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news
gwr_class_800_cc_by-sa_3.0_on_wikimedia_commons_by_rsa.jpgUPDATED: Cycle storage logos on the way for new GWR trains – ETA… TBC
*This article has been updated with a response from GWR's Media Relations Manager.
Is a train manufacturer making life difficult for cyclists in the south west of England and Wales by preventing rail operating company GWR from putting cycle stickers on the outside of carriages where bikes can be stowed? That’s what one road.cc reader says he was told after he ran into difficulties getting his bike on a train from Bristol to London.
If you ever take your bike on a train, whether occasionally or as part of your commute, you’ll know that it can be an ordeal at times.
Besides restrictions on what kind of bike you can take at what time, there are also issues of spaces available, leading some operators to recommend – or even require – reservations.
One company that has introduced compulsory reservations on its faster trains is GWR, an issue we’ve previously covered.
> GWR cycle booking policy attracts 1200-strong petition
Now road.cc reader Oliver Strother has been in touch to flag up another problem with getting a bike onto a GWR service, one related to new rolling stock and the difficulty he encountered finding the part of the train where cycles are stored – and once he did, how poor the facility was.
One of the problems he had was that unlike on the previous trains that the new ones have replaced, there is no sticker with a picture of a bicycle on the side of the carriage where bikes can be placed – and he was later told that the reason was that the train manufacturer, Hitachi, won’t permit them.
That seems rather strange to us – given that the bike storage area isn’t going to move around the train, surely the bicycle logo could (and should) have been incorporated in the vinyl wrap of the GWR livery? And since publishing this story a spokesman for Hitachi has told road.cc that there is nothing to prevent stickers being applied to their trains - plenty of them already have them - and that they are not stopping them being applied.
The first of the new class 800 trains entered service last year and in all GWR has ordered 86 units – meaning there is a lot of potential for frustrated cyclists across the franchise’s routes.
We’ve been in touch with GWR to ask them whether that explanation given to Oliver is true, and you can read their response below.
But in the meantime, here’s Oliver’s story in his own words …
(Deep breath)
There's some snags with GWR's new bike policy and trains. The new trains arrived in October 2017, 45 trains so far (I 'think' loaned) into service from Hitachi, growing to 90. And the new cycle reservation policy from GWR came in to effect this month.
As the story goes...
Today I tried to book the 1733 train from Bristol Parkway to London an hour before departure online at GWR’s website. But I was unable to secure a cycle reservation, and the new policy says no cycle reservation = no cycle on train.
So I took a punt, and went down to the station ticket office who at 1715 said there was plenty bike spaces available, so I booked a ticket avec cycle reservation.
Head to platform, train arrives, as the train passes I look for cycle symbol but there isn't one. I head to the last section of the train, but no bike symbol anywhere. #wheredoigo? Train manager Simon pops out and says carriage 'A' or 'D' , at this point I'm stood outside 'L'. (later the I'm told the staff are not permitted by Hitachi to put a bicycle sticker on the outside of the train).
I run down the platform, and ask the next platform chap, who says its actually 'B' or 'H'. I find 'H' and get on.
As I try to fit bike in the allotted space, it won't fit. There is a hook at the top of the space, where the wheel is meant to be hung, however my tyre/rim (a Continental 700x33c / Mavic A719) doesn't fit. I don't think my tyres are particularly chunky, they're not Mtb tyres. Also there is a fold down divider hinge, which looks to be in a poor state of repair.
I had a good chat with the super polite train managers (Simon and Simon) who were equally frustrated, and ask me to make a fuss/complaint to give it some attention. Slow bike loading slows down the train, which isn't good for anyone, especially Simon and Simon. So here it is, share if you've read this far.
Seems a pretty simple thing, getting a bike on a train. Makes me wonder why this has failed so badly. I wonder who designed the bike space? What their names were? How much it cost? Is my sticking out bike a fire escape hazard? Will the two Simons get a bicycle sticker for the train window ...
#getsimonasticker #GWR
In a subsequent conversation via Twitter, GWR said signs would be added to carriages.
*Update: Great Western Railway's Media Relations Manager James Davis told road.cc:
"We operate a reservation policy (ie you have to have a reservation beforehand to bring your bike on board) ensuring everyone who wishes to travel with their bike is able to do so. The location of the bike reservation (ie where in the train you have been allocated a space), is clearly marked on that reservation. We are however working with Hitachi to improve some on board and external signage including additional quiet carriage labelling and exterior bike signs.
"While we cannot verify what any member of staff may or may not have said to the customer, I think we would expect our staff to help the customer and inform him/her of where he can find details of his bike reservation on his ticket.
"Attached is a picture of a cross bike in situ in the bike rack from yesterday. The racks are capable of taking standard 700c wheels of road, cross and mountain bikes.
"The trains in question are new (the first one entered service last October) with modern interiors including at seat power, free WiFi etc, luggage and bike storage facilities; but if you know which service the customer travelled on and we will be able to check the state of any divider hinge and having it replaced/repaired if necessary."
To help GWR get that divider hinge sorted we can confirm that the train in question was the 17.33 from Bristol Parkway to London on Tuesday 22nd of May.
Simon joined road.cc as news editor in 2009 and is now the site’s community editor, acting as a link between the team producing the content and our readers. A law and languages graduate, published translator and former retail analyst, he has reported on issues as diverse as cycling-related court cases, anti-doping investigations, the latest developments in the bike industry and the sport’s biggest races. Now back in London full-time after 15 years living in Oxford and Cambridge, he loves cycling along the Thames but misses having his former riding buddy, Elodie the miniature schnauzer, in the basket in front of him.
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36 comments
CyclingUK was invited to test out the spaces a few years ago, our group invaded the mock-up with a tourer, recumbent, 'gas-pipe' special (28" wheels & westwood rims), and a tandem. We made comments, (extra height needed - dump the fold down bar - better design of hanging system - & ideally avoid having to lift whole weight of bike off the floor - all of which are deliverable & have been on a design which has been used on trains, trams, and buses since 1988, and is still being used). There is much swearing about that bl**dy fold down bar in a rather congested video of trying to fit one of the bikes in on the day, and we said it should be removed entirely. No surprise really that it was broken.
Pictures of bikes that won't fit welcomed, along with bike-passenger counts on local trains. Many train assisted rides from Central London, can see up to 70% of the fare paying passengers on a train taking bikes on board - a typical 4-coach unit can usually carry 18-20 bikes stowed in places which have been passed as safe to use - when the trains are lightly loaded. Traions for the London Overground (used for cyclists special services to Ride London start at Stratford) and this year trains for Crossrail as well, should have even greater capacity - possibly 150-200 bikes & riders per unit. Find me a sponsor & we might even look at trains back from the London-Brighton ride - to 3 Bridges at least (as its downhill to the Thames from there)
We met with GWR in December 2016 with their promise to deliver a simplified and immediate system for making reservations, which was to be beta tested in Summer 2017, and the first 6 trains going in to service in October 2017.
Worth noting that with a bike weighing typically 12-20 Kg, the action to lift the full weight entirely off the floor may well exceed the envelope for safe lifting set out in the Manual Handling Regulations, and thus any harm incurred by a non-employee required to lift an item in an unsafe way may render the TOC, or equipment manufacturer, liable under Section 3 of HSAWA 1974.
So do send reports in to CyclingUK number of bikes on your train, bike racks falling apart, etc. It keeps those of us working on this issue aware of what is being delivered.
manual_handling_regulations.jpg
Funnily enough (=not very funny), my OH & I are currently standing holding our bikes upright in the corridor of one of these new trains. We made reservations but there are five bikes for two spaces and passengers already sitting and standing in the vestibule.
There is an empty cupboard opposite which could help but train staff refuse to unlock it. It's for a food trolley we're told isn't coming down the packed train anyway. I presume it would be more than their job's worth to let us use it though.
The design of that bike compartment is easily as bad as some of the designs other students came up with whilst I was studying engineering
I guess I know where they got jobs though.
There may be two hooks but looks like they are so close together you have to choose which one you use, not both
If there is only one bike, is there anything to stop it flopping around and potentially damaging it?
Japan has new trains that allow up to 90 bikes per service. They stand upright in special bays in every carriage and do not require them to be covered.
ATEOTD encouraging bike use within a joined up travel network has benefits all round. Fewer taxi journeys, fewer hire bikes that proliferate the landscape and importantly fewer car journeys as highlighted perfectly by a poster at the top of the thread.
I got so pissed off using east coast I ended up driving the 3 hours to the folks and loading the bike in the boot, door to door it was shorter and much less stressful and worth the extra £10-15, though I'd only save that travelling off peak.
In Japan you are allowed to take bikes on any trains provided they are in a bag. I took my bike all over the country on the subway, in commuter trains, Bullet trains and everything inbetween. The "Rinko" bags are around £30, lightweight (typically stuff into back pocket or into a plastic tube that fits in the your water bottle holder while riding) and mean train users avoid dirtying their clothes when moving past your bike. Even folding bikes have to have one. Most just require you to take your front wheel off before you fit the wheel and bike into the bag - takes <5mins to do.
Brilliant idea for allowing bikes onto trains without restrictions and without annoying the greater public
attachment-1.jpeg
I had to get a train the other day to go to some races I was working at and found the same but with wheelchair access as well.
The markings on the side of the carriage are so small that as the train pulls into the platform, it can easily be missed. You would think that they would have different coloured doors to easily distinguish for customers with mobility issues.
Even when I asked the staff where was the best place to stand for the bike carriage (there were two on that service), it was a nonchalent reply of "you'll have to look when the train pulls in".
Another caveat is even if you do book, there is no guarantee that the seat (and presumably by implication any reserved bike space) will actually exist if GWR change the train.
We booked seats for our children for a long journey on their own to stay with family only to find that the train configuration had been changed without notice and the carriage they were booked into was not there.
As a result, as it was a crowded train they spent best part of 2 hrs sitting on the floor next to the loo and no help from GWR at all.
From experience working for a rival train operator who looked at bidding for the GWR franchise. The contracts with Hitachi are extremely one sided and allow for zero flexibility. Not being allowed to stick a sticker on the side of the train. The whole thing was negotiated by the DfT and is a right mess.
Merseyrail is generally good with bikes but lots of passengers sit in the bike section at busy time as there's seats there. When you arrive with a bike they look everywhere but in your direction. I've become a lot more bold at saying can you move? however in recent years....I emailed Merseyrail to say on the new trains they get in 2020 I'd hope they wouldnt have foldup seats in them, but I can almost guarantee they will, so I guess i'll unnessarily continue to talk and tell a sometimes disgrunted commuter to move and let me put my bike in the section.
Feel good i've got that off my chest
I'd be pretty disgruntled if I'd managed to find a fold-down seat that positions my face in someone's crotch on an overcrowded rush-hour train, and someone with a bike gets on with a 'can you move?'.
That setup always seems like it's a feeble attempt at bike storage while admitting its trains aren't big enough for rush-hour... Is it priority for passengers, or bikes? Surely on a busy train, one bike can't take precedence over 3 passengers?
The lack of cycle stickers is just an additional "You aren't welcome anymore" message from a train operating company that has become increasing anti-cycling in recent years. As most of them have.
Heaven forbid someone might want to go for a bike ride, heading in whatever direction the impulse and the winds take them, and when tiredness hits divert to the nearest railway station. Apparently, now the last trains with guard's vans (or compartments in the power car) are being phased out, that's an unreasonable thing to want to do. That's progress for you.
I suspect gwr forgot to specify the stickers and when they asked for it to be done retrospectively, they didn't like the price.
Slightly unrealted but the punctuality of GWR has been shocking since the new year so they had some representatives present at my local station earlier this week. They were taking feedback and passing on what they are doing to get things back on track (so to speak). This is on the Paddington to Hereford line.
The blame seemed mainly pinned on the drivers. At one stage the representative said "sunny days and school holidays coincide with driver <air quotes> illness <end air quotes>".
I find it unbelievable that they are owning up to their employees intentionally throwing sickies which impacts the lives and livelihoods of thousands of people. I was staggered. There is no way that non-unionised employees would be able to get away with stuff like this.
Love that you fell hook, line and sinker for that bit of blame game. There's no way that any employee would be able to get away with stuff like that, unionised or not, with a properly managed sickness absence policy. Just like the whole franchising mess, there's normally an explanation for these things that's more complex, corrupt and outrageous than a few staff 'pulling a sicky' - keep regular tabs on Private Eye's signal failures column if your blood pressure can handle it.
You'd be surpriaed how few people it takes to have a massive kbock on effect, when you have sick days being systematically taken by staff, often on a rotation basis and planned between large groups of a workforce it can and does mean loss of services and/or significant drop in production more than the sum of one/two/three peoples input.
BAe had this problem for decades even right up to and after big lay-offs. 'Guvvy' jobs, sickkies and also there was organised theft of tools and materials.
Over 40 years it must have cost BAe hundreds of millions all told.
Individually it doesn't look like a lot, one day here two days there but spread that over your workforce for many of them and particularly when they are an essential cog it's ridiculous the impact it can have.
I was alighting at Donny in April and the train was already late and earlier service cancelled, it was stuck at Doncaster because there was no driver for the driver change. This meant more cancellations later on.
Meanwhile, whereas pre-mandatory booking, trains into Paddington were full of people with their bikes, now there are hardly any. Good for Brompton's sales, good for the carpark providers at stations on the GWR routes; crap for those of us who would rather not drive at all.
The good news about the new GWR trains is that there are actually four carriages with bike spaces: D and K have them as well. The bad news is that each space is meant to hold two bikes, but it is impossible to get more than one in. To hang a bike from the lower hook requires a tyre/rim depth <55mm, the upper hook can't be used with 700 wheels. A truly appalling piece of design.
As a season ticket holder, the reservation system is a mess: I often don't know which train I am going to be able to travel on, so do I make multiple reservations and block everyone else? Actually the system is broken, no-one worries about it anymore and it may as well not be there.
Regarding the need to make reservations for bikes; I actually like this as is removes the worry about turning up to find that the bike storage area is already full. This means that you can buy the cheaper advanced tickets.
The problem is when they don't let you on without a reservation and they won't let you reserve less than an hour ahead. That sucks for commuters when a local train (no reservations available or required) is cancelled and the next one is a high-speed train that does require reservations.
The local trains can be fun when there's more bikes than usual. The conductors complain that there's too many bikes, but the problem is that the trains don't have sufficient bike spaces.
The problem is when they don't let you on without a reservation and they won't let you reserve less than an hour ahead. That sucks for commuters when a local train (no reservations available or required) is cancelled and the next one is a high-speed train that does require reservations.
The local trains can be fun when there's more bikes than usual. The conductors complain that there's too many bikes, but the problem is that the trains don't have sufficient bike spaces.
[/quote]
I can understand this.
The lack of bike storage on some routes is ridiculous, as they server areas around the ends of major cycle routes like the C2C.
But then, in many of the trains with a 2 bike limit you cold easily fit a few more without getting in the way or causing any trouble.
But fitting isnt the problem,we're right back to the issue in the start of the article the amount of time it takes to de-train a cyclist impacts on the timetable keeping of the train,which doesn't have the slack on suburban routes to cater for it, so train co's see accommodating more cyclists inevitably meaning more delays, they gain little to no plaudits for the former they get fined for the latter
[/quote] But fitting isnt the problem,we're right back to the issue in the start of the article the amount of time it takes to de-train a cyclist impacts on the timetable keeping of the train,which doesn't have the slack on suburban routes to cater for it, so train co's see accommodating more cyclists inevitably meaning more delays, they gain little to no plaudits for the former they get fined for the latter[/quote]
A brilliant system I saw a lot in New Zealand was that all the busses and coaches had fold out bike racks on them. I wonder if you could fit a bike rack to a train?
Er no....... Bike spaces can be reserved as soon as the trains are loaded on to ticket sales system at T minus 12 (3 months) - at midnight every day all seat (& bike) reservations (& unsold AP fares) are transferred to the 'owning' TOC - most now advise that you can book at a staffed station, or their call centre for their trains down to 10 minutes before your train arrives. CrossCountry - and others may follow - are also checking for space & booking via twitter team. Unsold AP fares for the specific TOC, are now available on several TOC phone apps (Virgin/CrossCountry &c) on the day of travel.
Booking with a website that uses MixingDeck software suite has bike reservation option included, other ticket sellers may not use MixingDeck.
Using a call centre - especially an independent retailer has you seeking a service (operator time, costs, & training) for which the seller does not get the 9% commission provided for tickets sold. There is a strong suspicion that where the operator cannot deliver the bike reservation process (or isn't getting paid for it) you will be told that no spaces are available. This will often be the response when part of a journey is made on a non-reservable service, splitting the reservations can often reveal the spaces are available but a complete set of through reservations cannot be delivered.
Yeah, I tend to agree. I am travelling with Grand Central up to Yorkshire this weekend, and they don't let you make a reservation for a bike. Instead it's first come first served, and there is only space for three bikes. I can't really chance it, with wife and son in tow and having booked specific tickets, as I'd be running the risk of being stuck there with no space for the bike. If all the reservations have gone, then fair enough, but at least you'd know in advance and can make plans accordingly.
But you are relying on the train co to honour the reservation,guess what they don't always
some of my friends had reserved space from an intermediate station on a route they'd cycled to train it back,train turned up bike space already full,train crew refused to let them board as no one was willing to get their bike off the train to free up the reserved space, so train left without them after short delay,all train co would do is offer the opportunity, as again bike space could be full, to try the next train, plus the attendant hassle of explaining to next ticket inspector why you were on the wrong train
"We operate a reservation policy (ie you have to have a reservation beforehand to bring your bike on board) ensuring everyone who wishes to travel with their bike is able to do so."
This is an odd line ... It ensures that the first come first served can travel, which isn't' everyone.
it could be vaguely true if they've calculated that they have enough capacity over a given period, say a day, for the usual number of bikes they've carried per day over say the last couple of years. So you could reserve a different train the same day.
Of course, you'd be late for work, but they don't care about that.
I don't see why they don't just have dedicated train carriages as in that glorious video of the 1950s CTC outing to Rugby. Or semi-dedicated convertible ones to cope with seasonal demand. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to invent such a thing, if we can put a ragtop Tesla into orbit around the planet Tralfamadore.
Sounds like a rather smelly BS. If you're paying for the train, you specify what goes on it, the manufacturer doesn't tell you.
As for the cycle provision, I know Cycling UK has been agitating very loudly for quite some time about this, and the booking system, but it doesn't look like they're getting much response from the train companies.
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