France’s transport minister has clarified that there are no plans to make the country’s cyclists carry proof of ownership of the bicycles they are riding.
Elisabeth Borne was responding to widespread reports in the French media, which we covered here on road.cc yesterday, that a bill due to be presented at the National Assembly later this year would seek to introduce a system similar to the ‘carte grise’ scheme under which owners of motor vehicles are required to have with them a document proving ownership.
Instead she explained that plans are to require new bikes to be security-marked in an effort to combat bike theft.
She said on Twitter: “False! The # PlanVélo will gradually generalise the marking of bicycles (which already exists) when sold by a professional to fight against theft: a simple and effective device. There will obviously not be any “carte grise” and no document to carry on oneself.”
Faux ! Le #PlanVélo généralisera progressivement le marquage des vélos (qui existe déjà) lors de leur vente par un professionnel pour lutter contre le vol : dispositif simple et efficace. Il n’y aura évidemment pas la moindre « carte grise » et aucun document à porter sur soi! https://t.co/9OWy6yccwy
— Elisabeth BORNE (@Elisabeth_Borne) October 18, 2018
We are happy to put the record straight. The text of our article originally published yesterday appears below.
Cyclists in France will be required to carry a document proving that the bike they are riding belongs to them under a proposed law currently going through the country’s parliament.
Due to come into effect in 2020, the planned legislation, ostensibly aimed at combating bike theft, would also require bicycles to have a registration plate attached, reports the magazine Contexte..
The system is similar to the certificat de matriculation – known informally as the carte grise – that all owners of motor vehicles are required to have on them when driving.
Failure to produce the document on demand to a law enforcement officer results in a fine of €135, although at present it is unclear whether that would equally apply to cyclists.
The bill is due to go before the National Assembly, the lower house of France’s parliament by the end of this year.
Under the system, cyclists will have to register their bicycle with the authorities to have a number assigned to it, with the details held on a national database.
The proposed law also provides that the bike’s registration number must appear in a “legible, irremovable and tamper-proof manner, in a locatable and visible place without manipulation of the bicycle.”
It will be the owner’s responsibility to ensure the law is complied with, and no obligation will be placed on manufacturers to satisfy its requirements.
The system currently in place for motorists is somewhat of a bureaucratic headache, as explained in this article on the English-language website Connexion France, and should a similar regime be introduced for cyclists will be particularly onerous for those with multiple bicycles in the household.
Where bike registration has been introduced elsewhere in the world, the general effect has been to deter people from cycling, and in that light the proposals are at odds with a pledge by France’s prime minister, Edouard Philippe, to treble the levels of everyday cycling in the country by 2024.
> French prime minister pledges to treble levels of everyday cycling
32 thoughts on “Updated: France’s transport minister clarifies that cyclists WON’T have to carry proof of ownership of bike”
Even the efficient Swiss have
Even the efficient Swiss have abandoned their licensing for bikes. I can’t see the French getting anywhere near that.
Who’s going to bother registering their bikes ? How can you tell ?
Are the police going to stop clubs en masse ?
Are they going to demand the Maillot Jaune shows proof that he owns his bike half way up n Alp ?
It’s not going to happen.
(mind you I also said that of Brexit and Trump)
So what if I take my bike on
So what if I take my bike on holiday in France, as I’ve done on several occasions?
LastBoyScout wrote:
Don’t unless you want Toulouse it.
hawkinspeter wrote:
I wish I’d had that pun for my Pyrenean trip!
LastBoyScout wrote:
i wouldn’t worry about it. Unless of course you’re of North African origin.
It is quite likely that if
It is quite likely that if the yellow jersey was in British hands then it would definitely get pulled for not having it’s numberplate and registration. We already had Froome getting man-handled this year.
Haven’t the French got more important law and order concerns?
It’s a bureaucratic French
It’s a bureaucratic French equivalent to the physical British problem of Silly Sustrans Gates, in that both share the false idea that you can boost cycling by making it more protected, be that from cars or thieves. That doesn’t happen. You make cycling more attractive and more popular by making it easier.
People here seem to have
People here seem to have jumped straight to the conclusion that this is similar to other licence systems that have been suggested previously, but the info I’ve read suggests not, and it could actually work.
as I understand it, every bike must have the equivilant to our V5 motor vehicle certificate, and be tagged with a corresponding number. This means that police etc can identify who a bike belongs to, and you must have the matching certificate when selling the bike.
if this is rolled out such that the certificates are issued on new bikes when purchased, and purely voluntarily for existing bikes/owners (or at the point of selling on), then it will be fairly simple to implement and is unlikely to impact on take up of cycling.
so long as we don’t have to have number plates etc, then I don’t see a problem …. I mean, how many of you are already registering your bikes and frame numbers somewhere?
joules1975 wrote:
Uhhh, you DO have to have a number plate, the article says “The proposed law also provides that the bike’s registration number must appear in a “legible, irremovable and tamper-proof manner, in a locatable and visible place without manipulation of the bicycle.”, which I take to mean you won’t be allowed to hide the reg number under the bottom bracket as Le Plod would have to “manipulate” the bike to find it AND you have to have your certificate of ownership on you when you’re riding your bike or else Le Plod will fine you.
Bristol Bullet wrote:
Not sure about that. It’s not clearly written. But I would take “manipulation” to mean alteration rather than “man-handling”. In other words, it’s something like the old post coding scheme or the more modern Bike Register or Immobilized schemes, where you get a “registration number” that will somehow be indelibly fixed to your bike – which is presumably going to mean on the frame, maybe stamped (!!!) or written in ink that shows up under UV. Or something similar. But with a central registry maintained by the police or government. Of course what starts there might not end there, and it’s highly unlikely to have any effect on Cash Exchanger type places, to say nothing of ebay and used classifieds.
The French government seems
The French government seems desperate to control every aspect of citizens’ lives. It’s an appalling idea.
I also read this mainly as a
I also read this mainly as a good thing.
This is not a license plate, but a registration to prove ownership.
The Guardian talks about marking the frame with something likea QR code https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/18/france-considers-mandatory-bicycle-ownership-register-thefts
There is also more in the article about the other improvements which sound rather good.
cdamian wrote:
The Guardian article certainly puts a different and more enthusiastic spin on the idea amongst a number of pro cycling measures under consideration. My take on it is that it is a more organised scheme for linking owners to frame numbers. I chose to pay about £40 to mark and register my bike with Datatag. If it is something like that and at reasonable cost then really not a lot of hassle or risk to civil liberty.
Mungecrundle wrote:
Until they get hacked or sell your data to FB! (Sorry – I’ll get my tin foil hat…)
Bikes have to be registered
Bikes have to be registered in Japan. When you buy a new bike the shop does it for you, it cost me ¥400 which was a little less than £3. For my money I got two stickers applied to the frame and rack.
Things are a little different here to London, utility bikes invariably have kick stands and nurse locks, few bother to lock their bike to anything. Every now again the authorities collect rows of bikes from areas where parking is not allowed (usually after a few weeks of flyers put on bikes) and the registration data is used when you collect it from the pound.
I had heard lots stories about the police stopping foreigners on bikes but have yet to see it happen. Possibly because my commuting pattern doesn’t fit with the drunken gaijin stereotype.
If you buy a bike 2nd hand you should register it yourself at the local koban, police counter. It’s cheaper than having it done by the bike shop but can challenge your language skills!
Phew! Good job no one leapt
Phew! Good job no one leapt to any wild conclusions based on the initial report!
vonhelmet wrote:
You’re right – we’d better not make any conclusions at all, ever, just in case completely new information comes to light at some later date…
brooksby wrote:
I suppose it depends on how much you enjoy rowing back on your initial panic when the truth appears much more innocuous.
vonhelmet wrote:
Not at all: I’m glad that the later reports which contain statements/information not in the original report can assuage my panic a little
I see we’re not the only
I see we’re not the only country with members of parliament who are cognitively challenged…Now that it’s clarified, this looks like quite a good thing.
It’s still a shit idea that
It’s still a shit idea that relies heavily on police actually acting on bike theft, it also ignores that those buying stolen bikes often don’t give a shit if its stolen.
Bonjuur meshure, avez vous un velo pour inexpensive sieveousplate. 20 sovs, pate a sucre mate, just take the ID tag/sticker off. Here’s a fake paper I just printed off if you’re really unlucky and the police are bothered to spot you never mind stop you.
Utter crock of shit, plod have better things to be getting on with and this is yet more admin/time wasting that people do not want to have to deal with, particularly kids.
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:
It doesn’t. Read the (amended) article again. It clearly states that this is pushing back on professional traders to check the provenance of bikes passing through their hands, just as vets are required to check the provenance of dogs they treat. No police involvement needed. As for whether people care about buying stolen bikes, you seem to have a negative view of your fellow humans, so let me turn that around: Currently people buying a second hand bike (eg my lawyer son in NL) , have no means to check the legality of what they are buying, just as a shop who want to be legit, have no means of checking the legality of bikes they are buying in.
Do you know how well French
Do you know how well French police act on bike crime?
I mean, I have no idea myself, so maybe you can share something with us on that.
vonhelmet wrote:
Yes I do, in fact so should you, the evidence is already presented in the fact that there is a big bike theft problem, so police not acting on what is a big problem, I mean, you should have a bit of a think before asking a silly question when the facts are already given to you by the ‘solution’ to the problem.
Oh and can you share with us how you think bike theft is looked upon by police as a priority say compared to house burgalry, racial attacks, assault/violent crime, car theft (because registration/proof of ownership works wonderfully well there doesn’t it!), arson, robbery, selling/using illegal drugs, domestic violence etc etc?
I’ve been going to and staying in France regularly since 1990, I haven’t had too many dealings with the French police but in MY OPINION they are no more bothered about bike thefts than UK police. This will not resolve anything IMHO but put more hoops for people with bikes to jump through.
Ok, so you don’t actually
Ok, so you don’t actually have anything hard and fast on the French police approach to bike theft. That’s fine, nor do I.
You do have funny transcribed French accents, though, so I guess you win this time.
vonhelmet wrote:
yes I have concrete evidence, it’s you that is ignoring it!
Are you too narrow minded to grasp that the reason why there is so much bike theft is because French police don’t see it as a priority, hence why there is so much theft? Are you too narrow minded to grasp that compared to other crimes bike theft is massively low down on the list that it’ll get next to zero attention? Are you too narrow minded to grasp that that despite having papers of ownership, number plates and licensing, car crime is massive in France, in fact it’s the highest in Europe! Are you too narrow minded to grasp that that will not change matters for cycles and police will still not be prioritising bicycle theft.
WAKE UP ffs, this will not change shit.
EDIT to add, France has one of the highest in Europe, not ‘the’ highest car theft rates as I said previously.
You don’t have evidence, or
You don’t have evidence, or you’d post a link to it. You said yourself earlier that you have an opinion.
You’re probably right that it isn’t a priority, same as it isn’t here, but you’ve not presented any evidence of that.
Is it perhaps possible that’s
Is it perhaps possible that’s France has a problem with theft in general? Or that the police find it very difficult to prove ownership of bikes that they believe are stolen so want to do something about it? Is it also possible that you are pulling numbers out of the air because you have an ideological problem with the law?
John Smith wrote:
Absolutely. My son lives in the Netherlands, where bike theft is rife. He has lost count of the number of bikes he has had stolen, and each time he goes to one of the apparently legitimate local shop and buys another one for 50 euros, very possibly stolen, but nobody knows, because nobody keeps records. The same bikes are continually being stolen and recycled. Any attempt to keep track is bound to be a good thing. Even dogs have to be registered throughout most of Europe ffs, so why not bikes?
Love it when people make
Love it when people make sweeping generalisations about other nations. If you are talking about a bike being stolen from Gare du Nord, then of course the Paris police have bigger priorities, and rightly so. But then who in their right minds would park a nice bike outside Gare du Nord. I can assure you however that the two municipal policemen in my sleepy Provencal village on hearing of a bike theft, would declare a local emergency, and leave no grapevine unturned until the bike and culprit were found.
I know, I’ve got a 2-10k bike
I know, I’ve got a 2-10k bike that I pinched only last week, I think I’ll take it down to the local ‘professional’ bike trader (whatever that means), because everyone knows that bike theives just pootle down to somewhere where they know their onions and are more likely to spot a ‘wrong un’ than most. You must think the theives are dumb as fuck.
Hello police, I’ve found my bike on ebay/guntree/other advertising medium and I’m going to try get the bike back by pretending to be a buyer, ‘fuck off we’re busy’.
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:
The French scheme is not about helping the police to get back stolen bikes, because if your bike gets nicked, you arent going to see it again, just as if your wallet gets nicked you aint going to see it again, if your Porche gets nicked you arent going to see it again, or if your house gets burgled, you arent going to see your wife’s jewellery again, and all the police hours in the world wont help in any of these cases.
The French scheme is not about solving the near impossible task of finding stolen bikes, it is about making it harder for thieves to offload bikes, and helping buyers to get a legal bike, but yes, you’re right, its not perfect, so lets do nothing instead. (I note you have not suggested anything better, or do you really believe that reprioritising the police will help them to find a bike nicked in Nice and sold on in Marseile when nobody knows the reg number)