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Advice on compatibility of cassettes, chains, etc
Hi all,
Idiot/novice here in need of basic advice on cross-compatibility of cassettes, chains and front derailleur indexing.
I own two road bikes: Lapierre is used for commuting and wet winter training, Ribble is used for summer riding and racing. I have one set of wheels for each bike. Cheap alloy on the Lapierre, Carbon rims on the Ribble - both rim brakes.
For context, I am on a tight budget and as such I have bought a set of Fulcrum 900 C17 allow wheels for training on the Ribble so I don't destroy the carbon wheels with my rim brakes when its a bit wet and muddy/gritty on the roads. I would also like to have the option of being able to use these alloy wheels on the Lapierre when winter training in the rain. Mainly because the current Lapierre alloy wheels are ready for the bin (very buckled). So here is my summary below:
Lapierre trainer bike specs:
Shimano Claris 50x39x30T triple chainring (teeth starting to look worn, may need replacing in near future - done 12000km), 8 speed 11-28 cassette and chain are shot and going in the bin. Remainder of drive train is also Claris and probably in need of replacing soon.
Ribble race bike specs:
Shimano 105 50x34T chainring with 105 11 speed 11-34 cassette. Bike is new and done less than 1200km.
SO, my intention is to purchase a 105 11-30 cassette (£42 currently) to fit on the new Fulcrum alloy training wheels for use with either bike. And obviously a new 11 speed chain (<£20) for the Lapierre to make this work.
1. Does anyone see any potential problems with the compatiblity of these setups? E.g. Will the gear indexing still work when switching between these 4 configurations?
2. Can anyone also advise on whether i'm just going to trash the chain etc on the Ribble by swapping the trainer wheel between a very tired drivetrain on the Lapierre and shiny new 105 parts on the Ribble.
Presumably the obvious choice would be to replace the remainder of the drivetrain on the Lapierre with new bits but i'm scraping pennies here and trying to avoid additional expense. However i'm open to any suggestions of corner cutting and deals on parts. For example I've seen chainreactioncycles are doing a 105 full group set for £300, however I do not need the brakes etc. and I cannot really afford £300. Budget is maybe 150 max.
Hope this makes sense to you all. All advice welcome, any other questions, let me know.
Thanks,
G
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23 comments
The bit that leaps out is that the chain rings are worn. This strongly suggests that you aren't changing worn chains at the right time. Chains are wearing parts, though 8 speed quality chains should be good for about 3000 miles - cheap chains can be damaging from new.
Changing chains before over worn leaves cassette and chain rings with very little wear and assuming you use the full range of gears means that it is unlikely that you'll need to change the chain rings for many years, and the cassette should last about 3 chains. Don't change the chain and you get pointy teeth on the chain ring and when you put a new chain on, it slips.
An over-worn chain is also unsafe and could snap under load.
If you can stretch your budget a little you can find good condition secondhand 105 11-speed groupsets on eBay for as little as £180, might be a good option. As others have commented, no way you can just shove an 11-sp cassette into an 8-sp system.
Or a complete new 105 groupset for £300.
www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-105-r7000-11-speed-rim-brake-groupset
Sell off the excess parts - used Claris shifters easily fetch £40 on ebay; the new 105 calipers the same (if you were happy to keep the old ones).
There may also be Black Friday deals on other groupsets
Good deal - but I was trying to work with the OP's "£150 max" budget!
Oh yes... well, £150 net then...(there go the derailleurs too)
It would be a faff, but if the wheels are compatible with 8 and 11 speed cassettes you could fit an 8 speed cassette to the rear wheel to use with the crap bike, and swap over to an 11 speed cassette if you want to go out on the Ribble.
As the other bloke mentioned you probably need to change brake pads on the Ribble if they are carbon specific.
Might be easier to just use the wheels with the lapierre assuming they are compatible. You can't use the same cassette for both bikes unless you changed pretty much the whole groupset over.
1. 8-speed and 11-speed components are not even remotely compatible.
2. you will wear components much faster mixing new and worn drivetrain items.
Also, carbon rims usually need different brake pads to alloy ones.
Unless you really want 105 on both bikes then just replace the 8-speed rings, chain & cassette on the Lapierre. It will be cheaper to run (e.g. chains £12 v £24, cassettes £16 v £45, chainrings £??).
If you go for the 105 groupset you should check whether the 105 calipers are the appropriate depth for your frame. Most Shimano calipers are 39-49mm but ones with a bit more clearance for mudguards are 47-57mm. And you'll need to pay a mechanic to fit the 105 groupset.
Frequent chain cleaning & lubrication increases chain life significantly and consequently the other parts. Replacing the chain & cassette before they are too worn (more info here) will help the chainrings last longer. Similarly, fitting good pads such as Kool Stop salmon and regular cleaning in wet weather will reduce rim wear.
Agreed. Your brifters (and most other indexed gear selectors) cement you into whatever speeds setup they are designed for.
You'll need to decide which bike the additional wheels are going to be for - useful site about cassettes and freehubs: https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Cassette_How-To_-_Part_2_3257.html
You old wheels are either fixable, or are done-in and potentially dangerous, e.g. if the rims are worn thin by years of braking. (Don't bin the hubs, though.)
If they're time-served, there's a risk that one 8s brifter will expire at some point, probably beyond economic repair.
One a quick Google, I can see a couple of EU suppliers who appear to have the replacement Claris chainrings in stock. I've never managed to do replacement chainrings - either economics or logistics seem to get in the way. By the time you've fiddled about, you could have gone for:
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m8b0s109p2000/SPA-CYCLES-XD-2-Touring-Triple...
The replacement 8s cassettes and chains are straightforward to find. Groupsets are quite hard to come by still.
PS Are you on Octalink? If so if ever you want to remove the chainset: https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Shimano-Octalink-Chainset-Plug-Crank-Puller-Con...
Thanks for your thoughts.
Perhaps my rambling post wasn't clear, but the 8 speed cassette on the lapierre is going in the bin and intention is to turn that bike into an 11 speed by changing the cassette and chain.
Are there any other parts that are not 11 speed compatible in their present state?
Yeah. The shifters, crankset, derailleurs and probably more that I've forgotten about
Yes, the shifters and the rear derailleur! Put simply, an 11-speed cassette fills the same space as an 8-speed cassette; your 8-speed shifters/RD will shift the chain across one eighth of the distance whilst 11-speed ones will move it one eleventh of the distance, so if you have an 11-speed cassette with the chain on the smallest sprocket and you try to make a change up with an 8-sp derailleur and shifter it will shift too far and you'll end up with the chain rubbing and hopping around between the second and third sprocket. An 11-speed cassette will only work with an 11-speed RD and shifters, there's no workaround I'm afraid.
Plus the front derailleur and crank set, unless you think an 11 speed chain is the same width as an 8 speed chain.
I'm a bit hazy on this: I think all you say is undoubtedly right about the rear, but there seems to be a bit more "not that fussed, mate" about the front?
It puzzles me that my Stronglight examples cover a range of speeds or the information isn't given at all.
I also saw some other sites flirting with mixing in 10s Tiagra with 11s 105. Fora are full of this type of stuff!
Depends what you're mixing, it is possible to bodge by fiddling with adjustment screws etc; Mrs H once had a 10sp Ultegra crankset that worked fine with a Sora 8sp chain and RD. However with an 8 speed crankset and an 11 speed chain the narrower chain would most likely slip between the chainrings, I wouldn't like to try it. But certainly there's more improvisation leeway with chainsets than there is with cassettes.
I managed to put the small front chain wheel on the wrong way round and it got stuck, so trying an 11 speed chain on an 8 speed chain wheel is not going to be a good combo.
I think cainrings are good for 10s / 11s I'm sure they were even marked this way at one time, but I wou;d doubt chainrings for an 8speed would accept an 11speed chain, as the teeth would be too wide, built to accomodate the wider 8 speed chain.
The *inner* width of chains between the plates should be the same - it's the outer width that has changed. So an 8 speed chain wouldn't fit an 11 speed cassette with its narrow spacings - but it should be OK on the actual "8 speed" chainrings. Might be some issues with other parts though - best not to mix'n'match too ambitiously.
The inner width of chains isn't the same. Once you get past 5-6-7 speed, they're narrower for each successive speed.
I'd be interested to see a link (no pun intended) for that. I took my advice from here: www.velonews.com/gear/tech-faq-chain-width-explained-compatibility-queri... - although I do see others which state a difference between 5-8 speeds and 9-12 speeds (e.g. https://bike.bikegremlin.com/3555/bicycle-drive-chain-dimension-standard... or www.statecyclist.com/bike-chain-size-chart/). But not between each successsive speed.
Perhaps we are both partly wrong?
The outer/external width does get narrower between each successive speed. (The articles also discuss which aspects of shifting the outer width makes a difference too, versus which aspects the inner width is relevant for).
Agreed, and you do need to consider all the variables (while seeing through the marketing BS), not just inner chain widths. I was just responding - also slightly incorrectly, as it happened - to a specific point. My original reply above did also include "issues with other parts though - best not to mix'n'match too ambitiously".
All that would mean though is that it would fit a single chain wheel but with a triple, the spacing between the 3 would be incompatible.
It was quite a specific point I was referring to, and certainly not all that's relevant in a happy shifting outcome (which is the result of more than one variable). I wouldn't fancy the 8/11 mixture with a triple set-up, although Sheldon (and my own experience) suggests less mis-matched set-ups are probably fine.
www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html#chainrings