Cycling with earphones, yay or nay edition: Jeremy Vine panned for falling off bike and hitting pothole while wearing earbuds; Thibaut Pint-ot in the PSG Ultras; New Cervélo for Jumbo-Visma; Pogačar on for Track TT Olympics? + more on the live blog

111 thoughts on “Cycling with earphones, yay or nay edition: Jeremy Vine panned for falling off bike and hitting pothole while wearing earbuds; Thibaut Pint-ot in the PSG Ultras; New Cervélo for Jumbo-Visma; Pogačar on for Track TT Olympics? + more on the live blog”

1. If you told drivers that they
   If you told drivers that they couldn’t listen to music in their cars because it reduces awareness of surroundings when piloting 2 tons of metal, they’d look at you as if you were mad.

   And then tell you that if you wear earphones when cycling then you’re dangerous.

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2. I noticed when I first

   I noticed when I first started running with an ipod that the earphones blocked out the noise (not sound), so much so that I could hear my own heart beat and groundstrikes. I also had a much clearer idea of what was going on around me rather than just indistinctive loud traffic noise.

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3. I recommend being able to

   I recommend being able to hear as a cyclist / pedestrian, because … motor vehicles!

   As others have said, with plenty of headphones you can still hear somewhat.

   Inside a motor vehicle even if you aren’t listening to music / concentrating on your phone* you can’t generally hear much because a) metal and glass box b) your own motor / road noise.

   Still remember the driving lesson in the mist / fog I had – stopped at a junction, the instructor said “what ways can you tell if someone’s coming?” and after a guess or two by me, just wound down the windows.

   * I haven’t had my coffee yet, sorry.

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4. Presumably, those people

   Presumably, those people criticising JV for wearing earbuds are fully against people with hearing difficulties using the road as well. As long as you look around you often and check behind you before performing a maneouvre, then there’s no reason that a deaf person can’t be as safe as anyone else whilst cycling/driving.

   It’s quite bizarre as cyclists have so much more awareness of their surroundings than drivers due to their elevated position, greater mobility and not having chunks of metal obscuring their vision. To claim that cyclists have to rely on hearing to use the roads is laughable.

   If you take JV’s crash as an example – how would his hearing have enabled him to avoid a pothole?

   Out of curiosity – has anyone here had a cycle crash that would have been avoided if they could hear better?

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   • hawkinspeter wrote:

     Presumably, those people criticising JV for wearing earbuds are fully against people with hearing difficulties using the road as well. As long as you look around you often and check behind you before performing a maneouvre, then there’s no reason that a deaf person can’t be as safe as anyone else whilst cycling/driving.

     — hawkinspeter

     I don’t have a problem with blind people walking on the pavement but I would think it strange if a sighted person insisted on wearing a blindfold.

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     • Backladder wrote:

       I don’t have a problem with blind people walking on the pavement but I would think it strange if a sighted person insisted on wearing a blindfold.

       — Backladder

       What about if a sighted person chose to stare at their phone screen whilst walking? Would that cause you some element of surprise?

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       • hawkinspeter wrote:

         I don’t have a problem with blind people walking on the pavement but I would think it strange if a sighted person insisted on wearing a blindfold.

         — hawkinspeter

         What about if a sighted person chose to stare at their phone screen whilst walking? Would that cause you some element of surprise?

         — Backladder

         It doesn’t surprise me as I see it all the time, I do think they are a bit daft for not paying attention to their surroundings, they can look at their phone whilst standing still or sitting down.

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   • hawkinspeter wrote:

     Presumably, those people criticising JV for wearing earbuds are fully against people with hearing difficulties using the road as well.

     — hawkinspeter

     Sorry HP, I usually agree with you but that argument is always brought out regarding this issue and it makes no sense at all. Nobody is saying deaf people shouldn’t use the road or that they can’t use the road, that’s not the same as saying it’s a sensible idea voluntarily to choose to have one of your senses blocked off when in a highly sense-dependent environment. It’s highly emotive to say oh, if you don’t agree with headphone wearing then you want to stop a group of disabled people riding but it’s simply not the case.

     Personally I only know one deaf person (aged 91!) who rides a bike and he definitely says that he finds it a disadvantage not being able to hear the traffic around him compared to when he had his hearing (up to about ten years ago). I would tend to agree, riding in London I rely on my hearing as a secondary safety mechanism to hear what’s coming up behind me, usually I can tell what type/size of vehicle it is and that helps me prepare for the possibility of a close pass, any draft issues there might be et cetera. I would not say that it’s that dangerous to cycle with earphones (I did when I was younger), but in my opinion it is a little bit safer to cycle without them, and in as dangerous an environment as London traffic every tiny safety advantage I can accrue, I’m having. That doesn’t mean in any way that I don’t think deaf people should cycle.

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     • But thats your opinion Rendel

       But thats your opinion Rendel and there is literally no evidence to support it one way or another.   At *worst* you are still going to be more aware of your surroundings than a motorist.   Full face motorbike helmets muffle hearing quite effectively but no-ones telling them to drill holes over their ears to hear better.

       If we even remotely hint that its somehow less safe for us to use earphones then it just becomes another stick for the anti-cyclists to beat us with.   On balance thats why I choose to kick back hard against it.

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       • Respectfully, my evidence to

         Respectfully, my evidence to support it is my lived experience which for me shows that I have a slightly better awareness of my environment when my hearing isn’t blocked (I agree motorcycle helmets do impair hearing just as badly and I did find that a bit of an encumbrance when I rode a motorcycle). Again, this is getting emotive in the same way as claiming that anyone who says headphones might not be a good idea wants deaf people not to ride. Yes, maybe anti-cyclists will use it as a stick to beat us with, in fact they already do, that doesn’t mean I’m anti-cyclist and it doesn’t mean I can’t share my opinion on it. I’m not saying that it should be illegal to ride with earphones, I’m just saying that in my experience it’s a little bit safer to do without, that’s all.

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     • Rendel Harris wrote:

       Sorry HP, I usually agree with you but that argument is always brought out regarding this issue and it makes no sense at all. Nobody is saying deaf people shouldn’t use the road or that they can’t use the road, that’s not the same as saying it’s a sensible idea voluntarily to choose to have one of your senses blocked off when in a highly sense-dependent environment. It’s highly emotive to say oh, if you don’t agree with headphone wearing then you want to stop a group of disabled people riding but it’s simply not the case.

       Personally I only know one deaf person (aged 91!) who rides a bike and he definitely says that he finds it a disadvantage not being able to hear the traffic around him compared to when he had his hearing (up to about ten years ago). I would tend to agree, riding in London I rely on my hearing as a secondary safety mechanism to hear what’s coming up behind me, usually I can tell what type/size of vehicle it is and that helps me prepare for the possibility of a close pass, any draft issues there might be et cetera. I would not say that it’s that dangerous to cycle with earphones (I did when I was younger), but in my opinion it is a little bit safer to cycle without them, and in as dangerous an environment as London traffic every tiny safety advantage I can accrue, I’m having. That doesn’t mean in any way that I don’t think deaf people should cycle.

       — Rendel Harris

       Nobody is making that argument *yet*.

       Really, I find it’s the same old victim blaming attitude for people to blame cyclists for not paying attention if they choose to wear headphones, when in reality cyclists are far more aware than most road users. It seems that cyclists are the only group that are singled out for ear-covering shenanigans, even though drivers are usually totally insulated from outside sounds (and some drivers have a poor track record of even looking around them to compensate for that). Motorcyclists have their ears completely covered by full face helmets, yet the subject of their hearing is rarely addressed even though helmet intercoms are openly sold to allow bikers to talk to each other over the loud noise of the wind and their vehicles.

       Hearing is way down the list of things that help safety whilst cycling. I can’t think of any real life scenario I’ve had that my hearing enabled me to avoid a crash, whereas I’ve had a few close calls when I’ve relied on hearing and not looked sufficiently.

       I can see why people would think that hearing improves safety, and I certainly find it more pleasant to cycle whilst being able to hear, but I bet there’s far more crashes caused by improperly adjusted bike components compared to cycling with headphones.

       I suppose what snaps my cranks is that people get very judgemental about cyclists needing highly tuned senses and perfect bike handling skills to be able to cycle in traffic. It’s akin to helmet bullying (“that idiot isn’t wearing a helmet”) and can only lead to less people cycling and more people choosing to stay in the cocoon of a car. Instead we should recognise that cycling is safe and easy and that people with disabilities can do it even though they may be deaf, or only have one arm or one leg etc.

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       • hawkinspeter wrote:

          

         I suppose what snaps my cranks 

         — hawkinspeter

         some people really need to let go of the Ultegra issues.

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   • hawkinspeter wrote:

     To claim that cyclists have to rely on hearing to use the roads is laughable.

     — hawkinspeter

     Yes indeed it is. To claim that being able to hear properly is a useful secondary defence mechanism is not.

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     • Rendel Harris wrote:

       To claim that cyclists have to rely on hearing to use the roads is laughable.

       — Rendel Harris

       Yes indeed it is. To claim that being able to hear properly is a useful secondary defence mechanism is not.

       — hawkinspeter

       Defence against what though?

       If you hear a vehicle approaching aggressively behind you, would you throw yourself to one side automatically?

       I much prefer to cycle with my hearing unabated and it does improve your awareness of what’s behind you, but that often means that you don’t have to look behind so often (though using a handlebar end mirror makes it quicker and easier to look behind, so I think that I check behind more often due to that). When I have used headphones, I found that the biggest issue was when trying to cross a road, I couldn’t hear if a vehicle was approaching from around a corner, but that just meant that I had to stop and think about the junction rather than just heading straight across because I could hear nothing approaching.

       Hearing allows you to make assumptions about your surroundings that may or may not be correct, so it’s recommended to use your eyes instead. That’s why when you want to turn right, you should always look even if your ears tell you that there’s nothing approaching.

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       • hawkinspeter wrote:

         Defence against what though?

         If you hear a vehicle approaching aggressively behind you, would you throw yourself to one side automatically?

         — hawkinspeter

         No, but hearing a vehicle driving up aggressively (or hearing that it’s a bus or HGV) does alert me to look round and check what is coming if it’s safe to do so and also to be ready to brace against the draft and expect the likelihood of a closer pass than with a car if it’s an HGV or a bus. As I said, it’s a secondary defence mechanism that alerts me to use my primary defence mechanisms.

         Just remembered one instance where I reckon I might have been a goner without my hearing: cycling up Hartside Pass in Cumbria in 2018, halfway up thick cloud blew in reducing visibility to about 20 metres and I heard what was clearly a truck approaching from behind and from the engine note obviously going at high speed, in that case I did virtually throw myself over to the verge just before a Jewson lorry came thundering out of the mist at a ridiculously reckless speed for the conditions, missing me by so little that a loose strap on the tarpaulin flicked my shoulder. An extreme example and I know that most people would (I hope) have the sense to remove their earphones in such conditions, but being able to hear properly was definitely a (possibly life-saving) advantage that day.

         Sadly I didn’t have a camera on board, they had disappeared into the fog before I had time to get the registration plate, and lying bastards Jewson claimed that they had no records of any of their lorries in that area at the time. One of my prime motivators for investing in a camera, that incident!

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         • Rendel Harris wrote:

           No, but hearing a vehicle driving up aggressively (or hearing that it’s a bus or HGV) does alert me to look round and check what is coming if it’s safe to do so and also to be ready to brace against the draft and expect the likelihood of a closer pass than with a car if it’s an HGV or a bus. As I said, it’s a secondary defence mechanism that alerts me to use my primary defence mechanisms.

           Just remembered one instance where I reckon I might have been a goner without my hearing: cycling up Hartside Pass in Cumbria in 2018, halfway up thick cloud blew in reducing visibility to about 20 metres and I heard what was clearly a truck approaching from behind and from the engine note obviously going at high speed, in that case I did virtually throw myself over to the verge just before a Jewson lorry came thundering out of the mist at a ridiculously reckless speed for the conditions, missing me by so little that a loose strap on the tarpaulin flicked my shoulder. An extreme example and I know that most people would (I hope) have the sense to remove their earphones in such conditions, but being able to hear properly was definitely a (possibly life-saving) advantage that day.

           Sadly I didn’t have a camera on board, they had disappeared into the fog before I had time to get the registration plate, and lying bastards Jewson claimed that they had no records of any of their lorries in that area at the time. One of my prime motivators for investing in a camera, that incident!

           — Rendel Harris

           Glad you avoided it! That does sound(!) like your hearing helped you out that time.

           I rally against the “cyclists shouldn’t wear headphones because safety” attitude as most of the people saying it are non-cyclists who don’t care about improving road safety in any meaningful capacity, but it’s easy for them to spot a cyclist using headphones. It then gets picked up by cyclists who naturally think that hearing is a vital sense out on the roads, and so it gets repeated and amplified. It just seems overblown when arguably correct tyre pressure is far more important for cycling safely.

   • hawkinspeter wrote:

      

     Out of curiosity – has anyone here had a cycle crash that would have been avoided if they could hear better?

     — hawkinspeter

     Does not listening your mam/dad/husband/wife’s best given advice count as not hearing

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     • Mr Hoopdriver wrote:

       Does not listening your mam/dad/husband/wife’s best given advice count as not hearing

       — Mr Hoopdriver

       I’d classify that as willfully ignoring

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5. I wouldn’t do it myself as I

   I wouldn’t do it myself as I use a bluetooth speaker hanging off my handlebars which also helps warn pedestrians of my approach.

   My presumption is that anyone who does usually doesn’t do so with fully noise cancelling headphones and can thus hear other noise around them.

   As others have said now and in the past, no one would say that drivers aren’t allowed to drive with closed windows and radios/music, both of which cause far more external noise blockage.

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   • mitsky wrote:

     I wouldn’t do it myself as I use a bluetooth speaker hanging off my handlebars which also helps warn pedestrians of my approach.

     — mitsky

     I hate it SO MUCH when people are walking or cycling or scootering around with a bluetooth speaker… 

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     • But it goes so well with the

       But it goes so well with the purple underlighting he’s got on his chopper…

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     • The speaker is the size of my

       The speaker is the size of my fist, not really that loud (like a proper speaker),  about the same level of noise as a motor vehicle makes.

       If that really bothers You so much for the few seconds You might hear it as we cross paths… #FirstWorldProblems  

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   • Ugh, that’s even worse. The

     Ugh, that’s even worse. The world is irritating enough without having somebody else’s choice of music being enforced on you. The idea that it’s acceptable to go about blaring music from your bike or car or on the bus is baffling and infantile. Have a bit of consideration for those around you. 

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     • Brauchsel wrote:

       Ugh, that’s even worse. The world is irritating enough without having somebody else’s choice of music being enforced on you. The idea that it’s acceptable to go about blaring music from your bike or car or on the bus is baffling and infantile. Have a bit of consideration for those around you. 

       — Brauchsel

       You must love supermarkets, especially in the months leading up to Xmas.

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       • hawkinspeter wrote:

         Ugh, that’s even worse. The world is irritating enough without having somebody else’s choice of music being enforced on you. The idea that it’s acceptable to go about blaring music from your bike or car or on the bus is baffling and infantile. Have a bit of consideration for those around you. 

         — hawkinspeter

         You must love supermarkets, especially in the months leading up to Xmas.

         — Brauchsel

         Have you not heard of online shopping?

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         • Backladder wrote:

           Have you not heard of online shopping?

           — Backladder

           No, that’s blissfully silent and doesn’t involve piped music.

         • What’s wrong with piped music

           What’s wrong with piped music?  Speak up there, I can’t hear you!

         • Much more bearable piped

           Much more bearable piped music is available of course…

       • hawkinspeter wrote:

         You must love supermarkets, especially in the months leading up to Xmas.

         — hawkinspeter

         There is a selection of songs that I hate particularly because they were on a very short rotation when I worked very long shifts in a supermarket many years ago. 

         Supermarket music is less annoying though, because a) I’ve chosen to be there and it’s to be expected and b) it’s at least intelligible rather than mostly bass thumping from a car or a tinny buzzing at various distances from a bike/pedestrian who needs to soundtrack his (almost always his) journey and fuck what anyone else wants. It’s remarkably hard to concentrate on anything else when something is nagging away at your peripheral hearing. 

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         • Brauchsel wrote:

           There is a selection of songs that I hate particularly because they were on a very short rotation when I worked very long shifts in a supermarket many years ago. 

           Supermarket music is less annoying though, because a) I’ve chosen to be there and it’s to be expected and b) it’s at least intelligible rather than mostly bass thumping from a car or a tinny buzzing at various distances from a bike/pedestrian who needs to soundtrack his (almost always his) journey and fuck what anyone else wants. It’s remarkably hard to concentrate on anything else when something is nagging away at your peripheral hearing. 

           — Brauchsel

           I get easily bored by music if I hear it too often and I prefer music with unusual beats (think J Dilla) or time signatures (Unsquare Dance?) and so I hate with a passion the generic, regurgitated poppy Xmas hits that get forced upon us every year. Yes, it’s easy for grandmas to clap along to and it has a traditional song structure with a sing-a-long chorus and that’s why I hate it.

         • hawkinspeter wrote:

           I get easily bored by music if I hear it too often and I prefer music with unusual beats (think J Dilla) or time signatures (Unsquare Dance?) …

           — hawkinspeter

           Sounds like you should check out Clown Core.

           Apologies in advance.

         • andystow wrote:

           I get easily bored by music if I hear it too often and I prefer music with unusual beats (think J Dilla) or time signatures (Unsquare Dance?) …

           — andystow

           Sounds like you should check out Clown Core.

           Apologies in advance.

           — hawkinspeter

           That’s a bit too techno for my liking. I’m a big lover of old school funk and hip hop (ATCQ for the win), but have been branching out into a bit of math rock as Mrs HawkinsPeter loves her heavy rock and we’ve been to ArcTangent festival a few times now. Just tapping my foot along to some Meshuggah

     • The speaker is the size of my

       The speaker is the size of my fist, not really that loud (like a proper speaker),  about the same level of noise as a motor vehicle makes.

       If that really bothers You so much for the few seconds You might hear it as we cross paths… #FirstWorldProblems 

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       • mitsky wrote:

         If that really bothers You so much for the few seconds You might hear it as we cross paths… #FirstWorldProblems 

         — mitsky

         We both live in what used to be called the First World. 

         If we do cross paths, how about I spit on you? I don’t have any contagious diseases, it’s just a bit of liquid. Might piss on your wheels when you park up, it’ll dry off.

         Entitled childish arseholes who “need” to inflict their choice of music on everyone around aren’t the biggest thing wrong in the world, no. But day-to-day life here in the developed world would be that little bit nicer if more people showed a little more consideration for the people around them. You’re not in a film, you don’t need a soundtrack. 

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6. I pretty much always cycle

   I pretty much always cycle with a single bluetooth earphone in my my left ear. I can hear podcasts or music and still have an excellent idea of what’s going on around me in terms of traffic. Awareness of what is going on around you is so much better on a bike than in a car, but it does help if you are actually alert and in the moment.

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7. Personally the thought of

   Personally the thought of cycling with earphones makes me very uncomfortable.

   However I get that it works for some people and no-one including Dave the troll on Twitter can point to any stastical evidence that it makes a jot of difference to the risk of being hit by an ignorant  oblivious driver.  So in reality its even more reductive than a Hi-Viz conversation.

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8. How would not wearing

   How would not wearing headphones have helped him avoid a pothole disguised under a puddle?

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   • It’s like hearing better when

     It’s like hearing better when you put your glasses on – he can smell them from further away when he’s not using headphones.

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   • brooksby wrote:

     How would not wearing headphones have helped him avoid a pothole disguised under a puddle?

     — brooksby

     rain falling on deep water sounds different.

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     • wycombewheeler wrote:

       How would not wearing headphones have helped him avoid a pothole disguised under a puddle?

       — wycombewheeler

       rain falling on deep water sounds different.

       — brooksby

       You can hear the sound of rain on water over the sound of the motor traffic?!

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9. I find a helmet reduces my

   I find a helmet reduces my awareness of what’s around me never mind ear phones. I suspect people who have reduced perception in any of their senses develop coping strategies and make better use fo their other senses to compensate so it’s not really a fair comparison.

   Then, of course, there is the distraction element. I find I need all my concentration whenever I’m on the road, as a cyclist, driver or pedestrian, in order to minimise the chances of an “accident” most of which are avoidable in my opinion.

   As with helmets it’s a personal choice but I don’t see the harm in suggesting that earphones are not a good idea.

   Finally, never ride through puddles. If you have to then do so slowly and be ready for anything.

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   • Interesting.  I don’t find

     Interesting.  I don’t find helmets particularly distracting – but OTOH I haven’t regularly worn one for some years now (mostly because I can avoid riding with vehicles for some parts of every journey living in North Edinburgh).

     What I do find makes a difference to awareness is riding position – being more upright I find it easier to observe.  I think that’s both due to where you’re naturally looking (obviously in a deep tuck you’re looking at the ground with your eyes in a neutral position) but also being more comfortable in general / closer to a natural walking body position.

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     • I should say – more upright

       I should say – more upright on my city hack (a “hybrid-style” – so bars about the same height as the saddle).  On the recumbent the angle of the top half of my body could make this more “looking at the sky” – although looking straight ahead still feels easier / more comfortable than doing so when in the drops on a more “sporty” upright / DF bike.

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   • Bungle_52 wrote:

     I find a helmet reduces my awareness of what’s around me never mind ear phones.

     — Bungle_52

     Is this your helmet?

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     • andystow wrote:

       I find a helmet reduces my awareness of what’s around me never mind ear phones.

       — andystow

       Is this your helmet?— Bungle_52

       Only if he routinely rides on canal towpaths

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10. Blocking your ears with

    Blocking your ears with headphones doesn’t seem sensible when cycling and therefore being a slower vehicle than surrounding traffic. I know a couple of people that use the bone conducting type of headphone that seems more sensible. If I see someone cycling with over the ear headphones though, I wonder if they are gunning for a Darwin award.

    If I am driving with the radio on I can still hear ambient sound and also have mirrors, giving additional awareness of anything from behind.

    That said I don’t see how headphones played any role in gameshow host, radio presenter and brother of Edinburgh fringe winning comedian, Jeremy Vine not seeing a pothole hidden by a puddle.

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    • I wouldn’t do it personally

      I wouldn’t do it personally (I want every sense I have to help me avoid the inevitable idiot-piloted SUV with my name on it), but my two thoughts on the subject are:

      • A cyclist with anything other than noise-cancelling headphones is probably more aware of their surroundings than a driver in a modern car – especially if it’s a luxury/business saloon with loads of noise insulation. I’ll have to defer to other posters because I can’t currently find it, but I have in years prior seen linked articles/studies (I think it was Australian) suggesting that a cyclist listening to heavy-metal was more aware of ambient sounds than a driver was with their windows up and thier radio off.
      • It is considered perfectly safe by the DVLA and the British Government for someone who’s utterly stone deaf to be in sole control of a 2.5 ton  metal box capable of speeds in excess of 150mph. If that’s safe, I cannot see how someone on a 10kg bike, unlikely to exceed 15mph, is anything like as dangerous as people like to suggest.

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      • BalladOfStruth wrote:

        I wouldn’t do it personally

        — BalladOfStruth

        So the rest of that was pointless posturing.

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        • Adam Sutton wrote:

          So the rest of that was pointless posturing.

          — Adam Sutton

          First of all; was that necessary? As someone who complains about how people treat them here, do you not think that responses like that to someone engaging you in debate in good faith might be why?

          But no, it’s not “pointless posturing”, it’s about proportionality – I can say that I wouldn’t do something myself whilst also maintaining that it doesn’t warrant the attitude it has towards it. If we’re talking about risk presented to others, then like I said – if someone driving a massive Range Rover around at 30-60mph whilst being stone deaf doesn’t meet the threshold for public outrage, then in my opinion it’s utterly mental to suggest that someone riding a 10kg bike at sub-15mph with reduced hearing somehow does. Even if I wouldn’t do it myself.

          Additionally, if you’re going to start condemning certain behaviours, then you also have to ask “why” and then carry that logic forward and apply it everywhere else it’s relevant. If you’re condemning cyclists wearing headphones because you think there should be a minimum threshold for situational awareness, then you kind of have to apply that to cars too:

          Should we review whether those reduced/no hearing should be allowed to drive?

          Should we ban car infotainment systems/radios?

          I’ve mentioned noise-cancelling headphones before, but I promise you I’m more aware of ambient sounds with my Sennhieser open-back, over-ears on than I was just sat in my old 4 Series, so should there be limits on how much sound insulation cars should be able to have? A ban on windows going all the way up?

          If the answer to all those questions is “no”, then it does beg the question as to what’s wrong with the much less dangerous headphone-wearing cyclist.

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          • (No subject)

            

          • How mature. Dunno what else I

            How mature. Dunno what else I was expecting tbh…

      • Don’t forget also that while

        Don’t forget also that while the motor vehicle has door wing mirrors (which of course you can also fit to your bike…) it also has A-pillars etc. reducing how effectively you can see.

        Cyclists need to be more aware when on the road – because motor vehicles.  Unless moving at high speed (wind noise in your own ears) cycling doesn’t produce much noise (you oil your chain / adjust your brakes, right?).

        Motor vehicle operators should be more aware (because they pose a greater danger to others).  However they’re protected relative to pedestrians / cyclists so tend to feel more secure / may be less alert.  Their vehicles produce quite a lot of noise which (unless you’re driving e.g. a 2CV or  motorbike) they are insulated against – and that will also cut down other ambient noise.

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11. Ref Ineos branding evolution,

    Ref Ineos branding evolution, it’s understandable that they want to move away from their original 2019 launch kit. First thing I thought when I saw it:

     

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12. Here’s an article literally

    Here’s an article literally ranking cars on how good they are at keeping out outside noise.  https://www.whatcar.com/news/the-uks-quietest-cars-revealed/n17918 

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    • It isn’t about the car

      It isn’t about the car blocking outside sounds rather the refinement of the car, arguably something that would actually aid in hearing ambient and outside sounds.

      Taking the focus review as example:

      “Ford has worked hard to reduce noise and vibration inside the Focus. The three-cylinder petrol engines, especially the 1.5, are pretty smooth and produce only a background thrum under hard acceleration; the 1.5 diesel is grumblier at idle but no worse than its rivals, and quiet at higher speeds.

      There’s a bit of wind flutter over the Focus’s door mirrors on the motorway, but the suspension works reasonably quietly and tyre noise is as well suppressed as it is in a Golf; overall, it’s a much more hushed companion than an Octavia.”

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      • Adam Sutton wrote:

        It isn’t about the car blocking outside sounds rather the refinement of the car, arguably something that would actually aid in hearing ambient and outside sounds.

        — Adam Sutton

        Really?  I appreciate car manufacturers want to make it quieter on the inside and have some motivation for reducing engine noise / tyre noise in general.  But unless you’ve got big ears and regularly bang along on your bike at 18mph upwards I’d have thought you can still hear better than being sat in a car.

        Perhaps a road.cc noise shootout is in order?

        You can certainly hear electric cars (much less engine noise than ICE) as soon as they’re moving at normal speeds because road noise.  If people aren’t going deaf inside the car from that noise …

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        • chrisonabike wrote:

          Really?  I appreciate car manufacturers want to make it quieter on the inside and have some motivation for reducing engine noise / tyre noise in general.  But unless you’ve got big ears and regularly bang along on your bike at 18mph upwards I’d have thought you can still hear better than being sat in a car.

          Perhaps a road.cc noise shootout is in order?

          You can certainly hear electric cars (much less engine noise than ICE) as soon as they’re moving at normal speeds because road noise.  If people aren’t going deaf inside the car from that noise …

          — chrisonabike

          Maybe read the reviews, unless you want to frame it incorrectly like Steve that is. With regards comparing cycling to driving that’s apples and oranges, compare a modern car with its older contempary.

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          • I shall (I’m decades behind

            I shall (I’m decades behind on the state of cars) … and apologies if you were off on a different tangent about that – but the original road.cc article was about some (unaccountably famous) presenter on a bike and people complaining about cyclists wearing earphones.  Hence the “but people seem to think it’s OK in cars though?” – and comparing driving a car and cycling.

            FWIW I’m a “listen to the surroundings” type anyway and I’d love to be walking / cycling more often in an environment where this didn’t just mean “mostly to vehicle engine / road noise”.  (I love the incidental sounds of e.g. this urban environment)

      • So, to make sure I’m

        So, to make sure I’m understanding, they are designed to block out the noise of the tyres on the road – which comes from outside the cabin of the car – but to let in other noises from outside the cabin of the car?  How does that work?

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        • Steve K wrote:

          So, to make sure I’m understanding, they are designed to block out the noise of the tyres on the road – which comes from outside the cabin of the car – but to let in other noises from outside the cabin of the car?  How does that work?

          — Steve K

          If you’d actually read it-

          The serenity of some of the choices is dependent on the suspension and tyres they’re fitted with, so make sure you stick with what’s recommended.  

          It isn’t about blocking noise but generating noise. A car today has the same windows as a car from decades back, (unless you’re in a maybach or something extremely high end). If you have cheap tyres that generate a lot of noise and an engine as rough as a 1980’s ford 1.3 with tappets dancing an Irish jig under your bonnet, your awareness beyond that will be limited.

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    • I can usually understand what

      I can usually understand what someone says to me if I’ve stopped my bike and they’ve started talking to me before I stop my music. I guarantee that wouldn’t be the case in a Wankpanzer luxury SUV with all the windows up, even with music playing at a low volume, or off.

      There’s a reason that people still use the universal “roll down your window” hand signal. It’s so that the person inside the car can hear something quieter than a siren.

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13. Whether or not I listen to
    Whether or not I listen to music while cycling has no influence on if I die at the hands of a driver. Cars shouldn’t be coming close to me regardless of if I’m wearing headphones. I’ve been knocked off a couple of times by cars creeping up behind me, and once by a lorry turning left and squeezing me out. They immediately told me I shouldn’t have headphones on and should have a helmet, which is none of their business. I injured my head quite badly one time and I believe that the headphones actually helped cushion the blow to my ears.

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    • You’ve had a lot of shit

      You’ve had a lot of shit happen to you….

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      • NotNigel wrote:

        You’ve had a lot of shit happen to you….

        — NotNigel

        Allegedly.

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        • Of course.

          Of course.

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      • NotNigel wrote:

        You’ve had a lot of shit happen to you….

        — NotNigel

        Not as much as everyone’s hero, Rendel

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    • .

      .

      Sounds a tough one, Ren Dell. Take care of yourself.

      .

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      • .

        .

        PS, Rendy – did you wear the headphones over the headband?

        .

        If so – it must be getting quite bulky up there.

        .

        Good job there’s no head hair to make things even worse.

        .

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    • No helmet and you’re had a
      No helmet and you’re had a head injury from cycling, natural selection and all that

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14. I think headphones are an

    I think headphones are an individual choice. Many years ago, I used to use them. Stopped later as I found I was enjoying the music too much and hence distracted. Not dangerous for not hearing cars, but for being tempted to start headbanging and air guitar. Illegal where I live, anyway.

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    • Ear buds or whatever they

      Ear buds or whatever they call them now, are illegal, that is, not air guitar…

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      • Geoff Ingram wrote:

        Ear buds or whatever they call them now, are illegal, that is, not air guitar…

        — Geoff Ingram

        Trust the government to get it wrong!

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      • I was worried for a moment

        I was worried for a moment there, clarification definitely appreciated!

         

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15. Nay for me as in many

    Nay for me as in many junctions help me, but here the problem was tiny brompton wheels, possibly on narrow tires.

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16. CTC on Headphones

    CTC on Headphones

    In response to Mayor Boris Johnson’s portrayal of headphone-wearing cyclists as a “scourge”, CTC has identified 4 cyclists deaths out of the 440 which have occurred in the past 4 years where it is suspected that the cyclist was wearing headphones.  One was hit by one of two drivers racing at 80 mph (more than twice the local speed limit), another was killed on a bridleway crossing of a railway line, and it’s by no means clear what role (if any) the use of headphones played in the other two (although it appears likely that headphone use played a part in at least one of them).

    There is some Dutch evidence suggesting that cyclists are more at risk when wearing headphones, by c40% (although another source suggests that the safety disbenefits of distraction due to music, mobile phone use etc are only detectable among younger cyclists).  Still, what this doesn’t tell us is whether cyclists are any more at risk from wearing headphones than pedestrians are, and therefore whether headphone-wearing is any more problematic for cycling than for crossing the road.

    In the absence of better evidence, CTC’s view is that headphone wearing is inadvisable, particularly if listening at high volumes and/or headphones that completely shut out external sound.  However, the idea that headphone-wearing cyclists are any more of a “scourge” than headphone-wearing pedestrians is not borne out by any evidence we know of.

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17. Headphone in left ear. 

    Headphone in left ear.   Strap that joins it to the right earphone goes under my hrm so if I do need to pull the left one out it doesn’t get lost.  (Usually to chat to someone)

    I can hear perfectly well when a car is behind me and when it’s coming past.    If for whatever reason I’m in the right lane for a period of time I’ll take it out so I can hear cars on my left.

    I wouldn’t have both in as that would cut me off too much from the outside world.

    The bone conductor ones I tried suffered from wind noise.

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18. If people are going to

    If people are going to complain about cyclists wearing earphones, I’d like to point them to pedestrians wearing earphones. They are completely unable to hear my bell.

    In those scenarios I slow down and wait until there is plenty of space to pass them*.

    I don’t squeeze past them just because they can’t hear me, because that would be unsafe.

    *On one of the few sections of shared use path that I make use of

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    • No, but you see, you can’t be

      No, but you see, you can’t be considerate of other road users as their vehicles (shoes) are smaller than yours (bicycle) and therefore they are worth less as humans. 

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      • They’re humans?

        They’re humans?

        They can’t be – they appear out of nowhere.   Not that I can see them due to the lack of hi viz, lighting or shoe reflectors.

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        • Clem Fandango wrote:

          They’re humans?

          They can’t be – they appear out of nowhere.   Not that I can see them due to the lack of hi viz, lighting or shoe reflectors.

          — Clem Fandango

          You’re thinking of ninjas.

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        • Clem Fandango wrote:

          They’re humans?

          They can’t be – they appear out of nowhere.   Not that I can see them due to the lack of hi viz, lighting or shoe reflectors.

          — Clem Fandango

          shoe lights are cheap, there’s no excuse for not having them!

          https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1409056526/croc-lights-croc-headlight-charms?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_uk_en_gb_e-jewelry-brooches_pins_and_clips&utm_custom1=_k_Cj0KCQiA7OqrBhD9ARIsAK3UXh33zLdwHHzs87hFFVTHTs9cGJl1FdTqofpcbbUsY7TAbzUA7ewDSSQaAmDJEALw_wcB_k_&utm_content=go_12581722460_118277570143_507934400876_pla-347319009580_c__1409056526engb_534016384&utm_custom2=12581722460&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7OqrBhD9ARIsAK3UXh33zLdwHHzs87hFFVTHTs9cGJl1FdTqofpcbbUsY7TAbzUA7ewDSSQaAmDJEALw_wcB

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          • Perhaps the police could give

            Perhaps the police could give them out.

19. I ride an ebike and wear
    I ride an ebike and wear hearing aids.

    Thank fuck I’m not on twitter.

    (I did manage to lose a £1500 hearing aid on a gravel ride. It came out when I hit the deck at speed.
    Didn’t notice until almost at coffee stop; we had the coffee, went back to find it.
    Not easy seeing something that’s less than 50mm long and skin tone against a gravel track … but we found it … and it still works ?)

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    • Oldfatgit wrote:

      Thank fuck I’m not on twitter.

      — Oldfatgit

      The most accurate statement on here!

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20. Motorists who scold cyclists

    Motorists who scold cyclists for wearing earphones will, of course, drive around with their car stereos off and windows fully wound down. If they aren’t hypocrites, that is.

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21. Been wearing headphones while

    Been wearing headphones while cycling probably since 2017 and music has never distracted me. I wear these wireless headphones made by Mpow (purchased before they got booted off amazon for falsifying reviews…) and they are designed as such that they dont sit deep in your ear canal compared to similar headphones or have ANC on 24/7 so I can still hear everything around me as I ride.

    Obviously one has to use some common sense along with it and not run them with the volume all the way up.

    Im always shoulder checking so Im doubly careful of whats going on around me.

    I dont particularly care what people do. Its not my place to judge but if people are going to do it, at least use some common sense…. if not for your own safety, then the safety of others.

    Then there are those people who use those headphones that look like studio headphones which clamp around your head. Ive seena lot of people cycling with those headclamps on.

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22. As someone who lives in

    As someone who lives in London, if I go for a ride it is going to be a fact that when I’m riding I’m likely to have a car in front of me, one next to me and one behind me.  Whether I hear or not isn’t going to make any difference.  The only thing being able to hear allows is for me to hear the occasional insult from a driver.  Mind you, I’m a cyclist that is regularly looking over his shoulder and paying close attention to his surroundings.  If someone isn’t going to pay attention due to headphones I’d hazard a guess that they are also likely to be the kind of cyclist that rides with tunnel vision and doesn’t use their eyes properly either.

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    • I think a huge point that
      I think a huge point that loads and loads of people are missing is it’s not just cars it’s other cyclists that you cannot hear with headphones in. I’ve had countless scenarios where a cyclist has almost veered into me as I’m going round to over take them because they have not heard me say ‘on your right’. Also, many times have known there is a cyclist behind me because I can hear their freewheel, another very helpful piece of info you are not given if you have headphones in. Your latter point, having cycled in London for 10yrs + I find a lot of headphone users are also crap cyclists, not being diligent with looking / not signalling etc.

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23. If I am out solo on a long

    If I am out solo on a long ride I sometimes use  bone conduction headphones to listen to radio/podcasts and sometimes music but not often. I like them as I can still hear my surroundings…. but it’s a personal thing I guess. I do have in ear buds too but I never ride with them, they are only used at home.

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    • I’m a big fan of the bone
      I’m a big fan of the bone conduction headphones. I can listen to music or podcast happily and still hear external sounds. I wear a buff over them, it cuts down wind interference and fits easily under my helmet.

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24. Obviously if you use

    Obviously if you use earphones while cycling, it can be hard to hear the difference between “a puddle” and “a pothole”, as JV unfortunately found out.

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    • andystow wrote:

      Obviously if you use earphones while cycling, it can be hard to hear the difference between “a puddle” and “a pothole”, as JV unfortunately found out.

      — andystow

      Lucky it wasn’t a “poodle”

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25. I’ve tried cycling with

    I’ve tried cycling with earphones, but I find the additional wind noise drowns out the music. But when not moving I can still hear more than I can inside my car. What is there to hear anyway?

    • In a busy urban envirnment the road noise is near constant and gives no indication of immenent threat levels.
    • In quiet rural environments the car that close passes or hits (I assume) sounds exactly the same as the car that gives a safe pass.
    • If you change your line without looking you are rolling the dice on beaing hit by an electric vehicle one day
    • If a motor vehicle uses their horn near you it is incredibly loud (in order to be heard through car windows) and you will hear it over earphones.

    Maybe next time someone mentions how unsafe this is, I’ll invite them to stand next to my car with earphones on and give the horn a blast.

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    • In terms of rural roads, it

      In terms of rural roads, it depends. If there are cats eyes down the middle it is reassurring to hear two sets of thumps as both sides of the car cross the centre line, one set of thumps – the second set could have missed the cats eyes or it might be a bit close, no thumps – hold as straight a line as possible, if possible squeeze in to the verge a bit more, and hold your breath.

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26. Heh.

    Heh.

    I’ve been having a fun conversation on twitter about cycling round puddles, and the need fror investment in the public realm.

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27. YOU MUST WRITE LOUDER I’VE
    YOU MUST WRITE LOUDER I’VE GOT MY HEADPHONES ON!

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28. I like the sound of birdsong,

    I like the sound of birdsong, and the rumble of my tyres.

    I was no more dangerous when I used headphones (with cassette payer), 30 years back, or safer now.

    I do find hearing the change in engine tone to be informative, but wether that’s truly safer?

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29. Ref cycling with headphones

    Ref cycling with headphones/pods. Maybe we should start a campaign to outlaw all in car entertainment systems, (radios to us old gits), force drivers to drive with their windows down and ban vehicle manufacturers fitting with accustic absorbing glass? 

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    • Capt Sisko wrote:

      … in car entertainment systems, (radios to us old gits)

      — Capt Sisko

      Do you mean a ‘wireless’?

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30. Earbud users are a menace,

    Earbud users are a menace, especially on canal towpaths where the users are oblivious to everything around them. bells are no use, even shouting is wasted on some. Even worse are the earbud users who wander all over a shared path whilst staring at their phones.

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    • The best I had was a guy who

      The best I had was a guy who stopped dead in the path and got his phone out, convinced my bell ringing was a notification. 

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      • Adam Sutton wrote:

        The best I had was a guy who stopped dead in the path and got his phone out, convinced my bell ringing was a notification. 

        — Adam Sutton

        I hope you waited for him to put it back and then rang your bell again

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31. I do wonder what I’m meant to

    I do wonder what I’m meant to do with the additional info my ears would give me. Even if I can somehow tell that a car is coming straight at me from behind, what do I do? Do a backflip over the car like in Spider-Man 2?

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    • Bikebikebike wrote:

      I do wonder what I’m meant to do with the additional info my ears would give me. […]

      — Bikebikebike

      Take the point but sometimes (and not predictably) extra input is useful.  Thinking about that one where a homicidal guy speed-reversed up a country lane to get to a cyclist who’d complained about his close pass.

      So I think it’s sensible but it’s towards the “but cyclists” end of concerns.  That is – mostly a thing for people who aren’t cycling and certainly aren’t actually being run over in numbers every day by cyclists.

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    • Ridiculous comment. It’s not
      Sorry but pretty ridiculous comment. It’s not just about cars, not having headphones in allows you to hear other cyclists. I’ve had countless scenarios when overtaking a cyclist and they have started to veer towards me and haven’t heard me warning them I’m there because they have headphones in. Same thing with them cutting in front of me in cycle lanes.
      There have been many times where I have known there is a cyclist behind me because I can hear there freewheel, info you don’t have if you have headphones in. Additionally, with a lot of ear buds having noise cancelling I bet cyclists are less aware of emergency services. I’d love to cycle and listen to music but it just is not as safe.

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      • Sounds like you need to
        Sounds like you need to improve your overtaking as you are having so many issues. People don’t just randomly change position.
        What do you do then if there is a cyclist behind you ? You wouldn’t be changing position without a shoulder check anyway, so how is this improving things ?

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        • I am an extremely diligent
          I am an extremely diligent cyclist, I’ve cycled in London for over a decade with no crashes because I am always looking, listening for cars, bikes, people, everything. The unfortunate reality is LOADS of sh*t cyclists put my life in danger because they do change direction abruptly with no warning. They drift into the middle of the road because they are going to turn down a road they haven’t signalled for, they cut from the road into a cycle lane without looking, and loads of these idiots wear headphones which impairs them hearing me saying LOOK OUT / ON YOUR RIGHT / WHICH WAY ARE YOU GOING. Cycling without headphones in these riders could hear me and turn away, reducing the chance of a collision. The ‘over the shoulder check ‘ you mention is exactly what they don’t do. You have access to more information without headphones in, that is 100% fact. What’s your view on headphones then mate?
          Additionally, loads of the headphone wearers are Lime bike idiots who don’t know the roads but are happy to block out useful info.

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          • You didn’t answer how hearing
            You didn’t answer how hearing a freewheel makes any difference.
            If these people are cutting across or not even looking why do you think they haven’t heard you or maybe they simply don’t care.
            You should also avoid overtaking at junctions.

          • You didn’t ask about the
            It wasn’t clear you were asking about the freewheel. If these riders that don’t signal didn’t have headphones in they are more likely to hear a cyclist behind them, their freewheel, or their brakes. You actually didn’t give me an answer on your stance on wearing headphones whilst cycling? ‘why do you think they haven’t heard you’ um, because they have headphones in, the main point highlighted in my comments.
            Of course I don’t regularly overtake at junctions, but you are allowed to if the situation is safe, i.e no one is cutting across the road without signalling.
            In initial comment I mentioned that it’s more difficult to hear emergency services with headphone in, do you think that’s a positive thing?
            Have you had any experience cycling regularly in areas with lots of headphone users?

32. Being lit like a Christmas
    Being lit like a Christmas tree, dressed in highly reflective Proviz, sitting on the centre lane, indicating a right turn while doing 18mph on a narrow domestic street – outside my fecking house – didn’t stop the Audi from overtaking me.
    Just in front of the wankmobile, you can see the last white line that denotes the junction.
    Unfortunately, the rear camera was covered in crap and is not viewable

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33. I can only speak for myself ,
    I can only speak for myself , Mr Vine does cycling no favours riding with earphones is in my opinion dangerous. I dont myself purely on the grounds of distraction and affecting my safety.and road awareness.

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