
I look forward to hearing complaints from the men who have had ‘their’ category supplanted by those pesky trans, non-binary and intersex riders.
Still don’t see what’s wrong with Male, Female, and Misc. categories….
I doubt you will hear much.
I doubt you will hear much. Just the odd crap white middle aged man who would have finished 43rd in a race who now finished 44th.
muppetkeeper wrote:
The ‘open’ approach is being adopted only at the elite level, so not even that.
Cleaving to assertions which
Cleaving to assertions which are unequivocally false (“banned”, violence”, “genocide”) hardly lends credence to the rest of what Bridges asserts as true.
So now, according to british
So now, according to british cycling, a trans man is a woman and a trans woman is a man. Way to insult everyone in one fell swoop! Bascically they’ve set up a system in which trans women are marginalised and, as a result of hormone treatments, put at an unfair competitive disadvantage. Well done to all!
Genuinely sorry for Emily and
Genuinely sorry for Emily and other transgender athletes who are now facing competion in an open classification where they will most likely be at a hormone induced disadvantage. However, it was always going to be unfair to someone. There is no correct answer, this one seems to be least worst for the majority of female by birth athletes and credibility of the sport.
Exactly that.
Exactly that.
No, I think BC have said
No, I think BC have said trans men can compete with men, or even with women (not that they’d want to, I get that) so long as they’re not taking testosterone?
It’s a minefield and it’s a conundrum (unsolvable) in terms of ‘feelings’. Just because you have strong feelings about something, it doesn’t mean you’re inherently right. It’s the difference between subjectivity and objectivity?
But ultimately, you cannot have women’s sport utterly wrecked by trans women who essentially have male bodies.
No. A trans man is still a
No. A trans man is still a woman. And can compete as such right up until the day they take testosterone. At which point they are banned from competition under the doping regulations.
By definition, in
By definition, in transitioning, trans women have marginalised THEMSELVES, and then demanded everyone else fall into line and pick up the pieces for them. They’re demanding special treatment . Special treatment (social acceptance etc) can only go so far. No one forced Emily to transition. She would have known what the gender rules in sport were. She’s effectively changed the way she self-identifies and then demanded the rules be changed just for her.
Also worth pointing out that not all trans women feel the same way about this. All we hear from are the very vocal ones. There seems to be no recognition from them that they are effectively putting a bomb under women’s sport.
I think bit by bit they’ll carve a niche for themselves and trans women will have their own races etc. But it’s THEY who’ll have to put in most of the hard yards, you cannot simply keep having everything given to you at others’ expense.
A great many people are
A great many people are placed at a disadvantage in, or have to give up competitive sport by their choices of treatment for medical or medicalised conditions. I don’t see that people having issues with gender dysmorphia have a right for more special accomodation.
Absolutely the right decision
Absolutely the right decision by BC, thank goodness.
Common sense.
Common sense.
It appears to me that British
It appears to me that British Cycling had 2 choices,
1. Let people who identify as women race in the women’s category, and not have a single person who was genetically female at birth be able to compete fairly in racing.
2. Create a category for anyone who was genetically male at birth, and allow all of the genetically “advantaged” race together.
I’m pleased that I didn’t have to make the decision, but I can’t see that they had much choice.
I dislike quite a lot about how British Cycling operate, I have worked for them in the past and they do / did have issues around sexism, bullying etc etc, but even with that dislike I have to say the open category is fair.
The attack from Emily has some merit, but BC can’t help it if Sport England are funded by the government, and that government are a bunch of idiot. They would have chosen a different sponsor to Shell if anyone else had been interested, but they weren’t.
muppetkeeper wrote:
Really? There’s half a dozen other options from other sports I can think of off the top of my head. Golf has handicapping, motoracing has multiple classes in the same race. Boxing has weight classification. There are literally dozens of models for non-binary classification in sport. The fact that neither you or BC considered them is a failure of imagination and will.
Handicapping isn’t used in
Handicapping isn’t used in top level golf and it wouldn’t work in top level cycling. Top competitive sport is hard and even brutal, it’s an expression of human limits, it’s about bring the best with no blurring.
The handicapping of which you speak already exists, in having men’s and women’s events.
I used to be 1st Cat when it meant getting my head kicked in by domestic Pros in Pro/1/2 races, and I loved it. In later life I’ve loved handicapped circuit racing with girls, boys, adults and old codgers (me) and it’s wonderful. Inclusive and rith mentoring. But not for top level sport, and of course that’s what Emily craves, to be fully seen as a woman in top level races. But she’s trans woman, and there’s a physical difference which can’t be artificially made ‘fair’.
And you can’t compare boxing with cycling, bigger guy is always gonna beat a smaller guy, whereas in cycling fat sprinters can compete meaningfully with skinny climbers.
You’re comparing chalk and cheese.
But surely where we are
But surely where we are considering Emily Bridges we are not in golf handicap territory. She is a contender for top elite competition. Golf is having to confront the issue of transgender golfers taking major women’s professional golf trophies. Maybe they don’t have an advantage over birth gendered women, but if transgender women start routinely taking major women’s trophies then clearly they need a category of their own or compete in open competition.
Great post. Wonder if I know
Great post. Wonder if I know you….? Only kidding! ?
And I agree with your reference to Shell, it’s very easy to demonise an energy company, but if it weren’t for them we’d still be living (almost) in the dark ages. ALL of us.
Oil and gas was the energy of then, demanded by all of us, and like it or not, companies like Shell will probably be the clean energy providers of the future. They’re not baby eaters?
Again, it’s this woke hysteria which seems to hate everything we are and have been. We’re a work in progress.
“Oil and gas was the energy
“Oil and gas was the energy of then, demanded by all of us, and like it or not, companies like Shell will probably be the clean energy providers of the future.”
You lost me there.
The problem here is the same
The problem here is the same as problems elsewhere in society: the vast majority are good people who are empathetic and want everyone to feel included, no one feeling left out. And we hate to think of anyone getting upset through feeling excluded. Our liberal society says people can be who and what they want to be. That’s great.
Hence the attitude of many, who say you can have a p***s and be a woman. No though, you can’t. You can be a TRANS woman, and apart from a hateful few who’ll spew bile about you on social media, everyone else will use your chosen pronouns and be considerate of you and respect your feelings.
Trouble is though, there’s harsh reality to consider too: whatever rules you put in place to include trans women in competition, about testosterone levels and all the rest of it, it’ll still be a grey area. It’s a bit like TUEs, where’s the line between treating a medical condition and performance enhancement? We’ve been through all that with Wiggins’ use of Kenacort for his TdeF win. It was by definition legal, but was it 100% ethical and real? (Of course other riders were using it the same, but Russian hackers selectively exposed him, and now we know why).
I feel genuine empathy for trans women such as Emily Bridges, I’ll treat you like a woman, you may even be more actually ‘feminine’ than some women (sexuality is a broad church, for both males and females, with overlap), but ultimately you were born male and went through puberty as male, with all the physical advantages of a male body .
The cold reality is that it’s not fair on cis women if you compete in athletic competition with them.
Unfortunately there is utter hysteria over all of this, and to see Bridges flinging mud at a national body simply trying to do right by women is totally unfair, even to the extent of calling out ‘racism’. OK then, well is football racist for having 50% black players in the Premiership when only 3.5% of the UK population are black?
Too much hysteria already, people need to calm down and think rationally.
Vo2Maxi wrote:
Nice post, considered and genuine. However I have to disagree with the quote from your post above – it’s clearly not the cold reality, as the research shows. I
You’re absolutely right, it’s a huge grey area and while BC have been utterly, categorically shite in most other things they’ve done of late, with this they’re between the biggest rock you can imagine and the hardest place in the world! Whatever they do will be the wrong thing.
Emily Bridges’ comments are unfortunate and in unnecessary language but she’s clearly hurt, feels victimised by BC and doesn’t know where to turn. A more considered comment in the next few days would help, but you have to sympathise with the pain she’s feeling on top of what I can only imagine would be the massive mindf*ck of growing up in the wrong body.
First rule of life is that
First rule of life is that feeling hurt and hard done by is NOT proof you are right.
I have no doubt whatsoever about the strength of her feelings, but she’s calling it a ‘trans genocide’ which is clearly nuts. She’s just lashing out and mudslinging, the reference to ‘racism’ in cycling is utter tosh. Not many black people race bikes, ergo cycling is racist. It’s playground politics, and actually offensive.
How about if she gets to compete in women’s sport, and then female athletes who’ve had their sport stolen from them commit suicide? Who’s right then?
Hysterical arguments are never good ones, and when you really look at it, it becomes my rights are bigger than your rights. And that’s not right!
Part of what’s distressing
Part of what’s distressing for her here, is the change of mind displayed by BC, which gave her false hope.
But of course that was borne out a desire to ‘be kind and inclusive’. That’s what’s at the heart of the basic bogusness of woke.
Everyone needs to step back and take a deep breath and get real.
You need to read more of the
You need to read more of the research.
Two sides to every story, of
Two sides to every story, of course. A quick web search for peer-reviewed research into the effect of testosterone suppression treatment in trans-women athletes demonstrates two opposing scientific views in the first two search results:
https://cces.ca/sites/default/files/content/docs/pdf/transgenderwomenathletesandelitesport-ascientificreview-e-final.pdf
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3
What’s notable is the number of sensible, considered comments here, and also the number of bigoted, nasty homophobic comments masquerading as sensible and considered comments.
It’s really sad to see trans people dismissed in the way that they have been by some posters, in exactly the same way as we complain that non-cyclists dismiss us when they start their comments with ‘I’m a keen cyclist but…’
We ought not be judging until we’ve experienced what they’ve experienced.
Live and let live, folks!
MattieKempy wrote:
First day on the internet? 😉
There’s nothing remotely
There’s nothing remotely homophobic about not wanting men competing in women’s sports competitions.
Sexuality (homo, hetero, bi or whatever) is about who you are attracted to. You can’t be wrong about it, and nobody can gainsay your honest opinion of who you fancy.
Sex is about whether you are male or female (or for a tiny number of people, which doesn’t include Emily Bridges, somewhere in between). It is independently verifiable, and you can be wrong about it. I could truly and honestly believe I was (or should have been) a woman, but I’m not one. As such I have an innate physical advantage over women, and shouldn’t compete in athletic events against them.
Gender identity is bullshit. It’s about reacting to (or in some ways reinforcing) old stereotypes about how men and women “should” behave. People should be free to act, dress, and generally present themselves however they choose. If I want to wear a dress or make-up (or even shave my legs), that doesn’t mean I’m “really” a woman any more than a woman who doesn’t do those things is a man.
There are plenty of lesbian sportswomen who are firmly against men being allowed to compete in women’s sport. Are they homophobes too?
A man cannot become a woman,
A man cannot become a woman, thats a fact!!! Men should not compete agaist women, end of!!!!
Are you really Ron De Santis
Are you really Ron De Santis posting under a pseudonym?
Objectively what difference
Objectively what difference does it make to your sad life if someone is transgender? Would you rather they slit their wrists or overdose than live their life for themselves? Because the suicide figures are there.
It’s not about them living
It’s not about them living their lives for themselves, any fair minded person has nothing against that.
It’s about them stealing women’s sport. They are trans women, NOT women.
And if you think suicide is (always) proof of being hard done by, you have a lot to learn about life
They’re women. End of.
They’re women. End of.
nosferatu1001 wrote:
They’re men masquerading as women. Which is fine, but don’t expect to muscle in on real women’s sport, or their personal private domains without a backlash.
Rubbish. Says who? You are
Rubbish. Says who? You are vastly in the minority with that opinion and the vast majority who have tolerated these crazy views will no longer do so out of a desire to ‘be nice’. There’s a limit to being nice to people when it starts turning into being nasty to others, in this case cis women.
It’s like I take a plane to another country and refuse to leave, on the basis that I now self declare as a national of that country. Are they gonna go, aww OK, you’ve made the effort to speak our language, we’ll just let you in. Oh, and here’s a house and a job too.
No they are men. End of.
No they are men. End of.
And you’re a c**t End of.
And you’re a c**t End of.
Adam Sutton wrote:
Poor choice of insult, given the context.
What definition of “women”
What definition of “women” are you using here?
They “identify” as women.
They “identify” as women. They’re not women.
Vo2Maxi wrote:
Really? Because many of the comments here don’t show that, do they!
The large majority of posts
The large majority of posts don’t make any reference to people living their lives for themselves, and many go out of their way to note the hard time trans people undoubtedly have.
What the posts seem to be against is the idea of men (which trans women are) competing in women-only events as they have an innate biological advantage. Look at the records for elite men and elite women if you don’t believe that, unless you’re one of those who thinks women should just try harder.
Adam, you’ll see that most
Adam, you’ll see that most posts on here are understanding of the trans dilemma, and sympathetic?
Very little here in this thread is actually nasty, or intended to be so. Some are exasperated by the lack of logic in the trans sport inclusion argument, that’s for sure.
But I haven’t heard anyone call Emily a Nazi, or say that trans athletes want to impose a genocide on women?
As cyclists we’re a pretty good bunch I think? I agree, there’s utter bile on lots of social media around this debate, but I think Emily and others have used that as ‘evidence’ of widespread hate. That’s a very unnecessary and flawed view I think.
And it’s the same hysteria which leads to footballers endlessly taking the knee, like it’ll magically get rid of racism. No it won’t, the people who throw bananas on the pitch find it hilarious how much angst they cause. Ignore them, ridicule them, and arrest them when they get recognised on CCTV.
Nasty spiteful object
Nasty spiteful object interested only in their own little fad.
Yet again traditional Roadcc spitefullness in the replies. Why should someones life be “sad” if they object to transgender. They have as much right to an opinion as you. If you can object to them then they can object to you.
Oh, sorry, that doesn’t apply in modern Britain does it?
I feel for Emily Bridges. I
I feel for Emily Bridges. I cannot imagine what kind of hell it must be to live feeling trapped in the body of the wrong sex. But she demeans herself and millions of dead by comparing this decision to “genocide.” She’s been told she cannot compete in a certain category of sport. It an effing sport. Sport is full of inequalities. It is, in fact, built around inequalities. It favors those who are biologically blessed. Bridges was biologically blessed as a young male. She changed her gender so it would free herself from that maleness. She is now technologically blessed. The question here is really this: Should a competitor be allowed to be both biologically blessed and technologically blessed? It’s basically the same question that has come up with blade runners on the track.
An interesting take on this
An interesting take on this issue.
A big part of it (but by no means all) is testosterone levels. Bridges has made great play of documenting her performance decline since taking testosterone blockers and reducing her physical level by ‘x amount’. She presents it as ‘proof’ that she can now compete as a woman.
But it’s an intangible. Not only are there many other physical factors not affected by loss of testosterone, who is to say at what point her overall performance has now become that of a woman? It’s too much of a grey area, it causes too much confusion.
Also worth pointing out that some trans women would be more affected than others, even by hitting the same testosterone target level. Some will have their performances wrecked totally, others will still be competitive in women’s sport.
You simply cannot have that level of uncertainty in top level women’s sport, all for the sake of inclusion and Bridges personal mission to feel like a woman 100% in every way, on her own terms.
Lots of sour grapes in her
Lots of sour grapes in her post, to be expected.
2X chromosomes=biological woman. XY= biological man. The tiny, tiny fraction that deviate biologically from that: to be determined.
That she feels like a woman and identifies as a woman and had surgery/treatment doesn’t change that fact.
Besides, she can still compete: either against men or in a separate category that is to be developed. But then, suddenly, it becomes an insurmountable issue and society is no longer inclusive, the government is planning genocide etc etc. Never mind that before the decision, all those biological women simply had to suck it in and get on with it.
Xenophon2 wrote:
Not such category exists and BC have just announced they have no intention of creating one.
An utterly sensible decision,
An utterly sensible decision, at first sight. In practive however, nobody is going to see the Open Category as open, but as the men’s category, and any odd trans athlete as an … oddity. So I really sympathise with Emily Bridges, because in practice, she is being told to accept the humiliation of either racing with the men, or not to race at all. I can’t begin to understand how upset she must feel to basically have bike racing being taken from her, it’s a huge part of one’s identity for anyone racing at that level. I don’t have a better solution either. Except for the cycling community to come together and make the sport outside of elite competition as welcoming and inclusive as we can make it. For those here saying that she brought that exclusion onto herself etc: You can and have to do better.
Did you also consider the
Did you also consider the matter from the perspective of female athletes who must have felt that there was no longer a point in competing when facing a competitor whose biological makeup (power/weight ratio etc) gave her a biological advantage that went far beyond what could be achieved by hard training or genetics?
I have nothing against trans people at all and everyone is free to consider themselves a man, woman, underterminate or whatever.
Xenophon2 wrote:
Nope, females don’t matter is their viewpoint.
Of course, which is why I
Of course, which is why I said that I don’t have a better solution either. I absolutely understand why several CIS female professional riders threatened to boycott upcoming races. I also understand that BC can’t put our a press release saying they are de facto excluding trans women from professional racing, but I think that the cycling community including on this forum can just be honest and acknowledge that that’s what’s just happened, and how hard that must be for some including Emily Bridges. The vast majority of cycling is non-professional, and what we can do is come together and be kind and intentionally welcoming. From my experience at club level riding, this would hugely benefit everyone inside and outside a culture that is still far too often white and cis male.
The vast vast vast majority
The vast vast vast majority of trans-women would never have been able to cycle professionally to begin with. They do not have elite, professional level physiology.
That they were able to get to elite/pro level *after* transitioning means they are _unfairly_ pushing out other women who _do_ have elite/pro level physiology.
That they are excluded from elite/pro level /womens/ category does not mean they lost anything. For they never had the physiology to justify such a career – other than by using their retained male developmental advantages against those who did not have that.
Emily Bridges is the one potential exception to this. She displayed some talent in male categories, before treatment. Though, it is still _not a given_ that she could have made it to pro level. Maybe, but maybe not.
I haven’t raced for years now
I haven’t raced for years now, but there used to be BCF 3rd Cat road races where women could compete, and even 2nd & 3rd Cat races with special dispensation? Race organisers and the local division blazer brigade would be aware of who would warrant a ride. It used to work well. I often raced against couple of women in 2/3 races in my division, one was Women’s BBAR and the other was on the British Olympic squad. If you got in a break with those two you knew about it!
So yes, I think women such as Emily Bridges could very successfully compete in such a way.
But I suspect that wouldn’t be enough for her, she’d want to ride in women’s races at the highest level, and I think that’s just not fair.
Definetely the right decision
Definetely the right decision by British Cycling.
Bridges and other transgender cyclists can still compete, and if they’re good enough, win, given that they have the same physical advantages as the men they will be racing against in the open category.
Allowing transgender cyclists to race against competitors that were born as women is unfair, and gives the transgender competitors an unfair advantage. This is being born out in the race results, with wins by Bridges, Killips, Seplavy, Thomas, etc, etc.
I can’t believe this even needs any debate.
leewalton wrote:
How are they going to have the same physical advantages if they’re taking Estrogen to lower their testosterone?
Its a cop out by BC to maintain the status quo.
As I understand it, the
As I understand it, the scientific consensus nowadays is that a low natural testosterone level in and by itself doesn’t fully negate -even when measured over a period of 2 years- the physiological advantages that a person who was born male and reached puberty as a male has accrued. This appears to hold true in a competitive context where a performance difference of a couple of percentage points tend to decide between fame and fortune and hard-slogging anonimity (could you quote the person who finished 17th in last year’s TDF?).
See https://blogs.bmj.com/bjsm/2021/01/22/testosterone-and-transgender-athletic-performance-finding-a-path-for-inclusion-for-transgender-athletes/
You are correct, and I don’t
You are correct, and I don’t know how old you are to be able to know this, but a big part of why Chris Boardman retired when he did (rather early) was because he had very low testosterone. He was still competing at top level, but from memory it was more a health issue for him as a man?
So no, testosterone isn’t the whole issue by a long chalk .
You’re right, trans athletes
You’re right, trans athletes won’t be able to compete successfully now, at least in terms of winning.
But the alternative is that women will have their sport slaughtered by the inclusion of trans females. And that’s unjustifiable.
There’s no way around this unfortunately, it’s impossible to introduce testosterone limits or anything else, which would be a 100% reliable “equaliser” to allow trans inclusion fairly into competitive sport.
Vo2Maxi wrote:
Stop being disingenuous and presenting this as a binary (ironically given the subject) problem. Other sports manage it – just people like you and BC lack the imagination and will to do so.
Which other sports manage it,
Which other sports manage it, where physical strength and endurance are the measures of winning, and women and Trans women are competing in harmony?
Name some.
And don’t accuse me of being disingenuous please, address my argument, not me. Otherwise I’ll call you a woke snowflake. Ad hominem arguments don’t work do they?
I’m sincere in my views, give me credit for that or just ‘cancel’ me, because that seems to be the modern way.
You didn’t make reference to
You didn’t make reference to my comments about testosterone and oestrogen either, if you want to have strong views on these matters perhaps you ought to research your argument properly?
It’s not enough just to glibly demand something because you think it’s inherently ‘right’, you have to back it up with rational argument based on fact. Otherwise your argument carries little weight.
Think you’ve got hold of the
Think you’ve got hold of the wrong end of the stick there, testosterone is reduced by taking testosterone blockers, not by ‘taking oestrogen’.
Taking oestrogen may be taken too for its feminising effects.
Sounds like you have an ‘opinion’ on this without knowing the facts?
Vo2Maxi wrote:
Potato potaatoe. Sounds like you’ll use any trivial point to avoid facing up to the fact that the world and sport is a complicated place.
Oh, you can’t admit your
Oh, you can’t admit your fundamental misunderstanding of what you’re arguing over? That’s a big shame.
I think this subject
I think this subject ultimately will always be contentious because there are no right answers. Politics, and in the end this is more political than biological, in modern Britain is consumed by providing simplistic sound bites as solutions for complex problems. It is therefore no surprise that society cannot evolve a considered solution for this modern day conundrum, we have lost the tools for politics to care about people. British Cycling is as much a victim of being buffeted around in the gale of political opinion as it is for being a perpetrator of discrimination.
Remember that “sports” such as motor racing, where physical strength is not an ultimate determining factor, and petiteness is considered an advantage over size, to the extent that some men are effectively excluded from a male sport, yet female drivers have conspicuously failed to break into the elite sport. So if we cannot resolve sports like motor racing, tests of actual physical ability are a long way down our ability to solve as a society.
My take is that in the end, a transitioned person cannot compete on the same unlevel playing field that those who are unchanged from their genetic origin. The question is, how can we kindly allow transitioned people into sport which society and commerce have declared one of our most important activities?
Great post.
Great post.
And something which never gets acknowledged is that overall..and I emphasise OVERALL, boys and men are different from girls, tend to be more forceful, push themselves physically harder, and are able to do so. Doesn’t mean there aren’t tomboys, doesn’t mean there aren’t ‘sensitive boys’, but what it does mean, is that even in darts, snooker, motor racing, whatever, there’ll still be a preponderance of men over women. The modern obsession of course, is to immediately cry MISOGYNY! as a ‘reason’ for the lack of women. It’s utter tosh. Yes, there’ll always be men who don’t like their space trodden on, but more boys than girls will be naturally drawn to these things. And no, it’s not social conditioning.
What we need is equal opportunity to try what you want and to be allowed to achieve your dreams and goals, not this gormless assertion that if there aren’t as many women, they must necessarily be downtrodden.
Same goes for the ‘no one there looks like me’ crap which gets glibly peddled around these days.
Vo2Maxi wrote:
I think you may be crossing boundaries there into a different type of discrimination…
On nature and nurture: First others have informed me that if you’re near the top of the pyramid (a white guy in the UK, US and many places) lots of problems that afflict others may simply not be visible to you.
Secondly many of the directions nature may bias people in apparently *can* be completely overridden by social conditioning. Or at least the wide range of variation in human behaviours both geographically and over time should suggest caution in saying it isn’t so.
I merely challenge the notion
Apologies, Bridges didn’t call BC racist, she effectively said the sport of cycling was ‘too white and too straight’ . I merely challenge the notion that if there is not enough ‘representation’ then there must necessarily be discrimination. It’s a lazy and misleading argument, and it leads to a sense of helplessness and entitlement which is corrosive to society as a whole. Are you really being held back by forces out of your control, or did you just not try hard enough because you thought you would be?
Where there is discrimination I shall reject it and fight it all the way. But I’m fed up with all the virtue-signalling which gives a false impression of some ‘dystopian society’ which doesn’t exist in this country.
As for nature and nurture in human sexuality and gender roles, you play with those roles at your peril. Allow children to find themselves, don’t push them into some homogeneous box you choose for them.
Vo2Maxi wrote:
I may have missed it but I don’t think that was in the statement above? (She may have said this elsewhere though). (EDIT she does accuse them of not caring about the sport being “white” – since she’s not exactly held back accusations elsewhere though I’d say she isn’t directly saying “racist”…) Her views of the state sound like that’s what she thinks of them though.
Again I think we’re roaming rather far from the point. After all in Bridges case this has been brought into sharp focus because she did try hard enough! e.g. winning men’s races as a man, then going through additional hoops for BC, then winning races as a woman and not just saying “people keep telling me to leave it – this is all a bit too hard”. And finally being told “actually, no”. I can see how it might look like (as is sometimes asserted) that some are happy for trans women to have the right to compete as long as they’re not successful.
On the wider issue (again away from this particular issue) there is ample research evidence that if you’re not from the majority you will be expected to try much harder, it will be much harder and you still may not get there. For a trivial example half the population may wish to question the assertion that they just didn’t try hard enough when working exactly the same job and that’s why they tend to get paid less / don’t get promoted!
In general the existence of also-rans with excuses don’t refute the existence of systematic discrimination. And again if it doesn’t apply to you it is very hard to see. After all, you *know* how hard you worked!
Back to Bridges – putting aside the statement I think BC have made a mess (again) but it is not easy at all. There seem to be a sizeable number of people in two different groups (elite sporting women / trans women) who have goals in direct conflict here. There may be a way through which eventually “works” more or less for either side but at the moment it does seem it’s pretty binary and existential for some.
A rather odd choice of words (“homogeneous box”) given the subject (diversity) – although I think I understand what you’re getting at. I think your fears are misplaced – but I’ve gone on long enough now!
It was definitely part of her
It was definitely part of her whole statement. Do check for yourself. She accused BC of taking part in a genocide against Trans women and she did call them a racist organisation.
Her whole argument is basically hysterical. Not only is she wrong imo, hysterical arguments mean nothing. She’s had plenty of time to form a considered response but instead she has chosen to fling a load of mud.
So yes, my comment about her racism accusation is justified imo.
And infact I would go further and also say that statements like these are indicative of a broad, aggressive, radical political woke narrative which is almost anarchic in its ferocity, and we see it everywhere from BLM to Trans rights to Climate Change and beyond. I don’t deny any of those by the way, I do think many of the arguments are unrealistic though. That’s me actually digressing by the way, but it all ties in I think, and is relevant?
I do agree that in a way, Emily has been let down, in the sense that she was given false hope. BC’s initial reaction was to be ‘inclusive, kind’ and all the rest of it, before the science was fully understood. I think what’s emerged is that in some way equalising Trans female performance with that of cis women, is actually impossible in any really meaningful way, there are too many medical and physiological factors to consider. So then we are left with what is actually a philosophical and political argument, which is a totally different matter. And when push comes to shove, 50% of the population are female, and around 1% of the population (or at least a tiny amount) are Trans female. The latter cannot dictate to the former? I’d say that inherently, perhaps women tend to be more inclusive than men, but in this case they are fighting hard because there’s an inherent threat to their competitive sport. And I agree with them.
Vo2Maxi wrote:
Just a point of fact – I definitely did and I definitely can’t see the direct accusation of racism. I’m not denying she might have wanted people to infer that, or that she is indeed accusing them of “furthering genocide” against trans people. Could be my old eyes though!
This is a crie de coeur in my opinion – something out of desparation rather than an argument really.
OTOH we’re all capable of some high-falutin’ words about things we care deeply about:
(Apologies for the personal – it does have a ring to it.)
I don’t think that some kind of performance-equating is necessarily “impossible” – after all we’ve been making fairly abitrary categories and rules in sport since forever. I agree that at the moment “appeals to the science” are likely secondary and it is mostly a social / political discussion we’re having (for better or worse).
I’d certainly agree that the full implication of trans / non-binary etc. is very radical – at least in terms of what we take for granted currently. Just setting up a new category (trans) is a change – although of course there have been people not fitting in to the standard pattern since forever. Notions that “women” or “men” can each come in two sexes – or that someone we put in one category can completely move to the other – or that physical differences to do with sex are fundamentally unimportant or that the gender categories themselves can get in the bin… All these are massive challenges to current mainstream cultural assumptions. Some maybe contrary to some of our innate psychological category systems.
All at a time when – in a few places in the world – we have only recently started more critically examining issues which affect more people or are in some senses more salient e.g. sex or race discrimination. It’s early days.
Apologies, what she actually
Apologies, what she actually said was effectively the sport of cycling is too White and too Straight’.
I still stand by my comments though.
And worth noting, I’m a life member of BC (have been for over 30yrs) and for some time now, BC have made huge efforts to be inclusive for all, just look at their website, articles and their regular newsletters?
I’ve actually just read the whole of Emily’s Instagram piece and it’s even more hysterical and political than I thought. Of course, she takes great care to immediately say she’s NOT being hysterical, and it’s not she who is waging a culture war. She seems to think she can preempt that assessment but her writing speaks for itself.
Apparently we are a horrible country and she’s considering leaving. To go where? Where would you go for a more compassionate and liberal society Emma? The US? Some European country? You’ll get a shock. I think she needs to find some specialist commune living on a beach in the Far East to find her utopia, but of course that’ll be cliquey and go horribly wrong.
She cites attacks on her friends as proof that she won’t be here much longer. What attacks? Online? Ignore the idiotic haters. Sticks and stones etc. While they are deeply unpleasant, they are a relatively small minority?
Even what I am writing here would be considered hateful and nasty by Emma, and liable to lead to her early demise. Basically, anyone dho disagrees with Emma is hateful and nasty, and wants her dead. That is what we are dealing with. It’s like a very extreme example of a child at a supermarket checkout screaming for chocolate.
Vo2Maxi wrote:
I was also wondering about that. Not that I think the UK is a great example of toleration in this regard. However it may be one of the better ones of a globally terrible bunch. Witness the very recent Ugandan law changes on homosexuality.
Possibly somewhere else where she can race?
There is obviously a continuum from unpleasantness to abuse to physical violence but the statistics indicate that trans people are significantly more likely to be victims of crime and likely violent physical assault / sexual assault. Apparently in the US violent crime is four times as likely to be experienced by trans people. For England / Wales the overall crime rate (not just violent crime) is twice as much for trans people compared to general population. That’s based on the ONS crime survey statistics and apparently we can’t be more specific as they have said they aren’t releasing figures for violent offences by gender identity for various reasons.
I’m not agreeing with her statement completely. I’m just trying to understand where the statement is coming from – and also the objections.
I was aware that Trans are
I was aware that Trans are more likely to be subject to physical violence, and that’s abhorrent of course. It’s always been that way for Gays too of course. Or indeed, any ‘outliers’ in society, and the more visible that difference is, the more nastiness there’ll be. I don’t wish to downplay any of that.
But broadly, public sympathy and understanding is high, and there are laws against discrimination and police are keen to enforce. Most people go out of their way to be inclusive, to be basically nice.
Anyway, why is Cycling ‘too
Anyway, why is Cycling ‘too White’? And actually, is it?
3.5% of our population are black. If you saw 100 cyclists, if 4% were black, that’d be over-representation. I’d say in terms of sports, Asians are under-represented.
But why? Racism? That’s the immediate cry from many these days. Infact it has far more to do with what your family did, and what your mates do. And if neither of those are in a sport you’re interested in, then it’s up to YOU to take that leap of faith and join a sports club.
I well remember the first time I walked into a cycling clubroom and said I’d like to join, over 40yrs ago. I knew NO ONE there, and I had no history of the sport amongst family or friends. I was shy, and felt ‘other’. Very much so. I can see that as BAME the barrier might seem bigger, and one of those barriers would indeed be no one there looks like me. Is that anyone’s actual fault? Almost certainly not. Maybe YOU are the one who needs to be there, looking like you. But you’ll have to assume you won’t be met with racism. You probably won’t be, but you won’t find out until you try.
Again, I’m not going off-piste here, I’m responding to Emily’s diatribe.
There are loads of non white
There are loads of non white riders competing in BMX in the UK, just saying.
Great, and once there are a
Great, and once there are a few, others will follow. Everyone can do what they want in this country? Who’s stopping you?
I just get fed up with the utterly bogus argument that if there isn’t ‘proper representation’, there must inherently be racism.
50% of Premier League footballers are Black. Vastly over 3.5% of course. There are lots of role models for black kids and you can make a load of money and be a hero. Great. But when football is played by hugely bigger numbers than cycling, where are all the young black riders going to come from? I’m not saying there shouldn’t be more, I’m just challenging ludicrously misleading arguments.
Also consider, every big organisation like BC these days, has gone ‘corporate’. And when public money goes in (like Lottery funding) they become exposed to political pressures.
Vo2Maxi wrote:
But oddly 50% of MPs aren’t black? Of course, that would be a ridiculous argument However it is a fact that ethnic minorities are under-represented in parliament, the House of Lords and in local government (including the London Assembly)*. And (to pick a random one) teaching, especially head teachers. Or firemen **.
I’m not seeing your “not trying hard enough” or “everyone can be anything” arguments are so strong here.
Or perhaps – for cycling and football – are you saying that white folks aren’t trying hard enough?
I’m not denying that there can be sensible reasons for uneven distributions of different categories of people into different professions or areas of society. However denying the existence of (ongoing) discrimination or not even considering this as a reason is for those who don’t want to see.
Anyway, thanks – I’m going to bow out of this one for now anyway; we’re off away from the original topic plus that’s several minefields I’ve got into that I need to get out of.
* Exactly proportional representation might not be what you’d expect anyway given the details of the electoral process. Having said that things have changed markedly over the last 3 decades.
** Not doctors though – however that’s likely because we have specific recruitment policies for overseas health staff.
The BC policy has so much
The BC policy has so much spin on it you’ll get dizzy. I’ve got no idea what a fair solution looks like, but the new BC ‘policy’ put another way is “All trans people have to complete with men”. Calling it all ‘Open’ category doesn’t mean a thing. Bridges, York etc have a perfect right to call a spade a spade in relation to that.
True. But then the whole
True. But then the whole Trans thing is about slogans and ultra-precise wording and ‘specialness’, so in a way they are meeting that like for like?
Ultimately a Trans woman has a male body which she modifies to her own desires and needs, with drug treatment and/or surgery, or to comply with competitive sport regulations.
The latter has proven to be a complete minefield which has seriously placed women’s sport at risk. How on earth do you achieve a level playing field? I would say it’s damned near impossible, and so BC have retreated from trying to do so. Other ‘physical sports will no doubt follow.
I don’t mean any of this in an unkind or dismissive way, nor do I denigrate a Trans woman’s right to declare herself female because that’s 100% how she feels, how she NEEDS to feel. No Trans woman goes about this lightly.
espressodan wrote:
Which category do the trans men ride in? Actually, are there many trans men athletes? The news coverage always picks up on the trans women…
Another biological man
Another biological man presenting as a female is Tara Seplavy, deputy editor at Bicyling Magazine. Since ‘transitioning’ Seplavy now competes against females.
Why have you ‘put’ the ‘word’
Why have you ‘put’ the ‘word’ ‘transitioning’ in ‘scare quotes’?
(edit) Wait – I know why… 1 post, eh?