“Isn’t 8.5w/kg novice level on Zwift?”: Reaction to THAT virtual cheating story; Is this the safest cycling route in the UK?; British Cycling CEO merry-go-round continues; FDJ join the dark side; Vine goes Partridge + more on the live blog

63 thoughts on ““Isn’t 8.5w/kg novice level on Zwift?”: Reaction to THAT virtual cheating story; Is this the safest cycling route in the UK?; British Cycling CEO merry-go-round continues; FDJ join the dark side; Vine goes Partridge + more on the live blog”

1. Interestng, I’ll watch that

   Interestng, I’ll watch that with my elevenses.

   I’m trying to frame some questions that I hope can help me think about the difference between what I’m going pompously to call 2nd gen infra (like this – exists, smooth and largely segregated, without the errors with paint on roads, dumping into traffic etc), and 3rd gen infra (which I’m defining overall as being convenient enough compared to driving to get ordinary people out of their cars with no regrets).

   This is messy as I’m thinking aloud.

   1 – Routine use of detection loops (or several detection loops, or similar) to turn the traffic off when a person on a bike needs to cross so they don’t have to stop.

   2 – On a normal run a person on a bike will only have to stop very occasionally.

   3 – Fully accessible to all people on the complete zoo of types of bikes, and active travellers.

   4 – No interaction with motor vehicles where speed limits or speeds driven are above 20mph.

   5 – Limited conflict between people on bikes and pedestrians.

   6 – Safe and convenient handling of junctions. TBH I do not know in detail what I mean here, but safe cycling infra through the juntion is a key.

   7 – Pavement level crossings across side roads and for Toucan or Sparrow or Ptarmigan etc crossings as default.

   (any more telltales to add? Then I need to boil them down.)

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   • Not sure how the Dutch handle
     Not sure how the Dutch handle junctions but I suspect toucan crossings, set back from the junction so cars have somewhere to stop and let pedestrians/cyclists cross, are the solution. It avoids the need for separate lights for cyclists and allows them to cross safely regardless of the motorist lights (afterall why should the inherent danger of motor vehicles be used as an excuse to hold up safer forms of traffic?)

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     • Picking up from various

       Picking up from various articles over the years, and Not Just Bikes and similar, there are a lot of ways but they tend especially to be more intensively invested and use up to 3 detection loops to enable traffic to be turned off conveniently.

       I think here we have a ground in habit of not improving things once built, so the bugs don’t get worked out, which is why we are still buried in 30 and 40 year old barriers and blockages.

       There’s also a strange use of greenery as an excuse for not doing things well – contreting over the countryside to make bicycle paths !!!

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       • One other thing the Dutch do

         One other thing the Dutch do – they are (still) constantly upgrading.  Not just “renew the tarmac to fill in the potholes”.  It’s “the next time we’re here to do refurbishments we’ll apply all the changes in infra policy (e.g. cycle track upgrades) that have accumulated over the last n years – oh, and possibly get in some maintenace of the utilities too”.  The latter bit may be “cultural” – I think they’ve got quite different governance to do with land maintenance etc (but don’t understand the detail).

         On that – question: why does the UK have so many road maintenance issues? Clue – it’s not just “weather”…

         Lots of examples: https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/tag/before-and-after/

         I’m a bit in two minds about this.  It certainly works very well for cycling.  On the other hand the Dutch seem to be constantly looking at spaces (brown or greenfield) and saying thoughtfully “hmm… we could dig that all up and then put concrete, tarmac and brick down”.  So maybe not so good on the environmental front?  May work out better than the UK’s massive road-building followed by never-ending patching though?

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         • chrisonatrike wrote:

           I’m a bit in two minds about this.  It certainly works very well for cycling.  On the other hand the Dutch seem to be constantly looking at spaces (brown or greenfield) and saying thoughtfully “hmm… we could dig that all up and then put concrete, tarmac and brick down”.  So maybe not so good on the environmental front?  May work out better than the UK’s massive road-building followed by never-ending patching though?

           — chrisonatrike

           That is a very important point. One area where the UK (and our various planning and land categorisation systems) has been notably successful compared to similarly densely populated is imo in preserving a varied countryside, and a relatively speaking not built-over country.

           Our small grain planning system can be infuriating, but if you compare 12% of the NL has been covered by artificial surfaces ie hard landscape development, which compares with 7% in the UK. For England the number of 10%. For Germany, Denmark and Italy it is 7-8%.

           By comparison, around 40% of our country’s area is in protected areas of some sort.

           There’s a metric hidden inside there for population per developed area, which would I think be interesting.

           https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/wdn-20180523-1#:~:text=Almost%20a%20quarter%20(23.7%25),%25)%20and%20Germany%20(7.4%25).
           https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/land-use-in-england-2022/land-use-statistics-england-2022#:~:text=England%20has%20a%20land%20area,being%20'built%2Dup‘.

         • True – although there’s a bit

           True – although there’s a bit of “preserved by being very poor, owned by toffs, or both!”

           I’m not sure it’s entirely something to be proud of.  Much is “accident of history” and England (and Scotland for that matter) have highly uneven distribution of population.  That’s true even in NL – if you go to the Northeast it’s much sparser (used to be where they strip-mined peat).

           The UK has its fair share of sprawling developments (e.g. low-density suburban) – although it’s much better than parts of where we took some ideas from (US).  Away from urban areas the UK has “splendid countryside” but very often now no “life”.  People “have to” drive to access anything – medical care, schools, shops, social life… This urbanisation of course dates from long before cars (see e.g. William Cobbet!) but motor transport has hugely accellerated and magnified it.

           This may be yet another reason for the retention of cycling in NL – you could get to a “bigger town” from many places by bike.  In the UK?  More of a mission.

           I don’t have answers for the countryside.  I love it, and I’m not a “city person”.  However I recognise I depend on the urban facilities and – with a couple of exceptions – have lived on the fringes of large towns or cities all of my life.  It’s a theme for NotJustBikes, who I think has a good take on what makes a good (and sustainable) urban area [1] [2].  Which would serve the bulk of the UK population.

         • The town to bigger town is a

           The town to bigger town is a very good point.

           One on my wish list is a direct and flat cycle route from where I live (consider Kings Mill District Hospital) to Nottingham, which is 18 miles. It gets OK about 1/3 way there, but to get to the start point (Newstead Station) is a sod – requiring some cycling on narrow A-roads, or a major diversion and lots of paths.

           I know one or two brave souls who commute by bike, but not many.

           We have light rail. But still need a cycle route.

         • Agree again. But for me that
           Agree again. And again I’m lucky that some of this appears near me (eg. Edinburgh to South Queensferry).

           Focusing on that kind of connectivity seems to come at a more advanced stage of infra eg. more like 4th generation infra where the UK is somewhere between nothing, 0th and 1st (with occasional 2nd gen now appearing; Cambridge looks interesting).

           The site below has examples and criteria. Although they’ve got London in there! I’ve not visited and “great for the UK” I’m sure but I wouldn’t put that anywhere near the Dutch (or even Danish) category – from what’s visible on the internet.

           https://ecf.com/what-we-do/urban-mobility/fast-cycling-routes

           This is more what I’d hope for (one for the next generation…)
           https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2022/07/20/the-finished-f50-cycle-route-from-oss-to-uden/

           Note: pleasant environment (you can have a conversation!), people riding side-by-side (or in a three), kids riding without adults, mobility vehicles, the number of traffic lights (were there any?), how many times he needed to stop (any?), number of crossings of main road (a couple but the roads were not busy enough to need traffic lights). In addition the social safety in the urban parts, directness of the route, cars not overtaking on shared streets…

   • Indeed. I’m very pleased to
     Indeed. I’m very pleased to see more give ways for junctions across a cycle lane, giving cyclists priory (though that still relies on car drivers to see and care about it, and sometimes does more harm than good as it creates a false sense of safety), but I still wouldn’t use the cycle lane. Using the road would be loads quicker. Those traffic lights and beg buttons can f right off.

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     • I’ve thought about this a bit

       I’ve thought about this a bit and I think it’s two things: first motor traffic has to be managed.  If there’s too much of it or it’s travelling too fast whatever you do will be at best mediocre.

       Secondly I think David Hembrow has it right.  His view is that the best unsignalised junctions are those which actually put responsibility for the cyclist’s safety back in the hands of the cyclist.  His article shows roundabouts but the principle is general.  He’s going against the conventional view in NL that e.g. urban roundabouts should have priority for cyclists but he apparently has done the numbers. (Rural roundabouts in NL do have priority for motor vehicles as standard).

       It took me a while to get.  And yes – “priority for cycling” does have a place.  So I’m for “continuous footway / cycle way” across minor side roads.

       Again – note that this only works if you have already tamed the traffic.  Just dumping one in many places in the UK now – without major changes to exising roads – would likely be a bad idea.

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   • The ever-thoughtful Robert

     The ever-thoughtful Robert Weetman has a good set of set of cycle infra quality measures here.  Really simple idea but with some subtlety too.  He’s also got a set of articles comparing different aspects of current UK, Copenhagen and NL.  These are very detailed and lengthy!  At the end of these however he does try to distil some more general principles of the what and why.  Again see his site but the most obvious comparison series starts here.

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   • For your 3rd gen concept I

     For your 3rd gen concept I think the general principle would be something like this:  We recognise cycling exists (0th – 1st gen – most of UK) and we’re no longer just squeezing bikes “where we can” into the existing infra (90% for motor traffic and what’s left for everyone else).  Cycling is a mode of transport that people already use in visible numbers and we want to promote it further.  We have realised it needs its own separate space in many instances and there needs to be a genuine network (2nd gen).  Further we realise that to achieve this we need to seriously change things to tame motor traffic – just “cycling infra” alone is not enough.  We still need cycle infra though and it needs to be very clear where this space is and what it’s for.  It should be extremely easy to understand and use: safe, attractive and convenient enough for the general public.  From 8-80 for all types of people.  Humans want spaces they can be social in while travelling and where they feel relaxed (3rd gen).

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     • I rabbited away last week

       I rabbited away last week about our local funded schemes under the wotsit-called Covid money – Active Travel Fund?

       I had a call back from our local project manager for 2 of the schemes, for whom I left a message last week. He seems very engaged, and I’ll be putting some solid feedback in over the weekend – including some potential further links based on my local knowledge which will hoepfully add a lot of vaue for very little cost. In particular they are within 300m of new cycle track of creating a complete safe route to our local district hospital from a community of 30k people.

       The 2 week consulation periods seem to work exactly like Planning, in that there is a defined period but they take everything they hear into account even after the period.

       They have now opened consultation on the next period.

       I have not had a positive response to my suggestion for bicycle detection loops to turn off the traffic everywhere :-), but I think there is much potential. It’s going to be effing hard work though in a short period – bye bye weekend.

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     • To get out of gen 0, having
       To get out of gen 0, having noted a tweet yesterday, we need to see a road with cars parked both sides leaving 1.5 lanes for two way traffic as a total failure, not just for cyclists but for cars. That car parking comes above free safe movement for cyclists and for cars says everything about how car ownership has destroyed mobility.

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2. I took a break from Zwift
   I took a break from Zwift (while still paying the Zwift tax). On return, the number of riders doing bullshit powers up climbs is off the scale. Every climb at least one suspiciously consistent 5+ W/kg rider slides by. The platform is just the twitter of cycling, some good, some terrible.

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   • espressodan wrote:

     The platform is just the twitter of cycling, some good, some terrible.

     — espressodan

     Also … just like real life then. 

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3. Manchester looks fabulous but

   Manchester looks fabulous but got to give a shout out for my beloved hometown where one can now ride 14km all on totally segregated paths from Lancaster Gate at the NW corner of Hyde Park all the way to Limehouse in the east without once setting tyre on a shared road except to cross them.

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   • Ooh bragging time!  London

     Ooh bragging time!  London certainly has more on-street provision but – by historical accident – the North Edinburgh path network means I can cross one road and access a mini network where there are altogether something like 7-8 miles of paved, lit paths which don’t cross or use a single road.  No stopping, no traffic lights, no motor vehicles!

     The big issue is that although this extends a lot further via “quiet streets” and fairly friendly infra the good sub-sections are not all linked and there is a big gap in the middle.

     If you’re prepared to put up with some cars and a bit of learning routes Edinburgh can work very well for a cyclist accustomed to the normal UK rubbish (where it exists at all).  Still 1st generation infra I’d say though, with growing patches of 2nd gen.

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     • chrisonatrike wrote:

       Ooh bragging time!  London certainly has more on-street provision but – by historical accident – the North Edinburgh path network means I can cross one road and access a mini network where there are altogether something like 7-8 miles of paved, lit paths which don’t cross or use a single road.  No stopping, no traffic lights, no motor vehicles!

       — chrisonatrike

       I’ve also found all my needs for broken glass, poorly-aimed fireworks and better-aimed gobbing fully satisfied by that network (although perhaps this is reducing). And therefore I tend not to use the paths on the few occasions I’m over that way from sun-kissed Portobello.

       How can we get to a point where cycling infrastructure is safe from both vehicles and local idiots, given where we start from culturally?

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       • TheBillder wrote:

         I’ve also found all my needs for broken glass, poorly-aimed fireworks and better-aimed gobbing fully satisfied by that network (although perhaps this is reducing).
         And therefore I tend not to use the paths on the few occasions I’m over that way from sun-kissed Portobello.

         — TheBillder

         There’s truth to that but if you swap fireworks for drinks thrown at me I’ve had about the same on the roads. Certainly more “I’m going to die” moments.

         Plus I used to stay in Muirhouse so maybe I got used to certain things…

         Porty – which ought to be a great place to get cycling going – seems “car culture” to me. Or maybe that’s just the through traffic. The prom is fine but too many people walking for a “route”, main streets are a big ol’ snarl-up of motor traffic, with the small side- streets clogged with parking. If passing I’m probably there at the weekend though.

         How can we get to a point where cycling infrastructure is safe from both vehicles and local idiots, given where we start from culturally?

         — TheBillder

         Well as you’ve noted the paths are at least used by local idiots so that is keeping them safe. And off the road. Sometimes…

         The paths are still great for me (maybe I like the road less than I think? ). I think they make Edinburgh very complacent *. Remove that inheritance and the rest is at best average **. I’ve seen the plans, there is no urgency there and I’m not seeing the idea of “network” front and centre. Home cycle parking is now recognised as important, not sure it’s there for destinations.

         * The new map boards on the paths are planting the idea of turning them into tram lines – because that’s “modern … very quiet … no emissions … fast … predicatable journey times”. Some of them *really* don’t get or like cycling!

         ** With a nod to the East- West cycle path – possibly.

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       • Also – from Porty to town –
         Also – from Porty to town – for “the average UK cyclist” this might seem great, there are THREE ways with off-main-carriageway or cycle lanes, some with protection. Luxury! But compare to driving and it’s a real magical mystery tour where you have to dodge about to link up bits of infra and much feels “grotty”.

         South – Innocent railway path: that’s good albeit maybe lacking “social safety” and the looong overpass from St Mark’s Place is very useful (if a bit tired and slightly inconvenient to cycle up to). But then you’ve either got to navigate the Christians or Magdalens to the path at Bingham or cycle-lane-it beside the big roads through Willowbrae and Meadowbank. Where road gets busy and lumpy. The middle way (via eg Fishwives – more “not socially safe” magical mystery tour) has some genuine beside road cycle path – until you reach the same point. North is probably the most complete, (if the prom isn’t busy…) you only have to cross A199 to connect to Leith links or the loop via Lochend.

         But most of that feels like “look here’s some unused (and unloved) space, if someone wants to make a path we won’t stand in their way” or “we can paint a narrow lane next to this very wide lane without impeding traffic, so…”

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   • * Except when something Royal

     * Except when something Royal is happening and they close the route through the parks   

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4. > Someone give the FDJ video

   > Someone give the FDJ video editor a raise

   That is indeed a bang-up job of taking mundane footage and making it impactful. Someone slaved over a hot workstation on that one.

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5. Is this the safest cycling

   Is this the safest cycling route in the UK?

   If you count safe as ‘no cars’ then Birmingham’s 35 miles of canal path beats that.

   If you count safe as ‘no knife wielding bike robbers’ then that’s another story.

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   • Forgetting the second part, I

     Forgetting the second part, I would also argue quiet a few areas are not a safe cycling route with narrow tunnels, steps with no cycle provision, very slippy paving stones, radar gates, overgrown areas and still not safe from cars. 

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     • I thought even with all the

       I thought even with all the other problems at least there are no cars but it seems dangerous drivers get everywhere!

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   • I tried cycling into

     I tried cycling into Birmingham City centre from Kingsbury, a couple of times. But on a road bike and cleated in, I didnt enjoy it. The bridges, with their very slippery went wet bricks and low walls were a bit scary for me.
     I, personally,  felt safer on the Tyburn road. 

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     • I’ve done a ride from

       I’ve done a ride from Lichfield to Brum along that canal. TBF, from about Wiggins Hill the paths are paved and minimal issues until Spaghetti. Then you have the 13(?) uphill locks, the thin sidings bridges with at least one (usually) closed radar gate at the bottom of it, the slippy cobbled bridge at the top of the junction, then the slippy brickwork all along to Brindley. Definitely needs a MTB / Gravel / CX bike for some of it. 

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     • Jules59 wrote:

       felt safer on the Tyburn road. 

       — Jules59

       WOW, you really hated the canal then, although I understand if it was wet or freezing and if the (long gone) Tyburn road bus lane was in operation at the time.

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6. Also like to shout out Milton

   Also like to shout out Milton Keynes with miles of segregated infrastructure enabling us to travel safely throughout the city. 

   It still makes f-all difference to people who think it’s ok to jump in the car and drive a mile into work. I was viewed as some kind of freak (quite possibly true) when I cycled the 2.5 miles into the station every day. 

   With this experience, personally I don’t think the ‘build it and they will use it’ statement is true. 

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   • With this experience,

     With this experience, personally I don’t think the ‘build it and they will use it’ statement is true

     Neither do I- you have to force people out of cars

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     • wtjs wrote:

       you have to force people out of cars

       — wtjs

       This is correct – but largely unsayable for officials and politicians.

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       • Dnnnnnn wrote:

         you have to force people out of cars

         — Dnnnnnn

         This is correct – but largely unsayable for officials and politicians.

         — wtjs

         Does that not need to be framed as “making sure that travelling by cycle is *more* convenient”?

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         • Some believe that the “C word

           Some believe that the “C word” is off-limits as it turns people off and shuts down many conversations.  In general anything framing a change as a loss or restriction is out as well.

           So we have the paradox where you’re needing to advertise something which improves cycling and reduces space, speed or convenience for motor traffic without mentioning either bikes or cars!

           So it’s “find an angle involving kids”.  Or “isn’t it nice to go somewhere you can hear the birds and don’t feel rushed”.  Or “safer for old folks”.  Something that most people will have some emotional connection to which is a positive.

           This is the “difficult UK reality”.  Although cycling is just beginning to come out from under cover – albeit often to disapproval.

   • It’s a good “test case”.

     It’s a good “test case”.

     You’ve presented the “surface view” correctly.  The details are worth digging into though e.g. [1] and also Stevenage [2] [3].

     A brief summary would be “they built it – but they built it easier and more pleasant for driving and advertised it as a place for drivers at a time when driving was a very aspirational thing…  And the drivers came.

     Or as Carlton Reid has it – where driving is easy, Brits drive.

     Luckily, cycles are not cars.  They have disadvantages but also advantages when compared to cars (quiet, space-efficient, as human-friendly as walking given good infra, quicker to get going…) If you pay attention to making it easy for people to benefit from these positive qualities of cycling and don’t put everything second to driving, people cycle.  There are even examples of places successfully starting to reverse a very car-centric policy (like the UK’s).

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     • chrisonatrike wrote:

       You’ve presented the “surface view” correctly.  The details are worth digging into though e.g. [1] and also Stevenage [2] [3].

       A brief summary would be “they built it – but they built it easier and more pleasant for driving and advertised it as a place for drivers at a time when driving was a very aspirational thing…  And the drivers came.

       Or as Carlton Reid has it – where driving is easy, Brits drive.

       — chrisonatrike

       I haven’t read all of your paper 1 because it’s rubbish as well as being over 10 years old and out of date. 

       Most Redways are in fact well away from the road network and give a completely different view of the city – his point seems to revolve around the fact that they are side by side with busy dual carriageways when they’re really not. Some are certainly but not in the main. In addition, traffic has increased massively since 2010, it is significantly more pleasant to cycle around MK than to sit in a traffic jam, better scenery, no cars etc etc. At rush hour it is also much faster too. 

       Outside of rush hour it is indeed easier to drive and the road network is very good. What we also need, as has been pointed out before, is a city wide educational programme to encourage use. We are getting there, Lime bikes and scooters make it a doddle to nip around, need more though. To my shame, both my daughter and step daughter refuse to even consider another mode of transport. My step-daughter used to get in her car to drive less than a mile to work – she has grown up watching me go out on the bike and commute in, I encourage her to think about alternatives but it’s like talking to a wall. How can that behaviour be influenced?

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       • That appraisal of MK Redways

         That appraisal of MK Redways [1] is spot on in my opinion and still holds true today.

         The key tenet, that it’s so easy to drive in MK that nobody bothers cycling, despite segregated infrastructure (of debatable quality), is something I agree with.

         Yes, you can cycle around MK largely on completely segregated infrastructure, but even at rush hour, you would still be quicker in a car. Add that to the redway network sometimes feeling a bit of a ‘muggers alley’, with many broken glass strewn underpasses and paths that are secluded. It’s not a great proposition for many people.

         The multiple level changes, give-ways at road crossings, sharp 90 degree unsighted bends and cycle paths that disappear as soon as you reach the shopping centre, don’t make it a brilliant cycling experience – even when you know where you are going, which can be difficult as it’s not well signposted.

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         • HoarseMann wrote:

           Yes, you can cycle around MK largely on completely segregated infrastructure, but even at rush hour, you would still be quicker in a car. Add that to the redway network sometimes feeling a bit of a ‘muggers alley’, with many broken glass strewn underpasses and paths that are secluded. It’s not a great proposition for many people.

           The multiple level changes, give-ways at road crossings, sharp 90 degree unsighted bends and cycle paths that disappear as soon as you reach the shopping centre, don’t make it a brilliant cycling experience – even when you know where you are going, which can be difficult as it’s not well signposted.

           — HoarseMann

           At rush hour that statement isn’t true – In my case it was quicker to cycle from the station 2.5 miles home. In my step daughter’s example it would have taken her longer to get out of the car park. 

           I agree that some of the intersections with roads are extremly annoying and that overall they are poorly maintained. I’m certainly not saying it’s perfect but it’s a whole lot better than most and it’s already built and available. 

           Maybe – if more people were encouraged to use it the local council would improve things. 

         • Hmm… “encourage” how though

           Hmm… “encourage” how though?  All we’ve heard from government / local authorities for decades (when they mention it) is that they’re all for “encouraging” cycling.  Edinburgh regularly puts up notice boards and adverts “encouraging” people all over the place.  I think we can surmise that kind of “encouragement” is minimally effective.  Or at least “not sufficient” without something else.

           Putting in a fairly small amount of fairly minimal / tame “protection” for both cycling and walking during the Covid period though?  That didn’t create “bike boom” but it very definitely got people’s attention.  Unfortunately often negative – but it meant that a conversation started.  Notice was served if you like – “we cannot go on as before – we will be changing the roads and this time some of them will get smaller“.

           Stick is needed as well as carrot (but the carrot should be bigger!)

           A thought experiment: if the redways were a bit wider (so you could fit tiny cars on them) and the roads were much narrower (but still wide enough to easily cycle two-abreast in either direction) AND there were cycle parking all over the place (if there isn’t already) AND the cars had to give way to cyclists in most places … would the same number of people drive into the centre of MK?  If they had to use the redways in their cars?  This ignores the “needing to go up and down” factor the cyclists experience of course so it’s still better for the cars in that respect!  I’m sure some clearly would because they’re going further by car.  But my bet is “lots more people would cycle”.  What’s yours?

         • Yes, that was more of a

           Yes, that was more of a general statement, that overall, the traffic volumes in MK mean that driving at rush hour is still quicker than cycling. In your specific cases, obviously not!

           The grid network generally allows for excellent dispersal of motorised traffic jams, but there are a few ‘pinch points’ where a barrier has to be traversed and traffic is funnelled into a few crossing points – particularly trying to cross the M1 to the north or the A5 to the south.

           The disused railway line to the north of the town city, that links Newport Pagnall to Wolverton is particularly good for cycling, as can be the route following the canal.

           As for new infrastructure – the snazzy new bridge at Campbell Wharf is quite nice (still shared use though!)… https://www.knightarchitects.co.uk/bridges/campbell-wharf-bridge

       • Gimpl wrote:

         I haven’t read all of your paper 1 because it’s rubbish as well as being over 20 years old and out of date.

         — Gimpl

         Don’t be shy, say what you really think!  Local knowledge is good – I haven’t been there!

         Maybe I should have pointed you to the middle bit.  His specific observations about MK are that:

         The cycle paths, or ‘Redways’, as they eventually turned out to be, are doubly compromised, not just because cycling and walking were afterthoughts to the central design of Milton Keynes – a network permitting fast and smooth motor vehicle journeys across the town – but also because they themselves are a poor adaption of routes which were initially designed solely for pedestrians.

         — AsEasyAsRidingABike

         So can you tell me – have they rebuilt the place?  Is there a bunch of new infra?  It looks similar on streetview from a year or so back.  I also watched Alexei Sayle (who he?) cycling about the place a bit more recently.

         From the pictures I’ve seen it looks like – for example – the paths have quite a few ups and downs.  So often you’re below the level of a road and then have to go back up to road level.  Being below the land level isn’t necessarily a bad thing but if you have to keep going up and down (and gradients are steep) that is a turn-off.  It can also make navigation / orientation a bit more fiddly (although you quickly learn).

         Do the Redways feel safe to people?   You say:

         Most Redways are in fact well away from the road network and give a completely different view of the city

         — Gimpl

         That can be nice – and is similar to the paths I use in Edinburgh which are often in cuttings as they’re former railway lines.  However though I personally have no problems with them some women say they don’t feel safe there at nights.  They’re “too quiet” – they’re not overlooked by any buildings and there can be “no escape route” for sections of several hundred metres.

         Other notes – which I’d welcome comment on:

         Apparently the routes also switch from one side of a road to the other multiple times – making the route longer also.

         The at-grade junction treatments – those junctions where you are not pedalling up and down steep gradients to get under or over a flat road – are very poor. Naturally enough you have to yield to motor traffic, which is not necessarily a problem, but considerable danger is involved.

         — AsEasyAsRidingABike

         It looks like an extremely easy and convenient place to drive in.  Is that true?  How easy is it to cycle to the station from e.g. the east?  It certainly looks very convenient to get there directly with a car…

         I note you say:

         Outside of rush hour it is indeed easier to drive and the road network is very good. … both my daughter and step daughter refuse to even consider another mode of transport. My step-daughter used to get in her car to drive less than a mile to work – she has grown up watching me go out on the bike …

         — Gimpl

         Again, there is some “culture” (and “doing what everyone else does”).  I think if it were really easier to go by bike then… people would?  Yes – people do follow expensive, unpleasant and difficult “fashions” (e.g. where something is prestigious) but in general they can be convinced if something is “more convenient”.

         This all suggests to me that – as it was back in the day – it’s still much more convenient to use a car.  Especially once you already have a car!

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         • Yes – much has been improved

           Yes – much has been improved since this article – there is even reference to it in the comments section. 

           MK is much maligned – you really do have to live here to appreciate it. Also, yes, driving outside of rush hour, as I mentioned, is very easy. 

           I watched the Alexei Sayle video with much sadness, riding around the business district and centre was not a good advert – I was willing him to turn at one of the junctions he came to and he would have had a completely different experience. 

           There are some annoying issues, up and down at junctions, poor lighting in places and poor conditions. Again, as the article and comments note – it’s much better than most.

         • Thanks for the update!

           Thanks for the update!

           I agree – Sayle clearly wasn’t there to demonstrate the fullness of the network.  However I think this has uncovered one point:  maybe it’s better cycling around the centre than in some other UK places.  But if it’s not good cycling around the centre, people aren’t going to cycle there.  And likely then won’t bother cycling in at all.

           In the same way, Edinburgh works very well for me in terms of cycling.  Best place I’ve lived in the UK in that respect (though York wasn’t too bad either).  I’d happily recommend it to other cyclists.  However getting around, into or through the city centre is not great on bike.  And overall most people don’t cycle and most short trips aren’t cycled.

           Edinburgh isn’t even a great place to drive in.  Lots of people take the bus – even though it’s not too hard to be faster on a bike than a bus at busy times.  But plenty still drive – particularly once you’re out of the centre.  It’s “not too bad” – even though the bypass at rush hour – or getting to or from it – can be dire.  You just get in your car, put some tunes on, or call a friend, and follow the sat nav…

           I’ve ended up fitting some of my routines round the cycle mini-network.  Yes – people do that with other modes.  But for cycling it’s just not convenient if you live in some places in and around the city or have to make some trips.  Or at least – less convenient than driving or the bus.

   • I know what you mean but I

     I know what you mean but I saw this the other day which is a bit more positive for the future, hopefully it stays that way.

     https://twitter.com/activetraveleng/status/1598340908419776521

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7. Slippy out there folks

   Slippy out there folks

   https://twitter.com/NottingTom/status/1600985611326095361

   “This is late in the day but maybe 1 or 2 will see it A3 West Hill into A205 Upper Richmond Road was icy as heck this morning eastbound Road glistening wet on way home at 6″

    

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8. I make that 11km with

   I make that 11km with something like 35-40 sets of traffic light stops or potential stops that I counted, which is one every 300m, though it was too quick to work out in detail. And a fair bit of it is not segregated – so cycle lanes, including painted lanes, rather than cycletracks.

   By the typology in my other comment it is not yet 2nd gen, so more like gen 1.5 – 1.75. Much improvement; much more to do.

   However, 18-19kph is a decent average speed = 11.5 mph approx.

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   • Ha ! Watching the full vid

     Ha ! Watching the full vid and it’s an E-bike .

     Nice to see that the average is still similar to a pushbike.

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     • eBikes (legal ones) are

       eBikes (legal ones) are limited so they are not that fast. 26kph max with assist and then the motor cuts out. Their advantage is they carry more and can accelerate faster (depending on the motor) and they are ‘easier’ or less strenuous to cycle. 

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       • Average was 18-19kph.

         Average was 18-19kph.

         Chap runs an e-Cargo-Bike delivery company.

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9. Been following Justin &

   Been following Justin & Francis’s journey since they started (I admit it, I quite like Francis’ Youtube channel) – it’s for a great cause & the daily video updates are well worth it – Mrs Fandango (non-cyclist) has been hooked too.

   You have to love Justin cam.

   Great job both of you!

    

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   • Totally agree. Justin cam is

     Totally agree. Justin cam is still funny no matter how many times you see it and the pair of them seem to be having a great time.

     My non-cycling other half also enjoys it.

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   • I’ve been enjoying Francis’s

     I’ve been enjoying Francis’s channel for a couple of years now, and this is a great series. I’d have loved to join them for a day, but the closest their route passes to me is about 700 miles away.

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10. Run Away !

    Run Away !

    https://twitter.com/JMcserk/status/1600548587737608193

    “This close pass @OpCrackdown decided wasn’t close enough to be prosecuted or even a warning letter? This driver is clearly a danger to everyone using the roads, using their vehicle like a weapon.”

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    • I know some on here will be

      I know some on here will be defending the drivers actions because the cyclist had the temerity to:-

      • Not move out the way.
      • Tap the side of the vehicle.

      However the second act just shows how close the massive 4×4 was to the cyclist. Surely that shows to Sussex the pass was too close.

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      • the second act just shows how
        the second act just shows how close the massive 4×4 was to the cyclist
        I won’t display them yet again, but the closeness of the massive Sainsbury’s 44 tonner and the multiple Stagecoach double-deckers was such it was impossible to get closer without hitting me. I am always desperately concentrating on not allowing the bars to twist me under the bus- police response nil. As far as the police expletive – deleteds are concerned, if the whingeing cyclist hasn’t even been seriously injured then he should think himself lucky and stop complaining. They think a close pass does not exist.

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    • hirsute wrote:

      This driver is clearly a danger to everyone using the roads, using their vehicle like a weapon.”

      — hirsuteWould the driver of R22GKR have reconsidered his aggression if he emerged from his vehicle to discover that the the cyclist owned a lethal weapon?

      Though one can imagine that Sussex police would use it as an opportunity to ransack the cyclist’s house within the hour.

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    • I just wish he had a rear

      I just wish he had a rear camerma; I’m just imagining someone like that other famous youtube video chasing after him, throwing a kick then going head over heals 😉 

      On a more serious note whilst I wouldn’t have tapped on the truck my self (I probably wouln’t have had the skill to and remain upright), it shouldn’t have mattered it was still an aggressive/dangerous overtake by a driver who shouln’t be on the road 🙁

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    • Perfect storm there: Ford

      Perfect storm there: Ford Ranger with nothing on the flatbed and suspiciously clean – most likely bought as a tax dodge (scandalous that it’s allowed); personalised prat plate; Sussex driver. Each one a red flag, in combo a veritable Communist Party rally of ’em.

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      • This will become more regular

        Pick-up truck close passes are about to become more regular . . . . . . . .

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    • “This close pass @OpCrackdown

      “This close pass @OpCrackdown decided wasn’t close enough to be prosecuted or even a warning letter? This driver is clearly a danger to everyone using the roads, using their vehicle like a weapon.”

      I couldn’t view this yesterday, but I’ve seen it now! Sussex Police must have been in training at a secret base somewhere in Lancashire. Extreme psycho driver in classic nutter vehicle, but no action. Even Lancashire Constabulary claimed to ‘have had a word’ with nutter BMW driver who threatened to ‘fucking flatten’ me and ‘you will be knocked off!’

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11. So British Cycling lose

    So British Cycling lose another career sports administrator from a senior position. One gets the feeling that BC are a convenient resting place on the greasy pole to the top. Let’s hope the new CEO is capable, competent with a genuine passion for cycling. They will need all of that and more, as the current leadership are clearly not very good.

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12. I received something

    I received something completely unexpected in the post this week, my 25 year CTC badge. Not CUK mind, though it was from them, but old school CTC.

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    • my 25 year CTC badge

      my 25 year CTC badge

      A worthy and undoubtedly warranted honour!

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