Lorry driver who shared footage of filtering cyclists says he'd like to see them invited on 'ride-alongs' to learn about blind spots

hirsute wrote:

... On the other hand lorries are clearly not suited to these dense environments and cyclists have been killed unnecessarily - ...

There: thats the point.  HGVs are *not* suited to a dense urban environment - TBH, if their blind spots are so bad then they should not be sharing the roads with anything smaller than them!

What we really need for long distance freight transport is some sort of dedicated network for carrying freight, where the vehicles are not sharing their environment with something smaller than them and don't have to worry about manoeuvering.  We could call them, "railways".

That final mile, or whatever you want to call it, could be dealt with by much smaller vehicles, which don't have these blind spots (just dumb drivers, but we can fix that).

brooksby wrote:

hirsute wrote:

... On the other hand lorries are clearly not suited to these dense environments and cyclists have been killed unnecessarily - ...

There: thats the point.  HGVs are *not* suited to a dense urban environment - TBH, if their blind spots are so bad then they should not be sharing the roads with anything smaller than them!

What we really need for long distance freight transport is some sort of dedicated network for carrying freight, where the vehicles are not sharing their environment with something smaller than them and don't have to worry about manoeuvering.  We could call them, "railways".

That final mile, or whatever you want to call it, could be dealt with by much smaller vehicles, which don't have these blind spots (just dumb drivers, but we can fix that).

Ah yes good idea every cyclists friend, the van driver! lets get more delivery vans in cities, they are far more considerate to other road users.

peted76 wrote:

brooksby wrote:

hirsute wrote:

... On the other hand lorries are clearly not suited to these dense environments and cyclists have been killed unnecessarily - ...

There: thats the point.  HGVs are *not* suited to a dense urban environment - TBH, if their blind spots are so bad then they should not be sharing the roads with anything smaller than them!

What we really need for long distance freight transport is some sort of dedicated network for carrying freight, where the vehicles are not sharing their environment with something smaller than them and don't have to worry about manoeuvering.  We could call them, "railways".

That final mile, or whatever you want to call it, could be dealt with by much smaller vehicles, which don't have these blind spots (just dumb drivers, but we can fix that).

Ah yes good idea every cyclists friend, the van driver! lets get more delivery vans in cities, they are far more considerate to other road users.

I was looking at it from the pov of "removing HGVs", to be honest.

And, the smaller vans *don't* have the blind spots and are therefore less dangerous (if we do something about the twunts behind the wheel).

If long distance freight was carried by train instead of HGVs, how would you suggest then getting it from that depot to the actual shops or businesses?  Smaller vehicles, with better regulation and possibly with electric motors, seems reasonable IMO.

brooksby wrote:

how would you suggest then getting it from that depot to the actual shops or businesses?

Cargo bike!

hirsute wrote:

I'm not sure what to make of all this. One of the riders did not do well on hazard perception and should have realised the driver would move forward when traffic ahead was moving, so going up the inside was not a good choice. On the other hand lorries are clearly not suited to these dense environments and cyclists have been killed unnecessarily - there was that one at the end of last year where the cyclist was dragged under a tipper truck as the driver had not seen the cyclist had come off on the very muddy road.

I'm pretty sure the technology exists to prevent accidents like this.

Parking sensors are activated automatically when putting a vehicle into reverse.  Wouldn't it be possible for ones on trucks to be activated whenever the handbrake is released or the footbrake released after being held down for more than a few seconds?

srchar wrote:

All I'm getting from the HGV drivers posting in this thread is that such vehicles fail, on a very basic level, to meet a design standard that is sufficient for them to mix with other road users without posing a lethal threat.

I mean, if these blind spots are as big as made out, drivers plain can't see enough to operate the vehicle safely in dense traffic, no matter how skilled.

The irony to me is that he was able to "raise awareness" of these issues by the use of technology. The same technology that could be used to eliminate said blind spots...

I do try to laugh about it*, but I can never get over the vehicles that have the cyclists stay back or similar stickers right next to the sticker warning about recording cameras.

Haulage and other firms running these vehicles apparently find the cash to install cameras where the purpose is to exonerate them in the event of a collision, yet apparently installing similar cameras for safety purposes would be far too expensive. 

It's been said many times, but in any other area of work, the HS&E would rightly have a fit if reasonable and proportionate action was not taken to address identified and serious safety issues. If 1 driver can't monitor the vehicle and it's surroundings safely (whether with mirrors, cameras, whatever) then have a second person as a look out. Why is this not mandatory in any urban/built up enviroment?

The simple fact is that society has decided that the economic interest of commerical companies to run HGVs pretty much as cheaply as possible outweighs safety. And yes, I know I'm preaching to the choir, and I know it'll not change anytime soon. But it should. 

* where I reach my limit are the transits and even smaller vans with those cyclists stay back stickers...

burtthebike wrote:

The dash cam is a fixed view device, showing only the view from the windscreen; the driver has mirrors and can move his head and eyes, so the footage is extremely misleading.  All the cyclists featured have lights, and if the driver couldn't see them in his mirrors, then the fault is his for not having properly adjusted mirrors.

The real question is why such dangerous vehicles are allowed on the road when they are clearly not safe.

I am a cyclist, I am a car driver, I am Motorcyclist, I am a HGV Class 1 driver, I am also a Senior Observer with IAM Roadsmart, I have seen utter madness in all forms of driving over my years and this includes lots of HGV drivers, but I also see stupidity by cyclists in and around HGV's, I have 9 mirrors on my cab and even with 9 there are blind spots.

You clearly have never driven a HGV yet you are quick to lay fault, there is absolutely no doubt that some HGV accidents have been caused by negligence of the driver, but there are so many that could of been avoided, we all teach our kids how to cross the road, even when the pelican crossing lights go green we teach our kids to check the vehicles have stopped before stepping out, but god forbid you get on a bike, then it is OK to ride up the inside of a HGV turning left, it is everybody elses fault, we need some perspective and balance, even on a cycling forum.

HGV drivers have to be so careful, they are in control of a death machine, but also please please  fellow cyclists, do not put yourself in danger, pick your moment to undertake carefully, we are constantly watching close overtake video's on this web site, almost all of them are because drivers are impatient and overtake when the road isn't clear, so lets not fall foul of the same impatience by riding up the inside of a HGV or running red lights., just wait !

bigbiker101 wrote:

HGV drivers have to be so careful, they are in control of a death machine, but also please please  fellow cyclists, do not put yourself in danger, pick your moment to undertake carefully, we are constantly watching close overtake video's on this web site, almost all of them are because drivers are impatient and overtake when the road isn't clear, so lets not fall foul of the same impatience by riding up the inside of a HGV or running red lights., just wait !

I've never ridden up the inside of a truck or large vehicle,yet I've had plenty of those vehicles drive up my outside,overtake me at red lights,jumped red lights to get ahead,pushed through just ahead at pedestrian islands,squeezed past when there was no room or pulled along side me while im stopped and still turned left, so don't lecture me about how I'm 'part of the problem' there.

And fwiw I have driven a truck,it scared the life out of me how easy manufacturers had made it to control such a large vehicle,my old mini had heavier steering and slower acceleration and it' was a fraction of the size and weight.

bigbiker101 wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

The dash cam is a fixed view device, showing only the view from the windscreen; the driver has mirrors and can move his head and eyes, so the footage is extremely misleading.  All the cyclists featured have lights, and if the driver couldn't see them in his mirrors, then the fault is his for not having properly adjusted mirrors.

The real question is why such dangerous vehicles are allowed on the road when they are clearly not safe.

I am a cyclist, I am a car driver, I am Motorcyclist, I am a HGV Class 1 driver, I am also a Senior Observer with IAM Roadsmart, I have seen utter madness in all forms of driving over my years and this includes lots of HGV drivers, but I also see stupidity by cyclists in and around HGV's, I have 9 mirrors on my cab and even with 9 there are blind spots.

You clearly have never driven a HGV yet you are quick to lay fault, there is absolutely no doubt that some HGV accidents have been caused by negligence of the driver, but there are so many that could of been avoided, we all teach our kids how to cross the road, even when the pelican crossing lights go green we teach our kids to check the vehicles have stopped before stepping out, but god forbid you get on a bike, then it is OK to ride up the inside of a HGV turning left, it is everybody elses fault, we need some perspective and balance, even on a cycling forum.

HGV drivers have to be so careful, they are in control of a death machine, but also please please  fellow cyclists, do not put yourself in danger, pick your moment to undertake carefully, we are constantly watching close overtake video's on this web site, almost all of them are because drivers are impatient and overtake when the road isn't clear, so lets not fall foul of the same impatience by riding up the inside of a HGV or running red lights., just wait !

Anyone can rode a bike, it doesn't give the rider any more understanding of the problem than someone who is also a cyclist that gets on a bike once every year for a ride around centre parks!

IF you were IAM then you would have a greater understanding of the problem HGV/LGV drivers pose and that they are factually the worst drivers by far on the roads when it comes to killing human beings. You'd also have a better understanding of who is at fault and who bears the massively greater responsibility. Your weasel words say otherwise frankly!

As a % of the number of vehicles compared to other types LGV drivers are FIVE times more likely to be involved in a fatality on minor roads and 1 in 5 fatal crashes on A roads, also 52% of all motorway fatalities are caused by LGV drivers, despite being only 10% of the number of vehicles on said road!

It's not SOME, it's MOST! Yes, many could be avoided IF the drivers actually drove to the correct standard and took responsibility given the extreme danger they propose to others, a known thing, not a suprise to anyone!

But please, please actually bother to look in your mirrors and monitors and consider putting your indicators on, please, please put your fucking phones down, stop watching TV/playing games, accessing social media, atop chatting shit on your hands free for hours at end and so become so engrossed you're massively distracted by such.

Please, please stop trying to cut into a space that does not exist where cyclists are, please stop driving so fucking close when you overtake, please stop driving at the speed limit when overtaking because it's not appropriate speed and caused a massive wake that destabilises people on bikes. Please don't fucking pull out at roundabouts and junctions because you think you can use the might is right mode of driving because it fucking kills people ... unlike cyclists who have killed FOUR people in  7 years and found at fault by a bent system that fails cyclists at every avenue and blames them for their demise!

Stop pushing the onus of responsibility onto the vulnerable ... maybe you'll be telling your daughter of mother or other female friend/relative not to get raped by walking down the wrong street wearing the wrong clothes! 

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

bigbiker101 wrote:

The dash cam is a fixed view device, showing only the view from the windscreen; the driver has mirrors and can move his head and eyes, so the footage is extremely misleading.  All the cyclists featured have lights, and if the driver couldn't see them in his mirrors, then the fault is his for not having properly adjusted mirrors.

The real question is why such dangerous vehicles are allowed on the road when they are clearly not safe.

I am a cyclist, I am a car driver, I am Motorcyclist, I am a HGV Class 1 driver, I am also a Senior Observer with IAM Roadsmart, I have seen utter madness in all forms of driving over my years and this includes lots of HGV drivers, but I also see stupidity by cyclists in and around HGV's, I have 9 mirrors on my cab and even with 9 there are blind spots.

You clearly have never driven a HGV yet you are quick to lay fault, there is absolutely no doubt that some HGV accidents have been caused by negligence of the driver, but there are so many that could of been avoided, we all teach our kids how to cross the road, even when the pelican crossing lights go green we teach our kids to check the vehicles have stopped before stepping out, but god forbid you get on a bike, then it is OK to ride up the inside of a HGV turning left, it is everybody elses fault, we need some perspective and balance, even on a cycling forum.

HGV drivers have to be so careful, they are in control of a death machine, but also please please  fellow cyclists, do not put yourself in danger, pick your moment to undertake carefully, we are constantly watching close overtake video's on this web site, almost all of them are because drivers are impatient and overtake when the road isn't clear, so lets not fall foul of the same impatience by riding up the inside of a HGV or running red lights., just wait !

Anyone can rode a bike, it doesn't give the rider any more understanding of the problem than someone who is also a cyclist that gets on a bike once every year for a ride around centre parks!

IF you were IAM then you would have a greater understanding of the problem HGV/LGV drivers pose and that they are factually the worst drivers by far on the roads when it comes to killing human beings. You'd also have a better understanding of who is at fault and who bears the massively greater responsibility. Your weasel words say otherwise frankly!

As a % of the number of vehicles compared to other types LGV drivers are FIVE times more likely to be involved in a fatality on minor roads and 1 in 5 fatal crashes on A roads, also 52% of all motorway fatalities are caused by LGV drivers, despite being only 10% of the number of vehicles on said road!

It's not SOME, it's MOST! Yes, many could be avoided IF the drivers actually drove to the correct standard and took responsibility given the extreme danger they propose to others, a known thing, not a suprise to anyone!

But please, please actually bother to look in your mirrors and monitors and consider putting your indicators on, please, please put your fucking phones down, stop watching TV/playing games, accessing social media, atop chatting shit on your hands free for hours at end and so become so engrossed you're massively distracted by such.

Please, please stop trying to cut into a space that does not exist where cyclists are, please stop driving so fucking close when you overtake, please stop driving at the speed limit when overtaking because it's not appropriate speed and caused a massive wake that destabilises people on bikes. Please don't fucking pull out at roundabouts and junctions because you think you can use the might is right mode of driving because it fucking kills people ... unlike cyclists who have killed FOUR people in  7 years and found at fault by a bent system that fails cyclists at every avenue and blames them for their demise!

Stop pushing the onus of responsibility onto the vulnerable ... maybe you'll be telling your daughter of mother or other female friend/relative not to get raped by walking down the wrong street wearing the wrong clothes! 

[/quote]

HGV have the most fatality rate because they always win. You can blame. Always blame the driver. The road book tell tyou to stay away and give HGV. More space when your in a car on a bike I give them as much space I can. And. Try to always stay behind them. Never try to pass them when there making a right. Don't care if he can see me I just want to live another day. You as a person cyclists. Have to take your safety into your own hands. Just as you do when at work home or driving your car. Give the big trucks space. There not purposely trying to kill you

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

bigbiker101 wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

The dash cam is a fixed view device, showing only the view from the windscreen; the driver has mirrors and can move his head and eyes, so the footage is extremely misleading.  All the cyclists featured have lights, and if the driver couldn't see them in his mirrors, then the fault is his for not having properly adjusted mirrors.

The real question is why such dangerous vehicles are allowed on the road when they are clearly not safe.

I am a cyclist, I am a car driver, I am Motorcyclist, I am a HGV Class 1 driver, I am also a Senior Observer with IAM Roadsmart, I have seen utter madness in all forms of driving over my years and this includes lots of HGV drivers, but I also see stupidity by cyclists in and around HGV's, I have 9 mirrors on my cab and even with 9 there are blind spots.

You clearly have never driven a HGV yet you are quick to lay fault, there is absolutely no doubt that some HGV accidents have been caused by negligence of the driver, but there are so many that could of been avoided, we all teach our kids how to cross the road, even when the pelican crossing lights go green we teach our kids to check the vehicles have stopped before stepping out, but god forbid you get on a bike, then it is OK to ride up the inside of a HGV turning left, it is everybody elses fault, we need some perspective and balance, even on a cycling forum.

HGV drivers have to be so careful, they are in control of a death machine, but also please please  fellow cyclists, do not put yourself in danger, pick your moment to undertake carefully, we are constantly watching close overtake video's on this web site, almost all of them are because drivers are impatient and overtake when the road isn't clear, so lets not fall foul of the same impatience by riding up the inside of a HGV or running red lights., just wait !

Anyone can rode a bike, it doesn't give the rider any more understanding of the problem than someone who is also a cyclist that gets on a bike once every year for a ride around centre parks!

IF you were IAM then you would have a greater understanding of the problem HGV/LGV drivers pose and that they are factually the worst drivers by far on the roads when it comes to killing human beings. You'd also have a better understanding of who is at fault and who bears the massively greater responsibility. Your weasel words say otherwise frankly!

As a % of the number of vehicles compared to other types LGV drivers are FIVE times more likely to be involved in a fatality on minor roads and 1 in 5 fatal crashes on A roads, also 52% of all motorway fatalities are caused by LGV drivers, despite being only 10% of the number of vehicles on said road!

It's not SOME, it's MOST! Yes, many could be avoided IF the drivers actually drove to the correct standard and took responsibility given the extreme danger they propose to others, a known thing, not a suprise to anyone!

But please, please actually bother to look in your mirrors and monitors and consider putting your indicators on, please, please put your fucking phones down, stop watching TV/playing games, accessing social media, atop chatting shit on your hands free for hours at end and so become so engrossed you're massively distracted by such.

Please, please stop trying to cut into a space that does not exist where cyclists are, please stop driving so fucking close when you overtake, please stop driving at the speed limit when overtaking because it's not appropriate speed and caused a massive wake that destabilises people on bikes. Please don't fucking pull out at roundabouts and junctions because you think you can use the might is right mode of driving because it fucking kills people ... unlike cyclists who have killed FOUR people in  7 years and found at fault by a bent system that fails cyclists at every avenue and blames them for their demise!

Stop pushing the onus of responsibility onto the vulnerable ... maybe you'll be telling your daughter of mother or other female friend/relative not to get raped by walking down the wrong street wearing the wrong clothes! 

Idiotic response and this stupid attitude is the reason I won't be commenting on here ever again. You add fuel to the "anti cyclist" w***ers of the world. You think your holier than thou and it's everyone else at fault. 

The driver and the bloke you responded to have a brain, maybe thats something you should look into.

Tim K wrote:

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

bigbiker101 wrote:

burtthebike wrote:

The dash cam is a fixed view device, showing only the view from the windscreen; the driver has mirrors and can move his head and eyes, so the footage is extremely misleading.  All the cyclists featured have lights, and if the driver couldn't see them in his mirrors, then the fault is his for not having properly adjusted mirrors.

The real question is why such dangerous vehicles are allowed on the road when they are clearly not safe.

I am a cyclist, I am a car driver, I am Motorcyclist, I am a HGV Class 1 driver, I am also a Senior Observer with IAM Roadsmart, I have seen utter madness in all forms of driving over my years and this includes lots of HGV drivers, but I also see stupidity by cyclists in and around HGV's, I have 9 mirrors on my cab and even with 9 there are blind spots.

You clearly have never driven a HGV yet you are quick to lay fault, there is absolutely no doubt that some HGV accidents have been caused by negligence of the driver, but there are so many that could of been avoided, we all teach our kids how to cross the road, even when the pelican crossing lights go green we teach our kids to check the vehicles have stopped before stepping out, but god forbid you get on a bike, then it is OK to ride up the inside of a HGV turning left, it is everybody elses fault, we need some perspective and balance, even on a cycling forum.

HGV drivers have to be so careful, they are in control of a death machine, but also please please  fellow cyclists, do not put yourself in danger, pick your moment to undertake carefully, we are constantly watching close overtake video's on this web site, almost all of them are because drivers are impatient and overtake when the road isn't clear, so lets not fall foul of the same impatience by riding up the inside of a HGV or running red lights., just wait !

Anyone can rode a bike, it doesn't give the rider any more understanding of the problem than someone who is also a cyclist that gets on a bike once every year for a ride around centre parks!

IF you were IAM then you would have a greater understanding of the problem HGV/LGV drivers pose and that they are factually the worst drivers by far on the roads when it comes to killing human beings. You'd also have a better understanding of who is at fault and who bears the massively greater responsibility. Your weasel words say otherwise frankly!

As a % of the number of vehicles compared to other types LGV drivers are FIVE times more likely to be involved in a fatality on minor roads and 1 in 5 fatal crashes on A roads, also 52% of all motorway fatalities are caused by LGV drivers, despite being only 10% of the number of vehicles on said road!

It's not SOME, it's MOST! Yes, many could be avoided IF the drivers actually drove to the correct standard and took responsibility given the extreme danger they propose to others, a known thing, not a suprise to anyone!

But please, please actually bother to look in your mirrors and monitors and consider putting your indicators on, please, please put your fucking phones down, stop watching TV/playing games, accessing social media, atop chatting shit on your hands free for hours at end and so become so engrossed you're massively distracted by such.

Please, please stop trying to cut into a space that does not exist where cyclists are, please stop driving so fucking close when you overtake, please stop driving at the speed limit when overtaking because it's not appropriate speed and caused a massive wake that destabilises people on bikes. Please don't fucking pull out at roundabouts and junctions because you think you can use the might is right mode of driving because it fucking kills people ... unlike cyclists who have killed FOUR people in  7 years and found at fault by a bent system that fails cyclists at every avenue and blames them for their demise!

Stop pushing the onus of responsibility onto the vulnerable ... maybe you'll be telling your daughter of mother or other female friend/relative not to get raped by walking down the wrong street wearing the wrong clothes! 

Idiotic response and this stupid attitude is the reason I won't be commenting on here ever again.

Thank god.  I can't stand people who don't clip their quotes to a sensible length.

bigbiker101 wrote:

I am a cyclist, I am a car driver, I am Motorcyclist, I am a HGV Class 1 driver, I am also a Senior Observer with IAM Roadsmart, I have seen utter madness in all forms of driving over my years and this includes lots of HGV drivers, but I also see stupidity by cyclists in and around HGV's, I have 9 mirrors on my cab and even with 9 there are blind spots.

Well, it is a privilege and an honour to have such a highly qualified respondent.

Tell me, do you think that the footage from the dashcam was representative and valid, given that it showed only the view from the windscreen and the fixed field of view of the camera, and could not show the views in the mirrors?

Being so highly qualified, you'll also be able to tell us whether a huge, dangerous vehicle which is more likely than others to kill innocent vulnerable road users should be allowed on the road when it has blind spots?  If you haven't worked it out, here's a clue; no.

Stop blaming cyclists and put the blame where it belongs; on our complete ultra-shambles of a government and drivers who don't care.

Such an experienced and qualified driver will also be able to tell us how many HGV drivers have been killed by cyclists, rather than the other way around.  With power comes responsibility, and HGV drivers have all the power, and therefore the responsibility.

bigbiker101 wrote:

HGV drivers have to be so careful, they are in control of a death machine!

A point rather missed by the lorry driver I saw recently that was reading a newpaper spread over his steering wheel - I mainly noticed this, as he turned the page as I went past! Sadly, I was in the car with no dashcam - if I'd been on the bike, I would have had the bar cam on.

I'm seriously considering using the bar cam in the car!

LastBoyScout wrote:

if I'd been on the bike, I would have had the bar cam on.

And pulled some balletic wheelie?

burtthebike wrote:

The real question is why such dangerous vehicles are allowed on the road when they are clearly not safe.

This, because the problem is not just how LGVs/HGVs interact with cyclists.

Half the time, I'm not sure their drivers even see other motor vehicles.  How many of us have driven on the motorway with a HGV about three feet off our car's back bumper, which then pulls out, passes at about 1 foot per hour faster, then pulls in far too close?  How many of us have had an overtaking HGV try and move over when our car is *right next to* their cab??

I can't imagine that we'd would ever let HGVs be driven around an urban environment, if they were suddenly invented today...  Pretty sure they'd be restricted to motorways (you know - the roads that *were* built for cars).

burtthebike wrote:

The real question is why such dangerous vehicles are allowed on the road when they are clearly not safe.

100% this. You can't blame other people for being in a blind spot when it's your blind spot.

If you hold the risk, you hold the responsibility.

burtthebike wrote:

The dash cam is a fixed view device, showing only the view from the windscreen; the driver has mirrors and can move his head and eyes, so the footage is extremely misleading.  All the cyclists featured have lights, and if the driver couldn't see them in his mirrors, then the fault is his for not having properly adjusted mirrors.

The real question is why such dangerous vehicles are allowed on the road when they are clearly not safe.

Sounds like you need one of these "ride alongs" quite badly.

oceandweller wrote:

Couldn't agree more. Nobody is perfect - fact.

You are the lorry driver!  Who clearly is perfect.

Thank you for putting "fact" after the statement that nobody is perfect, otherwise I might have been tempted to doubt you.  That was irony by the way.