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My brief for a perfect frameset at the moment is basically:

Take an 'endurance' road bike (i.e. light, fast, but upright for desk jockeys wanting to do centuries)

Add large tyres, ideally 35s.

Add mudguards

Add rim brakes, mini-vs/cantis probably for clearance around tyres and guards.

Such frames do exist, for example my current singlespeed commuter (Charge Plug, no gears though) and the Gunnar Crosshairs. The Kinesis 4s comes close but I'm suspicious of how big a tyre you could get in there with a calliper and mudguards. Edit: Forgot to mention the Van Nicholas Amazon Touring - Ti with canti brake mounts.

I've spoken to one custom framebuilder so far (Shand) and they basically couldn't do a canti frame for me, he didn't explain why (I admitted early on I was still window shopping) but I guess it means setting up a new jig or ordering new tubes specific to canti-brake frames.

Lots of CX bikes on the market obviously but the bottom brackets are typically a lot higher than a road bike, and the geometry usually a lot more aggressive.

Likewise lots of tourers, but they're heavier, stiffer etc (I had a lovely Salsa Vaya for a while, just always rode 'dead' when ridden as a road bike).

Anyway, anyone aware of any other examples?

Ta

//www.pedalroom.com/p/gunnar-crosshair-19035_1.jpg)

Gunnar Crosshairs

//activesport.co/WebRoot/Store5/Shops/80c85f8f-7a95-4b1c-9c30-e64b314f3f2e/55C8/C3C3/C631/6304/389D/0A48/350B/0781/1.jpg)

Charge Plug (the pink fixation is just a coincidence, honest!)

31 comments

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Boatsie [230 posts] 5 months ago
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I use a used Avanti Blade Comp. Alloy with cromoly forks. Holes to mount guards/racks front and rear. Was a flat bar to replace an aged flatbar road bike, the bike was faster but the bars weren't my like.
Fitted drop bars and shifters didn't fit. Changed front from triple to double (mostly from wrecks lying around with cracked frames).
Anyway initial build of commuter became a nice gravel bike. Pretty light, fits 38mm with guards so 40mm guardless won't be a hassle.
I like it.
If I bought new I like GTs. Don't know if better or worse just had 1 before and it was strong. I also like Reid because they cost less.
Best luck.

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Argos74 [484 posts] 5 months ago
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2 questions:

  • What's the intended useage of the bike in terms of distance, terrain and speed? (If multiuse - say road riding, touring, gravel rides, commuting - what % for each)
  • How wedded are you to rim brakes? Considering disc brakes opens up a whole world of possibilities.
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IanEdward [199 posts] 5 months ago
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Oof! Now you're asking!

Probably 75% road riding, but on manky winter backroads with all the associated potholes and field run-off, 25% gravel rides (i.e. when my Garmin leads me down a farm track I thought was a road when plotting the route!).

Terrain would ideally be hilly as I can make it, and distance could be anything between 50km and 150km I guess, which is why I'm looking for something with gears as experience has taught me I'm not quite man enough for 150km of hills on my singlespeed.

I guess actually speed isn't so important, it's more for winter miles and I've been perfectly happy on my 10kg commuter, perhaps I should be considering touring bikes again...

Pretty well wedded to rim brakes. I know exactly what you mean about the world of possibilities but there seems to be some wierd quirk in my riding style, weight, speed or something which renders most disc brakes a high maintenance, noisy and largely underwhelming prospect on my bikes. I actually own a disc brake bike at the moment and will only take it out when I really have to, and it's guaranteed to be dry. Meanwhile my rim braked commuter just keeps on trucking along. 

I'm sure with a lot of experimentation and money I could find a set of disc brakes that works the way I want them to (i.e. silently) but it just seems easier to find the perfect rim braked frame!

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alansmurphy [1832 posts] 5 months ago
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My number 1 bike is full carbon rim braked (dry days) and my commuter was a Specialized Allez Claris disc (which i fell out of love with), I purchased a GT AL disc for wet rides which was much closer to my best than communter.

 

I have now fully winterised the Spec commuter, full guards, secondary brake levers and 13-34 on the cassette. Did 50 miles on it yesterday and loved it - those mucky country lanes were aweome, only bothered going round 50% of the potholes and spinny enough for the big hills in spite of the weight. In fact, at a time of year where interval training and PRs are essentially off the agenda on most of our roads, maybe a heavier bike makes sense - just wait til I hit the carbon  1

 

My ramblings are essentially so you can consider a heavier frame.  

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BehindTheBikesheds [2042 posts] 5 months ago
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2009 Spesh sirrus carbon ltd,  I've just finished buyng all the bits, frameset was NOS from bike shop in Bath.

Has mudguard AND rack mounts and space for 38mm tyres underneath.

There's a NOS one on the bay of e ATM

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Simon E [3338 posts] 5 months ago
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cyclesteffer [336 posts] 5 months ago
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The Btwin 100? Isn't it exactly this? A rim braked Gravel bike? There's some hilarious videos on YouTube of what it can do

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Johnnystorm [111 posts] 5 months ago
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Something up with your discs?

My commuter has BB7s and according to strava have been on the same cables/pads/discs for at least 7500 miles.

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BehindTheBikesheds [2042 posts] 5 months ago
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Johnnystorm wrote:

Something up with your discs? My commuter has BB7s and according to strava have been on the same cables/pads/discs for at least 7500 miles.

 

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IanEdward [199 posts] 5 months ago
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Quote:

Something up with your discs?

More like something up with my ears, think I've just got a much lower tolerance to squeeky brakes than everyone else. Rim brakes = silent and all the power I've ever needed, I don't even seem to go through pads or rims all that fast.

Obviously just not riding far enough or fast enough!

SimonE, thanks I contributed to that thread but Kil0ran wasn't thinking big enough, he only wanted 28mm tyres!

Quote:

BTWin 100

Ha, that's genius, would never have found that. Strip the components and the scaffold tube fork, replace with a carbon/alloy Radon fork for £80 and build up with your groupset of choice, could be a neat wee bike for less than a thousand...

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kil0ran [924 posts] 5 months ago
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IanEdward wrote:
Quote:

Something up with your discs?

More like something up with my ears, think I've just got a much lower tolerance to squeeky brakes than everyone else. Rim brakes = silent and all the power I've ever needed, I don't even seem to go through pads or rims all that fast.

Obviously just not riding far enough or fast enough!

SimonE, thanks I contributed to that thread but Kil0ran wasn't thinking big enough, he only wanted 28mm tyres!

Quote:

BTWin 100

Ha, that's genius, would never have found that. Strip the components and the scaffold tube fork, replace with a carbon/alloy Radon fork for £80 and build up with your groupset of choice, could be a neat wee bike for less than a thousand...

Or spend a little more for the Triban 500. Lovely matt red paintjob (or black if you prefer) and carbon fork. Don't think you'll get really big tyres  plus guards in there though - clearance is a little tight around the chainstay bridge. Decathlon guy I spoke to said 28s + guards were a no go but I'm yet to be convinced.

I think your best bet is to hit eBay/Gumtree for something with cantis if you want 32mm+

e.g. Salsa La Cruz Ti

https://salsacycles.com/bikes/archive/la_cruz_ti_2011

 

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Ratfink [200 posts] 5 months ago
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Not for sale in the UK  but they do ship internationally.

http://www.rodbikes.com/images/gallery/gallery.php?id=340

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Boatsie [230 posts] 5 months ago
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That's the bike I like.
GT with a 9 speed Sora. (Has discs though)
Never ridden 1. Ridden GT before and loved them.
If girlfriend comes to stay we'll be shopping to suit her and that beast pleases my eye plus having recently taken fondness to bibi car, part of the half yearly running cost of the car transformed into a bike budget which included a box of 9 speed close ratio casettes. Don't know if the GT heavy, I bet it's lighter than my build though and I think they look awesome especially when someone else cleaning all those triangles.
Lol

www.gtbicycles.com/aus_en/2018/bikes/pavement/grade-sora

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mrml [35 posts] 5 months ago
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Surly Cross Check, if you're not too worried about weight.  

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IanEdward [199 posts] 5 months ago
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Hmm, now I'm confused! Love the idea of the Cross Check, and it's half the price of the other options. Shame they're not doing the dream tangerine colour any more!

But if I'm looking at bikes that weight I'm probably straying back into touring territory again...

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Johnny5 [10 posts] 5 months ago
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Seven RedSky. Available in steel and titanium models. Clearance for 32c and fenders.

 

http://www.sevencycles.com/blog/redsky-the-ultimate-in-versatile-performance/

 

https://www.sevencycles.com/bikes/bike-detail.php?model=redsky

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IanEdward [199 posts] 5 months ago
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Oh man, that Redsky is perfect! Just a shame it costs twice what the Van Nicholas Amazon, and for the money you don't even get a fork... Lovely though.

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BehindTheBikesheds [2042 posts] 5 months ago
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That Seven Redsky they could have designed the fork/frame to take an even bigger tyre, shame really as if it could have got a 32/33mm under a mudguard it would have being an even more attractive prospect and a wider audience.

You can see that the brake pads are not at their lowest point so around another 5mm in drop, the difference between getting a 32mm tyre plus guard and not.

Pro teams have already been fitting 30mm tyres under rim brakes for the cobbled classics with room to spare for years on CF frames so whilst I get that the focus is now mainly on disc brakes there is still a market for rim braked frames/bikes that can take a wider tyre, particularly for audax, touring, gravel and commuting/general liesure riding.

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kil0ran [924 posts] 5 months ago
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I think rim brakes will have a renaissance, like vinyl. Most people are better served by disc brakes but all that does is increase the appeal of rims to people who want to be different. See also custom steel and lugged frames. I could have easily bought a more flashy bike off the peg for what I've paid for the Layhams but where's the fun in that? Or the soul? Then again, I still dabble in film photography so I'm probably a bit weird...

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IanEdward [199 posts] 5 months ago
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Yeah I've been banging the drum for rim brakes for a while, and also hope there will be a bit of a comeback. I'm guessing their ubiquity at the moment is partly 'shiny new' and part 'easier for the frame manufacturers'.

I struggle to believe I'm the only person for whom the drawbacks outweight the benefits. I heard two people on this morning's commute whose brakes sounded AWFUL, can't believe that's worth the little bit of extra power, makes me wonder if lots of people have only ever experienced cheap rim brakes with cheap pads, and are therefore blown away by brakes that actually work. 

Still, there's still options out there, although the Seven is taking the p155 a little at £2,550 for a Steel frame only with no fork. Think the Van Nicholas is the cake and eat it option (light but versatile) and the Cross Check is the pragmatic solution (cheap, heavy, but versatile). I suppose the third option is just bodging a six speed cassette in the back of my current singlespeed, would probably end up lighter than a Cross Check build but with slightly less range on the gearing.

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kil0ran [924 posts] 5 months ago
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I've one rim braked bike and one with discs. Both can easily chuck me over the handlebars if I squeeze hard enough and I don't really notice any difference in effort. Modern dual pivot calipers are awesome, and I'd imagine the direct mount versions will be slightly better. If you do a lot of riding in crap weather and you value your rims then by all means go for discs and get a really nice wheelset but for most use cases rims do the job. If you've got the clearance long drop dual pivots can even work for light, dry gravel

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IanEdward [199 posts] 5 months ago
1 like
Quote:

If you do a lot of riding in crap weather

At the risk of derailling the thread and turning it into my stock disc brake rant, it's actually in crap weather that I value my rim brakes the most!

I've been through 2 bikes and 3 different sets of brakes, all of which sounded god-awful in the wet, which just put me off riding those bikes in crap conditions. Whether that was specific to me or not I don't know, but I've decided I've now spent too much time and money trying to find a reasonably quiet set of disc brakes, and have given up.

People keep telling me it's a set up thing, or a pad choice thing, or a contamination thing, or a bedding in thing, but my rim brakes suffer from none of this, all for the cost of a £20 set of decent pads. The local shops have struggled to sort it, and one mechanic even admitted he spent 50% of his time now trying to help people silence noisy disc brakes.

I would LOVE to be converted to discs, but until someone can promise me a set that doesn't seem to require a degree in Voodoo Witch-doctory to run quiet in all conditions, I'll stick with rim brakes.  

Anyway, rant over, I like rim brakes, frames still exist for them, happy days : )

 

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ClubSmed [692 posts] 5 months ago
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IanEdward wrote:
Quote:

If you do a lot of riding in crap weather

At the risk of derailling the thread and turning it into my stock disc brake rant, it's actually in crap weather that I value my rim brakes the most!

I've been through 2 bikes and 3 different sets of brakes, all of which sounded god-awful in the wet, which just put me off riding those bikes in crap conditions. Whether that was specific to me or not I don't know, but I've decided I've now spent too much time and money trying to find a reasonably quiet set of disc brakes, and have given up.

People keep telling me it's a set up thing, or a pad choice thing, or a contamination thing, or a bedding in thing, but my rim brakes suffer from none of this, all for the cost of a £20 set of decent pads. The local shops have struggled to sort it, and one mechanic even admitted he spent 50% of his time now trying to help people silence noisy disc brakes.

I would LOVE to be converted to discs, but until someone can promise me a set that doesn't seem to require a degree in Voodoo Witch-doctory to run quiet in all conditions, I'll stick with rim brakes.  

Anyway, rant over, I like rim brakes, frames still exist for them, happy days : )

 

I used to hate the noise my disc brakes make in the wet but with a change in perception I have learnt to love it.

As a general rule, the point where I am applying my brakes in such a way to make a noise is the same point that I would be using my bell to alert others to my presence. The majority of these occasions on my commute it involves a descent that in wet conditions results in me not wanting to move my hands away from the brake levers. As the brakes make such a loud noise in the wet it means that I do not have to use my bell so I am able to keep my hands over my brake levers and feel a lot safer as a result.

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Marin [3 posts] 5 months ago
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Heretic CL2: 

//fstatic1.mtb-news.de/v3/22/2204/2204302-kbtw42v3seos-cl2_11-large.jpg)

//fstatic1.mtb-news.de/v3/22/2202/2202555-sfv1gxvvzhzg-20171004_105138_01-large.jpg)

smiley

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IanEdward [199 posts] 5 months ago
2 likes

Boom! Right there, my perfect bike

//fstatic0.mtb-news.de/f3/20/2001/2001612-bpgrgopu9bv1-whiteout-large.jpg)

I daren't ask the cost, if you have to ask you can't afford it!

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Boatsie [230 posts] 5 months ago
1 like

You making me drool. That'd be as tough as. Plus 1 like

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Boatsie [230 posts] 5 months ago
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Liking cantilevers due to clearance.
Not sure if dual pivot road calipers will fit tyre but will mock fit into another bike soon to establish possibly.
Front guards not really required on this bike as frame copes with our weather.

Was thinking of bracing brake cable loop onto fork and pulling pulley with handlebar cable to double the throw.  Seems messy upfront.   Might neat fit on rear using naked cable along toptube as location of pulley system and rear of toptube as rear brake cable attachment point.

Just an idea.  Thought someone else might be able to utilize idea with similar short throw dropbar brake levers.  Could allow strong rear rim clamp and guards without expensive replacements.

I know that's on my wish list regarding a gravel bike.  2 half circular tubes with central outer attachments to accommodate 1.2 mm cable inside tube and at attachment.  1 motor car hose clamp.  Fork end unknown!

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Boatsie [230 posts] 5 months ago
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This what I meant. I guess it easier to use dual pivot brakes and hang sidewards on dry days. Lol

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Boatsie [230 posts] 5 months ago
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Luddites is a big word. No data and not pedantic.
My gravel bike problem is.. Brake levers need to pull on arms because at 90kmph down 10% current system not so good. Budget tight.
Will be sourcing bent tube and tube clamps as temporary fix. Eg. Should last years.
Current frame set was flatbar and they seem to pull more brake line than the now fitted dropbar levers.
Tried fitting the wheel into dual pivot brakes. At 38 mm the brake assembly seizes the wheel.
At 5 cm inner diameter the pulley seems large yet as cheap to organize I will try such as it has been measured and should fit without obstruction to grip or drive.
I would rather dual pivot but I don't know any and if available can wait 6 months as this isn't drilling nor altering the bicycle cable network; just clamping pulleys.
Regardless of brakes she should get up and go alright. Final spinning a 53-13 after single rear stepping from 53-19.

Hope this helps with your endeavour of rim brakes. I have perpendicular bent a steel handle bar from rolling into a street pole and nowadays I much like brakes that allow skid just in case.

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ChasP [39 posts] 5 months ago
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Boatsie wrote:

Luddites is a big word. No data and not pedantic. My gravel bike problem is.. Brake levers need to pull on arms because at 90kmph down 10% current system not so good. Budget tight. Will be sourcing bent tube and tube clamps as temporary fix. Eg. Should last years. Current frame set was flatbar and they seem to pull more brake line than the now fitted dropbar levers. Tried fitting the wheel into dual pivot brakes. At 38 mm the brake assembly seizes the wheel. At 5 cm inner diameter the pulley seems large yet as cheap to organize I will try such as it has been measured and should fit without obstruction to grip or drive. I would rather dual pivot but I don't know any and if available can wait 6 months as this isn't drilling nor altering the bicycle cable network; just clamping pulleys. Regardless of brakes she should get up and go alright. Final spinning a 53-13 after single rear stepping from 53-19. Hope this helps with your endeavour of rim brakes. I have perpendicular bent a steel handle bar from rolling into a street pole and nowadays I much like brakes that allow skid just in case.

You need mini v brakes like these http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/tektro-926al-mini-v-brake/rp-prod34580

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