Chris Froome has waded into the disc brake debate, saying in an interview with La Gazzetta dello Sport that he thinks “having different braking systems in the peloton would be more dangerous.”
The double Tour de France winner also reveals he hasn’t actually tried disc brakes on a road bike yet.
“I’ve tried them on a mountain bike, but not on a road bike,” he says.
That he hasn’t tried disc brakes on a road bike is slightly puzzling because he could, if he wanted, try disc brakes on a road bike. Team Sky sponsors Pinarello and Shimano both provide the equipment, and last year we even see Bernhard Eisel testing the Pinarello Dogma F8 Disc with Shimano hydraulic disc brakes in some races.
– Team Sky races with disc brakes for the first time
Anyone who has ridden disc brakes on a mountain and road bike will know that hydraulic disc brakes on a mountain bike are very different in terms of performance to a road bike setup. The systems might be essentially the same, but the power and braking modulation at the lever is very different.
The UCI has extended a short trial it ran last year, when it allowed teams to use disc-equipped road bikes in select races, for the entire 2016 season. That means any pro can ride disc brakes in any race they like. But it’s unlikely we’ll be seeing Chris Froome rock up to the start of the Tour de France on a disc road bike.
Undoubtedly Chris Froome has bigger concerns on his mind about a sport that is facing one of the biggest technological changes in recent years. You know, getting into peak physical condition to win the Tour de France for a third time.
It’s clear safety is the biggest issue concerning the professionals that have been allowed to publicly express an opinion.
“But it’s a safety issue, I’d say either everyone uses them, or no-one does,” says Froome.
That’s a line we’ve heard before. Either the entire peloton switches wholesale over to disc brakes, or the difference in braking power from those not on disc brakes could lead to more crashes. We’re skeptical that would ever be the case, based on personal riding experience with disc brakes. And there’s already a difference in braking power depending on the carbon rim and brake block combination.
– Everything you need to know about disc brakes
It’s clear that the pros are going to need some persuasion to adopt disc brakes, but if they’re not willing to make the switch, it’s difficult to see how disc brakes will become universally supported. Pros are concerned with going faster, not stopping more quickly.
Other more recent technological developments like carbon fibre frames and aerodynamic products have always offered the pro racer more performance, but disc brakes, which are currently heavier and raise safety concerns amongst the pro ranks, could face a bigger hurdle to gaining widespread adoption in the peloton.
– Are disc brakes necessary on professional race bikes? The road.cc readership has its say
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45 thoughts on “Chris Froome talks safety concerns of disc brakes in the pro peloton”
It’s weird. As an amateur I
It’s weird. As an amateur I change bikes regularly. Sometimes a flat bar with hydraulics, today a CX with cable discs, last week a road bike with rim brakes. Some are SRAM, some are Shimano. Today I had ice tyres on.
And yet, as an amateur, within moments of settling on a bike I remember how it works. Hell, even when I ride something new it takes me only a few moments to get used to it.
You’d think, given how this may well affect their employment, that a few minutes round the back to see how it all works might be an idea before giving a statement.
bendertherobot wrote:
But as an amateur you won’t be riding in very close proximity to 200 other riders.
I’ve got bikes with dual pivots, cantis, cable discs and v brakes and can ride them all fine. But one winter ride I went out with the club on a wet ride on my canti equipped cross bike and almost crashed into other riders who slammed their brakes on to avoid something. My cantis were much less effective than the discs and dual pivots around me. I ended up having to leave extra room, which I wouldn’t be happy doing in a race situation.
To be fair, I am not sure how much difference there is between dual pivots and discs. On the other hand, if there isn’t that much difference in braking performance, and if discs are heavier, then why would the pros bother with them?
Chris James wrote:
Indeed, but these guys are amazing. Huge skills. Yet we’re seeing statements that they are really worried that they can’t adapt to something that is actually fairly adaptable. And, similarly to Millar, without even trying it out.
Peleton crashes are fairly frequent now. This adds to the mix. An effect may be to string out the peleton a little and that’s not great. But I think that they’ll figure it out very quickly. The truth is that in the peleton, given the tiny margins, it won’t make much of a difference. On a wet descent it might.
Chris James wrote:
In which case you would expect those pros not using discs would very quickly be having full and frank conversations with their bike sponsors.
mbrads72 wrote:
In which case you would expect those pros not using discs would very quickly be having full and frank conversations with their bike sponsors.— Chris James
Perhaps, although the pros forced to lug another 0.5kg of disc brake up an alpine climb might also have something to say. Or the sprinters giving away watts to their oposition who are running direct mount brakes.
I guess there are pluses and minuses to all braking systems.
Chris James wrote:
We’re well into the realm of marginal gains in much (all?) of the technological innovation on the pro tour. That doesn’t mean there aren’t huge markets for ordinary Joes emulating the pros, so there’s big money for the likes of Shimano in pushing the next tech, even if it’s backed by less-than-robust evidence.
(Before I get flamed for questioning the effectiveness of disc brakes, I’m not. They’re clearly the right solution for certain applications (eg. cars, or downhill MTB’ing). I’m just taking some convincing that the peloton needs a brake upgrade from what they have now).
I personally like how he
I personally like how he thinks it is dangerous, they mentions how he has never used them. Makes his whole argument seem a bit pointless…
philhubbard wrote:
i think nuclear weapons are dangerous, but I’ve never used them. I still think my argument is fairly valid.
andyp wrote:
No it isn’t because it is a strawman and has nothing to do with the discussion of disk brakes.
juanerasmoe wrote:
but it has everything to do with the power of thought, research and independent decision-making. Just like Froome’s comments.
juanerasmoe wrote:
I can understand his concern. The whole point of introducing disks is that they are better than rim brakes. Better = stops quicker. If one rider is on rims and the other on disks then accidents may happen in a closely packed peloton. You don’t need to have used disks to see that it’s an issue.
jimhead wrote:
In the dry they’re pretty similar. In the wet, not so much, particlarly with carbon rims etc. But it requires a rider to grab a load of brake and brake sharply. In the peleton such a grab is likely to cause a big crash given their distances. On a strung out wet descent then it becomes much less of an issue. It takes no time for riders to learn what the modulation is.
jimhead wrote:
with well set up rim brakes there will be a problem in the peleton if the first person slams the brakes on, discs are not neccesary for that. Generally there are no issues because no one uses full braking power in the pack, only when approaching hair pins on the descent where the riders tend to bee spread out anyway.
philhubbard wrote:
Have you actually read what he says?
Why two discs?
Why is everyone talking about two discs or no discs? I have one on the front of one of my road bikes, paired with a caliper on the back. Works brilliantly – vast majority of the advantage with half the weight gain. I put a few thousand under it and found it spot on. Only reason I’m now riding a bike with discs both ends is because it’d cost me half my new bike’s list price to change over componentry to get front-disc rear-caliper setup! I’m guessing the only reason for this being ignored is aesthetics – certainly the mismatch doesn’t feel strange in any way when using it.
Surely in this debate, the
Surely in this debate, the main topic for discussion should be rider reaction time /delay when using any brake systems, as this is where the main causes of cashes occur ?
‘Nuclear weapons are
‘Nuclear weapons are dangerous’ is ambiguous.
Either it means they can blow things up, so is equivalent to ‘bombs are dangerous’, and is therefore not a comment particular to nuclear weapons.
Or it means that you think they are unstable in some way and dangerous to the user. This is simply an (uninformed) opinion unlikely to generate much consensus, and can be ignored.
So (nuclear) weapons are dangerous is equivalent to (disc) brakes are brakes.
Bill owns a road bike with
Bill owns a road bike with disc brakes.
Bill also owns a road bike with rim brakes.
Bill modulates his braking effort depending on which bike he is riding and the road conditions at the time.
Bill is smart.
Be more like Bill.
Sounds very much like an off
Sounds very much like an off hand comment in response to a question he got asked during the course of a magazine interview. Hardly speaking out about his concerns and safety issues. I’m surprised you’ve managed to whip up an entire article based on it!
If you’re a bit of a chubber
If you’re a bit of a chubber on an ‘endurance/sportive bike’ then I can see the point of discs – weight requires more stopping power – but for anyone sub 70kg, a good set of (and correctly set up) callipers will work just as well in all weather conditions be it alu or carbon rims. A Pro doesn’t need discs – but the manufacturers want to sell the next big thing so they’re being introduced to the peloton to showcase them and the press are all over it too with tag lines that basically read…BUY NEW STUFF OR YOUR PERFORMANCE WILL SUFFER / YOU MAY DIE HORRIBLY!!!
Bigringrider wrote:
no. no, they won’t.
Bigringrider wrote:
A pro doesn’t need discs because his/her brake shoes are replaced after every stage?
With his crash history I can
With his crash history I can see why he is concerned
I got used to them pretty
I got used to them pretty quick, I’m sure the pros are every bit as great at riding bikes as I am, maybe better!
Surely better braking
Surely better braking performance means that more riders will be able to avoid crashes in the first place? I really don’t buy Chris Froome’s argument.
Given that riders ride so close together in the peloton and having fingers on the brake levers is apparently considered a “sign of weakness”
I can’t see that having a difference in braking power is going to make a jot of difference to the number of crashes. If the person in front brakes sharply (whatever the braking technology) there is going to be a crash because just the time taken to react and get your fingers on the brakes is too long.
I think he has a point, I’ve
I think he has a point, I’ve seen it happen twice to people I know. Both of them had someone drafting who had rim brakes. They had hydraulic discs, braked, and the person behind could not stop as fast as they could. both riders ended up off the bike and in one case with a smashed up rear wheel
cyclesteffer wrote:
That’s not really proving anything unless you are comparing it to people both on rim brakes. I have had two friends run into each other while drafting when the front one braked. If you don’t communicate before braking, people will hit each other regardless of braking technology – see my point above about reaction times.
cyclesteffer wrote:
In years of riding MTBs in a variety of conditions in close proximity to riders of different abilities, frames, brake/wheel setups etc, I’ve only ever stacked it into the back of one where either one of us crashed or one or both of us was acting like a twat (buzzing their rear for example). If you’re behind a McLaren F1 in your 20 year old Mondeo you’d be a moron to expect to stop as quickly as they can so you’d be inclined to leave a gap you could stop or at least react appropriately in. Riding behind someone is the same thing. Leave the gap you need.
Same argument as was used in MTBs. Except it’s not true. MTBs are significantly better and safer for the addition of discs and if you EVER see a new MTB without discs it’s either a niche, hand built job or a BSO. I, for one, REALLY miss my disc brakes when I’m descending in the wet on my “normal” road bike. The rim brakes, as well set up as they are, are a hazard in comparison to the consistent braking I get from a decent set of hydros. I can handle a skid far more than I can handle not stopping for a junction or a corner. More safety is never a bad thing.
I’ve ridden (and owned) MTBs from fully rigid to 8″ downhill sled and they ALL benefit from disc brakes. The ability to pull a brake and have the bike stop should never be underestimated. I don’t see a single reason why anyone buying a new road bike who doesn’t need full UCI/BC/whatever approval for racing wouldn’t want discs.
atlaz wrote:
That’s fine for a cafe run with the lads, but not particularly useful advice in the pro peleton. If you find you ‘need’ to leave a massive gap then you are going to get dropped.
To be honest I’m agnositic about disc brakes in professional racing. I don’t race in the pro tour so have no idea whether Chris Froome and David Millar’s comments are reasonable or just ill informed scaremongering.
I’ve crashed into the back of disc equipped riders in cyclocross races, but then again people have crashed into me too so I am not sure the brakes were the deciding factor.
Have arguments about discs replaced the helmet debate?
Discs v Calipers
‘Perform’ in the context of disc brakes means they modulate far better than rim brakes. Until tested in a mixed use real-life situation we’ll never know whether their is an issues or not (but clearly there won’t be an issue. Someone on a disc brake equipped bike can brake in a more controlled manner than with rim brakes. Likelihood is they’ll make the peloton safer.)
I suspect in 2 years time
I suspect in 2 years time when everybody can use discs if they want in UCI WT races they will be wondering what all the fuss was about.
1) The one thing you don’t do in a tightly packed pelotons is brake hard, it causes crashes when all the bikes have the same type of brakes so adding discs doesn’t really appear to change much
2) Modern dual pivots are pretty powerful anyway
3) They can engineer hydraulic discs to give whatever modulation/power they want – they can make them exactly the same as rim brakes. More power = total braking power limited by tyre traction and nobody wants to be in that situation really do they?
I love this stuff but when I
I love this stuff but when I am finished, well I just I hate myself for reading all the way to the bottom. I really want to stop, I do, but the level of nonsense being spouted about the relative merits of two different means of impeding the progress of a bicycle …. I mean I just can’t stop, I’m addicted. Can we have a compulsory helmet laws debate again soon please.
Allegedly disks will be
Allegedly disks will be compulsory as of 2017 in the pro peloton, hence why those manufacturers that don’t have them are running around trying to get set up.
The question is now, why are people being asked by their sponsors to deny this?
Funny how some people are
Funny how some people are lambasting Froome here even though they have never had experience of racing in a professional peloton!
I imagine his opinion on the dangers of mixed brake use in the Peloton is more educated than most of ours
Will the UCI potentially
Will the UCI potentially scrapping / lowering the weight limit for bikes mean that disc equipped bikes suddenly become too heavy?
Bigfoz wrote:
No.
fukawitribe wrote:
That’s not what Inner Ring thinks
http://inrng.com/2015/12/6-8-kilo-rule-change/
Chris James wrote:
They talk about specialized bikes being used for more frequent changes – not that a disc shod bike will necessarily by ‘too heavy’ for use in professional racing, just when going uphiull for any length of time – indeed they mention that although everyone would leap onto their 5kg climbing bike going up, they’d also equally well jump on their ‘aero frame complete with deep rims and powerful disc brakes that’s a porky 7.5kg’ for the other side. Note, aero frame and deep rims – the weight isn’t just from the disc setup.
They also seem to assume for the sake of the article that the weight limit it scrapped, rather than lowered, and seem to overplay the weight penalty of discs (in particular the hydraulics), e.g. “Given bikes with disc brakes have the added weight of the discs and hydraulic systems, not to mention the need for beefed-up attachment points on the forks”. If the weight limit does disappear completely, then I imagine the difference in a climbing bike kitted out from head to toe with THM Carbones wares and an deep-rimmed, disc-braked aero bike would be very noticeable – although i’m sceptical that the increase in mass due to ‘beefed-up attachment points’ would anything more than rounding error… and 2.5kg difference ? Not likely from just the discs, especially if the rest of the bike is the same, but never say never I guess.
So, not ‘too heavy’, but used where appropriate. Fair enough summary ?
Somehow the pro’s think there
Somehow the pro’s think there will be more accidents due to the discs greater stopping power. Yet discs have better modulation, therefore less chance to a disc that locks up the wheel. Another thing is that since people are different and will have different response times to a situation. So the riders will have different bikes, different brakes, different response times and different levels of modulation to prevent an accident. The riders will always have some accidents which can not be prevented, but disc brakes should help prevent more accidents than they could possibly be the root cause.
Wow two pages of comments!
Wow two pages of comments! Road.cc has its commentators back after the website format change.
And in other news… I love that I am both more experienced at something in cycling, and more reserved in my comments, than Chris Froome by revealing I have ridden a disc-braked road bike and I have no comment about them today
The article assumes that the
The article assumes that the weight limit woud be scrapped, rather than lowered, because that is the proposal that the UCI are currently considering.
The article makes the point that with the current 6.8kg then there is no weight penalty to discs as pro bikes already need ballast not to be too heavy. From the test results I saw recently (I think on road cc) there IS currently an aerodynamic penalty, although road discs aren’t really a fully mature technology yet and there could be all kinds of technical fixes in the future.
I agree that any weight differences between bikes is an addition of extra weights of the discs, the wheels (deep section rims vs shallow ‘climbing’ rims), kamm tail style frame tubing vs lightweight frames.
You can already see quite a difference between frames designed for different purposes e.g. AX Lightness frame weight 660g vs approx 1Kg for an aero frame.
Agreed there is an aero
Agreed there is an aero penalty – surprisingly not much at low yaw angles apparently, although that seems to vary with which manufacturer/tester is asked – and that’s something which would have to be considered. Certainly I can’t see your average top sprinter on a Dutch stage being particularly keen on them. However that’s not the same as saying they’re ‘too heavy’ for the pro peleton – which is what I was replying to – and is also not something the article says.
Road Racers Hate Change
It has always been this way. Even Campagnolo’s quick release lever was slow to be adopted. Disc brakes offer a clear superiority in wet and slippery conditions. Not so much in dry conditions. The arguments are fun, but when all is said and done, road bikes of the future will be running discs rather than rim brakes. The weight and complexity will decrease, and it will open a new avenue of R&D for wheels. The next great challenge? Get rid of the damn chain! C’mon Luddites…. let me have it before you head out for an afternoon ride on your 10 speed steel Ciocc.
Chris Froome on Disc Brakes
Wow! Usually Pros are apathetic about any change which benefits their sponsors as long as performance doesn’t suffer too much, yet many pros, especially those with big money to lose, hate disc brakes! Perhaps it’s because they don’t like heavy, poorly performing, overly complicated, extremely expensive equipment shoved down their throats. What I think really needs to happen is industry needs to quit pushing these remade mountain bike solutions onto road bikes for profit and develop an appropriate solution to the problems that face ROAD BIKES on PAVEMENT. First, people tell me that discs work better on carbon wheels. I’m here to tell you my Enve’s stop better than my aluminum Rims in ALL conditions and don’t overheat if properly modulated. And my DA dual pivots are simply amazing, especially where modulation is concerned. As good or better than discs on dry pavement (and yea, I tried discs). So really, were talking about wet rim brakes, which I’ll grant don’t stop “the same” as discs. Rim brakes will still stop the rim when wet, but the modulation changes radically, extending the time and force to grip (they still have the ability to lock up the wheel), whereas discs lock up right away. And I think there is the problem for top Pro’s. Chris probably doesn’t want some domestique locking up in front of him without warning. Seems reasonable to me. These bicycle discs aren’t ABS like cars and motorcycles became after everybody locked up and crashed, they’re the full on, lock-em-up, ancient disk brake technology. You probably can’t buy all-wheel non-ABS discs anymore on cars, because manufacturers know they’re not safe. Froomey knows he can out-react that domestique now, but if the guy is sprawled in front of him it makes it hard, even if he has discs! And for that he has to pay the price of hauling an extra half pound up a hill? No way! This ain’t mountain biking!
Does anybody know if there’s
Does anybody know if there’s a time difference between changing a rim brake wheel and one with disks in race conditions? I imagine there’s also the opportunity to damage the disk in the rush to get the wheel on?
And how would neutral service work? Would there have to be a set standard between all manufacturers for size of disk?