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Group riding - what if the lead riders aren't riding safely?
Hi,
I'm a long time cyclist, but am a beginner at group cycling. I recently joined a cycling club, and have found my inaugural rides with the group pretty uncomfortable, primarily because the group rides in a way that I'm unusued to, and seems potentially less than optimal from a safety perspective.
- the front left rider invariably rides closer to parked cars and the kerb than I ordinarily would - some 30-50cm away, leaving very little space to avoid potholes and drain covers. If I ride further out, I break up the flow of the group.
- the group is very reluctant to take a full lane, even when to do so makes sense. The front riders will swerve left where there is space between parked cars, and lead or rear riders shout to 'single out' when there is a car waiting to pass, even when to pass would be unsafe (e.g. blind corner with solid white lines). In my last ride, this resulted in two drivers trying to pass, then having to abort half way through.
Am I being overly sensitive as a beginner, or do I have a legitimate cause for complaint? What do you suggest I do?
Thanks,
Michael
-
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36 comments
My 2c worth:
The OP said the front left leader rode too close to the kerb. If they're regularly swinging out to avoid drains etc, then I think that's not helpful for anyone's safety. Taking a moderate line seems to be the norm.
The leaders are extrememly reluctant to take a whole lane... I agree with this. Though I do little riding in town, most of it is on the equivalent of b Minor A roads or B roads, I don't think using the whole lane on either of these is very smart at all.
The point of car up and car back (in our local parlance). A s someone said, it's good for car / cyclist relations (IMHO) to show willing. In NZ a vehicle obstructing the carriageway (travelling significantly slower than the main stream of traffic) is required to move off the road at the first opportunity to let faster traffic through, so on all rides, where we are to the right of the kerb line, we single up when a car is behind to at least show willing. This does result in plenty of close passes, but to my mind it 'feels' safer than being doubled up.
Personally I don't like groups bigger than 10 or 12 as I think it's just too big for most roads (12 cyclists double file is about 150m long. Like having an artic lorry moving along the road at 15 mph. That's just rude to other road users.)
With us it's car "up" (approaching us from in front) and "back" if catching us up from behind us. It doesn't really matter as long as everyone knows.
To me, group rides go well when everyone understands the spirit of the ride. Is it a no drop introduction to group riding or a hardened race training session or somewhere in between? If everyone knows what they're getting themselves into the "rules" whatever they are, are less important.
@ beezus fufoon - err yes I appear to have mingled your anecdote with the OP, whoops.
Vote for CAR/Tractor/Bus/Lorry UP and XXX DOWN over here
I don't think people should be switching on video in the case of something happening.
Keeping the hands on the bars and focusing on the danger would be my preference.
is this too many rules:
https://700cc.org/road-etiquette/
I don't disagree with any of them, but ...
I'd say that's pretty basic knowledge from experience and what I would expect a group to do
You cannot ignore cars just because you don't like sharing road space with them. On a narrow country road "Car up!" may well be followed by a "Single out!" to allow space to pass. "Car back!" alerts the front rider to indicating if it is safe for a motorist to pass given his / her better view of the road ahead. From my point of view it is always safer to control a situation, this is not about deferring to the motorist. I would far rather they were past safely and away than behind and frustrated.
Likewise you would always call out other road users (horses, dog walkers, runners, slower cyclists) each of which requires special consideration to pass safely and courteously.
It is absolutely in the interests of safety that everyone in the group is aware of the hazards around. It is also important that anyone feels comfortable to call something if they think the group need to be alerted.
There seem to be a few ifs and ands in your 'shouldn't call out vehicles'
the call is for use when the vehicle is going by,
1 so if it is truly dangerous man at front might be able to signal to stop the vehicle
2 avoid a startle causing a rider to swerve
3 if we are all riding perfectly two by two - exactly 'if' so it's a tidy up call too
4 You can be prepared for the dive into ditch, switch on video etc etc
none of the call is for the benefit of the vehicle all for the safety of the ride.
its thinking like yours which annoys experienced riders, they don't ask you to do things without some thought
Up/Down may be traditional but they're confusing to new riders. Front and Back work better for me.
try another group! Its taken me riding with three local groups to find one that suits me, my lifestlye and riding abilitiies.
Thanks all for your input - it looks like I am perhaps not being unreasonable in terms of how I felt the group was riding. Equally, however, it appears that there is likely not much to be gained by criticising the riding style of an established group.
maybe have a quiet word with one of the leaders, then, if you can't resolve the issue to your satisfaction then leave the group
Sounds like this whole thread is a bit of a non question, you're in a group of mixed abilities and ages, some who appear not to have ridden together before, some are a bit serious and grumpy some are chatting and carefree, it's in France after the etape... meh!
As a newbie, I guess it's good that you recognise some non fluid riding styles, but from someone who rides with all sorts of groups, I find you need to recognise and adapt to the group dynamic and or be prepared to promote a particular group dymanic.
So in answer to your first post, yes you are being a bit of a sensitive snowflake
I think you've confused me with the original poster - I was just retelling a story from over 10 years back about an incident that stuck out - no real clear hierarchy or articulation of the rules, and as Jimmy Ray Will said, "no one ever takes the time to constructively tell them what they should be doing... instead there is the unvocalised forcing of will upon them" - of course I took the piss out of the old duffers!
edit - I'm one of the old duffers now, but I have learnt to not try to impose an unspoken set of rules by sheer force of will on an unsuspecting group of riders, competent or otherwise!
I've done some ride leading for corporate events and at least there they will generally defer to the ride chaperones / ride leaders even though most of the people on it are CEO-type people more used to being in charge than being told what to do.
New members coming into a regular club ride are often very unwilling to take on info or advice and will take an order as unwanted criticism. Similarly, clubs themselves are often very stuck in their ways and won't take kindly to a newcomer talling them that the practices they've evolved and used over the years are actually dangerous!
One key thing is to sort out the calls early on. I've heard any number of variations for calling out a car coming towards the group. Car up, car down, car front. Need to be careful cos a group can end up calling out all manner of random crap which at the back of the group, muffled by wind noise, other chatter, car noise etc will simply sound like AAAHH OOHH.
Ah, when you think about it, there are soooo many subtle aspects to group riding... its hilarious really.
I love Beezus Fufoons comment... its so true... When a rider is clearly doing something wrong, no one ever takes the time to constructively tell them what they should be doing... instead there is the unvocalised forcing of will upon them... happy times!
The problem I have these days is that it is hard to give any one instruction. I used to be one for giving advice, making observations etc. then I read a load of comments that made it pretty clear that people really don't want unrequested advice.
So now I keep schtum.
The older riders were not as fit so were struggling to keep up maybe?
or you might be like our club young ones. Great skills and individual turn of speed, no concept of how to ride a group, sudden speed changes and going off only to suddenly fizzle out. All of which causes danger in the group and crashes!
Love this thread of grumpy gits! Btw plenty of Castelli on show and assos on our runs.
seriously best to ask who is leading and is the group stopping for mechanicals/punctures before the ride starts, helps everyone to focus on group riding and you know who is leading!! All good
A few things here - lack of clarity about who is leading, and an assumption about what the accepted rules are - on my ride there were no actual incidents, but what was noticable was the way in which it was "expected" we would know what was expected of us, and even after the "rules" were obviously broken, still no one would actually say what those rules were and what should've been done differently!
We rarely if ever have clarity about who thinks they are leading and then the other leaders (riders) in our groups attempt to dictate this or that rule. As for the rules - this is cycling! None of the rules are really clear except a few obvious ones about not crashing. The rules are unwritten for a reason
In a sport where there about 100 rules on sock length let alone anything else you have to learn to accept the art of group riding as well as the science.
Anyway for my penny's worth the basic rules I have picked up are (sure I have missed a few!):
Don't overlap. Dont change speed/direction suddenly. Indicate and call out hazards - even when you are behind others doing the same. Dont ride exactly in line - slightly off to one side. Keep it tight and tidy. Stay relaxed especially if you touch bars. Use your back brake first when slowing on a descent. Dont go too fast dont go too slow. Dont look at your bottle cage. Don't eat in the middle of the group (well dont unwrap complicated food). Always cover you brakes unless on the front. Winter = Mudguards. Call cars from behind as 'UP' cars from the front as 'DOWN'. Ensure you are properly fitted to your bike and use your core to keep the rear wheel from waggling. Press hard down on the pedal when standing to avoid your wheel 'popping' backwards into the rider behind. Don't moan. Don't half wheel. Ride no more than 10cms back and 3 cms to one side of the rear wheel of the rider in front. Position your bike to benefit the rider behind in relation to the wind. Ride smoothly - especially doing through and off. Above all keep your concentration and enjoy your riding!
I love riding in a group but I am welll aware I'm s**t at it so always willing to be told summat I haven't thought of - most of my mates seemt be of the opine that I should learn to ride faster up hills!
de faster!
This being the main complaint I had! I've heard the logic of that Car Up / Car Down call as Up your arse and Down your throat.
However I always insist on Car Up (front) and Car Back (behind) as they are less open to misinterpretation. What's more I make that clear in any ride I'm leading as the last thing you want is someone in the group using Car UP to mean there is a car behind and someone else using exactly the same phrase to mean oncoming car from the front.
If everyone uses the same calls (up/down or up/back), there's no misinterpretation and it becomes second nature, the only issue is when new people ride with the group and they're used to the other set. I've found newer groups tend to use up/back whereas most established ones use up/down but I think you're right to let everyone know at the start of a ride which calls to use.
All club runs need a Club run captain. Regardless from 3 to 30 riders. someone , experienced needs to be in charge, picking the route, callling puncture proceedure and direction. Whistle is great for regular changes at the front and picking the cafe stop.
In a sport full of alphas- who shun team sports, an organised individual is necessary to wrangle the egos and opinions.
errr hang on.... There's a puncture procedure.... and..... you have a whistle!
one ride I did I was treated like a pariah at the coffee break - the younger riders all had good handling skills, would go through and off briskly, and happily ride two abreast and chat. The "old skool" riders really didn't appreciate it one bit - they would sit at the front for 5 minutes and slow the whole group down - looking back I guess they were less used to crashes and possibly afraid of breaking a hip or something!
Crashes on the club run are to be avoided. If as you say the youngsters had great skills - why did they crash more ? I'm voting for the elders.
If the youngsters want a faster crashier club run - go off by yourselves. The NHS is quite good these days.
This was not a club run, just a one off group ride to see a tour de france time trial stage from a hotel in France. The older, more experienced members of the group seemed overcautious to me.
Obviously it was not a case of wanting a crashier ride, but of having crashed in general - the younger members of the group were far more relaxed, more confident riders, and the older members tried to take charge and impose their own overcautious approach on the entire group.
So was it your club or not ? And were the older riders newly hatched Mamils or veteran cyclists ? As far as I know - crashing hasn't been invented recently and the older riders are probably just wiser.
If the pace was too slow - why didn't you just tell them you wanted to get there a bit quicker and go up the road ?
And was overcautious just 'riding a bit slower than you like' ?
More questions than answers I'm afraid !
no not a club, we'd all done the etape a few days earlier and there were riders of mixed abilities and experience in the group - I saw myself as one of the weaker riders. There were two basic social groups together, one of riders in their late 20's to early thirties, and another of guys around mid to late 40's, all fairly competent riders.
There seemed to be two issues - firstly, the younger guys seemed to go through and off a lot quicker, doing one minute turns at the front, and maybe 2-3kmh faster. The older group members stayed at the front for 5 minutes, and obviously the pace slowed a little, but there was no real issue with anyone leaping off the front or getting dropped.
The other issue seemed to be with chatting and taking a more relaxed, fun approach, which seemed to be quite frowned upon by the more serious older group. I guess they thought that we were challenging their "authority" a little.
Perhaps another small factor was a bit of a north-south divide, while not a cause in itself, it did seem to add a little to the idea that the younger group of "southerners" weren't taking it seriously enough.
Some of the younger members did seem to "fall into line" - trying to associate themselves with the serious riders. I myself was occasionally riding two abreast and chatting - it was a 55km ride each way and I was on holiday, and being used to riding a certain way in London traffic, I seemed to bear the brunt of their displeasure.
We were on French country roads, and while there were some heavy freight coming past at speed, there was also no kerb, so we were actually riding out of the lane and technically off the road over the kerb line.
Great thread. Welcome to the real British Cycling. The last thing you'll see, is that Castelli logo soaring away in front of you...
It will take more than a couple of outings to adapt your riding to the group style. Especially if you are unused to riding in close proximity with other cyclists. It takes a fair bit of trust in the rider in front to sit 4 inches off their back wheel at 20 mph plus. Likewise the niceties of taking a turn on the front, not overlapping wheels, picking up the calls and signals that are vital to group communication. But it's another set of skills that are fun to learn.
If the club has been around for some time it might be fair to assume that the ride leaders are actually reasonably competent. Ultimately though, if you are still not comfortable and depending on how the club is set up, you could suggest breaking into smaller groups or join a steadier group.
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