Poll: Should headphones be banned while cycling?; UCI and pro cyclists’ union in urgent rider safety talks; A legal spin – Peloton sues “copycat” Echelon; New Akrigg vid; Time launches gravel-specific pedals; Bieber on an e-bike + more on the live blog

andyp wrote:

'Does anyone honestly change their line without looking, if they can't hear anything?'

 

Remove the 'if they can't hear anything' and it is just as valid.

Reality says 'yes' to both.

dobbo996 wrote:

I don't wear headphones while riding as I like to be able to hear what's going on around me, particulary what's coming up behind. I can generally control what happens in from of me but shunts from behind, particularly when approaching junctions and traffic lights are a real worry.

If headphones are banned then shouldn't in-vehicle distractions be banned too? Not that this would ever be enforced, of course.

Car drivers, like bicycle riders, need to know what is going on around and behind them. As you point out, as a cyclist you rely on your hearing - hence headphones would be a bad idea. Car drivers rely on their mirrors, which do not compete for their ears.

So I would not consider listening to music in a car is analagous to wearing headphones on a bike. "In-vehicle distractions" - yes, they should be banned, including any telephone conversations whilst driving, handheld or not makes no difference.

Sriracha wrote:

dobbo996 wrote:

I don't wear headphones while riding as I like to be able to hear what's going on around me, particulary what's coming up behind. I can generally control what happens in from of me but shunts from behind, particularly when approaching junctions and traffic lights are a real worry.

If headphones are banned then shouldn't in-vehicle distractions be banned too? Not that this would ever be enforced, of course.

Car drivers, like bicycle riders, need to know what is going on around and behind them. As you point out, as a cyclist you rely on your hearing - hence headphones would be a bad idea. Car drivers rely on their mirrors, which do not compete for their ears.

So I would not consider listening to music in a car is analagous to wearing headphones on a bike. "In-vehicle distractions" - yes, they should be banned, including any telephone conversations whilst driving, handheld or not makes no difference.

Cyclist don't have to RELY on their hearing as they can have a look behind them which is pretty much the same thing as motorists using their mirrors. Unless you're performing a manoeuvre, it shouldn't make much difference as to what is behind you and performing a manoeuvre without looking is dangerous, so hearing doesn't really have much bearing on cycling or driving.

If you have a driving license and start losing your hearing, there is no requirement to inform DVLA and similarly, there is no requirement for cyclists to be able to hear.

hawkinspeter wrote:

Sriracha wrote:

dobbo996 wrote:

I don't wear headphones while riding as I like to be able to hear what's going on around me, particulary what's coming up behind. I can generally control what happens in from of me but shunts from behind, particularly when approaching junctions and traffic lights are a real worry.

If headphones are banned then shouldn't in-vehicle distractions be banned too? Not that this would ever be enforced, of course.

Car drivers, like bicycle riders, need to know what is going on around and behind them. As you point out, as a cyclist you rely on your hearing - hence headphones would be a bad idea. Car drivers rely on their mirrors, which do not compete for their ears.

So I would not consider listening to music in a car is analagous to wearing headphones on a bike. "In-vehicle distractions" - yes, they should be banned, including any telephone conversations whilst driving, handheld or not makes no difference.

Cyclist don't have to RELY on their hearing as they can have a look behind them which is pretty much the same thing as motorists using their mirrors. Unless you're performing a manoeuvre, it shouldn't make much difference as to what is behind you and performing a manoeuvre without looking is dangerous, so hearing doesn't really have much bearing on cycling or driving.

If you have a driving license and start losing your hearing, there is no requirement to inform DVLA and similarly, there is no requirement for cyclists to be able to hear.

Indeed, cyclists' use of their ears does not preclude them from using their eyes. But I don't agree that if cyclists were to be banned from wearing headphones such logic would dictate the same for motorists, for the reasons given.

Neither do I think cyclists should be banned from using headphones - it does not endanger anyone else and should be a matter for their own judgement (I would not). Certainly cyclists do not rely of listening out for pedestrians approaching from behind.

Sriracha wrote:

Indeed, cyclists' use of their ears does not preclude them from using their eyes. But I don't agree that if cyclists were to be banned from wearing headphones such logic would dictate the same for motorists, for the reasons given. Neither do I think cyclists should be banned from using headphones - it does not endanger anyone else and should be a matter for their own judgement (I would not). Certainly cyclists do not rely of listening out for pedestrians approaching from behind.

Logically, I don't see how it would work. If you declare that cyclists need their hearing to be safe on the roads, then why would motorists not need their hearing, considering that cyclists have much better visibility (e.g. higher position, no obstructing pillars or food trays) than motorists?

don simon fbpe wrote:

If you are going to wear headphones, don't buy the ones designed for joggers.

Ok, I'll bite. Why?

Mungecrundle wrote:

When I am a motorcyclist, I use sound reducing ear plugs as well as the noise reduction from wearing a full face helmet. These are worn to prevent hearing damage but do not isolate from all external sounds, you can still hear emergency sirens, beeping from crossings, car horns etc. The volume is just attenuated. In town / below 30mph I tend to ride with the visor up as I find it less claustrophobic, it is easier to hear and I enjoy the breeze in my face. On a motorcycle, your sense of smell is also useful, diesel spills, cut grass, wet tarmac, fresh horse crap. Each sense adds to your overall awareness.

 

Thanks. The question had never ocurred to me before.

Mungecrundle wrote:

When I am a motorcyclist....

I was about to type something, but except that I'm not a motorcyclist, I agree with Mungecundle's points above.

Personally I wouldn't cycle with earphones as I want to have all my senses available.

Mungecrundle wrote:

When I am a motorcyclist, I use sound reducing ear plugs as well as the noise reduction from wearing a full face helmet. These are worn to prevent hearing damage but do not isolate from all external sounds, you can still hear emergency sirens, beeping from crossings, car horns etc. The volume is just attenuated. In town / below 30mph I tend to ride with the visor up as I find it less claustrophobic, it is easier to hear and I enjoy the breeze in my face. On a motorcycle, your sense of smell is also useful, diesel spills, cut grass, wet tarmac, fresh horse crap. Each sense adds to your overall awareness.

When I am being a motorist, I have much easier use of mirrors to be aware of what is going on around me. I would agree with the comments about loud music and other in car distractions. It could be argued that the additional safety of being enclosed inside a metal box and lower risk of personal injury in a minor collision means you can literally get away with being less connected to the external environment.

As I cyclist, I use my sense of hearing extensively. On my regular route to work there is a narrow and obstructed cycle path / footpath entry point, if I can hear the pelican crossing that I cannot see as I approach this point then I am extra aware of the possibility of pedestrians who have just crossed and will appear at the constriction coming the other way. I can also time my arrival to all the other pedestrian crossings on my commute, if I can hear the crossing beeps as I approach then I know for sure that there are pedestrians in the roadway even if I cannot see them and I also know to the second how long after the beeps stop that the lights will change in my favour. When I cross over the railway bridge I can hear if a train is just departing, if it is then there are often peds walking between the lines of queuing cars outside the station, crossing the road and stepping into my cycle lane without looking (see comment below about peds with cans). Obviously you should always ride with an awareness of a pedestrian walking out between cars, but sometimes the audio clues are a reminder to be extra vigilant.

Not that I should have to be afraid of vehicles behind, but I do prefer to know that they are there and you can hear the difference between car and truck, whether they are getting closer or holding distance. Without mirrors, hearing is crucial. I genuinely do not understand why anyone would voluntarily block such a major sense, more to the point, it is not just about blocking out the environmental noises but actually drowning them out by another distracting sound source. If you want to get in the exercise zone with your hip disco beats, then do it at the gym where you will be less of a hazard to yourself and others.

When I see a pedestrian with a huge pair of noise cancelling cans over their ears and especially if they are also intent on looking at their mobile phone as they amble along, I assume that they are more likely to do something even more randomly stupid than normal people and be less likely to hear any warning of imminent danger. Consequently I give them a wide berth. Sometimes this means a minor inconvenience to accomodate their behaviour, but often there is the guilty pleasure of watching them walk into something.

As for people with a hearing disability. I have no experience of the condition, I'm sure it is a pain in the arse but would assume (stand to be corrected) that living permanently with the impairement of a particular sense would lead to alternative coping strategies. I have yet to come across anyone stating that wearing a blindfold makes no difference to one's ability to navigate the environment. Using visually impaired people as an example of it being perfectly safe is not really a good argument and certainly does not apply to the habitually sighted.

Does a ban make sense? I'm not convinced that banning free choice / stupidity (depending on how you view any number of human behaviours) is the best way forward. If it were, then there are far more lethal stupid things that people currently do voluntarily such as smoking and excessive alcohol or cream bun consumption. Cycling whilst wearing headphones would be rather far down my "To Do" list.

Seconded, and for all the same reasons. I only use earplugs on my motorbike when I'm going over 50mph though as the noise of air rushing past my helmet can be damaging. My hearing isn't that great in my left ear anyway though, and hasn' been ever since I saw Motorhead in the 1980s.

I sometimes where earphones that sit over the ear when I'm out running, but don't even have those when I'm riding a bicycle. You need your wits about you.

Mungecrundle wrote:

When I am a motorcyclist, I use sound reducing ear plugs as well as the noise reduction from wearing a full face helmet. These are worn to prevent hearing damage but do not isolate from all external sounds, you can still hear emergency sirens, beeping from crossings, car horns etc. The volume is just attenuated. In town / below 30mph I tend to ride with the visor up as I find it less claustrophobic, it is easier to hear and I enjoy the breeze in my face. On a motorcycle, your sense of smell is also useful, diesel spills, cut grass, wet tarmac, fresh horse crap. Each sense adds to your overall awareness.

When I am being a motorist, I have much easier use of mirrors to be aware of what is going on around me. I would agree with the comments about loud music and other in car distractions. It could be argued that the additional safety of being enclosed inside a metal box and lower risk of personal injury in a minor collision means you can literally get away with being less connected to the external environment.

As I cyclist, I use my sense of hearing extensively. On my regular route to work there is a narrow and obstructed cycle path / footpath entry point, if I can hear the pelican crossing that I cannot see as I approach this point then I am extra aware of the possibility of pedestrians who have just crossed and will appear at the constriction coming the other way. I can also time my arrival to all the other pedestrian crossings on my commute, if I can hear the crossing beeps as I approach then I know for sure that there are pedestrians in the roadway even if I cannot see them and I also know to the second how long after the beeps stop that the lights will change in my favour. When I cross over the railway bridge I can hear if a train is just departing, if it is then there are often peds walking between the lines of queuing cars outside the station, crossing the road and stepping into my cycle lane without looking (see comment below about peds with cans). Obviously you should always ride with an awareness of a pedestrian walking out between cars, but sometimes the audio clues are a reminder to be extra vigilant.

Not that I should have to be afraid of vehicles behind, but I do prefer to know that they are there and you can hear the difference between car and truck, whether they are getting closer or holding distance. Without mirrors, hearing is crucial. I genuinely do not understand why anyone would voluntarily block such a major sense, more to the point, it is not just about blocking out the environmental noises but actually drowning them out by another distracting sound source. If you want to get in the exercise zone with your hip disco beats, then do it at the gym where you will be less of a hazard to yourself and others.

When I see a pedestrian with a huge pair of noise cancelling cans over their ears and especially if they are also intent on looking at their mobile phone as they amble along, I assume that they are more likely to do something even more randomly stupid than normal people and be less likely to hear any warning of imminent danger. Consequently I give them a wide berth. Sometimes this means a minor inconvenience to accomodate their behaviour, but often there is the guilty pleasure of watching them walk into something.

As for people with a hearing disability. I have no experience of the condition, I'm sure it is a pain in the arse but would assume (stand to be corrected) that living permanently with the impairement of a particular sense would lead to alternative coping strategies. I have yet to come across anyone stating that wearing a blindfold makes no difference to one's ability to navigate the environment. Using visually impaired people as an example of it being perfectly safe is not really a good argument and certainly does not apply to the habitually sighted.

Does a ban make sense? I'm not convinced that banning free choice / stupidity (depending on how you view any number of human behaviours) is the best way forward. If it were, then there are far more lethal stupid things that people currently do voluntarily such as smoking and excessive alcohol or cream bun consumption. Cycling whilst wearing headphones would be rather far down my "To Do" list.

If you can't see an obstruction that you know is there then wouldn't it be wiser to slow down to walking pace or dismount for that section instead of second guessing what's ahead on the basis of what you can hear? Your practise is casual guesswork based on only one sense which is bound to fail at some juncture when you take for granted the situation ahead.

Re the railway bridge, again, you should be ensuring you're going at a speed you can stop well within the distance you can see to be clear, hearing then becomes unecessesary, parked cars/railway station, sorry but it's pretty obvious the situation just as it is parked cars and kids around school going and and leaving times, SLOW DOWN so you can stop for hazards in good time by using your eyes not guessing from what your ears are telling you!not rely on sounds!

Being able to hear vehicles behind you or not is again irrelevant, what are you going to do, move in towards the gutter everytime you hear spmething a bit close? That's why mirrors on a bike are not a good idea either.

You've called people riding bikes with earphones "stupid", so your viewpoint is pretty clear, yet there's no evidence for this whatsoever for one thing in terms of causing crashes, and you've actually failed to grasp why hearing isn't important in the context of safe riding. When you're going along in pretty much any urbn environ there are so many sounds going on not to mention wind noise that's it's absolutely not something you need to be able to ride safe.

Seems to me if anyone is stupid it's the people who don't want to slow down when they can't see stuff and rely on the one (weaker) sense that doesn't give them the full picturea to assume what's ahead of you and being able to maintain speed at junctures where you should be slowing down (further) as a matter of course which again makes the hearing sense redundant.

hirsute wrote:

Incidentally, how do motorcyclists hear what is going on around them?

Furthermore, I wonder how Antwerp governor Cathy Berx will deal with hearing-impaired cyclists?

hirsute wrote:

Incidentally, how do motorcyclists hear what is going on around them?

All I need is V4 music through a Scorpion speaker!

Got to have your eye game in top working order on a motorbike, kind of need to looking at where you are and were you want to be at the same time given how quickly things unfold compared to cycling.

Once you get going past urban speeds, if you've got plugs in or not wind noise and engine noise will drown out anything else. I probably need a new lid s my current one is too loud. Either way sound isn't a big deal in terms of external noise, just really need to hear your engine to correlate what your doing with how the road feels. I don't really use my mirrors much once out of town as I'll be the one doing all the overtaking and only another motorbike will ever catch up.

Not a fan of ever opening my visor fully as insects in the eyes at 15mph is a pain never mind 30.