Near Miss of the Day 260: Driver cuts up cyclist then confronts him (now with video)

Jimbonic wrote:

I'm interested. How many people on here have been actually physically assaulted? I'm not talking about someone veering into you or even knocking you off. But, someone getting out of their car and either grabbing hold of you and threatening to rearrange your features or actually punching you? The former happened to me; just because I called someone a dick for going through a red light past me. It is truly frightening. I'm 70 kg, 178 cm tall and have avoided physical altercation since primary school. To be lifted up by your ruck sack straps and dragged down the street is not pleasant. No matter how much you think you'd be able to handle it - no you won't.

It depends on what you mean by actually assaulted.  If you mean the layman's definition of someone laying hands on you, then no.  But in law, an assault does not require physical contact.   My first physical altercation took place when I took exception to borderline psychopathic driving, and voiced this exception quite loudly.   The first one swerved his car into the kerb in front of me, blocking my escape, and came around the side of the car at me.  I struck first and put him down.  The second time I was actually off the bike when someone didn't like the fact that I standing on 'his road'.  I refused to move.   Again, he was quite obviously gearing up to hit me, so again, I hit first, by kicking him in the stomach/chest area.  Again, he went down.   Both times, plod were called, and both times (with the help of cameras and witnesses), I walked away.  

Yes, it's awful.  No one in his right mind actually relishes the prospect of doing violence to another human being.  And afterwards, I felt sick.  Even now, I wonder 'could I have done it differently?'  Even when in the right (as I was - incontrovertibly), I feel bad for having hurt someone.  

But at the end of the day, if someone comes at you with the intent to do harm and gets harmed instead, he is the sole responsible.  I might have got gobby when I was almost knocked off, but I did not threaten and I did not abuse.  

My advice is to be ready.  Go to self defence classes.  I've been doing Krav Maga for a good number of years, specifically because I hate violence and I want to be able to avoid it whenever I can.   If the ballon goes up, defend yourself and get out of dodge.  It might be tempting to 'punish' the driver, but that's not your call.  Once he's no longer a threat, walk away.  If you can get away without involving the police, do so.  Otherwise, stay and explain yourself.  

Be courteous, but do not be anyone's punchbag.  

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

Jimbonic wrote:

I'm interested. How many people on here have been actually physically assaulted? I'm not talking about someone veering into you or even knocking you off. But, someone getting out of their car and either grabbing hold of you and threatening to rearrange your features or actually punching you?

It depends on what you mean by actually assaulted.  If you mean the layman's definition of someone laying hands on you, then no.  But in law, an assault does not require physical contact.   My first physical altercation took place when I took exception to borderline psychopathic driving, and voiced this exception quite loudly.   The first one swerved his car into the kerb in front of me, blocking my escape, and came around the side of the car at me.  I struck first and put him down.  The second time I was actually off the bike when someone didn't like the fact that I standing on 'his road'.  I refused to move.   Again, he was quite obviously gearing up to hit me, so again, I hit first, by kicking him in the stomach/chest area.  Again, he went down.   Both times, plod were called, and both times (with the help of cameras and witnesses), I walked away.  

Yes, it's awful.  No one in his right mind actually relishes the prospect of doing violence to another human being.  And afterwards, I felt sick.  Even now, I wonder 'could I have done it differently?'  Even when in the right (as I was - incontrovertibly), I feel bad for having hurt someone.  

My advice is to be ready.  Go to self defence classes.  I've been doing Krav Maga for a good number of years, specifically because I hate violence and I want to be able to avoid it whenever I can.   If the ballon goes up, defend yourself and get out of dodge.  It might be tempting to 'punish' the driver, but that's not your call.  Once he's no longer a threat, walk away.  If you can get away without involving the police, do so.  Otherwise, stay and explain yourself.  

Be courteous, but do not be anyone's punchbag.  

I am genuinely interested in people's experiences. I've been knocked off five times, driven at, had things thrown at me, etc. But, the sheer powerlessness of being dragged away and knowing that if I didn't diffuse the situation somehow I would get beaten to a pull was really frightening. Worse than any of the other incidences.

I have thought about taking up some sort of self defence class. But, a) I don't have the time to commit to it and b) should it really be a necessary skill for commuting to work?! (I'm not having a pop Legs. Your skills are worthwhile. I take my daughter kick boxing so she can burn off energy, learn discipline and, of course, be able to defend herself/diffuse aggressive situations)

I'm not sure where I was going with this, now. Except, I am genuinely interested to know how people actually deal with these situations. Not, how they would deal with them. For instance, your get in there first strategy wouldn't work for me, Legs. I'm pretty sure I'd end up in a much worse situation.

In my case, I weighed up the situation (I was being dragged down into a quiet street), sucked up my indignation and said, "Sorry". To my surprise, it worked. He let go of me, called me a cunt again and walked off.

I reported it to the police. But, didn't take it further, as my only witness said he wouldn't want to make a statement, as the person in question was (probably) from a certain community. I got it on record, but played safe.

Jimbonic wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

Jimbonic wrote:

I'm interested. How many people on here have been actually physically assaulted? I'm not talking about someone veering into you or even knocking you off. But, someone getting out of their car and either grabbing hold of you and threatening to rearrange your features or actually punching you?

It depends on what you mean by actually assaulted.  If you mean the layman's definition of someone laying hands on you, then no.  But in law, an assault does not require physical contact.   My first physical altercation took place when I took exception to borderline psychopathic driving, and voiced this exception quite loudly.   The first one swerved his car into the kerb in front of me, blocking my escape, and came around the side of the car at me.  I struck first and put him down.  The second time I was actually off the bike when someone didn't like the fact that I standing on 'his road'.  I refused to move.   Again, he was quite obviously gearing up to hit me, so again, I hit first, by kicking him in the stomach/chest area.  Again, he went down.   Both times, plod were called, and both times (with the help of cameras and witnesses), I walked away.  

Yes, it's awful.  No one in his right mind actually relishes the prospect of doing violence to another human being.  And afterwards, I felt sick.  Even now, I wonder 'could I have done it differently?'  Even when in the right (as I was - incontrovertibly), I feel bad for having hurt someone.  

My advice is to be ready.  Go to self defence classes.  I've been doing Krav Maga for a good number of years, specifically because I hate violence and I want to be able to avoid it whenever I can.   If the ballon goes up, defend yourself and get out of dodge.  It might be tempting to 'punish' the driver, but that's not your call.  Once he's no longer a threat, walk away.  If you can get away without involving the police, do so.  Otherwise, stay and explain yourself.  

Be courteous, but do not be anyone's punchbag.  

I am genuinely interested in people's experiences. I've been knocked off five times, driven at, had things thrown at me, etc. But, the sheer powerlessness of being dragged away and knowing that if I didn't diffuse the situation somehow I would get beaten to a pull was really frightening. Worse than any of the other incidences. I have thought about taking up some sort of self defence class. But, a) I don't have the time to commit to it and b) should it really be a necessary skill for commuting to work?! (I'm not having a pop Legs. Your skills are worthwhile. I take my daughter kick boxing so she can burn off energy, learn discipline and, of course, be able to defend herself/diffuse aggressive situations) I'm not sure where I was going with this, now. Except, I am genuinely interested to know how people actually deal with these situations. Not, how they would deal with them. For instance, your get in there first strategy wouldn't work for me, Legs. I'm pretty sure I'd end up in a much worse situation. In my case, I weighed up the situation (I was being dragged down into a quiet street), sucked up my indignation and said, "Sorry". To my surprise, it worked. He let go of me, called me a cunt again and walked off. I reported it to the police. But, didn't take it further, as my only witness said he wouldn't want to make a statement, as the person in question was (probably) from a certain community. I got it on record, but played safe.

I can only sympathise with what sounds like an appalling experience, and I am glad you managed to walk away with only your pride bruised.  

I was also the victim of violence, although it was a while back and it wasn't a driver.  My response: I ran.    And that day, I swore: never again will I run away.  

Unfortunately, in today's Britain, being able to fight is a requirement for the cycle commuter.  Unless you're prepared to spend the rest of your days being the victim.  You have the right to use the road.  You owe no one deference.  No one has the right to use unprovoked violence on you. 

I don't know what else to say.    

Jimbonic wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

Jimbonic wrote:

I'm interested. How many people on here have been actually physically assaulted? I'm not talking about someone veering into you or even knocking you off. But, someone getting out of their car and either grabbing hold of you and threatening to rearrange your features or actually punching you?

It depends on what you mean by actually assaulted.  If you mean the layman's definition of someone laying hands on you, then no.  But in law, an assault does not require physical contact.   My first physical altercation took place when I took exception to borderline psychopathic driving, and voiced this exception quite loudly.   The first one swerved his car into the kerb in front of me, blocking my escape, and came around the side of the car at me.  I struck first and put him down.  The second time I was actually off the bike when someone didn't like the fact that I standing on 'his road'.  I refused to move.   Again, he was quite obviously gearing up to hit me, so again, I hit first, by kicking him in the stomach/chest area.  Again, he went down.   Both times, plod were called, and both times (with the help of cameras and witnesses), I walked away.  

Yes, it's awful.  No one in his right mind actually relishes the prospect of doing violence to another human being.  And afterwards, I felt sick.  Even now, I wonder 'could I have done it differently?'  Even when in the right (as I was - incontrovertibly), I feel bad for having hurt someone.  

My advice is to be ready.  Go to self defence classes.  I've been doing Krav Maga for a good number of years, specifically because I hate violence and I want to be able to avoid it whenever I can.   If the ballon goes up, defend yourself and get out of dodge.  It might be tempting to 'punish' the driver, but that's not your call.  Once he's no longer a threat, walk away.  If you can get away without involving the police, do so.  Otherwise, stay and explain yourself.  

Be courteous, but do not be anyone's punchbag.  

I am genuinely interested in people's experiences. I've been knocked off five times, driven at, had things thrown at me, etc. But, the sheer powerlessness of being dragged away and knowing that if I didn't diffuse the situation somehow I would get beaten to a pull was really frightening. Worse than any of the other incidences. I have thought about taking up some sort of self defence class. But, a) I don't have the time to commit to it and b) should it really be a necessary skill for commuting to work?! (I'm not having a pop Legs. Your skills are worthwhile. I take my daughter kick boxing so she can burn off energy, learn discipline and, of course, be able to defend herself/diffuse aggressive situations) I'm not sure where I was going with this, now. Except, I am genuinely interested to know how people actually deal with these situations. Not, how they would deal with them. For instance, your get in there first strategy wouldn't work for me, Legs. I'm pretty sure I'd end up in a much worse situation. In my case, I weighed up the situation (I was being dragged down into a quiet street), sucked up my indignation and said, "Sorry". To my surprise, it worked. He let go of me, called me a cunt again and walked off. I reported it to the police. But, didn't take it further, as my only witness said he wouldn't want to make a statement, as the person in question was (probably) from a certain community. I got it on record, but played safe.

It's human nature, I think, for the strong to oppress the weak.  Whether it's a government using its power to impoverish the already impoverished, or a driver getting in your face to intimidate you.   

I hate bullies.  There is only one way to deal with them and that is to hit them so fucking hard that they never come near you again. 

Happily, not all altercations end that way.  I remember being 'ganged up on' once by a moped rider and a van driver.  Neither approached me physically so it was just words.  The moped rider said something like, 'Look at him, thinks he's sick with his camera'.

The use of 'sick' in this infantile way just made me burst out laughing.  That was when he threatened to knock me off my bike.  We were both stationary at that point, so 'knock off' didn't mean with his vehicle.

'Do it, man,' I replied.  'Do it.  See what happens'.

And he fucking knew I wasn't kidding.  God, I hate bullies.  I'd have fucking destroyed the c**t if he'd laid a hand on me.

He rode away.  

I'm not Jason Bourne.  It's entirely possible that one day, I'll get a kicking.  But there are some principles worth dying for, and standing up to bullies is (IMHO) one of them.  

Jimbonic][quote=Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

But, the sheer powerlessness of being dragged away and knowing that if I didn't diffuse the situation somehow I would get beaten to a pull was really frightening.

We've had a whole thread on this, and it is "defuse" not "diffuse".

Jimbonic wrote:

I'm interested. How many people on here have been actually physically assaulted? I'm not talking about someone veering into you or even knocking you off. But, someone getting out of their car and either grabbing hold of you and threatening to rearrange your features or actually punching you? ...

Yes, but the individual's concerned (on two occasions I can remember) didn't get out of their cars, but tried to punch me from inside their cars. One made contact, but so weakly I just started laughing*. The other I remember tried and missed, can't remember my response, probably a shake of the head and move on.

Nothing like your experience which sounds horrible.

* The same driver insisted they were driving a stolen car.

Jimbonic wrote:

I'm interested. How many people on here have been actually physically assaulted? I'm not talking about someone veering into you or even knocking you off. But, someone getting out of their car and either grabbing hold of you and threatening to rearrange your features or actually punching you? The former happened to me; just because I called someone a dick for going through a red light past me. It is truly frightening. I'm 70 kg, 178 cm tall and have avoided physical altercation since primary school. To be lifted up by your ruck sack straps and dragged down the street is not pleasant. No matter how much you think you'd be able to handle it - no you won't.

yes it is frightening and it has happened to me. https://youtu.be/JrrS9lcqFh4

The registered owner refused to identify the driver and ended up with 6 points and a hefty fine. We’d all like to think how macho we’d be....this scared the crap out of me. I swore at him once for an extremely close pass and this was his reaction. Pleased it was acted on. 

brooksby wrote:

Dear Simon MacMichael - your story is missing a certain something.  Like, the actual video we're all supposed to get all righteously indignant over.  Just sayin'...

Is it ok to get indignant about the vid being missing?  I'm sure I could work up a head of steam about being forced to imagine the horrific scene and the beetroot faced gammon.

brooksby wrote:

Anyhoo- does anyone know when/if we'll get to see the NMoTD video?

New series needed near miss near miss of the day of the day.

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

A driver gets out of his car following a 'near miss' or an altercation, you have to assume that he is going to hit you. 

You do not need to wait until he does so, before defending yourself.  

I believe that's known as "getting your retaliation in first".

fukawitribe wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

A driver gets out of his car following a 'near miss' or an altercation, you have to assume that he is going to hit you. 

You do not need to wait until he does so, before defending yourself.  

I believe that's known as "getting your retaliation in first".

No.  It's known as exercising one's right to self defence.  

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

fukawitribe wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

A driver gets out of his car following a 'near miss' or an altercation, you have to assume that he is going to hit you. 

You do not need to wait until he does so, before defending yourself.  

I believe that's known as "getting your retaliation in first".

No.  It's known as exercising one's right to self defence.  

Yes, you don't have to be hit to he assaulted, but in fear of being hit.

hirsute wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

fukawitribe wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

A driver gets out of his car following a 'near miss' or an altercation, you have to assume that he is going to hit you. 

You do not need to wait until he does so, before defending yourself.  

I believe that's known as "getting your retaliation in first".

No.  It's known as exercising one's right to self defence.  

Yes, you don't have to be hit to he assaulted, but in fear of being hit.

"A driver gets out of his car following a 'near miss' or an altercation, you have to assume that he is going to hit you."

Assumptions can be dangerous.  Burden of proof will 'beyond reasonable doubt'.  So going full tilt and decking someone because they got out the car, especially in a 'their word against yours' situation may not be the best.  I reckon I would at least trying to defuse the situation,  possibly then shouting 'back off, or the police are called', and getting my bike in the way, that kind of thing - before going all ninja...

dassie wrote:

hirsute wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

fukawitribe wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

A driver gets out of his car following a 'near miss' or an altercation, you have to assume that he is going to hit you. 

You do not need to wait until he does so, before defending yourself.  

I believe that's known as "getting your retaliation in first".

No.  It's known as exercising one's right to self defence.  

Yes, you don't have to be hit to he assaulted, but in fear of being hit.

"A driver gets out of his car following a 'near miss' or an altercation, you have to assume that he is going to hit you."

Assumptions can be dangerous.  Burden of proof will 'beyond reasonable doubt'.  

No it isn't.  The standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' is essentially a court room test, and concerns the act and the state of mind of the accused (see actus reus and mens rea).  

The test on 'reasonableness' where force has been used and the accused invokes the right to self defence, is subjective, and will be based on what you honestly believed to be the case at the time of the incident (R v. Williams (G) 78 Cr App R 276) and R. v. Oatbridge, 94 Cr App R 367)).   Then there is an objective element, which is: would a reasonable person placed in the same situation, consider the force used to be reasonable?  

In Palmer v R 1971 AC 814, Lord Morris stated that '.. it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action'. 

Your right to self defence is a common law doctrine, and one provided for by statute - see s. 3(1) of the Criminal Law Act 1967 and s. 76 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008.  

My favourite quote is from Palmer: 'it is good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and good sense that he may do, but only do, what is reasonably necessary'.  

I would not advocate that, faced with a 5'' woman who gets out of her car, you respond with a D-lock to the face followed by multiple stab wounds.  To do so would be symptomatic of a not inconsiderable degree of psychopathy in someone suggesting such a course of action.   But if you remember the case where the geezer in a 4x4 (I think he had his own catering business or something?) got out and threatened the cyclist, the test for 'common assault' was complete in that case, I believe. 

I have used force twice.  In both cases, I have been vindicated, even when in one of them, the driver sustained injuries.  But the only reason I stuck around was that there were CCTV cameras all over the shop, and several other drivers who were witnesses.  Had the events happened on a country road in rural Wiltshire, I'd have acted the same, but would have scarpered after putting the driver in the recovery position and removing the keys from his vehicle (to send anonymously to the police later on). 

But I would never advocate such a strategy. 

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

...

The test on 'reasonableness' where force has been used and the accused invokes the right to self defence, is subjective, and will be based on what you honestly believed to be the case at the time of the incident

...

My favourite quote is from Palmer: 'it is good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and good sense that he may do, but only do, what is reasonably necessary'. 

Thanks for the clarification.

I naturally try and avoid confrontations, and 'leg it' first if possible, when things look nasty, 'works' for me...  Fortunately not been in this situation.

dassie wrote:

Legs_Eleven_Worcester wrote:

...

The test on 'reasonableness' where force has been used and the accused invokes the right to self defence, is subjective, and will be based on what you honestly believed to be the case at the time of the incident

...

My favourite quote is from Palmer: 'it is good law and good sense that a man who is attacked may defend himself. It is both good law and good sense that he may do, but only do, what is reasonably necessary'. 

 

Thanks for the clarification.

I naturally try and avoid confrontations, and 'leg it' first if possible, when things look nasty, 'works' for me...  Fortunately not been in this situation.

I hate confrontation, too.  Contrary to the image I might portray here, I'm not spoiling for a fight every time I get on the bike. 

But I will not under any fucking circumstances get out of someone's way because he 'pays road tax' and I don't.  And I'm not anyone's punchbag.

Much is made in the media of 'respect' between road users - although of course, almost all media outlets in this pisshole of a country redefine 'respect' between car drivers and cyclists as the latter deferentially (even reverentially) getting out of the way of the former, lest their progress be hindered by even a second.  

Treat me with respect, and I shall do likewise.  Treat me like your punchbag and you're in for a sore face.  

(unless you're bigger than me, in which case I'll get the sore face, but if necessary, I'll die defending myself)