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Hi Guys,

I currently have dura ace jockey wheels... I'm keen to change only the jockey wheels, not the whole pulley, for ceramic bearings ones. however  I'm not willing to spend 250 quid on the ceramicspeed ones.. I also don~t want to pay 45 euro for a a pair of jockey wheels, and when they arrive they have the same resistance as the dura ace ones.

Does anyone know any cheap version of the ceramic bearings that is better than Dura Ace and it won't negative my bank account?

 

Thanks.

18 comments

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MariaMartinez [16 posts] 3 months ago
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Yes these have come down a lot in price from the ridiculous CS prices. Google chooee 13t or 15t they are around £4-£6 when bought in pairs, or £8 single. or just look on ebay but some similar designs.

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guinom8 [22 posts] 2 months ago
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MariaMartinez wrote:

Yes these have come down a lot in price from the ridiculous CS prices. Google chooee 13t or 15t they are around £4-£6 when bought in pairs, or £8 single. or just look on ebay but some similar designs.

 

@MariaMartinez, Have you used them? Do they have less resistence than the dura ace ones? Cause I've seen some video of jockey wheels like these that has as much resistence as the dura ace ones... just wondering.. I don't want them for looks but for performance.

Also, I'm not entirely sure my short cage dura ace derailleur will accomodate the 13/15 T jockey wheels.

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MariaMartinez [16 posts] 2 months ago
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Yes I have used, friction is very low and substantially less than any branded ones. Re your cage, yes you are right, try the 13t first (at the bottom position)

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arckuk [86 posts] 2 months ago
3 likes

I was under the impression that the benefit of reduced friction in the bearing was pretty much negligible, but there are small (guessing couple of watts) to be gained by using a larger jockey wheel which requires less bending of the links in the chain. Both sound fairly marginal to me!

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BehindTheBikesheds [2144 posts] 2 months ago
1 like

Spinning them in your hand is a false way to prove they offer less resistance under a load, suggest you forget your plan unless you just want some nice coloured bits to 'bling' up your RD.

You'd actually be better served in actual absolute performance improvement terms by buying a larger toothed (lower position) jockey wheel or tension pulley as some refer to to it, the upper is usually called the pulley or g-pulley and the bits surrounding them is the cage. 

A larger lower wheel eases the amount of angle the chain goes around, so less friction/lower amount of rotations of the bearing, this will have greater effect in effort (which is still maybe 2 watts with a top end system) than a like for like size ceramic replacement over your dura ace. You may have to replace the cage as well however for a larger tooth jockey wheel. 

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Spangly Shiny [204 posts] 2 months ago
1 like

A pair of Tacx ceramic jockey wheel come in at around £25, standard size only. I got some for  a Sram Force d/r just for the whiteness of them. I couldn't tell the difference after fitting them TBH.

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theRomfordRider [6 posts] 2 months ago
0 likes
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

Spinning them in your hand is a false way to prove they offer less resistance under a load, suggest you forget your plan unless you just want some nice coloured bits to 'bling' up your RD.

You'd actually be better served in actual absolute performance improvement terms by buying a larger toothed (lower position) jockey wheel or tension pulley as some refer to to it, the upper is usually called the pulley or g-pulley and the bits surrounding them is the cage. 

A larger lower wheel eases the amount of angle the chain goes around, so less friction/lower amount of rotations of the bearing, this will have greater effect in effort (which is still maybe 2 watts with a top end system) than a like for like size ceramic replacement over your dura ace. You may have to replace the cage as well however for a larger tooth jockey wheel. 

 

Would you need to make changes to your chain lengh if you add a larger toothed jockey wheel?

 

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BehindTheBikesheds [2144 posts] 2 months ago
1 like
theRomfordRider wrote:
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

Spinning them in your hand is a false way to prove they offer less resistance under a load, suggest you forget your plan unless you just want some nice coloured bits to 'bling' up your RD.

You'd actually be better served in actual absolute performance improvement terms by buying a larger toothed (lower position) jockey wheel or tension pulley as some refer to to it, the upper is usually called the pulley or g-pulley and the bits surrounding them is the cage. 

A larger lower wheel eases the amount of angle the chain goes around, so less friction/lower amount of rotations of the bearing, this will have greater effect in effort (which is still maybe 2 watts with a top end system) than a like for like size ceramic replacement over your dura ace. You may have to replace the cage as well however for a larger tooth jockey wheel. 

Would you need to make changes to your chain lengh if you add a larger toothed jockey wheel?

potentially, it depends on how tight you were with your chain trimming and your set up with respect to largest sprocket/largest chainring, with the propensity to using big/big you could find that if you have it trimmed to 54 links you might need to go to 55, or 108-110 depending on how you count your links.

personally I rarely ever do big/big, it could probably lose you as many watts as a ceramic and/or larger pulley could save you.  If you buy a new chain that'll lose you 0.5watt to start with until you break it in and if you're going to get a new chain then you might as well spend £40-60 on a decent one to save you another 1-2watts.

Additionally before you trim your new watt saving chain get shot of your 11t sprocket as that is sucking the life out of you. You want a 12T, ideally a 13T starting sprocket and just go with a bigger chainring, again, wider angles equals greater efficiency and applies to the rings/sprockets at higher outputs.

OR, you could just leave the bike as it is  4

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Joe Totale [59 posts] 2 months ago
2 likes

Aren't AGR2 Mondialle the only pro team using oversized jockey wheels?

I'm sure that if the performance benefits were substantial then all the pro teams would be using them.

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philhubbard [145 posts] 2 months ago
0 likes
Joe Totale wrote:

Aren't AGR2 Mondialle the only pro team using oversized jockey wheels?

I'm sure that if the performance benefits were substantial then all the pro teams would be using them.

 

DD are as well, don't think many other people are using mixed drivetrain either apart from these two

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Simon E [3349 posts] 2 months ago
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madcarew [752 posts] 2 months ago
1 like
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

Spinning them in your hand is a false way to prove they offer less resistance under a load, suggest you forget your plan unless you just want some nice coloured bits to 'bling' up your RD.

You'd actually be better served in actual absolute performance improvement terms by buying a larger toothed (lower position) jockey wheel or tension pulley as some refer to to it, the upper is usually called the pulley or g-pulley and the bits surrounding them is the cage. 

A larger lower wheel eases the amount of angle the chain goes around, so less friction/lower amount of rotations of the bearing, this will have greater effect in effort (which is still maybe 2 watts with a top end system) than a like for like size ceramic replacement over your dura ace. You may have to replace the cage as well however for a larger tooth jockey wheel. 

A man with your penchant for numbers will have looked at the data and seen there is no measureable difference on the bike of large vs small, and ceramic vs non-ceramic bearings in jockey wheels.

OP, buy some bling, or don't. There is no operational difference in resistance between your suggested alternatives.

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macrophotofly [317 posts] 2 months ago
8 likes

Ceramic bearings advantages are they have a higher propensity to retain roundness under extreme loads and wear less quickly. They are not any rounder in the first place than equivalent steel bearings. Hence when you consider the tiny load involved on a jockey wheel, it is pointless spending money on ceramic. Keeping your steel D-A bearings in tip top condition will be a more valuable exercise

Three other thoughts

  1. many jockey wheels even on relatively high mid-level groupsets (e.g. Shimano 105) still use bushings rather than bearings, which shows you the low level of load involved
  2. The upper jockey wheel on Shimano DRs has a sloppy axle designed to cope with different approach angles of the chain from the cassette to the jockey. If you buy a replacement non-DA set of wheels make sure the upper wheel also has that too, otherwise you will notice increased chain noise and wear rates
  3. Whilst metal jockey wheels look more bling and would seem to be an advantage, in reality a plastic jockey wheel has the game sewn up; It doesn't wear the chain. It is quieter on contact with the chain. It allows some flex if the chain catches between it and the cage avoiding DR-terminal incidents (as happenned to me when using metal jockey wheels)
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Drinfinity [94 posts] 2 months ago
1 like

I had some bling jockey wheels on my MTB. The g pulley had very little float to start with. Over time it migrated sideways, the cap over the bearing grinding its way into the wheel. I tend to stick to plastic now. 

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BehindTheBikesheds [2144 posts] 2 months ago
0 likes
madcarew wrote:
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

Spinning them in your hand is a false way to prove they offer less resistance under a load, suggest you forget your plan unless you just want some nice coloured bits to 'bling' up your RD.

You'd actually be better served in actual absolute performance improvement terms by buying a larger toothed (lower position) jockey wheel or tension pulley as some refer to to it, the upper is usually called the pulley or g-pulley and the bits surrounding them is the cage. 

A larger lower wheel eases the amount of angle the chain goes around, so less friction/lower amount of rotations of the bearing, this will have greater effect in effort (which is still maybe 2 watts with a top end system) than a like for like size ceramic replacement over your dura ace. You may have to replace the cage as well however for a larger tooth jockey wheel. 

A man with your penchant for numbers will have looked at the data and seen there is no measureable difference on the bike of large vs small, and ceramic vs non-ceramic bearings in jockey wheels.

OP, buy some bling, or don't. There is no operational difference in resistance between your suggested alternatives.

Did you even bother to read my posts at all? The fact i was quoting 0.5 watt increments and saying to leave the bike as is, is a big clue, you really need to upgrade your comprehension skills.

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ktache [859 posts] 2 months ago
0 likes

I tried the cheaper Tacx cermic bearing jockey wheels, about £25, they did not like the filth, my last set lasted less than 2 weeks, lesson learned.  Now on stainless.

They do some other ones with better seals, about £45, might have been better, but I shall stick with the stainless.

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madcarew [752 posts] 2 months ago
0 likes
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:
madcarew wrote:
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

Spinning them in your hand is a false way to prove they offer less resistance under a load, suggest you forget your plan unless you just want some nice coloured bits to 'bling' up your RD.

You'd actually be better served in actual absolute performance improvement terms by buying a larger toothed (lower position) jockey wheel or tension pulley as some refer to to it, the upper is usually called the pulley or g-pulley and the bits surrounding them is the cage. 

A larger lower wheel eases the amount of angle the chain goes around, so less friction/lower amount of rotations of the bearing, this will have greater effect in effort (which is still maybe 2 watts with a top end system) than a like for like size ceramic replacement over your dura ace. You may have to replace the cage as well however for a larger tooth jockey wheel. 

A man with your penchant for numbers will have looked at the data and seen there is no measureable difference on the bike of large vs small, and ceramic vs non-ceramic bearings in jockey wheels.

OP, buy some bling, or don't. There is no operational difference in resistance between your suggested alternatives.

Did you even bother to read my posts at all? The fact i was quoting 0.5 watt increments and saying to leave the bike as is, is a big clue, you really need to upgrade your comprehension skills.

In the post quoted there was no 0.5w increments (you'll have to improve your posting skills, proof reading skills, or typing skills)

If you read my response you will see that I define clearly "Large vs small", Ceramic vs non-ceramic" and state that you'll of course know that there is no evidence of saving on the bike, but you clearly state there is "maybe 2W". So. Improve your typing, reading and comprehension skills. You make numbers up, pull them out of your arse, and chuck them on the page. 

As the chain is under negligible tension going around the jockey wheels there are no effective losses to be gained by decreasing the angle.  And though there are theoretical minor losses to be saved by going to a 12 instead of the 11 there is so far as I know no studies or experiments that have shown this to be measureable or even a real effect. 

The point is moot really. You are so adamant about the veracity of other people's data, or tear it apart according to your own wants, but chuck up any old crap you like, and as pointed out elsewhere, effectively just make it up as you go. 

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guinom8 [22 posts] 2 months ago
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Thank you all for your input.

I appreciate the vast opinion provided.

Thanks.