Gino Bartali to be posthumously awarded Israeli citizenship ahead of Giro d'Italia Big Start

@ Legs11

So make your mind up - is it an argument you've started with idiots or having a debate?

One is a heated, angry exchange of difference in opinions, the other is making a claim by providing the facts - as you say.

After 30+ years in academia, I'm sure that you would have published many papers on your expertise and the facts of the situation. I (and no doubt others) would be happy to read these to balance our opinions on the matter. 

@Legs11

You're a troll, plain and simple. You introduced the topic ("oh-oh..."), described the terms of engagement, and proceeded to 'savage' ( have you evere been gummed to death by a toothless sheep?) all respondents asking very simple questions. No attempt to engage

You're not an academic on this (or probably any topic) as all academics avoid absolute descriptors as there are always exceptions (irony not lost)

You're 'wife's pleas' are probably as imaginary as your 20 years in Israel, as is she, in all likelihood.

I'm no Einstein, but at least I do my homework. You might be interested to look the etymology of the arabic word 'falestin'. Philistines occupied the territory of palestine for millenia, hence, in the same way the English, though Anglo Saxons, are described as, well, English (of England, in case you're struggling to make the connection) the Falestines / Philistines were Falestinian / Palestinian. Hence there have been a Palestinian people in Palestine continuously for millenia.

See, that's how debate works in the real world. You make an assertion and give easily checked background to show where your assertion comes from. You've made plenty of assertions, by your own words you need to provide links to show where they come from.

You have one thing right though, the current Palestinians are the pariahs of the Arab world. And Egypt's treatment of them contavenes every piece of international law available. However, if the Israelis would like to  be upheld as a 'noble race' then it is incumbent on them to treat their co-inhabitants to the best of international law, not simply be slightly better than the worst kid on the block.

Prior to 1945 there was 'no international law'.... All 103 principal signatories to the Versailles treaty will be rather surprised to hear that, and the signatories to the Westphalia agreement (1648, the Magna Carta of international law)

Your argument that there's only someone else who could have owned the land if the Jews have stolen it from them is, well, ridiculous. Jews have never held absolute right to the land, it has been shared contentiontiously since the days of the (probably mythical characters) of Isaac and Ishmael. And any Arab or Jew will quote that to you. So much for your 20+ years of research. 

I did spend 2 years living in Israel, not far from Kissufim, and there I witnessed the most awful degradation of a people by the sovereign power that I have ever seen. The racism that was blatantly displayed in Israel was only surpassed by the tribalism / racism between the Shona, Matabele and Ndebele in Zimbabwe, and they were actively engaged in what has amounted to near genocide.

You're a troll, without even the most cursory background knowledge of what you're talking about, and tolerated simply for our amusement. You'll last just until we get bored with you.

Run along now, child.

Legs, you don't exactly come across as an unbiased commentator on this subject. 

@Legs11 - yet again no links, although you have referenced a book, but without any citations which is pretty useless.

Here I am with no particular beliefs involving Israel/Palestine and you could quite easily persuade me with a good argument and supporting evidence. However, your ranting has instead made me think that your opinion is only supported by hearsay and thus probably not true. You don't help your position with all your logical fallacies, either.

All in all, I'd give you 2/10 for trolling ability. Must try harder.

“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”

 Socrates

Yeah, you see this is what happens.  The French say never to start an argument with idiots, as they're more experienced than you. 

How true. 

Anyway, no more responses to this thread after this one.  I'm getting too old for this shit, and my wife keeps asking me, 'Why do you bother arguing with retards?'

I'll just deal with the 'points' (I'm being generous) one by one. 

'Israel's human rights record is abhorent. Fact'
Someone else who thinks that opinions are the same as facts.  Israel is of course a bastion of respect for human rights awash in a sea of squalor and iniquity.  None of the accusations levelled at Israel over the past sixty years have had a basis in anything other than a desire on the part of an already Jew-hating world, for the Jews to just 'go away and die'.   Similarly, no other country would endure the relentless attacks over sixty years and not respond.  Attacks which in a country the size of the UK, for example, would result in the death of over 6,000 people in a city the size of Newcastle-upon-Tyne.  

'And again you have provided no links to support what you are saying'
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, son, but you're not in school anymore, and this isn't how debate in the real world works.  You made assertions, namely that 'there's a huge amount of information [on settled Palestine]', and that there is a large 'blockade' of the Gaza strip since 2007.   You make the claim, you provide the proof.  That's how debate works amongst adults.   I provided legal and historical facts based on over thirty years of study and research at university level (undergraduate and postgraduate), twenty of them both living in Israel and working in human rights legislation.   

'So perhaps you should refrain from labelling everyone who criticises the Israeli authorities' actions as anti-semitic? Just because some people are against the treatment of Palestinians, doesn't mean they are pro Hamas, or anti-semitic'.
You f**ktard.  LOL!  'Treatment of Palestinians'!  Hahah!  First of all, there is no such people.  Second, the Arabs who claim that nationality are clothed, fed and watered by Israel.  Their sick are treated in Israeli hospitals.  Their electricity and gas bills are paid by Israel.  Their grievances are examined by the Israeli Supreme Court, which often rules in their favour.  By contrast, these 'Palestinians' are treated as pariahs by every single Arab country.  Denied citizenship, barred from certain occupations, treated in fact as subhuman who have no access to judicial recourse.   Those bad Israelis, eh?    Nor does anyone bother if you criticise 'the Israeli authorities'.  You criticise Israel's existence.   Any demand that (for example) the Arabs be given 'the right to return' or that there be 'a two-state solution' constitutes a de facto desire to see Israel destroyed.  

'labelling the Palestinians as 'the phoney people' is pretty fucking despicable'
Learn the difference between 'is' and 'are'.  The people exist, of course.  How could we not know that?  They've spent seven decades trying to murder every Jew in Israel.  But the people *does not* exist.  They are not 'Palestinians'.  They are Arabs.  Nothing wrong with that - a perfectly decent, noble people.  But the mere fact of using the term 'Palestinian' to people who are not indigenous to the area, is an anti-Semitic act.  

'How about some links to these verifiable facts?'
Not everyone thinks that if it's not on the web, it's not real innit?  I don't use the web for research.  You could try 'The Case for Israel' by Alan Dershowitz.  

'I'm pretty sure Legs_Eleven is a troll'
I don't really give a shit what you're 'sure of', son.  

'profile of a destabilising troll (Russian?).'
*howls with laughter'.  The Daily Express website is over there --í 

'Employing snipers against unarmed protestors'
What do you think those 'protestors' are trying to achieve, genius?   And they're not 'unarmed'.  Try to pick up a rock and wander over to an armed policeman in London.  Toss the rock at him.  See what happens.   Come back and tell us about it.  Oh, wait.  You won't be able to. 

As for 'madcarew', too much there to answer.  Briefly.. 

1. Go and look up what the word 'Philistine' means, Einstein. 
2.  Prior to 1945, there was really no definition of 'public international law'.  
3.  '… and then the next 1000 years…'  Tell you what : you find the existing people from whom the Jews stole the land, and we'll give it back, OK ?

Anyway, that's all, I think.  Run along now.

I could honestly care less about the middle east, it's a cluster fuck of angry men, built on lands full of money who seem to value human life less than China care about dogs and everytime I go near the place, I get food poisioning. However, I hear Beirut is a pretty good place to go Skiing nowadays, who'd have thought that was possible a few years ago. 

Anyway, isn't Israel smaller than the size of Belgium? No wonder they are so precious about the west bank.

drops the mic...

I thought that road cc was a site for people to discus cycling, not air (dodgy) political views. Anyway i'm off to enjoy the cycling in Israel and hope to see the finish in Rome. Unless of course anyone has anything to say about the savage treatment of Roman slaves, gladiators etc. 

1.  do not trust Wikipedia.  Well, trust it if you want, but don't expect it to pass muster when used in an argument against anyone even remotely skilled in debate or familiar with the actual topic. 

2.  I never said that there was no evidence of 'settled Palestine'.  There is ample.  But what there is is of Roman, Arab and Jewish presence in Palestine.  There is no evidence of the people calling themselves 'Palestinians', but there is ample evidence for 2500 years of the area being occupied by 'philistines' - semi-nomadic peoples. Source : Talmud.

3.  Prior to 1948 there has never been a 'Jewish' state, and the people calling themselves 'Jews' have never - not for a single second - held any more legal right to the land that is now called Israel.  It is thus legal, historical, ethnological and cultural fantasy to call any part of Palestine ' legally or illegally occupied' by Israel. There has never been only one country in that area, and one of those  is 'Israel'. Source: Talmud; 

4.  For roughly 2000 years prior to 1948 there is absolutely no provision in public international law for a Jewish state west of the River Jordan.  It did not exist.  Anywhere.  At all.  It's a fantasy.   Ergo, there is no such thing as 'illegally occupied West Bank', because 'the West Bank' is in fact Judea-Samaria - a region that has been Jewish for five thousand years, except for the first 2000 years when it was small independant states and principalities, the next 1000 years when it was Babylonian, Persian, Hellenistic (Greek), and Roman, though in this 1000 year period the Maccabean revolt did give them self determination for 50 years, and then the next 1000 years when it was Muslim (various states), European (Crusades) Egyptian, Byzantian and Ottoman, and then British. (Source Morris and Ettinger)   August pronouncements about how 'the international community' considers it to be 'illegally occupied' are worth as much as the paper  that the international community wrote upon to declare Israel a State in 1948.  The 'international community' is precisely the body that decides what is 'illegal' and what is 'legal'.

The above are facts and as such,  opinion.  They are legal and historical facts / opinions, which are verifiable.  

(Foot note: I lived 15 km from Gaza for 2 years in the mid 90's and occasionally helped on digs to assist reasearchers from Be'er Sheva University. )

Employing snipers against unarmed protestors trapped in an open air prison is despicable.  The Giro should not be in Israel.  

Legs11 appears to be fighting prejudice with prejudice. What could possibly go wrong!

Israel has stirred the pot immensely over the last 50+ years and just because 'nazis' doesn't mean they can't be criticised in areas in which they act in a similar fashion to.....nazis.

+1 what KendalRed said.

Does criticizing government policy on the 'Windrush Generation' make me anti-British?

Did Mr Bartali actually *want* Israeli citizenship?

Israel's human rights record is abhorent. Fact. 

The UN Human Rights council (which no one accuses of being pseudo-Nazi or anti-Semite) has more resolutions against Israel than the rest of the world combined. Fact.

For a persecuted people to then persecute others in Gaza is the height of hypocrisy. My opinion.

Study that.

@Legs_Eleven_Worcester - I don't really have a dog in this fight and no strong opinion, but your post smells of trolls.

You claim (if I'm interpreting you correctly) that there's no evidence of settled Palestine, yet a quick search and there's a huge amount of information in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Similarly, there's a large article on the Gaza Strip blockade from 2007 to present: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

Can you point me towards some information that would support your view, or are you just ranting?

Oh-oh, here we go.  An article about Israel pops up, so out from under their rock crawl the closet (and not-so-closet) anti-Semites to regale us all with their august pseudo-legal claptrap about 'illegal settlements', and how the phoney people who sprang up in 1964 when Yasser Arafat (you know .. the guy born in .. *drum roll* ... Egypt) and the KGB invented them from remnants of the Hashemite people of Jordan, get to call themselves 'Palestinians' and claim to have lived there 'since time immemorial' and yet can't explain how there is not a single historical, archeological or cultural trace of their presence prior to the beginning of the twentieth century.   You know, idiots like the one above who claim that there is a 'blockade on medical supplies' coming in from Israel, despite tens of thousands of tons of just such supplies crossing the border at Kerem Shalom - every single effing day.  The same idiot who doesn't really care that the Hamas hides its weapons in civilian areas, and that the only news coming out of Gaza is from the terrorists themselves, and well .. why *would* they lie about the number of 'civilians' killed, eh?   The same idiot who doesn't really care that there is also a blockade further south at the border with Egypt.  But then, why should he care?  Egyptians aren't Jews.   

Great News about hero Gino. He was true to his words. Less talk, more deeds. A pious man indeed.

"heightened tensions" is a very inadequate and deceptive euphemism for Israeli soldiers shooting and killing Palestinians while imposing a blockade on medical aid and regularly bombing civilians.

Forget about cycling being tainted by doping, this is much worse.