Whilst proper segregated cycling infrastructure is one of the most important ways to keep cyclists safe on the roads, a group of blind people and campaign groups have raised concerns about the danger posed by ‘floating bus stops’.
Called ‘floating’ for their position between the road and cycle lane, away from the pavement, bus users have to cross the cycle route to access the bus stop, something blind and visually impaired people say can be problematic, with one campaigner from Glasgow suggesting it makes using the bus “like playing Russian roulette”.
Sandy Taylor has joined with others from the National Federation of the Blind and 162 different disability groups to pass a petition to Downing Street calling for the abolition of that particular style of cycle lane, pictured below in photos taken by engineer Dave McCraw.
In contrast on SCW the bus stops are all consistent. Again, I saw only very contented pedestrians and cyclists here: pic.twitter.com/oMbotQ0Ni8
— Dave McCraw (@david_mccraw) October 24, 2022
“For a blind person it is impossible to access buses,” he told Glasgow Live. “I use a long cane to help. Some people have a guide dog and they are trained to stop at the kerb, but it can only recognise a kerb with a minimum height of 60mm.
“So what is happening is guide dogs are taking their owners across the cycle lane because they are not aware. Quite frankly a blind person, like myself, is not going to take a chance. It’s like playing Russian roulette.
“How am I going to know when a cyclist is coming along?”
Explaining the reliance blind people have on public transport, Mr Taylor called the city’s bus routes “absolutely vital” and hoped his campaigning would see bus stops moved back to the pavement.
“Buses are normally much more accessible than trains to take us to places we want to go to like shops. Public transport is extremely important to us and these cycle lanes are all over the country.
“I came up on the train on Tuesday night and a young lady sat next to me. We started a conversation, she said she was a student in Glasgow, she was a cyclist as well. She had no idea about the impact of the cycle lanes on us. There will be so many people who don’t realise.
“People can see cyclists coming along, we can’t. What we are asking for is that the bus pulls up next to the pavement kerb, where we can get on and off the bus safely.
“We don’t have a cycle lane to cross. We want direct access to buses. Disabled people must not be put at a disadvantage compared to non-disabled people and clearly adjustments need to be made but they aren’t.
“The emphasis is very much on cyclist access, I have nothing against that, but much of the infrastructure that is put in place has negative impact on not just blind or visually impaired people, but many other disabled and elderly people as well.”
Floating bus stops are designed to keep cyclists safe by bypassing stops away from the traffic. A 2016 analysis by Sustrans looked at 28 hours of footage at a newly-installed floating bus stop in Cambridge and found that “all interactions” between road users at the infrastructure displayed “safe, normal behaviour”.
Furthermore, 99 per cent of cyclists were involved in no interaction with pedestrians. Of the 42 interactions that did occur between pedestrians and cyclists, all were at peak times, and all scored one or two on a five-point hazard scale. No analysis was done on the interaction between blind or visually impaired people and cyclists.
Last year a London cyclist blamed the design of one floating bus stop for him being left-hooked by a taxi driver turning across the segregation’s exit to a hotel.

40 thoughts on ““Like playing Russian roulette”: Blind people raise concerns about ‘floating’ cycle lane bus stops”
Genuine question: how do
Genuine question: how do blind people manage in places like the Netherlands, where this kind of floating bus stop design is standard?
You beat me to it. I had
You beat me to it. I had thought that this design had come over the Channel too, so presumably there is a lot of data from there to explain how to establish and use floating bus stops safely…?
I don’t know but there’s a
I don’t know but there’s a BicycleDutch article and video on bus stops which is worth a watch, which shows that:
a) They should have the usual tactiles to guide people to them across other spaces (e.g. cycle paths).
b) They don’t normally visually mark crossing points on the actual cycle track (e.g. with painted zebras) as an additional alert for cyclists. Note the Dutch do mark this in some other places Arguable either way but this is very different from the UK where the few examples I’ve seen go wild with markings because *CYCLISTS! BEWARE! THERE ARE CYCLISTS HERE!*
How this works in practice? Presumably it’s not much different than crossing any other space e.g. a non-signalised crossing of road or cycle track elsewhere. I don’t think there are many if any signalised crossings of cycle paths and in NL it’s likely you’ll need to cross these quite regularly. From here, the rules for the disabled regarding crossing roads are (or were in 2017 – Dutch Road Law 2.19 Pedestrians Article 49):
1 Drivers must give priority at all times to blind or partially sighted pedestrians carrying a white cane with one or a number of red rings around it and also to all other persons with disabilities.
2 Drivers must give way at all times to pedestrians and drivers of invalid carriages who are crossing, or obviously waiting to cross at a pedestrian crossing.
So it sounds like it’s not that different to the UK’s “just step out and the drivers will stop” but maybe a little more clear what’s expected?
From the UK perspective the Ranty Highwayman has some thoughtful information on bus stop / cycle path designs.
For a different perspective there is a negative comment from a Dutch person with visual imparment in the following article (note – coming from the US – in my experience visiting Americans are often incredulous about the number of cyclists and the lack of regulation):
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-27/easing-tension-between-dutch-cyclists-and-walkers
maybe the difference is they
maybe the difference is they simply train their guide dogs a bit differently.
I think the majority of riders are smart enough to cope with giving blind people extra space and time, for sure there are those that wont, but we dont build infra on the basis of the few who arent capable of self control.
Im not sure Id even use one of these as a route if there was a bus picking up or offloading passengers.
They will – but it’s not just
They will – but it’s not just that. It may even be that we can improve on what we’ve got in NL for the blind and visually impared. However – as alluded to with the mention of the RNIB not having any figures on “deaths by cyclist” I suspect it’s not really an “issue” there either.
The chap interviewed – I have sympathy because “change” and it’s hardest for him. However there’s still a part of me thinking “and you’re happy navigating the rest of the environment – on and off public transport, presumably across roads – but you’re worried about *cyclists*?!”
If we have mass cycling – like in NL – then there will be the usual human percentage of people who’re intoxicated, distracted or reckless – cycling. Mostly travelling less than 15mph.
In the UK we don’t have mass cycling so these people will often be in a car. Mostly travelling more than 20mph. The children and some of the disabled will have to get someone to drive them.
I prefer the first picture.
Not sure why you feel you wouldn’t use the route if buses were loading/unloading? Maybe it’s the vision of how it could be in the UK with a massive stream of passengers looking at the cyclist in horror or disapproval and you having to stop? Again, don’t know but I suspect in NL you slow, there’s a moment of eye contact, someone pauses for a couple of seconds and you’ve cycled past and they’re crossing behind you.
Because the UK doesnt have a
Because the UK doesnt have a mass cycling culture and consequently pedestrians rarely have cyclists top of their mind.
I notice it all the time on shared infra and even on the road, you’re treated as the odd exception and most pedestrians cant handle the exception
I’ve seen it even with a separated cycle path passing a bus stop that has a wide pavement in between, they all get off the bus and most wander straight across into the cycle lane even though it means stepping over a ankle high barrier, to which if you are approaching you ring a bell or shout, and they look totally shocked to see you.
The thought of passing a bus with passengers piling out where I’m cycling much closer. I’d take my chances on the road.
True – like any change, all
True – like any change, all the people living through it are guinea-pigs / crash-test dummies. I’ve had that confrontation moment where I found myself pointing at the “shared use” sign right next to us – of course by then it’s not helping anyone…
Fortunately if changing from more cars to more cycling the amount of harm is likely to be much less than the change we have already gone through (from cycling and no cars to cars and almost no cycling). I believe the longer-term effects will be hugely positive.
Some of this is due to things we almost certainly could have avoided. The obvious one is “sign a cycle facility into existence” with “shared use” on already narrow footways – leading to much confusion, conflict and resentment. Many places do not properly mark pedestrian and cycling areas where they are separate. There’s also zero standardisation across the UK – imagine if we had different road designs, widths, markings and signage all over the place. Trivial example: where it’s even marked there are at least 3 widely-used colours for cycle paths – blue, green and red. These are also used in different places for “walkway”…
They are near the top of
They are near the top of their mind, except that in their mind the cyclist has horns and glowing eyes an£ speaks like Hannibal Lecter…
I encountered a pedestrian on
I encountered a pedestrian on a shared path yesterday, seemed to be meandering about and could tell they werent looking out for or expecting cyclists in anyway, so I rang my bell just as a hello heads up you might want to be aware Im approaching, and they just stopped turned round and simply stared at me like that last scene out of the body snatchers, I dont know if they were tripping out on drugs or my front light was causing them depth perception issues or something else, but I virtually had to then stop right in front of them because they just werent going to move out of the cycle lane, and I couldnt move sooner in case they suddenly did then move into my path, and I was left kind of then to go around them like a roundabout, and they didnt say a single damn word
I guess the short of it is:
I guess the short of it is:
a) disabled people already have a raw deal
b) they are often disproportionately affected by changes
c) they may have by necessity invested a lot of effort into learning how to work with the current system
d) …so they’re rightly concerned.
As someone who isn’t disabled it’s easy to dismiss this because I feel that moving some people from driving to cycling will reduce both risk and lessen consequences of accidents. I’m also persuaded that good quality cycling infra facilitates independent mobility for many (disabled) people. However we should take these concerns seriously and listen to them when they come from those affected. That doesn’t mean there isn’t also bogus “selective concern” of those who merely wish to preserve the status quo.
I should have written
I should have written “someone who isn’t disabled yet” – as a bumper sticker read: “Please be considerate. We’re not exclusive – disability is a club anyone can join.”
I’m disabled but use a bike
I’m disabled but use a bike to get around. Removing bike lanes like these as Mr Taylor wants would be detrimental to disabled people like me.
I think this highlights the need for improvements to the design of the cycling infrastructure rather than its removal, as seems to be the opinion of so many when something new comes along.
Surely a starting point is to
Surely a starting point is to ask how guide dogs (and other people of limited vision) identify hazards. For example, if we accept that cyclists are behaving like motorists and ploughing through areas without consideration for other road users, then what tools have the road designers got to play with. The obvious one would be zebra crossings which give the guide dogs their cue and allow for negotiation at a point of conflict that use a system both cyclists and pedestrians understand. There isn’t a perfect solution but cyclist/pedestrian conflict is generally going to be safer than bus/bicycle conflict, or worse, as is often seen, bus/bicycle/pedestrian/car conflict.
Solihull’s answer is to build foot high 45 degree ramps which impose a burden on the cyclist regardless of any pedestrian activity – not a fan.
Also picking up on the
Also picking up on the article, a 60mm kerb could be installed near floating bus stops to give guid dogs a visual clue.
There are other issues, like
There are other issues, like the guide dog never starts a movement, it has to be commanded, it will stop if it detects a threat, so blind people, paradoxically, might be less confident around cyclists than cars and lorries. However, although a cyclist may not be heard in the same way, but obviously there is opportunity for communication – a cyclist should recognise the situation ane be able to talk to the visually impaired person.
I would like to think it shouldn’t be a problem but I suspect cyclists have a similar percentage of idiots as the general population, perhaps with a slightly lower percentage of mentally unstable people who turn into homicidal maniacs if their journey appears to be under threat of temporary delay by the wrong sort of road user.
I don’t know about anyone
I don’t know about anyone else here but I am always extra cautious whenever I see a pedestrian with a white stick or a guide dog, slow down, make them aware of my presence if necessary.
And cyclists do try not the hit any pedestrians, or anything really, it hurts.
It’s not like in an car, van or lorry, where there may be regret, but very little pain or injury for the driver. Bit of a knock to the insurance, and a trip to the body shop, not the hospital.
Not being visually impaired
Not being visually impaired myself, beyond needing glasses, it’s difficult to fully empathise with the daily difficulties that such a disability brings. However, I’m wondering if there is an element of finding a problem with the concept of floating bus stops and other infrastructure where one doesn’t really exist, or which could be mitigated with relatively little fuss? The mitigation being to cycle with awareness of bus passengers crossing the cycle lane and for designers to ensure that cues for blind pedestrians and their guide dogs are being applied consistently.
I have seen several examples
I have seen several examples of people trying to argue a charity for disabled group objects to infra completely, on basis that they campaign that it needs mitigation X.
As the easy example given, blind user complaining that they can’t identify cycle lanes. It doesn’t show grade separation or separated lanes is wrong, it shows grade separation needs a minimum height differential (or some other measure) to allow for identification.
Of course this also leads to awful arguments where campaigners on both sides end up arguing about an issue that they could probably agree on (the infra needs slight changes) because third parties are trying to use it to prevent any infra changes…
Where I live, some of the
Where I live, some of the rare bike stands were taken away to create a disabled parking space. How to get two minorities fighting ovwr the scraps…
A few years ago, I think,
A few years ago, I think, when there was a different article about the supposed conflict/dangers of interactions between blind people and cyclists I asked the RNIB for data on the numbers of injuries/deaths of blind people by type of vehicle to try to assess where the majority of dangers comes from.
They were unable to provide the info.
Perhaps if we had that, rather than just the concerns expressed in this article we might be closer to dealing with what actually is a danger to blind people.
I won’t hesitate to guess that it is the driving standards of some motor vehicle users.
Surely motor vehicles cant
Surely motor vehicles cant present a danger can they??? *sarcastic face*
I don’t get it.
I don’t get it.
Why aren’t the tactile guides sufficient? Genuine question.
You have to find them first.
You have to find them first. I think the wider issue is undifferentiated cycle and pavement. A white line on the pavement doesn’t mean anything to a dog and may not be visible to a blind person who is able to get around to some extent. Not all partially sighted people use guide dogs, some can manage with a stick (quite a lot of blind people have some vision which may allow them to cope while needing to manage obstacles that they can’t distinguish well). A pavement with an edge is easier to manage because it can be felt. Remember also that a lot of these people will learn their regular routes.
The other problem is that while there is a tactile area, understanding the hazard it is guiding you to and what is at the end of the area isn’t explained simply by the presence of dimples. In part this goes back to learning routes, but a tactile area only leads you to the hazard, not through it.
Always a good idea to offer assistance at any crossing – “Would you like help crossing the road?” – they’ll soon let you know if they would like it or not.
You mean that paint offers no
You mean that paint offers no protection…
Secret_squirrel wrote:
Maybe there aren’t any or not enough of them. The problem is also with the guide dogs not knowing about cycle lanes.
So this then is the root
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How about adopting a solution
How about adopting a solution like the bariers that USA school buses put out to stop traffic passing when their passengers are crossing the road? In this case the barier just needs to block the cycle lane. We wait for traffic lights already, what’s wrong with waiting for bus passengers? They are, like us helping to reduce road traffic and global warming.
If we get to where we might
If we get to where we might want to with cycling (mass cycling) this really isn’t needed. Cyclist – pedestrian interactions are self-regulating, insofar as that ever happens in human affairs. See BicycleDutch’s article and video here, featuring a brief clip of someone with a visual imparement crossing roads and cycleways. It looks chaotic but – as I’ve experienced – after a short time in that environment you learn how to navigate it and it doesn’t seem any inconvenience to you.
EDIT: if we allow some kind of “speed pedelec” or achieve the rare feat of establishing genuine cycle highways (never mind “superhighways”) it might be sensible to consider this. Currently I’m only aware of the Netherlands starting to get to this point – we’re likely many decades away.
However in the UK this is all new. It’s rare to encounter cyclists and cycling is a (tiny) minority activity. I guess it might make sense to implement some of these reassurances for pedestrians. However it’s important that this doesn’t make cycling more inconvenient (cf. “cyclists dismount!”) or further the impression that people need protection from “dangerous cyclists”. Otherwise we’ll soon not need these “pedestrian assistance” measures again!
In the case of the complainant in the article what we’re dealing with is someone who’s got used to the current situation. They’ve learned to accept and work within a really dangerous and inconvenient environment with cars (and their infrastructure – kerbs, road signage poles …) everywhere. So – even though it may improve things long-term – any change from now is frightening (since it’s already bad) and seems an inconvenience.
I’m disappointed that no one
I’m disappointed that no one has suggested that this is called Bussian Roulette
Unusual to use an email
Unusual to use an email address for a public facing username. Was that a deliberate choice?
whilst not wishing to
whilst not wishing to denigrate the concerns of the campaign groups it assumes that the cyclist is not looking. If the person on a cycle sees someone crossing to a bus stop they slow down and give priority. In most cases I imagine people on cycles moderate their speed as they pass bus stops.
So doesnt sound like there
So doesnt sound like there have been any injuries at all to blind people using these crossings? If there had they would have referenced these statistics as evidence.
So rather impossible to come to any other conclusion that therefore they arent dangerous…..
It’s the fear of injury that
It’s the fear of injury that’s the issue, rather than the actual rate of injury.
So you can quote the stats all day long but unless those registered blind people, and I’d add the elderly or people with physical impairment into the same group, feel comfortable it’s really not an issue for them, they wont be happy and will continue to object to these schemes.
Problem is there is no way to
Problem is there is no way to have both “no cyclists going past – to make pedestrians feel safe” AND “cyclists not interacting with buses at every stop – to make them feel safe”. (Now waiting for pictures of buses equipped with ramps at either end so cyclists can cycle right over them, or traffic-light-controlled switch-points where cyclists cross to the outside of unloading buses and then back again…)
The UK has experimented with putting cycle provision on the inside of pedestrians. I think in general this causes more problems than “cycle provision between pedestrians and motor vehicles”. However this is done (e.g. the very new “cyclops junctions”) there is no getting around pedestrians needing to cross a cycle path at some point.
Visually impaired people have already got used to the apparently much more objectively dangerous streetscapes designed for or appropriated by motor vehicles. Not to mention dealing with those vehicles – moving or parked – themselves. The UK government is apparently regularising electric scooters so there are more things that disabled people will have to learn to deal with, likely without much further official consideration. I suspect that they’ll simply have to get used to dealing with these bus stop designs like they do in e.g. NL (but likely with more fussy layouts because UK). Whether we get many more or whether – like so many initiatives to enable active travel in the UK – this stalls is an open question.
This problem will fix itself
The way things are going, this problem will fix itself soon, as there won’t be any buses stopping at floating bus stops anyway…
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/angry-glasgow-councillor-hits-out-25315221
So the root cause of the
So the root cause of the problem is:
Does a design standard (or atleast best practise) exist for cycle lanes with bus stops that balance out the needs of cyclsists, the blind and the disabled? (Probably I would guess – paging @RantyHighwayman )
Why isnt this design standard enforced on councils?
None of which requires removal of the stops – just revamping. But I suspect (totally unfairly) that the petition raiser isnt looking for solutions – just crusading.
Secret_squirrel wrote:
I’m all for blind people crusading for consistent road designs – too often blind and/or disabled people are just forgotten about when councils try to “fix” roads and junctions.
In Bristol, we have a “Shared Space” behind Temple Meads Station that allows a free mix of cars, cyclists and pedestrians, but that was deemed as being very scary for blind users as they had no idea where they were supposed to walk as there’s no kerbs.
Word!
Word!
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/12/the-devastating-effect-of-shared-space.html
In general – you say “shared space!” I say “No!”
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/04/shared-space-revisited-hype-continues.html
https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/document/interactions-and-conflict-between-pedestrians-joggers-cyclists-and-other-users-of-shared
If it’s like the ones on the
If it’s like the ones on the new cycle route through Chiswick, then it’s shameful to say that cyclists are not helping. The zebra crossings may as well not be there, every time I stop I get a look of surprise and disbelief from pedestrians.
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Adam, Adam – be careful. Be VERY careful.
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On this site, cyclists are NEVER in the wrong.
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And on those few occasions when they are, in fact, in the wrong – well, see Rule 1. above.
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