Custom shoe designer surprised to hear Bradley Wiggins is a fan; Cyclist pushed off bike in ambush robbery; Former Tour de France leader banned; Sadiq Khan defends cycle lanes; Removal of bike lane delayed by protest + more on the live blog

There's no evidence that the 42% all made complaints. Probably most of them didn't.

58% in favor is great. You are much more likely to hear from people who don't like something, than from those who do.

If we all wrote them to tell them we found the M25 annoying and would like it removed, how many letters would they get from people saying they like it and use it every day?

Nigel, do you think all direct action protests imply "loonie", or just those carried out by SKC or XR?

Do you think civil rights marches in decades past were "loonie" too? Stonewall actions? Or just when it comes to cycling? Safe cycling is just as much a social justice issue as any of these.

Nigel Garrage wrote:

Specifically XR - these people have nothing to do with saving the planet and climate and are simply a bunch of anti-democratic neo-Marxists. A rent-a-mob who achieve nothing but the opposite to the stated aims of their "movement".

Dozens and dozens of examples, e.g. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/extinction-rebellion-protester-def...

They don't speak for me in any capacity on any issue.

Hmmm.  Anti-democratic neo-Marxists.  Hmmm.  Maybe you could provide some actual proof of your somewhat absurd allegations, instead of the single example you use to try to illustrate it, which merely proves the vindictive nature of the establishment to anyone who dares to challenge it?

I can't speak to their neo-Marxism, and it would be an insult to Marx to suggest that the mindless "boo capitalism" of much of XR owes much to his work. 
They're certainly anti-democratic though: a self-appointed group with no electoral legitimacy taking it upon themselves to affect the lives of other people, without giving those people any opportunity to approve or reject their actions. You may agree with those actions, but they are not democratic. 
I don't see that (near me at least) they're productive. The protest near me blocked Elephant & Castle at rush hour (when we had such a thing), so the main people affected were people (disproportionately poor and black) on buses, and middle-class cyclists like me. I didn't notice anyone saying "this is a great idea, I'll make sure not to use the car I don't have in future".

Nigel Garrage wrote:

eburtthebike wrote:

Hmmm.  Anti-democratic neo-Marxists.  Hmmm.  Maybe you could provide some actual proof of your somewhat absurd allegations

Well, let's see. There have already been examples posted... the defacing of Churchill's statue... The blockading of the free press... SWP and Young Communist Leage placards at the protests and infiltration of the organisation...

Then there is the "Rising up" draft manifesto (https://risingup.org.uk/draft-manifesto), a laughable "back-of-fag-packet" economic manifesto which appears to have been dreamt by an NUS 2nd year arts student. Abolishing interest on loans and effectively nationalising private property would appear to fix nicely into that model.

As for anti-democratic, their entire movement is based on anti-democracy - direct unpopular action, reviled by the vast majority of voters, directly against the legitimate parliamentary representatives of the people.

Hmm. But maybe you could provide some proof.

Plenty of demonstrations are disruptive.  That doesn't make them neo-Marxist or anti-democratic.  The involvement in some groups within a movement doesn't align the whole movement.  On the contrary, from its own website:

"If we are to have any hope of coping with the emergency, we have to move beyond the politics that have so far held us back, and into listening, dialogue and towards unity and action. Extinction Rebellion does not want to seize power, we want to place power in the hands of citizens."

That sounds quite democratic, to me.  It might not be the version of democracy you are used to or want (but then powerful fossil fuel lobby groups isn't really democratic, either), but it is expressly democratic, and its objectives are primarily climate-focused, for the bnenefit of all - which is also democratic.

I'm not against XR being described as Marxist, however I'd prefer it if that was the basis of an evidence-based objective assessment of its structure, beliefs and objectives, rather than used as a basis for pejorative insult.

Nigel Garrage wrote:

As for anti-democratic, their entire movement is based on anti-democracy - direct unpopular action, reviled by the vast majority of voters, directly against the legitimate parliamentary representatives of the people.

If only those anti-democratic, car-hating Dutch had listened to you instead of the "Stop the kindermord" movement, which blocked roads, demanded safety and hassled politicians, against the will of the majority.  Nothing just happens, you have to fight for what is right, democratic or not, especially when the majority are dumber than the average sheep.

Nigel Garrage wrote:

eburtthebike wrote:

If only those anti-democratic, car-hating Dutch had listened to you instead of the "Stop the kindermord" movement, which blocked roads, demanded safety and hassled politicians, against the will of the majority.  Nothing just happens, you have to fight for what is right, democratic or not, especially when the majority are dumber than the average sheep.

You originally said that calling XR anti-democratic was "[an] absurd allegation". Yet you've just claimed that the suspension of democracy is a means to an end, that "the majority are dumber than the average sheep", and that "you have to fight for what is right". I'm sure Tommy Robinson has a similar view to you, but we'll leave that discussion for another day.

I want you to do a little read-up on the "Stop the kindermord" movement: https://www.lcc.org.uk//pages/holland-in-the-1970s.

What do you notice about the photos, the descriptions? Do you think it looks similar to XR of today? No, of course not, because Stop the kindermord was a popular, peaceful, protest by normal people, against a disgracefully high number of road accidents and fatalities. It won because it achieved its aims through reasoned argument in a democratic manner. No statues or monuments were desecrated. No newspapers were blockaded. No one treated the protests as a dressing up competition.

Everyone has a right to peacefully protest, and peaceful protest has a long history in our democracy. It shines a light on injustice, and brings a public understanding of the issues at hand, putting pressure on politicians to act, eventually causing them to crumble under a deluge of public opinion.

The way that XR go about "protesting" alienates rather than unites. They detract from the issues at hand and antagonise the very people they need to persuade. But that's because they don't want to really solve the problem - they are professional protesters who want to fight. They are like 5 year olds who've never heard the story of the North Wind and the Sun.

You are Socraticycless and ICMFP.

No but XR could help their cause(s) greatly by dropping their brand of politics from it,which is always just below the surface of every stunt they do.

The Daily Mail isnt responsible for this cycle lane removal, they havent relentlessly campaigned against it or forced the council to do anything, so what does protesting outside their office actually achieve, let alone mean ?

Will Kensington & Chelsea council turn around & go, sorry got that wrong your protest outside the Daily Mail totally convinced us to reinstate the cycle lane,thanks XR for opening our eyes to this injustice.

Because that's the aim of the protest right ? To get the cycle lane reinstated...

Awavey wrote:

No but XR could help their cause(s) greatly by dropping their brand of politics from it,which is always just below the surface of every stunt they do. The Daily Mail isnt responsible for this cycle lane removal, they havent relentlessly campaigned against it or forced the council to do anything, so what does protesting outside their office actually achieve, let alone mean ? Will Kensington & Chelsea council turn around & go, sorry got that wrong your protest outside the Daily Mail totally convinced us to reinstate the cycle lane,thanks XR for opening our eyes to this injustice. Because that's the aim of the protest right ? To get the cycle lane reinstated...

Any protest action is political. Any group or individual that participates brings their own brand. It is impossible to leave your politics behind whilst participating in action for change.

Theres nothing political about wanting cycle lanes,and it should be possible to totally leave politics out of it, because all that happens if you dont is instead of rationally debating with opponents,from all political views, cycle lanes and showing them the real benefits, we spin off in tangents and argue about what Marxism really is or whats the latest meme we can attach to former UKIP leaders, none of which advances the case for a cycle lane one iota.

And that's what annoys me the most, it diverts all the attention, focus& energy away from the thing we actually want to campaign about and actually should be caring about the most, those kids who rode that cycle lane yesterday are impacted by these decisions, we owe it to them to be a bit more grown up about how we campaign on their behalf.

Awavey wrote:

Theres nothing political about wanting cycle lanes,and it should be possible to totally leave politics out of it, because all that happens if you dont is instead of rationally debating with opponents,from all political views, cycle lanes and showing them the real benefits, we spin off in tangents and argue about what Marxism really is or whats the latest meme we can attach to former UKIP leaders, none of which advances the case for a cycle lane one iota. And that's what annoys me the most, it diverts all the attention, focus& energy away from the thing we actually want to campaign about and actually should be caring about the most, those kids who rode that cycle lane yesterday are impacted by these decisions, we owe it to them to be a bit more grown up about how we campaign on their behalf.

I'm sorry Awavey, but I can't agree

politics
noun
UK  /ˈpɒl.ə.tɪks/ 

US  /ˈpɑː.lə.tɪks/
 
B1 [ U ]
the activities of the government, members of law-making organizations, or people who try to influence the way a country is governed

[Source https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/politics]

It's all about changing government, at whatever level, local or national. It is intrinsically political

Wanting cycle lanes is common sense, right? To us, it all falls into place as making complete sense.  Taking a car on a three mile journey across town is in most instances disproportionate, lazy, costly etc. 

Yet I still come up against what to an awful lot of people is their "common sense" e.g. that bike lanes hold up the traffic, aren't used, "dear Mr Editor, my four mile trip took an hour yesterday..." "the main road is closed 9 miles away from my small town centre pub and my trade is affected" and all the rest of it.

Many People have no experience of cycling, other than as some far-off childhood thing; they now have no memory of life before it was cars everywhere, all the bloody time, and they have no vision of what it could be like future-wise.

Our proposition of the future is alien to them - instead of the warm and comfy no-effort SUV leased on such reasonable terms - we offer sweat, oily hands, out of breath, cold, chafing.  No wonder they react with such horror, develop I can't possibly cycle infirmities, and run in to the welcoming arms of Conservative politicians. 

This absolutely is political - we have engage with and  to play the politics to try to gain ground.  Even if others opt to vandalise the LTN planters. 

David9694 wrote:

Wanting cycle lanes is common sense, right? To us, it all falls into place as ...

That to me David? if so couldn't agree more

There is no point in not engaging politically. Eg why campaign for a cycle lane - do you then campaign for the next? And the next? How many hard-fought battles do you have in you?

Change the policy, however, and then you only have to fight once.... (in theory)

"Politics" has become a dirty word, for the likes of Mogg, de Pfeffel etc. But it encompasses any desire for change, and therefore cannot be left behind.

Boopop wrote:

Nigel, do you think all direct action protests imply "loonie", or just those carried out by SKC or XR?

Do you think civil rights marches in decades past were "loonie" too? Stonewall actions? Or just when it comes to cycling? Safe cycling is just as much a social justice issue as any of these.

Just wait until someone tells him about Emmeline Pankhurst and her crowd.....

Captain Badger wrote:

Boopop wrote:

Nigel, do you think all direct action protests imply "loonie", or just those carried out by SKC or XR?

Do you think civil rights marches in decades past were "loonie" too? Stonewall actions? Or just when it comes to cycling? Safe cycling is just as much a social justice issue as any of these.

Just wait until someone tells him about Emmeline Pankhurst and her crowd.....

It's just totally undemocratic, demanding a vote.

eburtthebike wrote:

....

]It's just totally undemocratic, demanding a vote.

There needs to be a consultation. With the anti-mob only...

And as for attending a Martin Luther King rally, well...

Captain Badger wrote:

Boopop wrote:

Nigel, do you think all direct action protests imply "loonie", or just those carried out by SKC or XR?

Do you think civil rights marches in decades past were "loonie" too? Stonewall actions? Or just when it comes to cycling? Safe cycling is just as much a social justice issue as any of these.

Just wait until someone tells him about Emmeline Pankhurst and her crowd.....

I did consider mentioning the suffragettes!

What's 'loonie' about wanting safe streets, clean air and healthy people?

By the way, your name seems to be associated with a nasty manipulative liar, though maybe you have different views from that particular piece of work.

Triggered? I must admit that every time I see that face, I think of Toad of Toad Hall,

I wonder how he'll get on now that his campaign of sucking up to Trump has ended?

That is rather an undignified comment. You're being deliberately unpleasant and provocative. Farage is an arsehole, and I had assumed that you weren't.

Username is a combination of a bottom-trawling, fraud-committing bilge merchant and a motor car storage facility.

May as well have named themself "I'm a huge trolling troll please give me some attention".

Velo-drone wrote:

Username is a combination of a bottom-trawling, fraud-committing bilge merchant and a motor car storage facility. May as well have named themself "I'm a huge trolling troll please give me some attention".

I suspect it's a sock puppet account of a certain attention-seeking troll on this site.

hawkinspeter wrote:

I suspect it's a sock puppet account of a certain attention-seeking troll on this site.

No doubt whatsoever - my professional expertise is in linguistics and semantics and it sticks out like a sore thumb! If one ran any of the commonly-available language-checking programs on their posts they would return a 90% probable match.

He does have form.  Boo was him as well.

Edit - For clarity the Boo that disappered at the same time as his sabatical, not the similarly named account that has posted on this thread.

Actually, Extinction Rebellion is the logical conclusion of the science of global heating - it's the 'not-in-my-namers' who are the loonies.

Vigilantes, a culture war = LTN planter vandals; XR ...  Discuss. 

XR did a couple of massed Saturday cycle rides around Salisbury city centre - was it last summer or was it 2019, I lose track. Anyway, however well intentioned (or just point scoring) it may have been, I'm not convinced it was all that helpful, since it's ordinary Joe's like me that are going to be mixing with the slightly more pissed off with cyclists than before drivers, come Monday morning.

The people friendly Salisbury thing was strangled at birth and lasted barely a month. What would happen if we the went whole hog and removed all the one ways and roundabouts as well, I wonder.