Hunt launches Carbon Aerodynamicist rim brake wheel range

Compact Corned Beef wrote:

I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but if the design/dimensions are unique to Hunt then surely it's their product?

Otherwise that requires any 'real' brand to do all their own manufacturing, which is a bit of an odd stance. I'm sure no-one would say that an iPhone is *actually* a Foxconn phone...

 

I think the matter here is design rather than manufacturing. Did Hunt have meaningful input in the design of these wheels? If so, they can rightly be called Hunt wheels. However, if they just ordered from the catalogue and asked that their branding be put on the product, less so…

chocim wrote:

I think the matter here is design rather than manufacturing. Did Hunt have meaningful input in the design of these wheels? If so, they can rightly be called Hunt wheels. However, if they just ordered from the catalogue and asked that their branding be put on the product, less so…

Afaik, the wheels and rims sold by Hunt are identical to models on offer with Farsports.  They sell them with a tidy markup + their sticker on them and I have no problem with that -own one set-, I see it as the premium paid for a no-hassle delivery where all costs are known beforehand and -hopefully- decent warranty.  

What I personally find a bit rich is the business model where the buyer orders, then has to wait a couple of months for delivery, hence prefinances the entire purchase by Hunt and makes their business essentially risk-free.  And of course they don't exactly go into painstaking detail about their business model but fair enough.  I do think everyone should check out the youtube video mentioned.  Sure, it's over the top but it's also instructive.

Would I order with Hunt again?  Well, after Brexit -finally- happens and the UK becomes a third country probably not.  If I have to deal with customs formalities anyway then I might as well order from China (where the helpful lads who sell stuff will cheerfully undervalue whatever is shipped so you don't pay too much duties and VAT).  Same with warranty issues:  if it's outside the EU then it might as well be on Mars (I'm not exactly counting on Boris beeing honest about the comprehesive trade agreement before transition ends).

What Farsports do better is offering a wide choice in hubs/spokes for their wheelsets, I'm not complaining about the Novatecs/pilars from Hunt but would like more options.

Compact Corned Beef wrote:

I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but if the design/dimensions are unique to Hunt then surely it's their product?

Otherwise that requires any 'real' brand to do all their own manufacturing, which is a bit of an odd stance. I'm sure no-one would say that an iPhone is *actually* a Foxconn phone...

 

The problem is not that hunt order from the catalogue. That's fine by me and completely standard practice. Planet X do exactly that, they are very open that they go to Taiwanese trade shows etc and order straight from factories to maximise cost savings.

Where the problem is is when a company starts making out that they're shoppy dee wop aero wizards and misrepresent what it is they actually do. Because in my view that is where the line is blurred between 'marketing' and 'deception.'

If you want a 'hunt wheel' for a decent cost, go to a talented wheelbuilder with a good supply of carbon rims and tell them you want a DT hub laced with Sapim spokes. You'll still be covered by his/her warranty and more of your dough goes towards the wheel, not the 'brand management.'

roadmanshaq wrote:

Here's the bottom line old chap. I'm not going to stop sharing the facts of the matter; that these are cheapo el Farsports wheels with a sticker on them. You can keep whingeing about that or you can move on.

Not whingeing about that, though it may suit you to think that way as you can continue to patronise me and not have to think about what I'm actually saying/asking. No-one minds facts - real ones, that is.

Some questions for you:

1. How much do the Farsports wheels cost in GBP? (including all taxes, delivery costs etc)

2. Are they exactly the same?

3. What happens with Farsports if I have a warranty problem that requires repair or replacement?

4. If these perform similarly to the big wheel brands then could the same accusations not be levelled at them too? And let's be honest, Zipp have had a fair number of issues. Or is it OK to charge a hefty premium if your name is Zipp, Enve or DT Swiss? And what about wheelbuilders like Strada selling £1300 55mm carbon wheels?

Simon E wrote:

, that is.

Some questions for you:

1. How much do the Farsports wheels cost in GBP? (including all taxes, delivery costs etc)

Not so much that they can't pay someone to come on Road.cc as a 'brand manager' and get plum spots in the likes of Bikeradar etc.

Quote:

2. Are they exactly the same?

Yes.

Quote:

3. What happens with Farsports if I have a warranty problem that requires repair or replacement?

You don't understand. These are Farsports wheels. Farsports are the wholesaler. Hunt are the retailer.

/quote wrote:

4. If these perform similarly to the big wheel brands then could the same accusations not be levelled at them too?

You're starting to get it!

At least Planet X etc don't gussy up a load of hokum about shoppy dee whoop wop aero engineering or whatever.

roadmanshaq wrote:

Simon E wrote:

1. How much do the Farsports wheels cost in GBP? (including all taxes, delivery costs etc)

Not so much that they can't pay someone to come on Road.cc as a 'brand manager' and get plum spots in the likes of Bikeradar etc.

You didn't answer the question.

roadmanshaq wrote:

Quote:

2. Are they exactly the same?

Yes.

Someone from Hunt has contradicted you on this and other points. I think you're telling porkies.

roadmanshaq wrote:

Quote:

3. What happens with Farsports if I have a warranty problem that requires repair or replacement?

You don't understand. These are Farsports wheels. Farsports are the wholesaler. Hunt are the retailer.

Once again, it seems you're wrong (or evading the question). I was asking about claiming from Farsports from their own wheels.

roadmanshaq wrote:

Quote:

4. If these perform similarly to the big wheel brands then could the same accusations not be levelled at them too?

You're starting to get it! At least Planet X etc don't gussy up a load of hokum about shoppy dee whoop wop aero engineering or whatever.

I didn't mention Planet X. Why don't you make similarly critical posts about the other expensive brands? Is it because your posts are a load of bollocks?

Simon E wrote:

Why don't you make similarly critical posts about the other expensive brands? Is it because your posts are a load of bollocks?

 

Because this PR puff piece is about Hunt and their catalogue Chinese wheels you donkey. They're catalogue wheels from a Chinese wholesaler posted to the UK and distributed with a markup (always a hoot when a company tries to make out that their not defrauding the revenue and providing a warranty, and promising that they comply with the relevant standard, is some kind of added value). The whole 'aero engineering' carry on is made up to justify the silly prices. My local builder can do you a set of (branded) carbon rimmed, Sapim spokes, hope hubbed wheels for £900, all under warranty and built in the shop down the road. Actually scratch that, if they used unbranded Taiwanese rims which are they exact same it's be cheaper still. This is a shell game and if you're daft enough to fall for it that's your problem.

The actual cost of these shoopy dee woop wop hunt aero wheels should be more in the order of £500 and that's pushing it. See https://www.wiggle.co.uk/prime-rr-50-v2-carbon-clincher-wheelset?sku=100... which is identical in specification. Non branded hub, chinese carbon rim, pillar spokes. Spitting image.  There's a 90g purported weight difference which is precisely one mouthful of water. In fact I'd be willing to bet that one's accounting for 4 wraps of rim tape /valves and the other's not.

roadmanshaq wrote:

Simon E wrote:

Why don't you make similarly critical posts about the other expensive brands? Is it because your posts are a load of bollocks?

 

Because this PR puff piece is about Hunt and their catalogue Chinese wheels

So, your saying that Hunt are lying when they clearly state that their wheels from Taiwan and not China?

roadmanshaq wrote:

Simon E wrote:

Why don't you make similarly critical posts about the other expensive brands? Is it because your posts are a load of bollocks?

 

Because this PR puff piece is about Hunt and their catalogue Chinese wheels you donkey. They're catalogue wheels from a Chinese wholesaler posted to the UK and distributed with a markup (always a hoot when a company tries to make out that their not defrauding the revenue and providing a warranty, and promising that they comply with the relevant standard, is some kind of added value). The whole 'aero engineering' carry on is made up to justify the silly prices. My local builder can do you a set of (branded) carbon rimmed, Sapim spokes, hope hubbed wheels for £900, all under warranty and built in the shop down the road. Actually scratch that, if they used unbranded Taiwanese rims which are they exact same it's be cheaper still. This is a shell game and if you're daft enough to fall for it that's your problem.

 

Which local wheel builder would this be?

abusivemonk wrote:

roadmanshaq wrote:

Simon E wrote:

Why don't you make similarly critical posts about the other expensive brands? Is it because your posts are a load of bollocks?

 

Because this PR puff piece is about Hunt and their catalogue Chinese wheels you donkey. They're catalogue wheels from a Chinese wholesaler posted to the UK and distributed with a markup (always a hoot when a company tries to make out that their not defrauding the revenue and providing a warranty, and promising that they comply with the relevant standard, is some kind of added value). The whole 'aero engineering' carry on is made up to justify the silly prices. My local builder can do you a set of (branded) carbon rimmed, Sapim spokes, hope hubbed wheels for £900, all under warranty and built in the shop down the road. Actually scratch that, if they used unbranded Taiwanese rims which are they exact same it's be cheaper still. This is a shell game and if you're daft enough to fall for it that's your problem.

Which local wheel builder would this be?

I'm not doxing myself but they only included £100 for labour and shop overhead in their quote so you'd get a comparable quote from any other UK independent outfit. Or you could see Strada wheels who'll do you a DT hubbed, DT spoked, 55mm carbon rimmed build for £1320, made by hand in the UK. https://www.stradawheels.co.uk/product/scope-r5/

Wheelsmith will do you a pair for about a grand. http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/product-page/aero-38-50-60

roadmanshaq wrote:

Simon E wrote:

Why don't you make similarly critical posts about the other expensive brands? Is it because your posts are a load of bollocks?

 

Because this PR puff piece is about Hunt and their catalogue Chinese wheels you donkey. They're catalogue wheels from a Chinese wholesaler posted to the UK and distributed with a markup (always a hoot when a company tries to make out that their not defrauding the revenue and providing a warranty, and promising that they comply with the relevant standard, is some kind of added value). The whole 'aero engineering' carry on is made up to justify the silly prices. My local builder can do you a set of (branded) carbon rimmed, Sapim spokes, hope hubbed wheels for £900, all under warranty and built in the shop down the road. Actually scratch that, if they used unbranded Taiwanese rims which are they exact same it's be cheaper still. This is a shell game and if you're daft enough to fall for it that's your problem.

 

The actual cost of these shoopy dee woop wop hunt aero wheels should be more in the order of £500 and that's pushing it. See https://www.wiggle.co.uk/prime-rr-50-v2-carbon-clincher-wheelset?sku=100... which is identical in specification. Non branded hub, chinese carbon rim, pillar spokes. Spitting image.  There's a 90g purported weight difference which is precisely one mouthful of water. In fact I'd be willing to bet that one's accounting for 4 wraps of rim tape /valves and the other's not.

I have owned a fair number of off the peg wheels in the past, but you simply cannot beat decent well specced custom built from a good wheel builder. Paul Hewitt in Leyland builds all of my wheels, and they are awesome. Light, fast, bombproof. Many pre built wheels do look good, but the compromises are usually build quality, weight, over complex spoke and nipples design, and spares availability. Try and get Mavic spares for any wheel over five years old. 

Rapha Nadal wrote:

I'd like to have some of these wheel but fear that they're just too wide to fit an older frame (Tarmac SL4 in this case).  Which is a shame.

I think you're right unfortunately. A shame as they talk about catering for riders who don't want to update their frame but then go ahead and make wheels too wide for older frames.

I've got an older Supersix HM so I feel your pain, I daren't buy new wheels for it as I doubt any modern ones will fit.  25mm GP4s are a dream for a lot of us.

I know I should just change the frame but it rides beautifully and writing off a frame worth thousands over 3 years because of changing wheel fashions seems a shame.

Rapha Nadal wrote:

I'd like to have some of these wheel but fear that they're just too wide to fit an older frame (Tarmac SL4 in this case).  Which is a shame.

Most of the width is below the brake track. I've fitted a set of 19mm wide internal Vision Metron 40 SL wheels into my 2000 Brian Rourke frame, they fit fine. You might be limited to 23/25mm tyres by the brakes, but they're so much wider and cushier on a wide rim that it's no big problem.

Terence the Tractor wrote:

Does anyone know what the industry standard "box section rim" Mavic calc WAD value is?

Legend has it that youre only saving c. 5w between that and a 50mm rim; so to see a spread of 5w between top end rims is surprising. Does that mean DT Swiss rims are no faster than box sections? Or are Hunts twise as good? Or is technology just moving too fast for rumour and hearsay to keep up?

 

Im asking as a time trialist with a 10 year old rim brake bike

just google hambini aero wheels and click his blog post on wheels, scroll down to the two graphs

check12 wrote:

just google hambini aero wheels and click his blog post on wheels, scroll down to the two graphs

Hambini somewhat lost me when they began criticising Aerocoach's lack of aerodynamic comprehension. 

Thanks for the figures though; it roughly alignes with the mid-range of what I was finding last night and explains some of the variation. 

Terence the Tractor wrote:

check12 wrote:

just google hambini aero wheels and click his blog post on wheels, scroll down to the two graphs

 

Hambini somewhat lost me when they began criticising Aerocoach's lack of aerodynamic comprehension. 

 

Thanks for the figures though; it roughly alignes with the mid-range of what I was finding last night and explains some of the variation. 

hambini is hambini but I don’t think his aerodynamic expertise can be called into question, glad the info helped 

check12 wrote:

hambini is hambini but I don’t think his aerodynamic expertise can be called into question, glad the info helped 

He questions everyone else's results so why not?

It may be sensible not take any one set of results at face value; but equally I'd not accuse brands of lying simply because their wheel performs well using their own testing methodology.

In the end it's an awful lot of money for a small number of watts saved at race speeds (and even fewer at recreational riding pace).

Mungecrundle wrote:

I'm sure they know their market, but it strikes me that they may well be launching a new wheelset into what is rapidly becoming a diminishing niche sector at a time when many of their competitors are discounting end of line rim brake models to concentrate on the growing demand for premium disc braked wheelsets.

Hi Mungecrundle, thanks ever so much for your feedback. 

Whilst it's clear to all to see the direction things are heading (as well as being clear to not all but most, the benefits of running discs), we totally agree with you that there will most likely be a place for rim brake wheels & bikes for some time yet.

For example, a couple of guys in the office here are (seriously) obsessive time trialists, with £10k+ bikes that might only see a few hundred KMs a year. We know riders of these bikes don't upgrade too frequently because, simply put, they don't need to. So, we don't think they should be disadvantaged because of this. Similarly, plenty of guys out there who have invested in custom or expensive titanium rim brake frames over the past 10 years aren't simply going to want to bin them now that discs have come to the fore. It's their choice to continue to use that frame and we're humbled by the fact these riders may choose us for their next wheel replacement as we've worked so very hard on the Aerodynamicist range.

Naturally, in terms of our engineering focus and where we're moving forwards, disc brake is absolutely going to continue taking a greater slice of that pie, but we know plenty of guys with plenty of genuine reasons for running rim brake, and we wanna help those riders too!

Thanks again for everyone's feedback here (well, most of it), it only helps us make better wheels for you.

Cheers, Ollie (Brand Manager @ HUNT)

roadmanshaq wrote:

This video tells you everything you need to know about Hunt.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bb7eCgLbLI

 

The wheels are fine but you're paying over the odds for big, big markups.  Seems bizarre to me that wheels in this price bracket aren't Sapim though... 

Quite funny, and spot on for most companies that are just starting out, or indeed for many lower end products whether cycling not.

Indeed, it's pretty clear that Hunt started the same way, and they have been fairly open about this too.

But rather than educating/sniping/trolling, if it really is as simple as that video, with profits that big, why don't you do it?!

Also, no mention in video of import duties, VAT or any other form of tax.

In any case, things get interesting when those companies start trying to come up with their own designs, instead of badging up other peoples stuff, which is where Hunt are.

And now I'll wait to be called out as one of the 'shouty bike forum aspergers suffering sheep' the guy mentions in his second video.

joules1975 wrote:

But rather than educating/sniping/trolling, if it really is as simple as that video, with profits that big, why don't you do it?!

How do you know I'm not? All welcome to buy my Roadman Farsports carbon rimmed, novatec-hubbed wheels for just £900 a pair. www.roadmanwheels.cc will be live soon.