Freight Transport Association says responsibility for cyclist safety around HGVs shouldn't rest solely with lorry operators

If HSAW had applied to some of the cases I've seen from London the managements would be in the dock along with the drivers.

HSAW applies a duty of care - or to put it in terms of a campaign for road users, which Mark Cavendish correctly described but is frequently misreported on - presumed liability. You have equipment in use which can damage or harm, so you must ensure that it has all safety systems working and is operated by a proficient operator.

Eilidh Cairns and Nora Gutman killed by same driver, with a record of minor crashes due to driving with defective eyesight, for which ha had been sacked by sime employers yet still taken on by others.

Catriona Patel Killed by a driver whose employer failed to have any checks on drivers starting work drunk, or on their employees previous driving history (over 20 bans and otehr penalties for driving illegally)

Kingsland Road - truck in service with missing/broken nearside mirrors, turned left on cyclist - no come-back on operator for faulty mirrors.

Same truck with small sub contractor - killed 2 puts another in wheelchair, twice with same driver and no one challenges operator.

road collisions connected to building sites should be reported as if they were workplace accident

I think this would make a big difference. At the moment the incentive is there for lorries to take risks as the penalty for killing someone (points on licence and a small fine) is outweighed by the benefits of squeezing another load in. The penalty is also given to the individual driver, not the company.

Health & Safety is a powerful force in industry. A quick search for HSE cases shows that fines in the range of £100,000 are handed out for workplace accidents involving lorries*. Companies sit up and pay attention to this, unlike the justice system, the HSE has teeth.

* http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2011/coi-e-3211.htm

Lots of people are commenting about how safety starts with oneself. I couldn't agree more, but other than getting the train to work there is a limit to what I can do. Sure I can (and do) cycle safely around HGVs in urban areas but there's nothing I can do about the gravel lorries coming from Hadleys** at over 50mph, overtakng me round corners on the narrow country roads I frequent.

** http://www.hadleys.co.uk/

tony_farrelly wrote:

Most of those deaths are at junctions and involve cyclists turning both left and right, or positioned ahead of the lorry with the intention of going straight on. Those killed at left turns had in some cases filtered up through slow or stationery traffic to the front of the queue and then been killed because they were in the lorry's front blindspot and the driver pulled away quickly. You really don't need to be a genius in central London to know that just cos you can't see one there could easily be a cyclist in the fairly sizeable blindspot at the front of a big lorry.

I just try to avoid anything big like a plague at lights/junctions and stay behind. I'm empathizing with a lorry driver here. Blind spots are always there whether you wait before setting off or not and there can be cyclists behind and in front. Censors/awareness courses sure, but I think cyclists should treat sides or fronts of lorries like herbivores treat anything related to big carnivores.

Most of them say what you're saying GKAM, but the point is if you drive a lorry - and I have driven a lorry, I also spent a sizeable chunk of my younger years in the cab of a very heavy HGV driving around the streets of London - then you'd better make damn sure you know what's in your blindspot especially before you pull away from a junction and especially when the roads are full of vulnerable road users. If you don't you're gong to kill someone. End of.

Also let's all try and get our facts straight before spouting off about cyclists being killed because they ran up the inside of lorries. I think I've read the reports on pretty much all of the deaths of cyclists killed by lorries in London over the past few years and in other parts of the country - and certainly the ones killed by construction lorries on London's roads. Most of those deaths are at junctions and involve cyclists turning both left and right, or positioned ahead of the lorry with the intention of going straight on. Those killed at left turns had in some cases filtered up through slow or stationery traffic to the front of the queue and then been killed because they were in the lorry's front blindspot and the driver pulled away quickly. You really don't need to be a genius in central London to know that just cos you can't see one there could easily be a cyclist in the fairly sizeable blindspot at the front of a big lorry.

I've also seen the immediate aftermath of what happens when a cyclist does run up the inside of a left turning tipper lorry - way back in the 80s a courier was crushed right outside my front door. It wasn't the driver's fault the courier was by all accounts moving fast and probably thought he could jump the apex of the turn - he couldn't and went under the wheels. That sort of incident though is rare, again I can only go by the reports I've read but most of the victims of these incidents are not courting risk at all, quite the reverse - something I would expect the FTA's representative to know.

The best advice for cyclists is always not to put yourself in a dangerous position in relation to lorries, but there's little you can do if one pulls up alongside you or immediately behind you at a junction. It's also got to be said that avoiding lorries all together is not really an option if you have to ride on urban main roads.

A couple of points on lorry blind spots, it's quite easy to over-take other road users particularly relatively slow moving, vulnerable ones and for them to disappear in to your blindspot. As a driver it's your responsibility see them in the first place and then assume that they are still there and act accordingly so that you don't pass so close that you either hit them or, in the case of a cyclist cause them to lose control and go under your wheels.

The other thing worth remembering is that in many lorry cabs the height of the driver is going to be a big factor in the size of the blindspot, it'll be smaller for a tall driver and larger for a small driver. So you might think you're not in the blindspot, but if the driver is a little bloke you might well be. As a vulnerable road user the person you really don't want to meet is a short, tired/stressed/aggressive lorry driver in a hurry.

Finally from my vantage point on a bike being passed by lots of big lorries on my daily commute I think it's fair to say that far too many HGV drivers are far too complacent about their driving skills particularly when it comes to passing cyclists at a safe distance.

I haven't bothered to read all the comments because I can guess what they say,

The article is right though, Its not SOLELY upto lorry drivers to protect cyclists. If you put yourself in a blind spot or try to nip past a lorry without knowing the road and put yourself in a dangerous position, then on YOUR head be it

I suspect what she's getting at is cyclists shouldn't cut up the inside of large vehicles. She's right but the report is talking about construction traffic specifically and it does disproportionately kill more cyclists than other large vehicles.

There's no doubt cyclists could do more to improve their own safety, but there's nothing at all that cyclists do that explains why construction traffic is more lethal than lorries, buses, coaches etc.

Life is all about politics though, she's got to be seen to push back against anything that would cost the industry more money otherwise she wouldn't be doing her job properly.

'Yes andyp, I was quoting the original headline of road.cc who were clearly saying just that (hence my quote marks). Grammatically, I would have needed to have added two sets of quotation marks in my comment to make your comment correct.'

Thanks for clarifying your understanding of the working of quote marks. As such, you will, I'm sure, understand that at no time did Road.cc say that the response used those exact words.

Sorry rowes but we do NOT push a 'them' and 'us' agenda here on roadcc and never have. We try to present the facts of a story and it's context in as objective an neutral a way as possible. The original headline on this story didn't match up to those criteria and was changed to something that reflects the content of what the FTA representative actually said.

I totally agree that HGV awareness training for cyclists would be a good thing, but the fact remains that HGVs, and construction lorries in particular, account for a disproportionate number of cyclists killed and seriously injured on urban roads - not just in London, but in other big cities too, 10 cyclists were killed by HGVs in Manchester in 2011.

Yes, as the FTA say everyone must take responsibility for their safety but the greatest share of that responsibility must fall on the operators and drivers of those lorries because they are the ones operating a particularly lethal type of vehicle on to the roads.

In all the reports of lethal and serious injuries inflicted on cyclists by lorries over the last few years in London we've seen poor road design, driver inattention, or carelessness cited as the major contributory factor, but I can honestly remember no case where risky or illegal behaviour by the cyclist has been cited as the main cause of the collision.

A significant number of those killed or seriously injured by HGVs in recent years have been female cyclists who were either doing the right thing when turning at a junction or thought they were doing the right thing as directed by the road markings. I can remember no reports on any of those deaths in recent years involving cyclists and HGVs that suggest that the cyclist was doing anything that might be called risky or illegal behaviour - if you remember, Boris Johnson recently apologised for making that suggestion.

There is a problem with the way construction traffic operates in big cities by and large cyclists are the victims of that problem and not the cause. We don't know what exactly the FTA representative meant by her comments whether she was stating a simple truism or was signalling that the organistion would be pushing back against what might add up to significant investment in driver training, and retro-fitted safety equipment, as well as potential changes in working practises. Our original headline shouldn't have ascribed any extra meaning to her remarks, but equally it is worth pointing out that the horrendous cost of the current situation are not being borne by the FTA or its members.

Where does she say it is "up to cyclists not to get run over"?
Please could you highlight where the response says " It's up to cyclists not to get run over by construction lorries"?

erm...you've added the quotation marks, not Road.cc!

Well said sodit, I am sick to death of cyclists complaining about cars/vans/lorry's almost everybody else, how about the horse rider who nearly took me out yesterday !!!

LOOK AFTER YOURSELF... THINK EVERYBODY IS OUT TO KILL YOU, it will be safer.

Use your eyes, if there is a left hand junction coming up, do not undertake the vehicle, they won't look, they won't indicate and that 1 in 1,000 chance that they turn left can be the difference between life and death.

Now don't get me wrong, there are still idiot drivers out who will still try to kill you even though you have done everything right and we need to keep fighting to improve driver's awareness and up their observation and skill, but as cyclists, we also need to do the same, beware of the danger and rider always thinking the driver is an idiot and out to kill us, extreme yes, but it works.

As a cyclist, motorcyclist and car driver (I know spawn of the devil) I get fed up with many cyclists thinking and saying its up to everyone else to look cyclists safety on the road! Reduce speed limits, ban cars, etc. etc. sorry but it gets a bit yawn in the end.

Well folks but being on the roads is like working in industry or any other job. SAFETY begins with YOU and its up to YOU to be as SAFE as you can and not expect every one else to look after YOU, because they wont! Most road users do not appreciate the difficulties of other on the road. Not just cyclists either, but also the difficulties that large vehicle drivers have as well, like all round vision etc. Having said that all road users need to do there best around other users but some cyclists and motor cyclists seem to think they are indestructible sorry folks 100kg of bike and rider versus 1 tonne family car in any collision who’s going to come off worse.

Yes I know its your right of way but in the end if the driver of the vehicle ain’t seen you he ain’t going to stop. As we all know OUCH or DEAD can be the result

In essence what I am saying is we all could do better in being safe on the road, more education not just condemnation that’s what needed.

People find what I have typed strange but that’s the way I see it, there seems to be an attitude in the UK of thinking, everyone else is responsible for me and my actions, but not me!

My sister in law is being charged for pulling out in front of a cyclist usually I would be the first to tell her that she was something impolite, but when it turns out that cyclist had no lights, dark clothes and only a rear reflector at 21:00 on a bad winters night well that does go some way in mitigation.
But she still should have seen him. Look and Look and Look again.

REMEMBER THAT HOWEVER STUPID AN ACTION IS, SOME BODY WILL DO IT! OR AT LEAST TRY TO.

I know many people will not understand my attitude but I think it comes from being older and not seeing the world through rose coloured spectacles.

Rant over.

Safe road use, long life and health

You know who’s to blame for all these lorries don’t you? Good ol Dr Beaching shutting down all those old railway lines seen to be not profitable and forcing freight on to the roads and in doing so increasing the size of lorries over the years to cope with the extra volume.

Why would you pay per load if it has no effect?

@Road.cc - Please could you highlight where the response says " It's up to cyclists not to get run over by construction lorries"?

disgraceful comment on cyclists in Honest John motoring column of Satureday's Daily Telegraph; main problem for me as a cyclist is cars/lorries overtaking and them pulling over because they have misjudged my speed (rarely more than 20mph) and encounter traffic coming the other way. Then I am in the gutter with potholes, sunken drains, etc.

It's up to lorry drivers not to run over other road users

What's with the Daily Mail-esque headline? The response may not be good but it certainly doesn't appear to be as bad as your headline suggests. Where does she say it is "up to cyclists not to get run over"?

I find such emotive interpretations and headlines do not help the cycling debate and only serve to increase the "us vs them" mentality.