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I've just started getting into Sportives and am currently riding a 2016 Cube Attain. No problems with the bike but I am thinking of taking advantage of the bike to work scheme to make an upgrade, as it's the only way my wife will let me spend a £1000 on a bike and spending any more money on significant upgrades is also out. Two options seem to make sense at the current prices:

  • The Ribble R872 105SE which seems to have a very well reviewed frame, albeit with a few complaints of a lack of compliance on longer rides, full 105 groupset and what appears to be a very basic set of Rodi Airline 5 Wheels. I'd guess that Ribble's thought process is that these would be the first thing to be upgraded but as mentioned above, it's pretty unlikely I'll get to upgrade them. another downside is I'd have to pay an additional £100 Admin fee, so save money from the tax man but pay it to Ribble instead.
  • The Planet X ProCarbon is a bit lighter and has a better set of wheels, Vision 35's, and a more compliant frame but there is just no up to date review available. It has a full SRAM Rival groupset(I am not bothered about if I have Shimano or SRAM). On the downside there are a few mentions on Forum posts that the bike suffers from high speed wobble at speeds over 40mph (I am not sure I've even gone that fast yet!) and that the front fork is a little springy when sprinting. 

I am 40 years old, 5ft10 and currently weigh 14st (that is going down but I doubt I'll ever weigh less than 13). I am looking to enter short and middle distance sportives next year, with maybe one longer distance one and will probably join a cycle club next year. And of course I'll be riding it to work!!

Any constructive advice welcome, particularly if you have experience of the bikes in question. If you do have alternatives to offer please remember I can only buy through the bike 2 works vouchers so please don't suggest anything that cannot be purchased that way or costs more than a grand, regardless of how brilliant it is.

75 comments

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The Gavalier [96 posts] 12 months ago
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Go for something alloy framed. 

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ibr17xvii [297 posts] 12 months ago
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The Gavalier wrote:

Go for something alloy framed. 

Just my opinion but I would tend to agree.

At your price point I would much rather have a decent Alu frame than a lower end carbon one.

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ChrisB200SX [769 posts] 12 months ago
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the Planet X Pro Carbon frame has been around for a while, I recently chatted with a couple of guys on them and they said they were brilliant bikes that had no right being so comfortable at such a low price. One said his boss was so impressed when he tried it that he sold his really expensive bike for a Pro Carbon.

I've recently bought a Planet X Pro Carbon frame to put all my spare parts on. Wonder whether I should have put the upgrades on it instead of the main bike.

I doubt you'll regret going for the Planet X. I'd go with Shimano 105 but I'm really impressed with how SRAM Rival changes gear so directly on my Planet X Stealth Carbon time trial bike. My time trial bike is surprisingly smooth over bumps, and that's also an old frame design using the same Toray 700 carbon fibre.

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mike the bike [1082 posts] 12 months ago
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There is something in what the two gentlemen above have suggested.  A few months ago Cycling Plus magazine tested a dozen popular bikes at your price point.  Only one carbon bike (a Ribble)  made it through to the last six, where it was promptly beaten by the five alloy framed machines.

The test was thorough, prolonged and involved several experienced riders and all sorts of road conditions.  I tend to believe the results.

Aluminium has come on in leaps and bounds recently but remains much cheaper than carbon to mass-produce; this leaves more room for higher spec' groupsets and wheels.

Just a thought.

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skwarczek [18 posts] 12 months ago
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I have just been through the exact same process as you, albeit not C2W. Went for the Ribble in the end, R872 105SE. Customer Service and value for money swung it. I did upgrade the wheels to mavic aksium for £49, might as well get it done now rather than doing it anyway in about a years time. 

The planetX is "old" carbon technology whereas the Ribble is brand new this year.

Im 5'11" and weighing around 100kg, slowly coming down.

Here is my latest ride on the bike and can safely say i dont regret buying it at all. 

https://www.relive.cc/view/1100417407

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alansmurphy [1832 posts] 12 months ago
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Depends on the kind of 13/14 stone you aim to be as well - an out and out power for an hour rider or obsessed with climbing may want the quick response that a carbon frame gives you. I've looked at the planet x ones before but strangely their ever changing prices upset me, the lime/orange/pink pro carbon came down to about 749 at one point and then back up, I couldn't justify the higher price after that. Also, be warned, think planet x charge 10% on c2w bikes - there is a small hyperlink at the bottom of their page.

You mention commuting too, carbon may not be the best for this, potentially a gravel bike, good alloy or even steel. This is also an option if you're a Sunday warrior, 50 miler at 15/16 mph. If you're looking one bike fits all then something that'll take bigger tyres, mudguards maybe disc brakes. I've looked at the Planet X Holdsworth Elan at 499 or 599 depending on groupset.

I also have a Cannondale which I love, carbon with 105 on it. Cannondale CAADX 8/10 etc. have had amazing reviews for around the right price point.

I would Google best road bikes for under 1k rather than be too motivated by carbon. Also, fit, feel and heart come into it, ride some and see which makes you smile!

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billymansell [38 posts] 12 months ago
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I've a PX ProCarbon that's been ridden almost daily for over seven years now either on the road or on the turbo. It's proved excellent value as it still looks immaculate but I did cover vulnerable areas with frame protector on day one. Over those years other than replacing consumables I have replaced the wheels (mine came with PXs own wheels which weren't good) and a couple of saddles.

I'd take the old stories about the ProCarbon as just that otherwise why would they still be selling it after so long. I've regularly ridden it at 40mph+ without speed wobble so who is to say any reports of speed wobble aren't factors related to the rider or their position rather than the bike. As for flex you're more likely to get flex from the bars and stem than the forks and as you're wanting the bike for sportives not racing aren't issues related to sprinting moot anyway?

In addition to those myths my frame hasn't dissolved from either too much rain or too much sun nor has it fallen apart from its regular use on the turbo throughout every year I've owned it.

I'll keep riding mine as long as keeps going although I'm itching for a disc road bike but resisting the urge for now at least.

 

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Punches Dragons [24 posts] 12 months ago
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I won't be commuting on it! It's more of a don't bike 2 work scheme.

One of the first things I did was google best road bikes for a grand and got most of the usual contenders;  Trek Emonda ALR4, Specialized Allez etc. Nearly all of them have the same groupsets or wheels that you can have on the Ribble or Planet X. The argument that you can go for an Aluminium frame and Carbon Fork and end up with better componentry does not really stack up, in fact it seems reversed if you are comparing against the direct sale Internet companies like Ribble and Planet X that often have deals that put better than you'd expect componentry on their frames compared to the big name manufacturers. In fact it seems you need to be vary wary about what any of them provide or advertise. The Ribble R872 105SE is a full 105 groupset and you simply don't get that on the big manufactures at this price point.

That kind of leads on to two questions I have been struggling with.

  • How much worth is it to have bought your bike at the local shop and have a relationship with them, provided they can sell you the Aluminium machine you want and take the bike2work scheme vouchers? My initial thoughts is that this value has somewhat diminished over the last few years. Many of the answers your local shop would provide are easily obtainable elsewhere and you can definitely purchase everything cheaper online.  They still have some value, especially for more complicated workshop tasks, to test ride before you buy and to help withwarranty issues, and in the case of some, additional services like proper bike fitting but it is hard to monetize that worth for comparison to the money you save buying direct on line. I am reasonably technically minded and not an ape with tools so all but the most complicated tasks I can do or can learn to do myself so I am not likely to be visiting a bike shop every couple of weeks to sort out the latest mechanical drama.
  • The harder question is do Aluminium frames that can be bought using bike2work vouchers  at this price point give you a bike with a far superior ride considering you could be using cheaper componentry and almost certainly carrying extra weight. That's the real bugger as I can ride some of the popular alloy frames if I am willing to drive around visiting bike shops but the carbon ones are far more awkward.  Ribble offer a 30 day trial but I can imagine doing this with the bike2work scheme will be an absolute nightmare and Planet basically offer you no returns.

It's defintely tricky.

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ibr17xvii [297 posts] 12 months ago
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I have a Ribble bike & so far (touch wood) have had nothing but good experiences with them but I have to say I would be loathe to pay them their admin fee.

I know they say the bikes are built to order etc etc but they do offer a lot more off the shelf builds with just a tweak or 2 here & there than they used to so the fee to me just smacks of extra profit.

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alansmurphy [1832 posts] 12 months ago
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You can get a Cannondale CAADX with discs for a grand or a CAAD 12 for around the same - some of the best alloys on the market, or CAAD 8 with a few hundred to spare.

As said, I've no problem with carbon or either suggestion, they are both tempting, but I wouldn't spend that much on a bike I hadn't Sat on  1

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rjbstoke [2 posts] 12 months ago
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I was hell bent on getting a carbon bike last year (was going for the Ribble Gran Fondo) using their 3 year plan. 

Just as I was about to order a friend offered me his Rose Xeon RS(Alu) for a steal, so I went for it. It rides beautifully and I've got full Ultegra, which after swapping from Sora on my old Boardman is just astonishing. Best part of all is the weight. The Rose weighs in at less than 10kg, and is lighter than another friends carbon Bianchi, which for me being 100kg is another nice bonus when the road goes up.

Personally having had a cheaper groupset, I would invest in that more than the frame. Slicker more accurate gear changes are great, when you put the hammer down, the bottom bracket doesnt feel like it may give out and more precise powerful braking are all part of a better groupset.  

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Punches Dragons [24 posts] 12 months ago
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You can just about get a CAAD12 for £1000 on the bike2work scheme, although yet again they charge a 10% admin fee. It's not a bike that has cropped up in my searches before because of the normally higher price. It's certainly an option that I should be able to ride at my local bike shop, even if I have to order it online to get it at the £1000 mark. 

The downside is that I look at it and I feel no love at all for the aesthetics of it, it is not a pretty bike with that small amount of seatpost on display and the massive logos everywhere but the Ribble is no looker either and the very compact geometry of the Planet X is certainly not to everyones taste. 

It does seem to get good reviews though and it is a bike I can at least go and try locally before I commit. I do have Holiday time coming up so I could do the drive to Birmingham and Sheffield to try the other two. Thanks for the feedback everyone! More is also welcome.

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skwarczek [18 posts] 12 months ago
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Im pretty sure there is a Ribble pop up shop in Birmingham if you wanted to go and sit on one. They put the aero 883 on a turbo trainer for me so i could at least get a feel of what the type of bike is like. 

Yep, the store is in the mailbox. 

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ibr17xvii [297 posts] 12 months ago
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Punches Dragons wrote:

You can just about get a CAAD12 for £1000 on the bike2work scheme, although yet again they charge a 10% admin fee. It's not a bike that has cropped up in my searches before because of the normally higher price. It's certainly an option that I should be able to ride at my local bike shop, even if I have to order it online to get it at the £1000 mark. 

The downside is that I look at it and I feel no love at all for the aesthetics of it, it is not a pretty bike with that small amount of seatpost on display and the massive logos everywhere but the Ribble is no looker either and the very compact geometry of the Planet X is certainly not to everyones taste. 

It does seem to get good reviews though and it is a bike I can at least go and try locally before I commit. I do have Holiday time coming up so I could do the drive to Birmingham and Sheffield to try the other two. Thanks for the feedback everyone! More is also welcome.

As my best bike I have a Cannondale CAAD 12 105 from 2016 that I got at the end of season for less than £900. Dropped lucky though cos they only had 1 size left & that was mine.

If you can hang on a month or two I would deffo have a look around to see what you can pick up. August / Sept is a good time to buy as shops want to get rid of their 2017 stock to make room for next years.

Obviously not an exact science though as you are banking being able to pick something up in your size.

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Punches Dragons [24 posts] 12 months ago
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skwarczek wrote:

Im pretty sure there is a Ribble pop up shop in Birmingham if you wanted to go and sit on one. They put the aero 883 on a turbo trainer for me so i could at least get a feel of what the type of bike is like. 

Yep, the store is in the mailbox. 

I noticed that myself last night and that is definitely an option, I am off in a couple of weeks and Birmingham is under 3 hours drive.

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Punches Dragons [24 posts] 12 months ago
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As for picking up a cheap end of season bargain, that may be tricky with having to use the bike 2 work scheme depending on how flexible the retailer is. Some charge a premium and I imagine others will just flat out refuse. It's the first time I have used the scheme but it appears that I have to select the bike and retailer first, they then supply my employer the details and then I get sent a voucher which I then exchange for the Bike. The whole process takes some time and if I was a retailer I am not sure how bothered I'd be on a product that will be next to £0 profit for them. It's not impossible but I think I'd have to have researched a shortlist of options beforehand that may come down to the sub £1000 mark and preferably have ridden them to make it easier so I could choose and act fast if what appears to be a bargain comes along. The timing is right though as the next window for our bike to work is September 9th and I was planning to order almost straight away.

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The Gavalier [96 posts] 12 months ago
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Take a look at the Dolan Prefissio. Tried and tested refined frame, and you can pick and choose componentry. Spend a grand and you'll have a cracking, versatile bike. 

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alansmurphy [1832 posts] 12 months ago
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As for sale bikes, some will take a deposit whilst the voucher occurs...

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ChrisPriddy [2 posts] 12 months ago
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Sounds like your in the same situation I'm just coming out of!

Sounds like we do similar riding - mid level Sportives and fun solo riding.

I was also looking to spend £1000 ish using a cycle-not-to-work-scheme voucher (my commute is 37miles each way!!)

The Ribble was top of my list until I saw the admin charge, I begrudged spending £100 on admin rather than bike parts so looked elsewhere.

Ive just ordered a Dolan L'Etape. Carbon frame from a well respected frame maker. Small UK company not international 'brand'.

I went for 105 kit and upgraded the sadddle, wheels and tyres and bars from the standard. I liked the ability to select/upgrade parts in the design process.

Whilst I've not ridden it yet! I'm very pleased with my decision and the spec I got as a result.

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Mickeylove [3 posts] 12 months ago
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ChrisPriddy wrote:

Sounds like your in the same situation I'm just coming out of!

Sounds like we do similar riding - mid level Sportives and fun solo riding.

I was also looking to spend £1000 ish using a cycle-not-to-work-scheme voucher (my commute is 37miles each way!!)

The Ribble was top of my list until I saw the admin charge, I begrudged spending £100 on admin rather than bike parts so looked elsewhere.

Ive just ordered a Dolan L'Etape. Carbon frame from a well respected frame maker. Small UK company not international 'brand'.

I went for 105 kit and upgraded the sadddle, wheels and tyres and bars from the standard. I liked the ability to select/upgrade parts in the design process.

Whilst I've not ridden it yet! I'm very pleased with my decision and the spec I got as a result.

I've gone for the Etape too for pretty much the same reasons.  I kept the build to standard but added pedals and it all worked out at £995 put through Cyclescheme. Customer service was excellent and the bike rides incredibly well. Much stiffer than my Aluxx Giant bike and lighter. It is mega comfortable on long rides too. 

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Punches Dragons [24 posts] 12 months ago
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The L'etape looks like another option I had not considered. I'd have to do a tour of the North East to get around all the shops to try them all!  I have a mate in St. Helens so maybe I can visit him and go try out the bikes on the way home, except for the CAAD12 which my local bike shop has. Not having to cough up a £100 admin charge is also very attractive. That is basically pedals and shoes covered.

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Punches Dragons [24 posts] 11 months ago
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I've started to look a little in-depth at how feasible test riding these bikes will be:

  • Dolan are not insured to allow you to take the bike out of their showroom for a ride or return it if you don't like it under the bike2work scheme. They do allow you to try it in store on a turbo and they offer a fitting service for £40 on a showroom bike that they will then transfer to your bike if you order from them. They responded very promptly to my enquiry and their website did cover what their fitting service covered, it's not a retul fitting but will probably suffice my amateur needs. None of this rules the Dolan out but it would have been nice to see what is what like on the road. The only criticisms of it in reviews are down to the geometry being a little racy and the saddle being to taste but I think I could ascertain the first on the turbo and with the aid of the fitting.
  • Ribble are also not insured to allow you to take bikes out for a test ride, they did offer a 30 day trial but this is not available on cycle to work schemes. They did offer an instore fitting on a jig but not a lot of detail provided as to what that covers although it appears to be free of charge. They would exchange the bike if I got the wrong size but if I simply did not like it they will not offer a refund. I also asked if there was any chance of a discount on their £100 admin fee or upgrading the Rodi wheelset to Aksiums (which is normally £50 extra) since some of their competitors, i.e. Dolan don't charge it. They have refused to budge on that and claimed that £100 covers their additional costs.  Since the Dolan L'etape is the same groupset as the Ribble but comes with the better Aksium wheels Ribble are charging effectively £150 more for their Frame and the "admin/profiteering" charge. It must be a lot of Paperwork and labour to justify £100. My overall impression is Ribble really are not that interested in selling bikes on the cycle to work schemes and since the R872 frame has a history in reviews of being harsh and overly stiff I cannot commit to buying one without riding it or being able to return it.
  • Planet X I am still awaiting a reply from, and I had to email them through their website. (I dislike this as it is harder to provide an email trail after). I have asked them similar questions regarding fitting, visiting them to test ride and the admin fee. They do Retul bike fitting for £75 on one of their bikes or £125 on something else so I have enquired about the possibility of getting this done if/when I visit. It'll be interesting to see what they charge considering the circumstances and that they'd have to copy the fit on to a new bike. I have also enquired about the admin fee. They definitely could provide me some movement on that as they do a cheap Autumn/Spring Clothing bundle that I am also interested in. (I know it won't be fantastic quality but it'll likely get me through a season or two while I slowly upgrade it). I'll let you guys know.
  • My Local ish bike shop, (my absoloute Local bike shop seems to carry a very odd range of very high end esoteric fair and iirc Trek, they also have a crap website which seems to be down or throwing out security warnings half the time), is a Cannondale stockist and is selling the CAAD12 at a discount but not cheap enough to get it on the scheme. I want to test ride the bike but I could not afford it at that price, it is elsewhere for £999+£100 admin fee. I will give them a call and see if test riding it is possible but I feel a bit of a douche knwoing there is very little realistic prospect I will buy it from them.

Anyways, I am making some progress I feel and have at least ruled out the Ribble.

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skwarczek [18 posts] 11 months ago
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Where are you based Punches? If you're local to south wales, you are welcome to take my r872 for a test ride. 

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Punches Dragons [24 posts] 11 months ago
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skwarczek wrote:

Where are you based Punches? If you're local to south wales, you are welcome to take my r872 for a test ride. 

 

North of London so it'd be a bit of a Schlepp but thanks for the kind offer skwarczek. To be honest though I think I'd rather not give my money to Ribble, even if it is relatively small fry to them.  I know you like your bike, and it probably is a very nice machine but I just get the feeling from Ribble that they won't be very accomodating or easy to deal with and I totally begrudge the £100 admin fee with them.

It's just a cash grab. There cannot be that much additional Labour. Say it was 2 hours total to complete a form, send off the voucher and then check you get reimbursed for it and allocate the funds against the sale that'd still be only £30 labour for an admin memeber of staff. I could probably accept that, or even up to £50, but I bet it is much simpler than that and done on some form of Portal to cut the admin costs down for those running the scheme. I even suggested I pay the £100 and they do the upgrade to the Aksium wheels but they weren't interested. That's their choice obviously and I think the guy at Ribble was aware that I'd likely notpurchase after hearing his response to my email.

 

In other news no response from PX.  I will resubmit my email to them.

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don simon [2328 posts] 11 months ago
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I stopped using Ribble due to their attitude and hearing some of the sales pitches.

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kieren_lon [45 posts] 11 months ago
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Interesting as I am in the same boat - kind of.

I commute 26 miles round trip and was looking for a bike to replace my 2005 fuji track as I would like gears to do the odd longer ride.  The fuji has been fine with 25c wheels for my commuting but not so great for hills.

I like the look of the ribble CGR but have the same reservations as others.  I also wonder if in reality I will actually bother with panniers or changing narrow / wide tyres?  I also like the dolans but hate the colours.  A solid red or blue etc would suit me.

It' s my first post on the forums so not sure if Btwin is a bad word but I have shortlisted the £800 triban 560 CF (tiagra) and the Aluminium Ultra 900 AF (105).    I have £1000 voucher and will use the £200 change for a new helmet and some 28c contenentals.

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/C-359113-road-bikes

Radon are a german brand that have cycle to work distributors in the UK.  They have UK distributors but you will have to pay £100 admin.  A guy at work ordered one (MTB) and the handler split the £100 admin with him so he only paid £50.  They seem to offer good value.  

 

I like the look of radon but leaning towards btwin / decathlon as there is a physcial store not too far from me and they are priased for their customer service. 

Watching this this thread and hopefully some suggestions might guide my decision.

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Punches Dragons [24 posts] 11 months ago
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Well a bit more Ribble news today.  A couple of emails pinned about but basically Ribble just reiterated their position, they are just unwilling to budge on the £100 admin fee at all.  Paraphrasing here but they claim that as they are a direct to customer manufacturer they do not have any excess margin, compared to Evans (their example) to be able to absorb any of the costs of the bike2work scheme and that it costs them the £100 to administer the scheme. They also seem to think it reasonable to not offer any test ride or refund to bike2work customers but only an exchange for another bike should I be unhappy. I told them that I would not be making a purchase with them as they had left me no way of forming a value judgement about their bike, except from reviews etc. (which don't really set them apart from their competitors) and that their £100admin fee constituted very poor value for money. I also told them I'd tell of my experiences via social media, forums etc.

To be fair to them they have responded quickly to every email and I have no problem with the people I have dealt with at Ribble but their company policies let them down. I think if I was an easy, pay by card purchaser I wouldn't have had the problems, I could have used their 30day return if I was not happy with the bike and the admin fee would not have been a problem.

 

Planet X started to reply from my resubmitted email by responding that I was now registered with their helpdesk and their goal is to respond to all enquiries within 48 hours. Not a great start so far.

 

At the moment I'd say that without having test ridden them yet that my preference would be:

1st choice. Dolan L'etape with SRAM Rival (in lurid black and green)

2nd choice. Cannondale CAAD12 (a lot will depend on what price this eventually gets down to and the bike2work scheme conditions from the retailer. Hopefully I can test one next week)

3rd choice. Planet X Pro carbon

In the meantime my chip as chips 2016 Cube Attain is doing the job. It was an absolute steal at £375, I slapped some better cartridge pads on it and a cheap set of SPD pedals and will make a fine winter training bike once I get some more puncture resistant tyres on it and some mudguards.

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alansmurphy [1832 posts] 11 months ago
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I do have a little sympathy with Ribble and Planet X - I believe there are issues at play with the C2W scheme and margin. As you say the admin is rubbish but the hassle for virtually no profit probably just doesn't make it worth it.

The bike fit should be less of an issue, if you're comfy on your current bike you should be able to get the dimensions and compare. You really shouldn't be paying money for someone to tell you a bike will fit, and the adjustments in stem, saddle etc. are all pretty straightforward.

My C2W fun is becoming more fun... I fancy my n+1 being a Cannondale Slate Apex which is down from 1700 to just under 1200 and in stock by Cycle Store. Their website says they don't offer C2W on discount bikes only the full RRP and have had conflicting info between their Web and Shop people. This doesn't surprise me though, being just 8 miles form their store and 8.1 from their warehouse I wanted something that was online and they wouldn't let me collect from warehouse or walk it the few hundred yards to the shop, despite them willing to deliver for free. Time was of the essence for a sportive and their solution was they stocked them in the shop at around 30% more. That's another sale they lost!

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rtmie [3 posts] 11 months ago
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Eastway Emitter R3 from wiggle matches your spec at £1039. Seems to get good reviews. Maybe worth checking out.

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Punches Dragons [24 posts] 11 months ago
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PlanetX got back to me today. I can visit the showroom and try bikes out on a turbo trainer but no taking them out for a spin. They tell me the admin fee is variable depending on who runs the scheme.  I was sure I told them it was Bike2Work but I have responded so they can tell me how much it is.  As far as fitting is concerned they would do a basic fitting if I visited which would get me to pretty much the right size, I could then order the bike on click and collect, then return for a full retul fit.  At the moment it does not sound too different from Ribble's or Dolan's offer but at least with Dolan I have no admin fee to pay and I could do all the fitting in the one visit. I'll wait to see what the admin fee is like.

 

I had seen the Eastway Emitter R3 before, It looks a solid spec at this price point and at 8.2kg the lightest bike with the frame being a couple of 100g's lighter than the Dolan. Not that 200g matters too much to me and the weight isn't on the wheels were it'd probably hurt more (actually around 380g difference as far as I can tell but I would have the SRAM Rival groupset on the L'etape which would save around 190g).  As negatives, and this is a personal thing but I hate the Blue/Blue colour scheme, it would have been nice to have two options to choose and reviews seem to swing wildy in opinion about the ride.  As far as Wiggle go I'll need to look into their returns policy on bike 2 work but it is unfortunately another retailer that seems to only offer their 30 day trial on normal purchases and then we are back into the argument of at least having seen the bike in the flesh and preferably having a ride before.

 

Still feel like the Dolan or the CAAD12 are my best options but there is still time to see what crops up as 2017 bikes start to get cleared out for 2018.

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