German track cycling team hit by driver in major Mallorca collision, three riders seriously injured

mctrials23 wrote:

Whats the betting that even a basic competency test every few years after the age of 70 would remove a large number of dangerous older drivers?

That reminds to me to try and find that recent ITV documentary that was on the other evening on that very subject.  I presume it'll be on ITVX?

The 'driver' that changed my life forever was 80.

mctrials23 wrote:

Whats the betting that even a basic competency test every few years after the age of 70 would remove a large number of dangerous older drivers?

I'd start even younger...  (I actually think driving licences should need renewed after a period, whatever age).

However the numbers indicate that the greatest benefit would be in addressing the young folks.  (Elderly folks have a high KSI rate but currently lower absolute KSI numbers as they're covering less distance, I believe).  Graduated driving licences - can we get on with this please, government?  (They just found time to update the cycling offenses...)

Completely agree. Every 5-10 years wouldn't be out of the question IMO. What I found quite funny recently was Americans acting all superior and shocked that we don't have to renew our licenses in Europe for the most part. As far as I understand it, thats basically a pointless check in the US, their tests and driving tests are comically easy and their don't have anything like an MOT so their cars are not only far more dangerous than most of ours in every way but there is no check on emissions etc. America and their superiority complex that baffles everyone else eh. 

I tend to agree that regular re-tests is a good idea, although AIUI it's already very hard to get a test, and so there would need to be massive increase in testing capacity (there are currently over 40 million licence holders in the UK. Even if we only retested every 10 years, that's an average of >4 million tests per year. Currently <2 million tests per year are carried out, so we would need to more than triple the test capacity).

I would also note that there's a distinction between young people choosing to drive dangerously but being perfectly capable of driving safely in a test, and old people who's frailty means they are incapable of driving safely. More testing might weed out the latter but have relatively little impact on the former. Especially when you consider that the highest risk tends to be people within a few years of first passing, so unlikely to be due a retest anyway (the Gov summary uses the 17-24 age class so that's a maximum of 7 years since first passing).

Graduated driving licences seems like a very good option from a safety perspective, although (assuming the sort of restriction you have in mind is not being able to carry other young people as passengers) then do need to make sure this doesn't just lead to more singularly occupied cars on the road.

I think that's fair.  Just noting that as you've written that you can see that it's incredibly hard to get away from any narrative of "we need at least the capacity for cars (tests, vehicles) we have now plus..."

Change has to be possible - again this has been done in other countries (and not just NL or "Copenhagen").

At some point in the discussion has to address the fact that making things "better" in any dimension is going to be very hard to do if not impossible without reducing our capacity for driving / parking (or numbers who can) or spending large sums of money.  Actually - both - but the "reducing driving" is a necessity.

Just don't see how that can get to be a mainstream notion right now (even if "mainstream and very unpopular").  Currently the idea that we should choose "pain and cost for drivers" seems to be pretty much unsayable.  And we're at the point where it's hard to lure people positively with a convincing vision of that "better" - we're so far away.  Yet this is the point where we need maximum motivation!

As for "money" - we already know we're essentially pouring money into holes in the ground (e.g. pot holes) trying to maintain and cope with "natural" growth in existing driving.  (Never mind the induced demand we'll get if/when we do).  But to e.g. "make driving safer" - that's lots of examiners, LOTS on the police, tech (who knows).  Or - to provide alternatives - TONS on public transport ... and maybe even some for active travel.  The latter is apparently both something that we should only ever expect to spend pennies in the transport tenner on, AND something we can't afford!

I've actually found (from talking to TVP in the past) that the police are actually quite sympathetic towards older drivers. I get it. There are few other options, in the villages around here, other than to drive, but it can't trump road safety

I had an incident recently with an elderly lady that could barely see over her stearing wheel. https://youtu.be/8PdOt0lj5LU  (terrible quality I'm afraid). Northants Police have advised that they will be sent on the course. I'd like to think that the course might also review fitness to drive but I somehow doubt it.

The problem with so many of our rules and laws is that they take the view that we can't take away peoples freedom. You 100% can when their freedom is potentially at the expense of someone elses life. Your right to drive doesn't trump my right not to be knocked off my bike because you are dangerous and that applies to every age of driver. 

Your right to drive doesn't trump my right not to be knocked off my bike
It does here, and in Gloucestershire (at least). Close passing doesn't exist as an offence in Lancashire and all such reports are now binned. Bungle has shown us that Gloucestershire will do nothing but send out the joke advice letter no matter how close, how large the vehicle or how fast the driver passed you.

I remember driving through rural France many years ago and as the road entered a village or town (not all, but some) there was cut out of a child attached to a sign with their first name and words to the effect 'tué par excès de vitesse'. Killed by speeding.  It was quite effective especially when there were two or more cut outs.