[Kapelmuur]

I may have missed it but I’ve not seen this discussed here.

A (non cycling) message board I belong to has been in meltdown, ‘long delays to my journey’, ‘more accidents caused by drivers staring at their speedometers’,  ‘increased pollution caused by slower traffic and car engines being inefficient at 20mph’.

Also many of them signing a protest petition despite non of them being Welsh or living in Wales!

 

Topic

[Simon E]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

I am in favour of 20mph limits, but the way it has been implemented has left Labour open to defeat, and given non progressives within Wales a wedge issue.

They don’t need a wedge issue and the more vociferous on social media and newspaper comments can make it appear very one-sided.

The benefits of 20 mph are clear to anyone who bothers to find out. I don’t know about how the government make sure everyone with a vote gets to read about it, after all political engagement is at a pretty low ebb these days. But if it’s in a manifesto then don’t be surprised if they win and it is implemented.

Do we need a referendum on the implementation of every single policy? This one has to be one of the least ‘invasive’ significant changes I can think of – after all, it’s merely asking people to drive a little slower in certain situations – yet it is subject to such vehement opposition, like LTNs. Is that a coincidence? I believe it says a lot about driver attitudes and what Carlton Reid called their ‘road ownership issues’ plus the willingness of a small number of people to vandalise signs or criminal damage (thereby adding to the cost of the scheme).

The changes to the Highway Code are slightly different and definitely were not subjected to anything remotely like a similar level of coverage.

I expect there are things they could do differently but nothing is perfect and try as you might you won’t ever please everyone. ‘Perfect is the enemy of good’. They could have done it piecemeal but that would have been far less effective and drawn far less attention; if nothing else, the noise has helped push the argument for why it is a good thing. I hope that like previous safety campaigns it eventually gets through to people that it’s a positive step in road safety, regardless of whether they actually like it or not. I’m sure there were lots of pub landlords who preferred their punters to drive home pissed-up… until they crashed into a tree or a bridge and died (or killed a whole family in another vehicle).

I suspect the map doesn’t tell the whole story. When I looked earlier in the week there were some towns with lots of yellow (e.g. Bangor, Aberystwyth) and others with sod-all showing (Llandudno and the places I know well in Mid-Wales). I’ve yet to visit those places in person since the change. As for the north-south divide then that’s a figment of someone’s over-active imagination.

[chrisonabike]

Rendel Harris wrote:

Rendel Harris wrote:

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

(one spoke to me that He voted for labour even though it was in there as the alternative parties were not a option to Him)

Wow, even God votes Labour? Cool.

He might have mixed him up with a sandal-wearing JC when Jezza was in a mellow mood. After closing time on a very dark night, maybe.

[Rendel Harris]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

(one spoke to me that He voted for labour even though it was in there as the alternative parties were not a option to Him)

Wow, even God votes Labour? Cool.

[60kg lean keen climbing machine]

I am in favour of 20mph

I am in favour of 20mph limits, but the way it has been implemented has left Labour open to defeat, and given non progressives within Wales a wedge issue.  There are so many conflicting reports and studies on this matter, many posted in response to my posts (on the left in favour of 20 limits!), but who do you believe?  It has been pushed through without a real consultation that has engaged with the wider public, yes know it was in the manifesto but so many I speak to here in Wales say it was just a short sentence within a wider context of policies that would be of benefit (one spoke to me that He voted for labour even though it was in there as the alternative parties were not a option to Him). They could have achieved the reduction in speed via expanding the 20MPH limits as they have in place historically and without the toxicity that this has caused around this issue, I believe they have now made it harder to implement wider road injuries and death reduction policies in the future.  I have even heard an old wound of the north-south divide coming up,  if you look at the map you will

 

https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/

 

see that exemptions are a lot less in the north than the south (Wrexham is large and it has 10???).  Why was the signage not done before the 17th? Why are some roads that are wide open and semi rural now down to 20MPH,  what benefit is that?  I know that it is an ongoing process and some 20 will be lifted in due course, but do it properly first time, then you will soften the blow and give less traction to the dissenters, councils and the Welsh Gov have had the time! I know that my view may be unpopular but it is what I feel is the real issue for Me, hope that that gives you an answer. 

 

[Rendel Harris]

Thanks, that was very much my

Thanks, that was very much my impression given that I knew all about it from the mainstream press long before it happened, I think people in Wales have access to the same news channels I do! Everyone I know who lives in Wales has been talking about this either negatively or positively for months…

[grumpyoldcyclist]

Most wereaware, there was

Most wereaware, there was even a leaflet drop through the door in the week leading up to the change

[grumpyoldcyclist]

No it wouldn’t. Training

No it wouldn’t. Training costs, vehicle costs, pension costs etc etc. It wouldn’t come close

[Rich_cb]

I don’t think any approach
I don’t think any approach will engage with everyone, hence 25% of people being unaware of highway code changes, but postal probably gives you the greatest reach albeit at the greatest cost.

I got a leaflet through the door, it wasn’t addressed though so if you opt out of leaflet marketing you may have missed it.

I’m hopeful that we will see the predicted results in terms of casualties as I think that will settle the debate in favour of the 20 limits.

I’m sceptical as to how realistic those predictions are.

[yupiteru]

A public consultation was

A public consultation was launched in July 2021 so I have been aware myself that things were happening since at least that time, but I did see it in the Labour and Plaid Cymru manifestos and the Tories were in full support of 20mph as well with a majority of them voting for it.  The Lib Dems wanted 15 minute cities more.

I understand most don’t read manifestos!

But in my experience most people have probably known about it for well over a year, probably longer, because July 2022 is when the legislation was passed by the Welsh Govt. and this was well publicised in Wales, so at least for over a year i would say when people found out the legislation had been passed but probably longer being aware of what was in the pipeline..

For many people it was case of being aware, but they lived in denial that it was actually going to happen, mainly down to a negative experience of politicians making promises they do not keep most likely.

 

[quiff]

I’m sure that’s true, but how

I’m sure that’s true, but how are you supposed to engage with them? To be honest, I probably found out through this site rather than any other outlet – but I think I responded to the consultation. I certainly didn’t get a leaflet through the door.

[quiff]

The argument is that the £33m

The argument is that the £33m cost is nothing compared to the projected savings from reducing accidents and encouraging active travel. Time will tell. 

EDIT: sorry, late the party. Others got there first.

[quiff]

hawkinspeter wrote:

2.9mph drop seems quite effective to me.

Interesting though that the quoted drop is from 22mph to 19mph. Presumably the routes tested include a variety of different speed limits, (not just roads that were 30 and are now 20), but it highlights the difference between the old speed limit and the average speed people were actually achieving in the real world.    

[Tom_77]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

As now Wesh labour has handed the keys to the Senedd to whoever can make political headway on this “wedge issue”,  it’s a gift to both Plaid, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems. This is a vanity project that will morph into a poison chalice,  and it isn’t just Welsh Labour who will pay the price for this, but all who live in Wales.  Partially if the party led by RT Davies gain the most traction on this issue. 

A week is a long time in politics, the next Welsh Parliament elections are in 2026. I’d be very surprised if the current kerfuffle was anything but a distant memory by then.

 

[Simon E]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

It has cost £33 millon pounds! Spend that on NHS cancer screening, childrens early years stuff,  the list goes on. Now how many lives will you save?? Wales is small in pop, so that is a big amount of money.  They should have spent less and rolled out – expanded 20MPH zones as they have been doing so historicaly.

£33 million sounds a lot but that is a couple of roundabouts, if you’re lucky.

When you consider that every road death costs £2.3 million it doesn’t look so wild. Add on the many hundreds of injuries, the vast number of collisions and single-vehicle incidents that require emergency services callouts, repairs to signs / hedges / walls / houses… that will add up to far more than £33 million per year.

And as already stated this is effectively preventative spending. It has been shown to be effective in other countries.

We’d all like to see more money spent on health, education, early years, housing etc etc but there are people in power, especially in Westminster, who have done the opposite. They have been voted back in more than once since 2010 on that basis and unfortunately the devolved government is limited in what it can do to raise its own revenue.

How much extra council tax would you be prepared to pay for these better services?

If you think that Drakeford & co. are doing such a terrible then why not stand for the Senedd yourself? Though you won’t want to waste any money so perhaps you’ll do it for free. Maybe you’ll see how small £33m is in relation to all the other expenditure required by the government, even in a country with a relatively small population.

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

33m would pay for about a 1000 Paramedics on 32k, that might help.

If you have 1,000 extra paramedics they will also need uniforms, training, ambulances to drive (which need fuel, servicing & repairs). And when they arrive at A&E the waiting times will still be just as long because you didn’t spend any additional money on doctors & nurses, HCAs, porters, maintenance teams, beds and wards, oxygen, drugs, nursing homes to reduce the bed-blocking and a thousand other things. I suspect you haven’t thought this through.

[Rendel Harris]

Thanks for that, great to

Thanks for that, great to hear real life experience and that it’s actually working. May I ask your opinion on the claim that “many people” weren’t aware of the 20 mph changes before they were implemented? From (as I’ve been reminded, a London perspective) it appeared that they were very well publicised, certainly most people in England seem to have heard of them.

[Author]

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