Swiss pro cyclist Gino Mäder dies after horrific Tour de Suisse crash

Although riders would be pushing the limits of rim brakes on turns. Granted, they might be slightly slower but over cooking into a turn is still an occurrence if going slightly faster then your skills/bike enables.

We used to have riders going over walls on descents previously. Gibert was on Rim brakes in 2018 for example.

AlsoSomniloquism wrote:

Although riders would be pushing the limits of rim brakes on turns. Granted, they might be slightly slower but over cooking into a turn is still an occurrence if going slightly faster then your skills/bike enables.

We used to have riders going over walls on descents previously. Gibert was on Rim brakes in 2018 for example.

Agreed.  I wasn't agreeing with it, just trying to work out a possible reason for the suggestion.

There is no evidence that riders are taking any more or fewer risks descending with disc brakes than with rim. The only time there was a spike in incidents was when they first appeared in the peloton and that was potentially due to there being a mix of braking ability both with the actual brakes and rider skill. 

Casartelli was riding with rim brakes. Wouter Weylands too. And I've set my fastest times on various road descents (4 Strava KOMs) using rim brakes. So your comment is spot on.

Festus is shit stirring because internet. I also watched the descent and indeed no-one was backing off. The point is that a descent like that at the end of a hard-fought stage is going to be raced full-on and the consequences can be severe, and potentially are in the case of Mader.

Here here.

We are all speculating the mindset of professional racers here. Everyone is individual, and everybody behaves differently in "the zone". Some people calculate absolutely everything and will back off only to the point they toe the line. Others are only focussed on their performance and being as fast as possible. they are less likely to back off, and will therefore be more likely to go over the limit. When you are so focussed like that, the risks and dangers don't get factored into your decision making. 

It's not in the mindset of a racer to worry about dangers in the moment. If they do, it's a guaranteed way to lose.

It's the same in any man & machine competitive sport, from F1 & MotoGP to Road and Downhill Mountain Bike racing. The responsibility of competitor safety is primarily that of the event governing bodies and organisers. You mitigate as many external risks as possible including defining appropriate route layout and features, equipment safety regulations and competitors code of conduct so that the competitors can focus on competition.

They often go into these sections without knowing any detail of current road conditions as well, and stage recon or previous rides along any stretch of road will be of limited help, as surface condition, weather and atmospherics constantly change.
 

This is why the organisers have a responsibility to risk assess the event (and individual stages) and action areas of high-risk.

A stage finish is where riders will go for maximum effort / speed and therefore risk of incident / injury is relatively high. This risk will be increased with a downhill finish.

tootsie323 wrote:

This is why the organisers have a responsibility to risk assess the event (and individual stages) and action areas of high-risk.

A stage finish is where riders will go for maximum effort / speed and therefore risk of incident / injury is relatively high. This risk will be increased with a downhill finish.

Bollocks, what a woke response. The riders have a responsibility to ride with the limits of their skill and the machinery under them. If they decide the risk is worth they will push the limit. The organisation cannot take responsibility for the mentality of the riders.

Old saying from motorsport. "To finish first you have first finish!"

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The organisation cannot take responsibility for the mentality of the riders.

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If that were the case Formula 1 cars would have  no seatbelts, no HANS, no Halo, no crash structure protocols and drivers would still wear open faced helmets. Provide a definitive meaning of "woke" before you brand it round like yesterday's laundry.

Yorkshie Whippet wrote:

Old saying from motorsport. "To finish first you have first finish!"

Given what's happened to safety in F1 over the last decade I can only assume you're being ironic.  Or would you prefer the good ole days with Senna dying and Lauda melting?  Woke or just not the bread and circus's an armchair critic like you expects?

"Bollocks, what a woke response. The riders have a responsibility to ride with the limits of their skill and the machinery under them. If they decide the risk is worth they will push the limit. The organisation cannot take responsibility for the mentality of the riders."

Even allowing for the fact that anyone using "woke" as a general pejorative is a cretin, that'd be an idiotic response even if a young man hadn't just died. 

The riders are at their workplace, and those providing that workplace have a duty to ensure it's safe for the job being asked of them. "Riding fast down a mountain" is part of their work, not some stupid idea that pops into their heads, and so the organisers are responsible (morally and in UK law) for making sure it's reasonably safe for them to do so. 

I don't know what you do for a living, but if there was a bit of equipment at work that would kill you if you used it even very slightly wrong or perhaps just due to bad luck, I reckon you'd expect your employer to take steps to minimise the chances of your dying. 

Firstly, my thoughts and sympathies go out to the family & friends of Mäder and to the Bahrain Victorious team.

I agree that the organisers cannot take responsibility for the mentality of the riders, but they can (should and, I'm sure, generally do) assess what risks might be associated with it - and action the higher risks.

I'm not sure in what context my response is being described as woke but, assuming that it is along the lines of the broad definition of awareness, I guess that's fair.

Thinking about ways that organisers might be able to reduce the chances of such heartbreaking events as yesterday's happening is "woke"? There are no words for how stupid that comment is.

Your response is just total bollocks. There is enormous pressure on riders to perform in professional racing - most contracts are for just a couple of years, and if you don't get results or aren't in some other way useful to the team (road captain, top domestique etc) then you'll soon find yourself unemployed as, if the team doesn't get the results and invites to the biggest races they will likely lose major sponsors and fold, as we have seen time and time again. Pressure leads to riders taking some risks, so a stage finish that is inherently dangerous where risk taking can lead to more severe consequences shouldn't happen in the modern era. Otherwise they'd not bother removing road furniture on any TdF sprint finishes, and keep the old barriers with the legs that stick out.

Festus wrote:

it is the riders taking chances, 

Bizzarely oversimplistic. Accidents and injuries are a result of the riding, the course and the conditions.  The risks arising from all 3 need to be managed.

Safety is the responsibility of the organizers, not the riders. This was established over many years of fatalities in motorsport - the circuit owners and organizers used to say "they know the risks, the throttle goes both ways". No longer the case (well, perhaps in rallying/Isle of Man TT) - the circuit owners and organizers have a well-established duty of care to the riders. Effectively the aim is to protect them from themselves. Yes the parcours should be challenging but it has to be challenging within limits. Which is why we have marshals flagging road furniture, etc.

Being Switzerland the TdS may be in big trouble over this, particularly if negligence is suspected. Fortunately I didn't see the crash but the motos showed they were doing almost 100kph in places. It was big and fast and wide and flowing meaning a tiny mistake could have big consequences. I noticed there was water across the road at one point, one of the guys in the chase hopped it.