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I thought the bloke was contrasting his "toot" with a possible other course of action. On what I've seen, he come across as pretty calm and sensible.

HarrogateSpa wrote:

"a courteous elderly couple"

'Are you stupid?'

'If I'd shouted get out the fucking way you moron...'

I'm not making a judgement on the rights and wrongs of the situation overall, but that is not a courteous elderly couple.

Even the cyclist agreed it was a warning 'toot', because the fella was concerned the cyclist was weaving about in the road on the phone with no hands on the bars, which is very different from a "BEEEEEEEEEEEEP" that is meant in an aggressive way.

HarrogateSpa wrote:

"a courteous elderly couple"

'Are you stupid?'

'If I'd shouted get out the fucking way you moron...'

I'm not making a judgement on the rights and wrongs of the situation overall, but that is not a courteous elderly couple.

Picking those individual words out, and not the full sentences along with the tone of their conversation certainly doesn't make them seem "courteous" but listening to them in context is a very differet matter.

As far as I understand it the used the horn to warn another road user of their presence, when (they believe) the manner of his riding suggest he is not ware of them seems fairly reasonable to me.

Having said that we all know how it feels to have a car horn going off only a few feet away and it is not pleasant, and the chances are that this was being done as a way of giving the rider a telling off, and it isn't smart to ride like that in traffic, in fact it is stupid.

I have to agree here, I have no issue with riding nohands and even using a phone to take photos while riding, but NOT when there are other road users around.  Or small children or animals likely to cross the road.

However two wrongs don't make a right and "I wish I'd knocked you off" can't be defended either.

It seems a shame that a park, where you go for leisure and relaxation, etc seems to be the scene of so many flash-points day after day.  If I was the park authorities, I'd be asking myself what changes to access I should be making that would reduce this.  (In case not clear - no cars in the park.) 

It's finely balanced for me, but I think we have to set the example to drivers of what we need them to do, so at least one hand on the bars, no phone calls, no selfies, or wheelies if if you're able to pull them. 

Nigel Garrage wrote:

Re: cycling no-handed, dreary me, fancy posting that to the internet and thinking you're morally in the right! Somehow my mind gets drawn to the article the other day about the woman who was filmed with a cargo bike against her wishes with the footage posted on the internet - this pathetic trend has to stop, the driver and his wife seemed perfectly reasonable, sensible people, why are they being dragged through the twitter gutter?

There's no law to stop the voyeur who filmed this pathetic video jumping off a cliff, so I'd suggest perhaps he considers that for his next hobby.

This cyclist sets a terrible example, and is breaking the law despite their arguing to the contrary. Careless or Dangerous Cycling: This cyclist was not in control of their bike, was not cycling with due care or attention, and should not have argued from a position of moral superiority. Blame lies on both sides here, but the cyclist was in the wrong too.

Jenova20 wrote:

This cyclist sets a terrible example, and is breaking the law despite their arguing to the contrary. Careless or Dangerous Cycling: This cyclist was not in control of their bike, was not cycling with due care or attention, and should not have argued from a position of moral superiority. Blame lies on both sides here, but the cyclist was in the wrong too.

Having unicycled quite a bit in my past, I'd disagree that you're not in control just by not having your hands on the bars. Generally, cyclists not in control of their steed are not riding upright for very long, so if you see someone cycling along and not just about to fall off, then you can infer that they are indeed in control.

Ultimately, deciding whether a cyclist was using due care and/or attention is a judgement call, so it's debatable as to whether the cyclist was infinging any laws. Personally, I can't see that he was endangering anyone (he could easily reach for his bars if he started to lose control), and he certainly wasn't threatening violence.

I'm thinking that maybe we should stop the easily spooked motorists from driving in parks if they are so affronted by a cyclist that they threaten violence.

The person he got into an argument with said he was on the phone, and veering towards the middle of the road. Had the police been behind him, i've no doubt they would have also pulled him over for his dangerous cycling.

Jenova20 wrote:

The person he got into an argument with said he was on the phone, and veering towards the middle of the road. Had the police been behind him, i've no doubt they would have also pulled him over for his dangerous cycling.

I don't recommend cycling whilst using a phone, but I don't see it as being a major source of danger (especially in the middle of a park which would seem to be an appropriate place for more relaxed cycling). Veering towards the middle of the road really shouldn't be dangerous to anyone unless they're performing an unsafe overtake.

There's a clear difference in the levels of threat posed by an individual cycling along and an individual (or couple) in a tonne of metal that's also belching out dangerous particulates. I know which one I'd rather see in public parks and green spaces.

hawkinspeter wrote:

Jenova20 wrote:

The person he got into an argument with said he was on the phone, and veering towards the middle of the road. Had the police been behind him, i've no doubt they would have also pulled him over for his dangerous cycling.

I don't recommend cycling whilst using a phone, but I don't see it as being a major source of danger (especially in the middle of a park which would seem to be an appropriate place for more relaxed cycling). Veering towards the middle of the road really shouldn't be dangerous to anyone unless they're performing an unsafe overtake.

There's a clear difference in the levels of threat posed by an individual cycling along and an individual (or couple) in a tonne of metal that's also belching out dangerous particulates. I know which one I'd rather see in public parks and green spaces.

And there's a clear difference between cycling with due care and attention, in a safe manner, and not doing so. This cyclist was not doing so.

Jenova20 wrote:

And there's a clear difference between cycling with due care and attention, in a safe manner, and not doing so. This cyclist was not doing so.

You've made an assertion, but it's largely down to your opinion. I would tend to agree with you if someone did that outside of a park (and I do see people doing that in Bristol), but there was no indication that the cyclist put anyone in danger or that he was not paying sufficient care or attention.

hawkinspeter wrote:

Jenova20 wrote:

And there's a clear difference between cycling with due care and attention, in a safe manner, and not doing so. This cyclist was not doing so.

You've made an assertion, but it's largely down to your opinion. I would tend to agree with you if someone did that outside of a park (and I do see people doing that in Bristol), but there was no indication that the cyclist put anyone in danger or that he was not paying sufficient care or attention.

The problem there is you are making judgements about what is, and is not safe.  A driver might well argue that whilst stopped in a traffic queue, there is no harm in a quick look at facebook, or another thinking there is little risk in driving a high-performance car at over 100mph on a deserted motorway.  A cyclist without hands on bars is not in full control of the bike.

PRSboy wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

Jenova20 wrote:

And there's a clear difference between cycling with due care and attention, in a safe manner, and not doing so. This cyclist was not doing so.

You've made an assertion, but it's largely down to your opinion. I would tend to agree with you if someone did that outside of a park (and I do see people doing that in Bristol), but there was no indication that the cyclist put anyone in danger or that he was not paying sufficient care or attention.

The problem there is you are making judgements about what is, and is not safe.  A driver might well argue that whilst stopped in a traffic queue, there is no harm in a quick look at facebook, or another thinking there is little risk in driving a high-performance car at over 100mph on a deserted motorway.  A cyclist without hands on bars is not in full control of the bike.

By default, the assumption is that someone's behaviour is safe - there should be some kind of incident or known hazard to declare that someone is unsafe. Whilst stopped in a traffic queue, there's arguably no danger in looking at facebook (except for facebook being a society and mind destroying cancer), but the danger comes when the motorist decides to start moving and assumes that there are no new hazards in front of them.

"Full control" would mean different things to different people and I'd rather trust Danny Macaskill pulling a wheelie than an occasional cyclist that is out of practise. e.g. a child learning to cycle wouldn't be in "full control" and taking them to a park to learn would be considered a good thing and not a danger to others.

(It'd be semi-interesting to set up an obstacle course and let loose some cyclists attempting it no-handed and some drivers in their cars and see if there was any significant difference between them. I bet that any course that motorists could navigate would be easy enough to do no-handed on a bike)

hawkinspeter wrote:

Jenova20 wrote:

And there's a clear difference between cycling with due care and attention, in a safe manner, and not doing so. This cyclist was not doing so.

You've made an assertion, but it's largely down to your opinion. I would tend to agree with you if someone did that outside of a park (and I do see people doing that in Bristol), but there was no indication that the cyclist put anyone in danger or that he was not paying sufficient care or attention.

The police agree with that assertion:

• https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q604.htm
• https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q407.htm
• https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q955.htm

Jenova20 wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

Jenova20 wrote:

And there's a clear difference between cycling with due care and attention, in a safe manner, and not doing so. This cyclist was not doing so.

You've made an assertion, but it's largely down to your opinion. I would tend to agree with you if someone did that outside of a park (and I do see people doing that in Bristol), but there was no indication that the cyclist put anyone in danger or that he was not paying sufficient care or attention.

The police agree with that assertion:

• https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q604.htm
• https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q407.htm
• https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q955.htm

Well, the first link states that it is not illegal (per se).

The second link states that dangerous cycling exists.

The third link relates to driving, so not particularly relevant.

The cyclist may or may not have been cycling in a dangerous fashion, but without evidence, it's difficult to form a judgement. My opinion is that riding no-handed and/or whilst using a phone is not recommended, but it depends on the circumstances as to whether it causes danger. Generally, I wouldn't give a second thought if someone does that in a park, but if they did it on a pavement or a busy road, I'd be hoping that they don't come a cropper.

The ultimate judge of paying due care and attention is how the cyclist/driver can deal with hazards. If a cyclist sees a hazard, grabs his handlebars, slows down and avoids the hazard, then I'd consider that to be due care and attention. If a driver pulls out of a junction without seeing a cyclist and causes a collision, then I'd consider that to be not paying due care and attention even if they had both hands on the wheel and weren't using a phone.

The third link clearly mentions cyclists if you had read it. It even has a handy heading for "cyclists":

"Cyclists
The mobile phone legislation only applies to motor vehicles. However, if a cyclist was using a mobile phone, they could commit offences such as careless or dangerous cycling."

I did read those, but it doesn't really resolve anything, as it ends in "it depends" which is kinda the starting point of HP's first response.

Sorry, I hadn't scrolled that far down.

Again that's a "could commit" so it'd be down to the police person's opinion. I'd be surprised if police were worried about cyclists in a park, though they might well decide to stop a phone using cyclist on pavements or busy roads (which I wouldn't necessarily agree with - phone using cyclists tend to police themselves by reducing speed and those that don't usually end up with a broken phone and some new bruises and scrapes).

Interestingly, the following section mentions smart-watch use by drivers. It'd be an unlucky driver that got prosecuted for paying at a drive-thru using their smart-watch or phone. As much as I dislike seeing drivers using phones, I would not have a problem with them doing it at a drive-thru.

I used to see it as a challenge when I finished a late night shift in Camberly, to ride no handed all the way back home to Yateley, thumbs in back jeans pockets and hands out of the wind.  There would be no traffic, but there were roundabouts, junctions hills and a bridge over railway lines.

Occasionally I wouldn't make it all of the way, just a touch on the bars because of traffic, or on the brakes for red lights, but I never fell off. 4-5 miles I guess.

On my racers, when I started on the mountain bikes could never do no handed, far too "active", my most recent Ultimate Commuter is a little more stable, but I'm a bit out of the habit.

ktache wrote:

I used to see it as a challenge when I finished a late night shift in Camberly, to ride no handed all the way back home to Yateley, thumbs in back jeans pockets and hands out of the wind.  There would be no traffic, but there were roundabouts, junctions hills and a bridge over railway lines.

Occasionally I wouldn't make it all of the way, just a touch on the bars because of traffic, or on the brakes for red lights, but I never fell off. 4-5 miles I guess.

On my racers, when I started on the mountain bikes could never do no handed, far too "active", my most recent Ultimate Commuter is a little more stable, but I'm a bit out of the habit.

Yeah, I'm too cautious (chicken?) to attempt no-handed on my road bike as I'm out of practice doing it and really don't want to throw carbon down the road (let alone my beautiful pelt). Unicycles are in some respects easier to control no-handed as you can use your hips to steer as well as general leaning. I'd definitely go for a mountain-uni over a penny-farthing for rough terrain though my skills aren't great.

I have to say I'm pretty much in agreement. The cyclist said it was just a toot, so seems pretty reasonable from the driver who seemed a very reasonable person too.

It doesn't even really mean that - it means that a lot of Instagrammers uploaded photos with tags like 'cycling'. Which is really just another way of saying that there are a lot of bikes in those cities.

I can tell it doesn't mean much real, as Atlanta, GA, USA is on the list. Other than some nice paths that aren't really useful for transport, that is one of the worst places to cycle in the country.

brooksby wrote:

Quote:

Another user Urbane Cyclist, had a different opinion: "Riding with no hands is really quite easy.

I have never managed to successfully ride with no hands on the handlebars.

I try it from time to time when safely away from the Big Motorised Metal Boxes, but somehow always end up veering to the right and falling off... 

I also can't cycle no handed.  I'm always rather embarrassed by this.

Steve K wrote:

brooksby wrote:

Quote:

Another user Urbane Cyclist, had a different opinion: "Riding with no hands is really quite easy.

I have never managed to successfully ride with no hands on the handlebars.

I try it from time to time when safely away from the Big Motorised Metal Boxes, but somehow always end up veering to the right and falling off... 

I also can't cycle no handed.  I'm always rather embarrassed by this.

Handlebars? Pah! Cheating!. Not REAL cycling.... might as well stick an engine on and have done with it.

Headset may need adjusting.

Maybe so but unfortunately it's the headset connected to my body, and I cant Worzel Gummidge up a new head