Updated: Court hears crowd-funded fixed-penalty appeal

lakeland bimbler wrote:

If I remember my law studies correctly magistrates can't establish precedent so unless this ends up in the crown court it is unlikely to have any bearing on the future

Correct. Even in the Crown Court, it isn't necessarily binding either.

eurotrash wrote:

..., if I can't see the box and I filter up there and it's full, what am I supposed to do? I can't just stay there beside the traffic. I'll pull in behind if I can, sometimes there will be a bit of space in the "gutter", but if not then I'll position myself ahead of the vehicle and thus outside the box, to ensure I am seen. Booking anyone for doing so in that circumstance is taking the piss.

I would suggest riding on the outside of the lane of the traffic rather than the "gutter" where you are more visible and may be able to see further ahead to note whether an ASL is already blocked. Drivers are more likely to expect to be overtaken on the outside and will check this side more regularly, and you are less at risk of being sideswiped by drivers turning into side roads across your path or pedestrians stepping out.

If the ASL is clear and you have time to get to it before the lights change then enter it from the outside. If you think it is blocked or you don't think you can get to it before the lights change then wait in line. You can usually find a space just in front and on the outside of the driver behind you. Look back at them and make sure you have eye contact with them so they know you are there. Make sure you have set the pedal ready to go. When the lights change set off. Chances are the driver will be a little bit slower in setting off (they'll need to put the vehicle in gear and take the handbrake off) and you can drop into the gap in front of them.

If you don't feel confident doing this then I would suggest sitting in the line of traffic, in the eyeline of the roaduser behind you, again looking back at them - it's amazing what eye contact can do. Nowhere in the Highway Code does it say cyclists must get to the front of the line of traffic If there are only two or three vehicles in front of me at the lights I will stay where I am. The driver behind me can see me and, as mentioned above, he or she will take a little bit longer to get going than me. Once we are through the lights I will check to see if there is somewhere safe for me to allow the driver to pass.

Ahem...

Entering an ASL when the lights are at red via any other route than the filter (in the gutter) is an offence.

(Sorry and all that - but I have no discretion sir)

A few years ago, I cycled up the middle of the road to overtake rather than undertake cars to get to an ASL box. A kind Foxtons estate agent decided she didnt want to wait in the traffic and performed a u-turn without looking/indicating. She managed to drive over my front wheel, bent my frame and sent me flying into the path of oncoming traffic. Fortunately I didn't break anything.

My point is that riding up to traffic junctions during rush hour is inherently dangerous. Car drivers and cyclists are both often in a rush and want to get to the front/get away promptly.

Having been knocked off I would rather be infront of traffic where they can see me, and not tucked inbetween vehicles in blind spots or in places where drivers are not expecting to see you.

As for this case - it's nonsense. Stopping infront of a white line on the road, but still not going over a junction should not be an offence. At almost every set of lights I stop at when cycling or driving, there is someone who has over shot the line for one reason or another. This smells of semantics and over zealous police officers who were out to make an example of a cyclist that day.

NDD wrote:

A few years ago, I cycled up the middle of the road to overtake rather than undertake cars to get to an ASL box. A kind Foxtons estate agent decided she didnt want to wait in the traffic and performed a u-turn without looking/indicating. She managed to drive over my front wheel, bent my frame and sent me flying into the path of oncoming traffic. Fortunately I didn't break anything.

My point is that riding up to traffic junctions during rush hour is inherently dangerous. Car drivers and cyclists are both often in a rush and want to get to the front/get away promptly.

Having been knocked off I would rather be infront of traffic where they can see me, and not tucked inbetween vehicles in blind spots or in places where drivers are not expecting to see you.

As for this case - it's nonsense. Stopping infront of a white line on the road, but still not going over a junction should not be an offence. At almost every set of lights I stop at when cycling or driving, there is someone who has over shot the line for one reason or another. This smells of semantics and over zealous police officers who were out to make an example of a cyclist that day.

But how do you get to the front of the traffic to be in that space in the first place? If you sit in the line of traffic then you are visible to the most important person to you on the road, which is the driver immediately behind you. Putting yourself at the front of the traffic may work in the same way but you've still got to get yourself there.

CotterPin-
"I would suggest riding on the outside of the lane of the traffic rather than the "gutter" where you are more visible and may be able to see further ahead to note whether an ASL is already blocked. "

As Lakeland Bimbler already said (though I wanted to point it out as well!) the flaw in this suggestion is its illegal to enter the ASL other than in the "gutter"! You are suggesting breaking the law, so if you are going to do that you might as well cross the stop lane anyway!

I reckon ASL's and the laws concerning them, are an ill-thought-through mess and need to be either scrapped or reworked.

For starters the fact that cars can drive into them if the light is just about to go red makes it impossible to enforce them. Perhaps the rules should be rejigged so that motorists can't enter them on amber? That would surely mean that any car in them when the light is at red can be assumed to have broken the rules?

The fact you can only legally enter them on the left makes them problematic if you want to turn right, and also creates potential hazards from motorists turning left.

FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:

CotterPin-
"I would suggest riding on the outside of the lane of the traffic rather than the "gutter" where you are more visible and may be able to see further ahead to note whether an ASL is already blocked. "

As Lakeland Bimbler already said (though I wanted to point it out as well!) the flaw in this suggestion is its illegal to enter the ASL other than in the "gutter"! You are suggesting breaking the law, so if you are going to do that you might as well cross the stop lane anyway!

I reckon ASL's and the laws concerning them, are an ill-thought-through mess and need to be either scrapped or reworked.

For starters the fact that cars can drive into them if the light is just about to go red makes it impossible to enforce them. Perhaps the rules should be rejigged so that motorists can't enter them on amber? That would surely mean that any car in them when the light is at red can be assumed to have broken the rules?

The fact you can only legally enter them on the left makes them problematic if you want to turn right, and also creates potential hazards from motorists turning left.

You're absolutely right and I would love to see a case being brought against a cyclist entering the ASL other than through the approach cycle lane and "gate" on the left hand side, especially in the light of the fact that there are some ASLs which don't have any "gate" and effectively NOBODY should enter them when the lights are red! ASLs are a pointless device, bordering on dangerous, in my opinion.

Having said that, my main concern was with cyclists who feel they need to get to the front of the traffic whether this is in an ASL or beyond the stop line. The cyclist may feel that they have made themselves more visible by doing so but what about the actual act of moving through the traffic to get to the front? Too often I see cyclists who feel they have to move to the front of the queue, unwittingly putting themselves at risk, and when they get there they often continue to put themselves at risk by stopping at the left, out of the eye line of the driver behind them.

So I would personally agree with GKam and just sit in the lane of traffic, making sure that I am in the eye line of the driver behind me. That way I am visible to the most important person to me at the moment. Of course, if there is a long queue of motor traffic then I might choose to filter, usually down the outside, rather than the inside. I would then either stop in the line of traffic, using the technique I mentioned above, or continue into the ASL, even if I am breaking the law!

CotterPin wrote:

So I would personally agree with GKam and just sit in the lane of traffic, making sure that I am in the eye line of the driver behind me. That way I am visible to the most important person to me at the moment. Of course, if there is a long queue of motor traffic then I might choose to filter, usually down the outside, rather than the inside. I would then either stop in the line of traffic, using the technique I mentioned above, or continue into the ASL, even if I am breaking the law!

Two reasons why I filter:

I get quite irritated at being hugely delayed because of all the drivers who chose to drive a ridiculously oversized vehicle (and cars do seem to be getting bigger and bigger!) thus clogging up the road ahead of me. Not helped by the frequency with which one reads hypocritical and illogical complaints by motorists at cyclists 'causing congestion'.

And, also, if I wait in the queue what happens repeatedly is the drivers in front of me seem to fall asleep (or start texting) and so take an age to start moving once the lights change. But of course I have less acceleration than they do once the queue actually does start to move. So almost invariably the driver just in front of me will get to the junction just in time to whizz across on amber (or even after the light has gone red) while I'll end up having to stop and wait for the _next_ phase, as unlike drivers I don't jump reds (partly because its riskier for a cyclist to do so). (And while I'm waiting too often a whacking great lorry will draw up beside me!)

But as I say, much of the time I just give up, dismount, and walk along the pavement, as that is often quicker than waiting for the traffic to move (and safer than filtering).

"In my eye's, the worst place you can put yourself, is right in front of a queue of traffic. They will all be eager to get past you in most places. So to be, that's dangerous. At traffic lights, I act like a car, take my place in line and play it safe."

Hmmm. Maybe. Have to say I often resort to dismounting and walking on the pavement and crossing as a pedestrian when the ASL is clogged up (or when I decide a junction just looks too nasty)

But do you have the acceleration required to 'act like a car' when the lights change? Because you _aren't_ a car, which is kind of the basic problem here.

And surely there are _still_ going to be cars behind you eager to get past you, so are you really that much better off doing it your way? Especially as the lights will likely change back to red just as you finally get to the front so you'll end up in the very position you said was 'the worst place to put yourself'.

Gkam84 wrote:

He broke the law, no matter if it was for safety or not. As I said in the other article that brought this to everyone's attention.

Filtering can be done when safe, but some cyclists see it as a "I must get to the front" http://road.cc/content/news/94166-londoner-challenge-red-light-fixed-pen...

I don't know what I want the outcome to be, I want to see sense prevail, but I also want him to be made an example of. You cannot just do things because you think its right.

In my eye's, the worst place you can put yourself, is right in front of a queue of traffic. They will all be eager to get past you in most places. So to be, that's dangerous. At traffic lights, I act like a car, take my place in line and play it safe.

And your eyes are wrong. Certainly in London, the safest place to be is in front of a queue because it's the most visible. In traffic, you won't be seen, you get swamped, and you're more at the mercy of larger vehicles where visibility is severley limited.

If it does go to court, I'm pleased you won't be the judge.