Police investigate report cyclist threatened and pushed mobility scooter rider

Car Delenda Est wrote:

Does someone know what the law is regarding mobility scooters and wheelchairs on cycle infra? I looked this up a while ago and iirc could only find info about mobility scooters over a certain power rating being allowed on roads. I think that disabled people should be able to use anything up to a Canta sized microcar on cycle infra.

There's a summary here - https://www.gov.uk/mobility-scooters-and-powered-wheelchairs-rules

"You cannot drive any type of mobility scooter or powered wheelchair on cycle paths marked ‘cycle only’."

Tom_77 wrote:

Car Delenda Est wrote:

Does someone know what the law is regarding mobility scooters and wheelchairs on cycle infra? I looked this up a while ago and iirc could only find info about mobility scooters over a certain power rating being allowed on roads. I think that disabled people should be able to use anything up to a Canta sized microcar on cycle infra.

There's a summary here - https://www.gov.uk/mobility-scooters-and-powered-wheelchairs-rules

"You cannot drive any type of mobility scooter or powered wheelchair on cycle paths marked ‘cycle only’."

Thanks for finding that.  I'm bemused though; if you can ride an electric trike/quad on the cycle path, why not a mobility scooter or wheelchair?

The law isn't always completely logical. In this case you're talking about two things that, although similar in many regards, have different legal underpinnings - "invalid carriages" and "electrically assisted pedal cycles". 

And generally any form of "carriage" is restricted to the carriageway, except where permitted otherwise.

I'm not au fait with all the legislation, but there is legislation that allows invalid carriages to use footways, and there is legislation that says EAPCs are not motor vehicles (and by implication are treated the same as other cycles). 

But whether deliberately or by inadvertent omission, whatever legislation permits cycles (including EAPCs) to use cycle tracks did not extend to invalid carriages. 

Car Delenda Est wrote:

Does someone know what the law is regarding mobility scooters and wheelchairs on cycle infra?

They're not allowed to use any lanes marked cycle only, i.e. most if not all segregated lanes.* In practice I think most cyclists (including me) are relaxed about them being in the cycle lane, they're generally no more difficult to pass than a slower rider or a tricycle. As with everything else, a certain amount of commonsense needs to be applied, I did see not long ago on Westminster Bridge (where the cycle lane is pretty narrow) an elderly gentleman on a 4 mph mobility scooter tootling northwards at morning rush hour with a peleton of about thirty cyclists behind - it was actually quite amusing (I was one of the thirty), like the neutralised zone in a GT. To defend the frequently-traduced reputation of London cyclists, not one of them shouted, rang a bell or tooted a horn or tried to push past, everyone waited patiently and overtook as we reached the wider section by Big Ben.

*I assume, but am not sure, that this only applies to motorised chairs, so handcycles would be allowed.

Rendel Harris wrote:

They're not allowed to use any lanes marked cycle only, i.e. most if not all segregated lanes.* In practice I think most cyclists (including me) are relaxed about them being in the cycle lane, they're generally no more difficult to pass than a slower rider or a tricycle.

I wouldn't be that bothered about mobility scooters in cycle lanes / on cycle paths.

My bugbear is souped up food delivery motor scooters and motorbikes in segregated cycle lanes.  Yes, I get that they are two wheeled, but they are fast and powerful and a scarily large percentage of their operators (IME, YMMV) seems to drive like they have a death wish (or a wish for other people to die...).

Gosh - aren't we getting ahead of ourselves?  I thought in the UK we are supposed to wait until the problems arise, then wait to see if they will fix themselves, then wait to see if it is a growing issue, then keep an eye on it, then finally when the mob arrive at city hall set up a committee...

Issues I've seen currently around cycle infra (apart from it often being somewhere between 3rd class and shameful) are:
a) unfamiliarity e.g. just confusion or ignorance about what different spaces are for and how to behave there.  Not helped by our "motorists everwhere and the rest can fight over what's left", "sign a cyclepath into existence", "we won't impose petty standardisation if it's 'less than' road or rail" nor the fact that cycling is "new" (!)
b) Cycling is an uncommon activity - so people on bikes are a subset of the population.  So the "live free or die" and the criminal are likely overrepresented.  In Edinburgh we've had yoof on scrambler bikes causing trouble (and occasionally killing people) probably since said bikes have existed.

Over in NL they've got a historic thing with motor scooters and cycle infra which causes a lot of aggro - although I'm not sure how much bodily harm it causes though.  And as for mobility assistance that's all allowed.  Where there is good infra that should benefit everyone!

Its difficult to be overly concerned by mobility scooters, perplexing as they often can be when found on the roads or in cycle lanes.

But if they're all only limited to 4-8mph then I'm either a much worse cyclist than I thought or they go to the same shop the food delivery scooters go to.

And certainly some of the users of such devices arent very nice people, wonder if he's used his stick like that to hit a cyclist before? https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/23129043.police-enquiries-norwich-scooter-p...

Quote:

But if they're all only limited to 4-8mph then I'm either a much worse cyclist than I thought or they go to the same shop the food delivery scooters go to.

When I worked in South London, I was walking to a health centre in Erith early on before the shops opened so it was quite empty. Suddenly two mobility scooters came shooting around the corner, down the hill and straight over the zebra crossing. They definitely were going faster then somebody running, and definitely faster then allowed on the pavement. (Usually they have a switch to change from pavement allowed speed to road allowed speed). I'm not sure who won the Erith edition of a "Formula 65" race in the end though. 

It wasn't the KLF up to pranks again was it?

I can see why they have that rule for class 2 scooters, as if there's a 'cycles only' lane, there's usually a footway next to it, so a 4 mph mobility scooter should use that.

What is perplexing, is banning class 3 mobility scooters from doing 8mph in a cycle lane and on shared cycle tracks, yet making it legal for them to be in the road! Even a dual-carriageway (as long as they put on a flashing amber light, safety first!).

Here's an example, what is wrong with a mobility scooter doing 8mph on the cycle track, when e-trikes can legally do 15.5mph? To drive on the cycle track you'd have to limit your scooter to 4mph to stay legal, yet you could legally do 8mph on the dual-carriageway next to it!
https://goo.gl/maps/4Lhd6f1f3R3avWww9

I guess because the average unidirectional cycle lane is often barely the width of a mobility scooter it was thought, with the average person averaging about 15mph on the flat, that having 4mph or 8mph vehicles that couldn't be overtaken in the lanes would lead to conflict.

Allowing mobility scooters to go on dual carriageways is bonkers, fortunately very few users seem to avail themselves of the right.

I think the narrow cycle lanes that you can't move out of to overtake (like Westminster bridge) are quite unusual. Usually, the lanes are wider and if a painted line on the road, you can move out of it to pass. So, I'd let a class 3 do 8 mph on cycles only tracks and shared tracks.

I think 15mph is a bit higher than the average town cyclist will achieve - I'm struggling to do that on my road bike these days!

Rendel Harris wrote:

Car Delenda Est wrote:

Does someone know what the law is regarding mobility scooters and wheelchairs on cycle infra?

They're not allowed to use any lanes marked cycle only, i.e. most if not all segregated lanes.* In practice I think most cyclists (including me) are relaxed about them being in the cycle lane, they're generally no more difficult to pass than a slower rider or a tricycle. As with everything else, a certain amount of commonsense needs to be applied, I did see not long ago on Westminster Bridge (where the cycle lane is pretty narrow) an elderly gentleman on a 4 mph mobility scooter tootling northwards at morning rush hour with a peleton of about thirty cyclists behind - it was actually quite amusing (I was one of the thirty), like the neutralised zone in a GT. To defend the frequently-traduced reputation of London cyclists, not one of them shouted, rang a bell or tooted a horn or tried to push past, everyone waited patiently and overtook as we reached the wider section by Big Ben.

*I assume, but am not sure, that this only applies to motorised chairs, so handcycles would be allowed.

I note that the recent "fast fat bike" imbroglio in NL was more about the 'fast' ie over 25kph, rather than the 'fat bike'.

Wrt to cycle paths as opposed to cycle lanes, and particularly ones defined separate from road corriders:

What happens to a clip-on handcycle on a manual wheelchair? 

(Personally I think it is so confused as to be incomprehensible.

And I don't want any 'mobility scooters or X not allowed on cycleways to stop me using Equal Access legislation as a lever to get obstacles removed.

And I expect that Equality Legislation is that if a ped is allowed on a cycleway, then that is now also the case for mobility scooters and wheelchairs as they are likely defined as pedestrians in law.)