An accountancy chief has been cleared of causing the death of a cyclist in a collision with a group ride on a country lane in Suffolk, the driver’s lawyer having blamed the fatal crash on “the position of the cyclists”.
The collision happened on the evening of 17 May 2023 on Church Road, near Bentley in Suffolk, a country lane that the Mail reported from Ipswich Crown Court is a designated ‘Quiet Route’, on which the collision happened at a “very gentle bend”.
Thomas Gibbs hit Ben Jacobs, who was third in a line of four cyclists riding in single file, the 47-year-old father of three suffering a significant brain injury. He was airlifted to a hospital in Cambridge but died the following day.
The court heard how Mr Gibbs had told the cyclists after the collision he was late getting home to a nanny who was looking after his children, however in a prepared statement to police and throughout the trial it was insisted that the driver had not been in a rush.
The BBC was also at Ipswich Crown Court for the trial and reported Mr Gibbs had left Manningtree station at about 18:51pm, having spent the day working in London. There was evidence to suggest he was listening to music through earphones and the report also states the driver “had used his phone, but not in the seven minutes before the collision”.
Mr Gibbs said his speed at the time of the collision had been between 20-30mph, the cyclists’ computers and GPS data suggesting they were travelling in the opposite direction at around 22mph. The conditions were described as “perfect” on the early summer evening and the group ride was in single file at the bend.
Responding to the claim he had been in a rush to get home, Mr Gibbs said he could “only put these comments down to me being in a state of shock and, by the time I made that comment, I was late to pick up my children”.
The police investigation suggested from the driver’s vehicle’s tyre marks that there had been a 1.1m gap between his car and the verge, through which the riders would have had to ridden in order to avoid an impact.
The first rider was not hit, but the second rider David Solomon suffered facial injuries including a broken nose. The fourth rider at the back of the group also avoided injury, but Mr Jacobs, in the third place in the line, was hit into the air.
Mr Gibbs, who co-founded a Shoreditch-based accountancy firm, suggested overgrown grass verges may have hampered visibility.
“As far as I was concerned, I was paying proper attention to the road ahead,” he said. “I simply did not have time to avoid the collisions or take sufficient evasive action.”
The court heard that both the driver and cyclists’ vision would have been obstructed by foliage, the trial told Mr Gibbs would not have seen the cyclists until 1.6 seconds before the impact.
The fourth cyclist in the group, Jason Taylor recalled: “My first thought was the car didn’t appear to be slowing and that alarmed me – it was coming at quite a speed towards us and it all happened so quickly… it was a full impact strike.”
However, the speed Mr Gibbs was driving at was not viewed as a factor, according to the forensic collision investigator, PC Mark Head, who said it was not a “high-speed collision” and who described the driver as “attentive”. Likewise, the judge suggested there was “no criticism of the speed of his journey” and PC Head added there was no evidence to challenge the claim Mr Gibbs was driving at speeds between 20-30mph.
Prosecutor Charles Myatt had argued “whatever speed he was driving at, it was simply too fast in all the prevailing circumstances”, and that if the proper speed was used such a collision would not have occurred. It was noted the narrow lane had several bends, with mud and sand occasionally at the side of the route and debris in the middle.
Mr Gibbs’ defence lawyer James Leonard argued the “only logical explanation is that that they [the cyclists] were not all exactly behind each other”. He also questioned why the rider at the front had not warned any of the riders behind when he saw the vehicle.
“As night follows day, the cause of this impact was the position of the cyclists,” Mr Leonard argued, suggesting his client had left “a comfortably passable gap” and the riders “should have been able to pass”.
He described his client’s driving as “attentive to his surroundings and taking necessary action as soon as he could”.
Following deliberation, described by the Mail as just over an hour and by the BBC as an hour, Mr Gibbs was cleared unanimously of causing death by careless driving.
Judge Richard Kelly called the collision “a tragedy of immense proportions” and said “whatever the verdict, there are no winners”.

184 thoughts on “Driver who hit group of cyclists on country lane cleared of causing death by careless driving, after defence lawyer argues “position of cyclists” was cause of crash”
As night follows day had the
As night follows day had the driver been attentive it wouldn’t have happened
thats the aspect of the
thats the aspect of the defence I dont get, how can the driver have been attentive if they cant see or react to a group of 4 cyclists in front of them.
how is it not careless driving to kill someone if you crash into them ?
Ah, but the cyclists were not
Ah, but the cyclists were not stationary – indeed they were going “fast” (while the driver at 30mph was “slow” and presumably well below the speed limit – NSL here?).
So everyone nods – yes, the driver was following the law, indeed “careful”. But they would have had “no time” when the cyclists “came out of nowhere”. So tragic (and for the poor driver!) Why, it’s pretty much “they cycled into the car and killed themselves”…
Another “innocently killed” it seems.
yes its still NSL at that bit
yes its still NSL at that bit and IME most drivers make full use of that limit, as theyre still in A137 mode, ie driving too fast.
so Id be surprised to encounter anyone, who wasnt just lost looking for the woods(which are popular for dog walkers), driving at 20-30mph on that road.
Even when the limit drops to 30mph around the area of the school, I dont think Ive ever met any driver really sticking to that as a limit, and then theres quite a few awkward bits around the school as a cyclist you have to kind of judge the potential risk of a driver appearing before commiting to a position on the road as theres no room to escape.
when I first heard about the crash Id assumed it was likely in that bit near the school, not where it actually turned out to be.
stonojnr wrote:
It’s a legal distinction. You first have to establish the base offence (careless or dangerous driving). If it resulted in fatality, that then changes the sentence. See the CPS guidance:
Factors that are not relevant in deciding whether driving is dangerous or careless
The following factors are not relevant when deciding whether an act of driving is dangerous or careless:
The injury or death of one or more persons involved in a road traffic collision. Importantly, injury or death does not, by itself, turn a collision into careless driving or turn careless driving into dangerous driving.
That all should be irrelevant
That all should be irrelevant imo,if you’ve killed someone whilst driving, you are plainly guilty of death by careless driving, as clearly killing someone whilst driving is way below the threshold of a careful sensible safe driver.
clearly killing someone
clearly killing someone whilst driving is way below the threshold of a careful sensible safe driver
Many cyclists may think that way, but the police don’t, the courts don’t and the great majority of the public don’t. You should know by now what to expect on behalf of your remaining family should you as a cyclist be KSI’d by a driver: the police, the courts and the Shyster Driver Defence Lawyer (and even the prosecution lawyer by means of not trying too hard) all working together to get the driver off. Judge Kelly and PC Head illustrate this- the Judge states ‘there are no winners in this case’ whereas most of us think Accountant driver Thomas Gibbs is a Really Big Winner, and no doubt A Jolly Good Chap and One of Us.
stonojnr wrote:
That’s a reasonable heuristic I agree but it can’t apply in every single case, there have been cases of drunk pedestrians trying to get across motorways at night, if someone suddenly runs out in front of you when you’re doing 70 you can’t really be blamed if you hit them.
“Innocently killed”, isn’t it
“Innocently killed”, isn’t it?
It turns out many of us feel this is almost always the case (including the police). It clearly happens sometimes (the well-rehearsed case of the cyclist hitting the pedestrian in Regent’s Park comes to mind).
Perhaps yet again the more helpful view is the “health and safety” perspective.
Especially in a system which is by design – and partly rightly – biased against condemning drivers out of hand.
Who rides at the edge of a
Who rides at the edge of a quiet single track road?
“Mr Gibbs would not have seen
“Mr Gibbs would not have seen the cyclists until 1.6 seconds before the impact”
Now we all know only a fool breaks the 2 second rule, so surely this means he was driving too fast for the visibilty available
Quote:
That is, quite frankly, a load of tosh – but seems to have been accepted by the court and police collision investigator??? Unbelievable.
On a narrow road such as this, a driver should be pulling into a passing place to allow oncoming cyclists to pass. Or at the very least coming to a stop. Even if it were a 1.1m gap, that’s just not enough at 20-30 mph.
Even the sign for this quiet lane shows a cyclist taking up the full width of the lane, not pinned to the gutter to ensure the unimpeded progress of a motorist.
they dont though, its
they dont though, its something I encounter frequently around here as we have alot of single lane roads like this to cycle on, most of them are classified as these Quiet Lanes, which really doesnt mean anything or change driving behaviour, and it maybe 1 in 10 drivers who will stop for you, the rest plough on regardless, often at speed in excess of the speed limit, because theres no police around ever to enforce it.
It’s all too common, I agree,
It’s all too common, I agree, but it’s very wrong. I don’t want to experience this sort of driving:
so I sometimes find myself riding defensively like this:
HoarseMann wrote:
Which one of those do you consider as riding defensively? To me all cyclists in that video were riding dangerously.
whosatthewheel wrote:
the first one. Narrow single track lane, car accelerating towards you, showing no signs they’ve seen you or slowing down. Some lateral movements into the driver’s line of sight to make yourself conspicous and to look for signs they’ve seen you. Then movements to encourage a reduction in speed. Worked like a charm.
Since it is a quiet lane, why
Since it is a quiet lane, why the hell was he not expecting cyclists and pedestrians and dogs?
No way did he drive to the conditions or at a speed he could see he could easily stop in.
Speed was not a factor is utter bullshit on a lane like that.
The more I read into this
The more I read into this story, the more astonished I am at the outcome of the trial. This was a designated quiet lane. You should have been safe to be in the middle of the lane on a pogo-stick, let alone riding along on a bicycle.
Being so close to the perps home, I can only think ‘familiarity breeds contempt’ played a part here.
From looking at the collision reports, I think this would have been the driver’s view going into an extremely slight right hand kink in the road – with the collision occurring just where the red car is. I can accept that vision would have been affected by the overgrown verge – but surely that’s all the more reason to slow down?
I suspect he could see enough of the carriageway to be fairly sure there wasn’t a car coming the other way, but not enough to see the cyclists tucked into the side.
It’s a kink in the road that would be possible to navigate at speed. But with poor visibility, you would be taking a chance. Unfortunately, a chance that this driver was willing to take and the jury it seems to have no issue with it ?.
Could you tell me where to
Could you tell me where to find the collision report?
it’s here:
it’s here:
https://www.cyclestreets.net/collisions/reports/2023371308598/
I dont think it was there,
I dont think it was there, CrashMap has it recorded here,which ties in with my understanding locally about it, as it was nearer the A137, which is why the drivers speed is relevant…
https://maps.app.goo.gl/i7UDMo99fLg2t7iH8
So a perfectly straight bit of the road but absolutely no way a car is leaving any room to pass a group of cyclists there, so Im a bit confused about why they talk about visibility and the turns on that road or where they get 1m of space from.
yes the sides of country road have been left to grow of late, but I actually rode along Church Road just the week before this crash happened and I dont recall visibility being a problem, I do recall people driving like absolute twats on it though, to the point I dont think Ive ever realised till now it was anything but NSL still, but its kind of an area I avoid now as the whole area is pretty bad for cycling.
That’s the same location. You
That’s the same location. You’ve posted the view the cyclists would have had and I’ve posted the driver’s view.
I went back in time with streetview, to find an image that had fuller verges and a vehicle in view for road width reference, so it looks a bit different.
and yes, I don’t get why the court seemed to accept that a 1.1m gap (and by that they mean the entire road space available to the cyclist, not the distance between them and the passing vehicle) was ‘comfortable’. That’s not comfortable at any speed. I even doubt it was that much – if there’s no evidence to prove the driver’s speed, I’m not sure how the defence can be so sure about their position on the road? The fact the first cyclist missed the vehicle is here-nor-there. It doesn’t mean the driver was being careful.
Thanks for the link/ Looking
Thanks for the link. Looking at the timeline on streetview, even with extra foliage I fail to see how you can miss 4 cyclists.
What was the driver going to do if it was a group of walkers ?
Hirsute wrote:
blame them for not getting out of the way, obvs.
quite frankly, it stinks of a cover up.
also, I should say the streetview footage will give a much better view than the driver had, as the camera is elevated and in the centre of the vehicle. The motorist was driving a VW Passat, which has a low-ish driving position and they would be seated to the right of the lane. I do believe that the cyclists were obscured by the foliage on the slight right-hand bend. I also think the driver could see enough of the road to be sure a car wasn’t coming towards them. Those two things resulted in a dangerous complacency IMO that encouraged this driver to take the corner at far too great a speed, with absolutely no consideration there might be vulnerable road users ahead – despite the warning sign of a ‘quiet lane’ he would have been well aware of.
ah ok, understood, sorry,
ah ok, understood, sorry, thought it just looked further along when the road really does have more sharp bends and does get more hedges so visibility could be claimed to be worse etc.
but makes no sense does it, allegedly travelling at “20-30mph” yet claimed to have only 1.6 seconds (which seems jolly precise as a guess) to react, on a road where youve got clear sightline straight ahead for a good few hundred metres, and its not 1 cyclist, its a group of 4, who almost certainly were riding two up and not in a line.
Id need to dig into it more again, as there are details Im sure were the case or Id learnt at the time, but have seemingly since been ignored or werent brought up in this case.
but as soon as I saw the police investigator claim there was no evidence to dispute the speed claim, this would be the outcome.
After watching the ‘collision
After watching the ‘collision detectives’ series on the BBC, I have little confidence that the police carry out scientific and unbiased investigations of collisions where cyclists and vulnerable road users are concerned.
I also find it very concerning that they can be so confident that there is ‘no evidence’ that could verify the driver’s speed, yet their position on the road and the split second timings of what they’ve seen are provided as fact. Dubious.
Did the “but the cyclists
Thanks all for local knowledge.
Did the “but the cyclists were going at a *high speed* ” (apparently around 20mph, almost certainly significantly less than the driver) weigh heavily here? So “they’re smaller than a car / hard to see” plus our inbuilt “30mph is slow for a car and very ‘safe’ *, 20mph is fast for cyclists and ‘dangerous’ “?
* despite the “lethal outcome shift” at 20-30mph – where if hitting a vulnerable road user at 20mph their survival is more likely than not, but above 30mph they’re more likely to die than survive?
almost certainly, Ive seen
almost certainly, Ive seen comments in the local press on this case, claiming the cyclists must have been in TT mode heads down to go that “fast”, so blaming them for not seeing the car sooner.
yet its a fairly flat bit of road, smooth tarmac, its not difficult to ride at 20mph for an average fit cyclist along there, and Ben who was killed was a very fit runner,cyclist & triathlete.
If that is the location I
If that is the location I would have been out in the middle of the road, or may be even further to my right, to maximise the distance I can see round the bend and to enable any oncoming drivers to see me as soon as possible. I would be ready to move in quickly as soon as I see an oncoming driver especially if I can hear a car approaching.
This has worked for me so far but I am sure I have been lucky and many other cyclists have questioned my road positioning.
I agree. If riding solo, I
I agree. If riding solo, I would have been on the right-hand side of the road, to give the best view around the bend.
I wouldn’t consider there to be enough room for a safe pass on this road, so I would maintain my position, taking the same sort of road space as I would in the car, to encourage the oncoming driver to use the passing place just after the bend. Obviously ready to swerve out of the way if they truely haven’t seen me or just continue ploughing on towards me.
However, it’s not quite so easy to adjust your road position when riding as a group. Not everyone is comfortable with that sort of defensive positioning. It’s certainly not a fault of the cyclists for keeping to the left side of the road.
I apologise if I gave the
I apologise if I gave the impression I was apportioning any blame to the cyclists I just thought it was worth mentioning. As you say many cyclists won’t do it as they think they need to be on the left all the time but I disagree with this sentiment. I have been told off many times. As for riding in a group I would be out front on my own if I were taking that line, you need to be able to move in if necessary.
I didn’t think you were
I didn’t think you were apportioning any blame, just wanted to cover that off so nobody thinks I would put any blame whatsoever on the cyclists.
I do use all the road space when necessary and my riding style would definately not be for everyone. It’s defensive, but some would say it’s aggressive or provocative. I know it’s not, I’m not out for ‘youtube clicks’ or whatever, just want to make myself seen and encourage the correct behaviour from drivers.
Quiet lanes without the
Quiet lanes without the requisite 20mph speed limits are a con. They convey no addition restrictions onto the driver.
alot of them are still NSL, I
alot of them are still NSL, I cant say Id ever noticed Church Rd was speed limited, that should tell you all you need to know about how people drive it, but this is the thing that explains Suffolks quiet lanes https://www.quietlanessuffolk.co.uk/
whilst it suggests drivers take their time, they arent like specifically speed limited as a concept, unlike I think the green lanes concept in Jersey and elsewhere where even overtaking a cyclist is prohibited.
basically theyre just standard single lane country lanes with a sign.
Secret_squirrel wrote:
But they should alert any driver to the likelihood of coming across cyclists and pedestrians on the stretch of road. Whether or not they take on board this extra information depends on the COMPETENCE and CAREFULNESS of the driver.
… and we know what the
… and we know what the expected standards are there, socially and legally. And they’re not very good.
Just whacking a 20mph limit on won’t mean that drivers obey that either, or even that the average speed will be close to 20mph, especially outside of urban areas. But the evidence does suggest the average comes down.
Given the road layout around here I think a modal filter (no through motor traffic) would be quite reasonable, although you can bet that wouldn’t be popular even with residents as it would mean going a few miles further.
When cycling in Fife, I’ve
When cycling in Fife, I’ve come across a couple of country roads marked by signs as “Cycle friendly routes”. And yet, the speed limit on those narrow roads with variable visibility round corners? Always 40mph!
How any planner can equate “cycle friendly” with 40mph is beyond me, let alone when narrow and twisty is added into the mix.
40mph limit is cycle friendly
40mph limit is cycle friendly, as the drivers will only be doing 50-60mph.
Quote:
How could they possibly know that? Was the car equipped with eye-tracking recorders? It sounds rather as if the ‘investigator’ simply regurgitated whatever the driver told them.
From stories here it seems
RIP.
From stories here it seems this isn’t the first time someone who should be carefully distinguishing facts from inference and indeed assumption may not have.
Presumably the investigator determined there was no evidence of the driver skidding earlier etc and since the driver hadn’t come off the road before the collision that (inference) ergo they were “attentive”? Despite acknowledged phone use during the journey?
Of course “looking out for myself” and looking out for others can be different things…
I suspect that not looking at
I suspect that not looking at a mobile phone for 7 minutes whilst driving counts as attentive these days.
Thomas Gibbs wrote:
Both statements cannot be true!
Oh fuck the fuck off. Victim
Oh fuck the fuck off. Victim blaming the cyclists and the jury ate it up.
“Mr Gibbs would not have seen the cyclists until 1.6 seconds before the impact”
“He also questioned why the rider at the front had not warned any of the riders behind when he saw the vehicle”
Right so 1.6 seconds wasn’t enough for the driver to do anything but 1.6 seconds was enough for the rider at the front to talk to the 3 behind and warn them and for them to take evasive action. Fuck off.
—–
“As night follows day, the cause of this impact was the position of the cyclists,” Mr Leonard argued, suggesting his client had left “a comfortably passable gap” and the riders “should have been able to pass”.
Oh I’m sorry, I forgot that cyclists are only allowed enough space to pass their betters on the road.
I come across so many bellends on country roads driving far too fast for the conditions (bendy roads, debris in the road, verges encroaching, holes at the side) and way too many of them give not a single fuck about the fact they are passing within 20-30cm of my bars, often at speeds exceeding 40mph. Its utterly mind boggling that this is considered OK. We have rules about not passing cyclists within 1.5m but nothing about not coming head on at them within 1/5th of that distance at speed.
Driver changes his story, makes up crap about the verges (which if true should mean he drives far more slowly) and then his lawyer proceeds to blame the cyclists. As one of the cyclists suggested, he didn’t slow down.
This is the reality of cycling on our roads. We live because of luck. We live because we mitigate things so much on our side to keep ourselves safe. We live because the chances of the cunt coming around the corner on the wrong side of the road being at precisely the same moment we are coming around the corner in the other direction is tiny. When our luck runs out its just treated as “one of those things”.
Questions – I was wondering
Questions – I was wondering what on earth someone was doing driving here – was it “cut through” (there are good parallel routes – other countries this would be access only). But perhaps the the driver does live on one of these lanes?
The other statements reported here though… Again this is just a lawyer doing their job, but “As night follows day, the cause of this impact was the road position of the cyclists”? Er… or the road position of the car, especially given it’s a narrow lane.
From looking at streetview (random places on this lane) it’s not clear how they *would* have left enough space for cyclists. And even if their account is true I shudder at the idea of diving through a gap of that size at a closing speed somewhere near 50mph.
We have 3 other witnesses – but perhaps only one saw the impact – the one behind the cyclist who was hit? What exactly did they say? Was what they said discounted because “their word against the driver’s”?
I guess given how previous cases have gone it seems you usually need pretty cast iron evidence of what exactly happened at that moment. Were statements from the others considered irrelevant or “they would say that”?
Aiui the driver lives on this
Aiui the driver lives on this road somewhere, most likely nearer Bentley than where the crash happened, but the driver passed a more direct but slower route imo
stonojnr wrote:
Yep, from an earlier article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15352287/Driver-accused-killing-father-cycling-told-witnesses-running-late-childrens-nanny-court-hears.html
Strangely, despite living in a rather pricey property, the collision report puts the driver in the 20-30% least deprived economic category.
Forensic expert said driver
Forensic expert said driver had 1.6s to avoid impact from seeing lead cyclist. Which, when you allow for any sort of reaction time, leaves around 0.1 second to actually brake or take a different line More or less same conditions for the lead cyclist too, no chance to brake, no chance to warn those behind or take avoiding action.
Forensic expert said driver
Forensic expert said driver had 1.6s to avoid impact from seeing lead cyclist
That’s stretching the description of PC Head a bit far. If his comments have been accurately reported then there was no evidence to challenge the claim Mr Gibbs was driving at speeds between 20-30mph should have been: ‘there is no evidence to indicate the driver’s speed, so the 20-30 mph figure is only the driver’s claim’. This 1.6 seconds figure by the ‘police forensic expert’ should be treated with equal derision.
StevenCrook wrote:
Sounds to me like an admission that the driver was going too fast for being able to stop in the distance that can be seen to be clear.
It’s entirely possible for a broken down car, a skip or a fallen tree can be on your side of the road just round a corner, so you need to drive to the conditions if there’s poor visibility.
Its entirely possible for
Its entirely possible for there to be a flippin tractor coming the other way, and theyd come off second best even in a car. And there is also a horse riding school south of Bentley, but they’d use Church Rd to get to the trails in the woods.
Yep. My wife and I were on
Yep. My wife and I were on some small lane near stoke by nayland one recent summer. Had to abandon onto the grass verge when we heard a tractor coming !
Evidence? Forensics didn’t
Evidence? Forensics didn’t offer anything to counter drivers claims. Closing speed would have been around 70kph if both sides statements are taken at face value, and that’s what determines reaction time available. Not just the speed of one party.
StevenCrook wrote:
Are you actually stupid or just roleplaying a stupid person?
The driver was unable to stop (or even slow according to the reports) in the distance that he could see to be clear. That’s a basic tenet of The Highway Code and driving safely as you never know what’s around a blind corner. He was clearly going too fast for the circumstances as evidenced by him not being able to stop or slow in time.
Also, leaving 1.1m gap is ridiculous – that’s not even the minimum allowed width of murder lanes (which would be 1.5m).
Folk ‘rat run’ out of towns
Folk ‘rat run’ out of towns down here on some stupid roads. As you get closer to London its amazing (not in a goodway) how the peaks spread out. About 3 or 4 years ago I got nearly took out on a lane of similar context but far narrower and hillier with high banks. I went down a short but steep hill only to see a SUV’s bonnet emerging round the corner. Fortunately, I wasn’t going too fast and they were travelling at a more approppriate speed but there was able to stop instantly with a heavy laptop. I managed to squeeze by the narrow gap on the drivers side of their bonnet and stop before I clattered into their wing mirror with a bit of an endo and ending up on their bonnet. There was actually a queue building up behind them as I untangled myself. Its made me a right wuss descending when I can’t see far enough ahead of me.
Maybe this one (street view is from the driver’s perspective, it depicts steepness better) https://maps.app.goo.gl/QpjeWxYJNfM58pWD7
My View FWIW https://maps.app.goo.gl/nWsBBiQYCdpWnjk96
Every single person involved
Every single person involved in getting the driver off in this case should be forced to step into the shoes of the cyclists and replicate the situation (but not the outcome) on a daily basis.
I wonder if PC Head has ever
I wonder if PC Head has ever ridden a bike on country roads. I would bet my mortgage that the answer is “no”.
The more I read the comments
The more I read the comments and think about what happened, the clearer it is the extent to which the police and prosecution failed the family.
No, the police and
No, the police and prosecution presented all the evidence as far as I can see. It was the jury who acquitted Mr Gibbs of death by careless driving
Oh, you are back for more
Oh, you are back for more trolling.
You clearly haven’t read the story or the comments with a reply like that.
Another one for the ignore list.
I have, he was doing at most
I have, he was doing at most 30mph as he entered a bend with a speed limit of 60mph on that road, so he had slowed to half the speed limit and may have had his view obscured. He was not on his phone or drunk or on drugs either and on that evidence the jury found him not guilty of careless driving causing the death of the cyclist going about 20mph himself. Now there may be a case going forward for a 20mph limit on single track roads but that is not the law now, so the driver did not break the law as it stands
SVXY wrote:
He admitted that he didn’t have time to stop or change direction to avoid the collision, that is an admission that he was driving too fast for the conditions, the speed limit is exactly that, a limit, not a target and a competent driver should be driving to the conditions not the limit.
So? Experts affirmed he was
So? Experts affirmed he was not driving any faster than 30mph and the road had a 60mph limit. So given he was driving at half the speed limit the jury correctly acquitted him
If you think that half the
If you think that half the limit is automatically safe then you are just another bad driver.
Half the limit in law is safe
Half the limit in law is safe, as the jury agreed when they acquitted him. Now there may be a case as I said earlier for the speed limit on single track roads to be changed to 20mph but at the moment legally it is 60mph so in law he was driving at a more than safe speed as the law stands now when slowing for a bend
SVXY wrote:
So if there are tailbacks on the motorway, it’s fine to just plough into them at 35mph?
You’ve just invented this provision, and it’s absolute nonsense.
The speed limit on a motorway
The speed limit on a motorway is 70mph. In any case tailbacks of stationary cars on a motorway are clearly visible unlike cyclists coming towards you at 20mph on a single track lane
SVXY wrote:
So now you accept that you should only drive at a speed where you can stop in the room that is clearly visible? You’ve almost grasped it then.
As far as he was concerned he
As far as he was concerned he could not see any cyclists until seconds before he did whereas large tailbacks of traffic would have been seen for minutes before and likely signpost warninged as well. He had also slowed down to half the speed limit for the road as he approached the bend anyway and the jury correctly found him not guilty
Oh dear – still slightly too
Oh dear – still slightly too hard-of-thinking to quite make the connection, it seems.
SVXY wrote:
It’s irrelevant whether he was doing half the speed limit, as you admitted he drove into a bend where he did not have sight of oncoming traffic at a speed that was too fast for him to stop in time to avoid said traffic. If it was safe he wouldn’t have killed anyone.
No it is very relevant and
No it is very relevant and was the key reason the jury correctly found him not guilty. He slowed down to 30mph on a 60mph limit road as he entered the bend, so as he had slowed down to reflect the bend the jury had no grounds to convict him and acquitted him. He was not breaking the law, now it may have been safer for him to be driving at 20mph as he approached that bend but as the law stands the speed limit was 60mph on that single track road not 20mph so he did nothing illegal
Jury deliberations are
Jury deliberations are confidential in this country so I’m not quite sure how you know on what grounds the jury decided to find him not guilty. Perhaps the jury were as ignorant as you appear to be and did not know that dangerous driving can be an offence no matter what the speed of the driver nor what proportion of the speed limit that speed represents. If you drive into a bend where are you are unsighted at a speed that will preclude you being able to stop in time for any hazard waiting out of your sight around the bend then that is dangerous driving. To prevent you continually repeating the rubbish you have been spouting I suggest you have a look at the Sentencing Council guidelines where they have, separate to driving in excess of the speed limit, a definition of dangerous driving as: “Driving at a speed that is inappropriate for the prevailing road or weather conditions.”
The jury clearly found him
The jury clearly found him not guilty mainly on the grounds of speed, as that was what the prosecution were trying to get him on. In terms of your Sentencing Council guidelines, you can only be prosecuted for dangerous driving in terms of speed without going above the speed limit if the weather conditions for example are extremely poor and you are still going at the road speed limit or very close to it. He wasn’t, in good weather conditions he had slowed down to half the speed limit when going round the bend. Hence he ultimately was not prosecuted for dangerous driving and hence the jury correctly acquitted him even of careless driving causing death
SVXY wrote:
Wrong as usual. The weather can be perfect and you can still be prosecuted for dangerous driving if your speed is excessive for the road situation, hence the wording “prevailing road conditions”. Prevailing road conditions could mean, for example, visibility being obscured by overgrown verges. This is what Gibbs claimed was the case and it’s quite extraordinary that he was acquitted having admitted to driving into a bend too fast to stop if there was a hazard when by his own admission his visibility of any hazards was obscured. You’re obviously getting off on the fact that the jury acquitted this individual despite his having killed someone; you would do well to remember that juries can get things wrong, sometimes they might be loaded with, for example, silly little pissants who get their jollies coming on cycling websites and defending drivers who have killed and seriously injured cyclists.
It was not excessive for the
It was not excessive for the prevailing road conditions though was it, he had slowed down to just 30mph as he approached a bend which he would have had only seconds to see obscured by verges on a 60mph limit. Though again he had slowed down anyway once he reached the overgrown verges. The jury were entirely right to acquit him therefore. If you want to change the law so that single track roads have a 20mph limit to reduce the chances of accidents like this, fair enough. However the jury were entirely right to acquit him and for now, at least until Lammy reduces the use of juries anyway, what the juries decide is the outcome of a case is the application of the law on that case. Yes it was sad the cyclist was killed but it was accident. Though I think a judge would likely have acquitted him too given he was still well under the speed limit, not intoxicated and not on his phone
SVXY wrote:
Well it seems to me that the driver was aquited on the grounds that he left 1.1m. for the cyclists to dive into to get out of his way. If they weren’t quick enough then it was their own fault.
Well on those grounds to be
Well on those grounds to be fair the leading cyclist did manage to get through the gap even if the cyclist killed following on behind sadly did not.
SVXY wrote:
Wow!!!!!!!!
SVXY wrote:
So you agree that he entered a bend with his view obscured at 30 mph. Therefore he chose to drive at a speed where he could not stop within his own range of vision. He didn’t have time to stop when presented with a hazard on the other side of the road, therefore he was going too fast for the circumstances. Given your continued repetition of what you view as exculpating circumstances, could you kindly point out the section in the law or the highway code which says it’s okay to hit someone as long as you’re not on your phone, drunk or on drugs? You appear to believe that the same behaviour/intoxication that would ensure a guilty verdict if present guarantees acquittal if absent.
At 30mph yes, so he had
At 30mph yes, so he had slowed to half the speed limit on that road of 60mph. In law as it stands he had more than slowed below the legal speed limit and the jury confirmed he was not going too fast for the circumstances when they found him not guilty. He didn’t hit the cylist deliberately and in the law as it stands did nothing wrong hence he was acquitted. It was just an unfortunate accident that is all. Had he been doing 65mph he would of course have been found guilty even if not on his phone and not intoxicated but he wasn’t
An innappropriate speed is
An innappropriate speed is not an accident FFS, its someones choice (deliberate decision) which had tragic consequences!
He was not doing an
He was not doing an inappropriate speed though was he under the law. The speed limit on that road was 60mph, he was doing only 30mph as he approached that bend and the jury correctly found him not guilty as there were no legal grounds to convict him
He killed someone, it was an
He killed someone, it was an inappropriate speed #End Of
Rubbish, just because someone
Rubbish, just because someone died doesn’t mean an offence was committed. Unfortunately that was the consequence of this accident but in law he was correctly found not guilty of a driving offence as he was driving at half the speed limit of the road. #End Of
The only nonsense is saying
The only nonsense is saying its appropriate to kill some one!
Read the sentencing guidelines:
“Driving at a speed that is inappropriate for the prevailing road or weather conditions”
30mph was not appropriate, for the prevailing road!
https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/guidelines/careless-driving-drive-without-due-care-and-attention/
I never said it was
I never said it was appropriate to kill some one but nonetheless it was just an unfortunate accident as the jury confirmed. 30mph was half the speed limit of that road, so yes it was appropriate as the jury affirmed when they acquitted him
SVXY wrote:
Fie, fellow! Gather up your courage and speak your mind!
The speed limit is 60 and I
The speed limit is 60 and I was going only 30, so that’s 30 lower. So what is the problem ?
Presumably you would also
Presumably you would also exonerate the crew members of the Titanic who thought it was OK to go full steam ahead despite visibility being too bad for that speed?
mitsky wrote:
I’d never have though that some kind of lettuce could sink a ship, although we did see one that outlasted a Prime Minister.
hawkinspeter wrote:
It happened “be-cos”?
chrisonabike wrote:
I’d never have though that some kind of lettuce could sink a ship, although we did see one that outlasted a Prime Minister.
— hawkinspeter It happened “be-cos”?— mitsky
You can trace the causes all the way back to the Brexit vote – not enough Romaine.
Were the surviving crew
Were the surviving crew members of the Titanic convicted of any offence? No. This driver was also driving at half the speed limit of the road, hardly ‘full steam ahead’
What a silly thing to say,
What a silly thing to say, society/ laws have changed. If the Titanic disaster happened today, someone would have been found criminally negligent.
Not to mention that the chief
Not to mention that the chief architect and the captain both died in the sinking, so weren’t exactly available for potential prosecutions, and White Star did settle a suit for substantial civil damages.
Hirsute wrote:
The police initially carged the driver with dangerous driving so not really their fault.
https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2025/april/man-charged-following-fatal-collision-in-bentley/
Having read a few more articles on the case I couldn’t possibly comment on the prosecution or the crash investigation. It seems to me the defence was based on the fact that the first cyclist managed to avoid being hit (by riding in the gutter) so the other cyclists should have been able to do the same.
The other factor would seem to be the speed. The cyclists could give no estimate of the speed of the car though one cyclist did say that the driver did not seem to be slowing down and the crash investigator presumably could not find evidence to disprove the drivers claim that he was doing no more than 30mph. 30mph seems to me to be a ludicrous speed to be driving round a blind bend on a road like this but it is not speeding so no problem in the eyes of the law apparently.
With no video evidence I suspect it was a case of the cyclists’ words against the drivers statement to the police. Presumably the statement was made after consultation with the defence lawyer and the driver apparently chose not to take the stand.
https://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/25673011.bentley-crash-driver-chooses-not-give-evidence-trial/
I am not a legal expert but I assume the prosecution could not force him to testify.
The disrepancies between the initial comments by the driver and the final statement with regards to being in a rush and phone use seem to have been ignored.
Perhaps David Lammy may be
Perhaps David Lammy may be right to abolish juries? I believe a significant proportion of today’s juries are drivers with the same poor ideas on road safety!? The principles of safe driving as stipulated by the highway code have been ignored, replaced with sympathy for the driver who was unfortunate to collide with an errant cyclist who was more than 1 metre from the hedgerow!!! FFS
Mr Anderson wrote:
I don’t think it’s just pedantry to point out he’s proposed no such thing, merely further restricting the already limited range of cases they are used in. (Whether or not that is right, or whether there should at least be a strict time limit on how long this measure is in force for is something else).
Returning to your idea – it wouldn’t stop the magistrates and judges having the same biases as / necessarily more understanding of cyclists than the jury.
And … perhaps the issue is the law itself? Not a lawyer / devil’s advocate (if not a contradiction) but just because a driver has killed a vulnerable road user *when the latter apparently did nothing wrong* may not mean they are guilty of anything currently.
Here it seems to have been accepted that the driver wasn’t breaking any laws at the time of collision. And presumably the “driver couldn’t stop in distance they could see” could be turned around to apply equally to the cyclists here. Given that, why would a judge convict?
No, you are being pedantry!
No, you are being pedantry!
A fair pedantic point…
A fair pedantic point…
chrisonabike wrote:
Which would be a valid point if he had stopped and the cyclists had hit him.
I’m a little surprised it
I’m a little surprised it even got to court, given that the expert seemed to be keen to go above and beyond in stating that the driver was “alert” given the circumstances. Unfortunately apparently stronger cases haven’t (see eg. Michael Mason case).
But given that was all accepted (maybe a judge wouldn’t?) and given there was no law-breaking (but that phone use…) i guess they’d be left saying “somehow the driver didn’t see them … and somehow they didn’t see him either.”
But if we was alert and
But if we was alert and couldn’t really see where he was going for whatever reason, surely the driver should have slowed right down to account for the conditions?
I knew what the trial verdict
I knew what the trial verdict would be before he went into the court. all they had to do was find a reason to let him off – anything will do, “they were not exactly behind each other when they were riding single file on the side of the lane” – OK, that will do the accident was their fault.
Drivers clear fellow driver
Drivers clear fellow driver of death by careless driving. You don’t have to be breaking the speed limit to drive carelessly. The defending lawyer is quite the scumbag to victim blame
Well it’s been said before
Well it’s been said before but the lawyer is only doing their job and they did it very well. I suspect this driver could afford a very good lawyer and this was obviously a good choice. As long as we have an adversarial justice system with many loopholes and an underfunded police force and CPS I am afraid that verdicts like this will continue to occur. The law needs to change to base competence and carefullness on obeying the highway code not on what other drivers think is acceptable.
One thing does occur to me though and that is that the family could bring a civil case against the driver where the highway code will be taken as a requirement rather than guidance. May be get a decent lawyer and coach the witnesses in how to describe a car travelling towards you at speed on your side of the road, not slowing down and leaving minimal room for you to move into to avoid being hit.
“Just doing their job” is an
“Just doing their job” is an awful justification for what so many lawyers do. They would happily get a mass murderer off on a technicality if it lined their own pockets. Its nothing to do with it being their job and everything to do with far too many people in society being amoral and justifying awful things as “someone elses fault”. Well if the police had done their job perfectly. If the prosecution was better. The jury decided etc etc.
Its just a convenient way to wash their conscience clean of the horrible work some of them do. You have the right to a fair trial. The best lawyers ensure you get the complete opposite.
No arguments from me but at
No arguments from me but at least some of the blame, if not most, needs to be laid at the people who employ these lawyers. That and the people who design and maintain the systems which allow it.
mctrials23 wrote:
Not a criminal lawyer, but very few of them are lining their pockets very thickly – it’s not generally that lucrative a line of work.
Because of the potential penalties for crime (including deprivation of liberty) the state has to prove crime beyond reasonable doubt. How fair do you think trials would be if you weren’t allowed a defence advocate, or if the prosecution only had to satisfy the judge / jury there’s a 50% chance you did it? The general principle is that we have chosen it’s better to have some murderers going free than many innocent people incarcerated at the hands of the state.
I’d recommend reading the Secret Barristers books for a primer of how it operates – imperfect though it may be.
Once again your life as a
Once again your life as a cyclist is worthless and then people wonder why I only cycle indoors or closed road events
john1967 wrote:
Well, I’d still wonder as statistically cycling is about as dangerous as being a pedestrian; presumably you don’t refuse to walk around because pedestrians are sometimes killed by drivers?
No but stats dont tell the
No but stats dont tell the whole story. I was riding up that way near Bentley last week, and maybe it was just i knew the case was due in court & you feel every close pass that bit more personally, because you knew someone who was killed on the exact same roads, doing the exact same thing you were
And I ended up cutting my ride short, because I just didn’t feel safe enough out there anymore.
Statistically nothing happened, but my head was saying sod this for a game of chance.
The problem here is empathy.
The problem here is empathy. Because so few people cycle or have a family member cycle, they don’t know what it’s like to have a car come towards you at 30mph without slowing. If anyone in the jury had experienced that, they would know the feeling and the thinking one has ‘is this person going to slow down?’ as they drive towards you on a narrow road.
Quite simply, the jury blame the victim because he must have been doing something incorrect because we who drive cars are a majority and therefore in the right.
This. I had a disagreement
This. I had a disagreement here with an oncoming driver who couldn’t see why proceeding towards me at 30mph was a problem (“I’m in the speed limit”). There’s room for a car and bike to pass, but it’s only comfortable if one of you is stationary.
Given thats not how the
Given thats not how the Highway Code works, if he is willing to admit that on camera then he should have his licence revoked as that should be a dangerous fail on a practial test.
This demonstrates clearly,
This demonstrates clearly, beyond any doubt, the staggering level of motonormativity in our society. The person indulging in behaviour known to kill and injure is held to a lower standard of care than the victims. The quotes from the defence lawyer and the forensic collision investigator indicate that they had decided that the driver was innocent, and the victims guilty, despite the evidence.
The similarities to the Mick Mason case are obvious: the same support for the driver and ignoring of the Highway Code and what any competent, careful driver would have done. The only difference is that this went to court in the normal course of events, while the Mick Mason case only got there because of Cycling UK.
In neither case was justice served, people who killed were not held accountable, and our roads became that little bit more dangerous.
If a car driver ploughs into
If a car driver ploughs into cyclists on a road the driver is at fault. End of. #motonormativity rules. I feel for all the families of the cyclists involved. Cars have taken over eveything everywhere. Cars are a socially accpted cult that kills 5 people and injures 82 every day on UK roads.
I think the “presumed
I think the “presumed liability” approach is a practical way forward – where the motorist is considered responsible by default (they could only avoid this if they can demonstrate the vulnerable road user is at fault). However this is only for insurance / civil claim purposes.
I think it is *just* possible that something like that could get through in the UK (within my lifetime).
And if it did I think it would be possible to finesse the inevitable push-back into “OK, you say it’s just too hard not to drive into pedestrians and cyclists? We can help you – but we’ll have to do that by taking road space for much safer cycling and pedestrian space, reducing speed limits in a redoing junctions…”
Of course that’s all hard to imagine from where we are! With “war on the motorist” and “congestion is damaging ‘growth’ and increasing pollution and the fix is ‘one more lane’ / we need the pavements for charging points and leads”. And “we want safety … by moving the vulnerable road users out of the way of the motorists (and in practice discouraging them from walking and cycling outside of designated recreational places)”…
A paradigm shift is required.
A paradigm shift is required…. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_4GZnGl55c&t=27s
chrisonabike wrote:
ftfy, If they can’t avoid cyclists and pedestrians I don’t want them on the road with me even when I’m in my car!
No they aren’t, if a car
No they aren’t, if a car driver was not speeding, not drunk and not on his phone and slowed down at a bend they are not at fault, as this jury affirmed
SVXY wrote:
If the driver does not slow down sufficiently, when entering a bend where their view of oncoming traffic is obscured, to be able to stop or take evasive action when they encounter a hazard, and so kills someone, then they are most definitely at fault. Simply repeating your manifestly incorrect interpretation of the law over and over does not make it any less incorrect.
Clearly our (new?) friend has
Clearly our (new?) friend has just kicked off panto season, and everyone’s happily joining in the familiar responses.
Oh yes they are! Oh no they aren’t!
And “he’s behind – sorry, right in front of – you! And despite being ‘there to be seen’ you didn’t see him! But there is nothing at all illegal about that and the driver did nothing wrong.”
A bit more than that
A bit more than that
They loved darkness more than light.
He did slow down, to 30mph ie
He did slow down, to 30mph ie half the speed limit of 60mph of that road, when he entered the bend. The lead cyclist also got through alright, sadly the cyclist behind him did not. Now there may be a case for a 20mph limit on single track roads going forward but that is not the law now
SVXY wrote:
And that was insufficient to give him time to stop when he encountered a hazard and so he killed somebody.
The front cyclist managed to
The front cyclist managed to get past him without injury even if sadly the cyclist behind did not
The first cyclist was not
The first cyclist was not injured because the car did not hit them. It still failed to stop before hitting the second & third cyclist.
The evidence suggested that there was a 1.1m gap between the car & the verge which the defense called “a comfortably passable gap”. The space between the car and the cyclist would be, at most, 0.7m. The highway code calls for a 1.5m gap between the car and the cyclist, at speeds below 30mph.
ChrisA wrote:
Unfortunately there is no specifically proscribed passing distance where oncoming traffic is concerned.
The 1.5m rule only applies to overtaking. An oversight IMO.
The 1.5m rule only applies to
The 1.5m rule only applies to overtaking
Unfortunately, it is in no sense ‘a rule’, only guidance which the motorist is at liberty, and is even encouraged by the police, to ignore. Remember Gloucestershire Police’s ‘the cyclist must have been inconvenienced by the close-passing’, and Kent Police’s even more radical ‘the cyclist must have been hit by the motorist or we won’t even glance at the video’! Furthermore, even when the HC/ associated legislation unambiguously proscribes driving practices (passing traffic lights at red, illegally crossing unbroken white lines, interacting with mobile devices, driving vehicles without valid MOT etc. etc., the police delight in ignoring the offences (no, I’m not about to subject you to the videos yet again!)
The HWC talks of “passing”
The HWC talks of “passing” (obviously in either direction) pedestrians & horses, but, as you say, specifies “overtaking” for cyclists.
Yet another case of inept phrasing by the authors.
HoarseMann wrote:
True, but on the other hand anyone with half an ounce of sense, anyone who’s a careful and competent driver, and anyone who’s not simply here to spew torrents of nonsense in an attempt to promote a pro-car agenda would realise that with oncoming traffic you need to leave more space, to account for closing speed.
As per the below the 1.5m gap
As per the below the 1.5m gap called for only applies to overtaking, not oncoming traffic
So as a careful & competent
So as a careful & competent driver you expect an oncoming vehicle to scrub the kerb whilst YOU pass at 30mph in the opposite direction leaving a two foot gap?
SVXY wrote:
In an absolute Christmas miracle, you’re actually correct for once. However, that does not change the fact that attempting to pass a group of cyclists with a maximum gap of 70 cm, closing to far less to the extent that the driver hits and kills one, at 30 mph, is de facto dangerous driving despite the jury’s clearly erroneous verdict.
No even the CPS did not
No even the CPS did not charge Mr Gibbs with dangerous driving given he was driving at 30mph in a 60mph zone. The jury then acquitted him of the careless driving he was charged with causing the sad death of the cyclist
SVXY wrote:
Well suffolk police seem to think differently
https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/suffolk/news/news/2025/april/man-charged-following-fatal-collision-in-bentley/
Emergency services were called shortly after 7pm on Wednesday 17 May 2023, to reports of a collision involving a car and two cyclists just off the A137 on Church Road in Bentley.
Police, ambulance and East Anglian Air Ambulance were all in attendance to the incident.
One cyclist, a man in his 40s, was airlifted to Addenbrooke’s Hospital, where he sadly died the next day, 18 May, despite the best efforts of medical personnel.
The other cyclist sustained minor injuries and was released from hospital after checks were conducted.
Thomas Gibbs, 42, of Church Road, Bentley, has been charged with causing death by dangerous driving and is due to appear at Ipswich Magistrates’ Court on Monday 19 May.
The police may have done
The police may have done initially, the CPS who are lawyers who actually know the details of the law rather than just enforce it like the police, had only ultimately charged him with death by careless driving by the time the case had reached Crown Court for trial
SVXY wrote:
Ah good, so you agree that the experts who actually know the details of the law were of the opinion that he was guilty of causing death by careless driving; he was acquitted by a jury that could have comprised solely ignorant car loving idiots, or people like you…but I repeat myself.
You’re not going to persuade
You’re not going to persuade them. I’d stop giving them the satisfaction.
Touche…to a degree… but
Touche…to a degree… but when someone is peddling blatant lies and rejoicing in the fact that someone has been killed and the killer has managed, absurdly, to get away scot-free it’s hard not to punch back. But yes, you’re right, he clearly does get off on being responded to so it probably is best to leave him to it and hope that he’ll piss off and get his sad little jollies elsewhere.
Rendel Harris wrote:
The CPS decided on the law there was enough evidence to charge him with causing death by careless but not dangerous driving. On the facts the jury acquitted him even of that
If the police and courts
If the police and courts continue failing in this way, eventually someone is going to ensure justice is done by alternative means.
We have the rule of law in
We have the rule of law in this country not the rule of the mob, the jury verdict must be respected
SVXY wrote:
Juries do not always reach the correct verdict, just ask the Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, Andrew Malkinson, all the Post Office employees who were sent to jail as a result of the Horizon scandal and the hundreds of others whose jury verdicts have been overturned.
By the way when Terence Duddy was given a prison sentence, quite rightly, for causing serious injury by careless driving under the rule of law you made several dozen posts on this site whining that it wasn’t fair, so apparently you only respect the rule of law when it favours drivers.
Quite. And even if the
Quite. And even if the verdict itself is respected, that doesn’t preclude raising questions about (potentially systemic) failures in the process that may have led to that verdict.
I’m hoping this one gets a
I’m hoping this one gets a retrial faster than those in the examples Rendel Lists; we need to remove this dangerous precedent an get a fresh jury to consider the sentencing guidelines and its definition of inappropriate speed.
Once a man is found innocent
Once a man is found innocent he cannot be retried ever again unless new and compelling evidence emerges. No signs of that in this case. Gibbs was also doing half the speed limit of 60mph for that road so no compelling evidence it was inappropriate
A dead body is all the
A dead body is all the evidence you need that it was inappropriate, or you arguing again Troll, that it is appropriate to kill someone!
No it isn’t. Just because a
No it isn’t. Just because a dead body results from a crash doesn’t mean the accused was guilty. The deceased may have been well over the speed limit for instance and in this case the jury decided that the speed Mr Gibbs was doing was not inappropriate as it was well below the speed limit for that road. So they acquitted him
Here we go again, they killed
Here we go again, they killed someone it was an inappropriate speed. Troll off!
The jury affirmed it was not
The jury affirmed it was not an inappropriate speed to do 30mph on a 60mph road heading into a bend, so in law it wasn’t
What part of Troll off do you
What part of Troll off do you not understand?
mdavidford wrote:
Only if you have evidence of such failures
To be fair to SVXY I think
To be fair to SVXY I think they were moaning about Duddy having to resign rather than the verdict and the sentence.
Bungle_52 wrote:
No, you might have missed it because they spread their myriad comments across multiple threads but they were definitely moaning about the sentence as well (I’m sure they would’ve moaned about the verdict as well if he hadn’t pleaded guilty), e.g. (two examples of many):
Rendel Harris wrote:
They more or less did – repeatedly claiming that “He didn’t perform an illegal manoeuvre”.
That’s true, thereby branding
That’s true, thereby branding Duddy a complete idiot who pleaded guilty when he hadn’t broken the law.
Well he didn’t! He just
Well he didn’t! He just needed to triple check in front of him before turning right for cyclists
SVXY wrote:
Also known as “checking”.
Just doing what the legal minimum standard is would do. Courts aren’t judging on Advanced Driving standards (although some on here have suggested that *that* should be the legal minimum). Lord knows, they’re not even judging on the written legal standards sometimes…
Of course if you want to flag up the tacit hypocrisy / internal contradictions of our goal of “mass motoring” as implemented now – or how we are balancing the ideas about “rights to travel”, public safety and the selling of “freedom as your own car” and what the public purse funds … we’re all ears.
More people drive cars in
More people drive cars in this country than cycle, that is a fact, so inevitably more funds will go towards cars. Nothing against cyclists or motorcyclists but the facts are that if you cycle you are 40 times more likely to be killed or seriously injured in a crash than the driver of a car and if you are a motorcylist 50 times more likely. Now in a free country nothing to stop you cycling or motorcyling but be aware doing so on a main road carries far more risk than driving a car does.
Yet all studies say that if
Yet all studies say that if your a cyclist you’ll live 5-10years longer than the average individual, which completely disagrees with your made up stats, Troll off!
Maybe but you can also cycle
Maybe but you can also cycle on exercise bikes, on quiet residential streets, along tracks and fields etc without going on the main road
You again, what part of Troll
You again, what part of Troll Off do you not understand!
Do I need to use some
Do I need to use some stronger than Troll Off!
No, because the condition
No, because the condition with which the sad git is afflicted provides him with a perverse gratification, which is greater the more severe the condemnation. He can only be deterred by a refusal to respond to his repetitive and facile ‘rage baiting’ comments
Wait – is the argument “more
Wait – is the argument “more people drive than cycle so the former shouldn’t have to obey the law with respect to the latter?” Or is it “the former shouldn’t actually get meaningful punishments”?
Or just “democracy – because lots of people do an activity the law that exists around doing that activity safely should be moot if people don’t like it”?
Could a “free country” exist where there is very high car ownership, yet people don’t have to have some “safety vs. access” debate regularly when people die on the roads – could there be another way of looking at this? https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/sustainable-safety/
Change and “numbers doing something right now”: I eat a lot of cake, that’s a fact, so inevitably more of my funds will go towards cake (and that can’t change)? Nothing against vegetables…
Hmm, but that idea can’t extend, can it? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OunBRdTIe3w&pp=0gcJCR4Bo7VqN5tD
Well that’s just a small part of one city. Clearly that kind of “plan for the environment you want” couldn’t extend across a whole town: https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2024/02/07/the-seville-cycling-revolution-a-blueprint-for-urban-transformation/
Definitely couldn’t work country-wide! https://www.holland-cycling.com/tips-and-info/finding-your-way/numbered-cycle-network
No but death by dangerous
No but death by dangerous cycling and serious injury by dangerous cycling should be charged and punished exactly the same as death by dangerous driving and serious injury by dangerous driving is
SVXY wrote:
I can’t argue with that. Most of us on this site believe that more people cycling is good for the nation in a number of ways and that is why statistics like the ones you have quoted are so upsetting to us. We believe that verdicts like this do nothing to address what we see as a problem and that is why we are so upset about it. We believe it is wrong that you can’t exercise you’re right to cycle on any road except a motorway without being at high risk of being killed by drivers who won’t take, what we see as, reasonable precautions not to collide with us.
The difference between us is that you think that a driver wanting to save a few minutes on their journey by taking risks with other peoples lives has every right to do so while we, as cyclists, think the opposite.
They’re made up statistics to
They’re made up statistics to suit their trolling, the fact is in all studies that cyclist live 5-10 years longer than the average individual.
They’re made up statistics to
They’re made up statistics to suit their trolling
Most quoted statistics are made up to some extent, in that nobody can be bothered to write or read all the provisos that should go with them. In this case, the standard retort would be: that’s because the people in good health who are predestined to live longer are more likely to be able to cycle around- whereas the unfortunate unfit ‘have to drive’, in CoaB’s phrase. Really, of course, the cyclists deserve to live longer and resent the thoughless police and drivers who conspire to take those deserved ‘5-10’ years away from us
I stand corrected. I’d
I stand corrected. I’d forgotten those. Thank you for the reminder.
Mainly about him having to
Mainly about him having to resign yes, I was not complaining about the verdict though in terms of sentence a driving ban would have sufficed in my view with a fine
The Guildford Four won on
The Guildford Four won on appeal as police interview evidence had been edited, the Birmingham six after forced confessions, Malkinson after DNA evidence was shown not to be his. There was no evidence of any flawed evidence in this case. Most of the PO employees pled guilty so no trial for juries to be involved in there anyway.
Duddy was not given an immediate prison sentence, he was given a suspended sentence and some community service and a driving ban in a magistrates court after he pled guilty. Thomas Gibbs was acquitted after pleading not guilty in a Crown court trial so the latter was more serious a case in that sense. A cyclist also died in the Gibbs case but the cyclist in the Duddy case did not die although they had some injuries. I did not say the verdict was wrong in the Duddy case, I said the sentence should just have been the driving ban and a fine
1.6 seconds: too short to
1.6 seconds: too short to mash the brake and move as far left as possible, but plenty of time for one cyclist to give a verbal warning and the others to respond.
The fatality took place on an
The fatality took place on an officially designated “Quiet Lane”,
Did this have a role in the accident ?
It should have had a role in
It should have had a role in the presentation by the prosecution and the deliberations of the jury.
Absolutely agree,
Absolutely agree, interesting that it was Side stepped by both sides
Meh, as far as I can tell,
Meh, as far as I can tell, the “Quiet lane” designation per se does not impose any particular additional requirements on drivers that would be recognised in law. You should always drive with care and consideration, and expect to encounter other road users (including vulnerable road users).
The point of designation is that it empowers local authorities to more easily apply further restrictions/changes (such as lower speed limits or introducing traffic calming) on designated roads.
At least in Suffolk, no they
At least in Suffolk, no they impose no additional requirements on drivers, many of them including part of this road are still NSL, id struggle to think of any that used traffic calming, beyond putting vulnerable road users in the way of vehicles. They are literally just signs on country lanes, that you may find has less traffic, or has a pleasant view to look at and thats all they are.
Church Rd is preferable than the A137 for sure, though you are inevitably forced to use the A137 to navigate that area at some point. Unless you off road via the woods.
“As night follows day, the
“As night follows day, the cause of this impact was the position of the cyclists,” Mr Leonard argued, suggesting his client had left “a comfortably passable gap” and the riders “should have been able to pass”.
I know they can’t prosecute on the basis of a counterfactual, but presumably if he only hit them because of the cyclists’ position, then he would also have hit a car coming the other way?
1.6 seconds is sufficient
1.6 seconds is sufficient time to react and emergency brake to a stop from 20 mph.
Regardless, all road users should be able to stop in one third the distance they can see along the road.
levestane wrote:
That’s quite moot, BRAKE research into reaction times has argued that the 0.67 seconds given as thinking time in the Highway Code is a severe underestimate and that in real world conditions drivers take an average of around 1.5 seconds to react, so in this case the driver would have barely touched the brake before he hit and killed the cyclist – and yet some idiots (well one idiot) still claim he was travelling at an appropriate speed for the road.
Good job the cammer was awake
Good job the cammer was awake