[Kapelmuur]

I may have missed it but I’ve not seen this discussed here.

A (non cycling) message board I belong to has been in meltdown, ‘long delays to my journey’, ‘more accidents caused by drivers staring at their speedometers’,  ‘increased pollution caused by slower traffic and car engines being inefficient at 20mph’.

Also many of them signing a protest petition despite non of them being Welsh or living in Wales!

 

Topic

[yupiteru]

20mph signs went up on the A

20mph signs went up on the A road in my village in south Wales last week and there was an instant change for the better in my opinion

 

Quieter, more relaxed, much nicer environment, in fact it was a remarkable transformation with most drivers respecting the limit and amazing how easy it is just to cross the road now!

 

Much more positive effect than I was expecting, with all the big talk from many motorists stating they will ignore it, in reality most are complying with the law or at least going much slower (as I suspected most would).

 

Should have been done sooner in my opinion.  The local ‘Nextdoor’ social media anti 20mph toxic group, have gradually began to post less since the introduction, as the fears of change slowly fades away and they realise 20mph is not everywhere as they were told by the fearmongers, and is only in built up areas and hardly makes any difference to their journeys.

 

Same when seat-belts, anti drink driving and compulsory helmets on motorbikes laws were introduced, you will always get a hardcore of cultists, who will cling on for as long as possible to an issue because largely they have nothing better to do with their time.

 

Oh and the ‘fake’ petion that can be signed by the same person multiple times so is meaningless, will be debated in the Senedd and then ‘binned’ just like the last anti 20mph petition – believe me that is what will happen.

 

20mph was clearly in the Welsh Labour manifesto and was one reason I voted for them, so it has been a democratic process (as they are the party in power in Wales) despite claims to the contrary.

 

Obviously we are all entitled to our opinion, but for me it is a positive experience so far in my locality just north of Cardiff.

 

The fuss will soon die down and people will wonder what they were worried about and hopefully direct their energy towards important issues effecting our country.

 

[hawkinspeter]

The cost is pretty much

The cost is pretty much irrelevant compared to the estimated savings. Paying £33m once for saving £92m every year is beyond a good deal.

I can understand complaints about how it’s being done and obviously motorists generally aren’t going to like being made to slow down, but the cost if the exercise is hardly worth discussing if it brings about that level of saving.

There’s plenty of other places with 20mph limits and so far, they seem to work really well without evidence of the down-sides that opponents predicted. I hope it ends up working out well for Wales.

[chrisonabike]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

It has cost £33 millon pounds! Spend that on NHS cancer screening, childrens early years stuff,  the list goes on. Now how many lives will you save?? Wales is small in pop, so that is a big amount of money.  They should have spent less and rolled out – expanded 20MPH zones as they have been doing so historicaly.

Well that is a reasonable question.  Do you have the answer?  How much will 33 million (once) do when you put it in to the NHS and how many lives will it save/improve?  (Assuming you can just get it from one budget and stick it elsewhere of course).

Will it accomplish more than this (one off) spend?

I think you could use up quite a few of those pounds just getting your answer above the confidence level of “but it’s obvious!” or “but it stands to reason!”.  Tempting though it is to propose policy on “it’s common sense to me!” we should probably do a bit of due dilligence.

I mean, if it’s just the money you could then question why are we putting far more millions into road-building (even in Wales with their new plans this will continue) which is a net cost to everyone (once everything’s summed) and certainly not good for health…

If your point is “but that’s what we see in the media!” – well, alas.  I recall some other slogans about large sums of money and the NHS too.  We’re coming up to elections and the Nasty Party clearly feels it needs to make its image a bit more striking.  And the other side doesn’t want to be left too far behind either…

[Sniffer]

Careful you might conflate a

Careful you might conflate a one-off capital cost with an annual cost.

And, the full cost of a paramedic is alot more that just the wage of the person doing the job.

[60kg lean keen climbing machine]

AidanR wrote:

AidanR wrote:

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

It has cost £33 millon pounds! Spend that on NHS cancer screening, childrens early years stuff,  the list goes on. Now how many lives will you save?? Wales is small in pop, so that is a big amount of money.  They should have spent less and rolled out – expanded 20MPH zones as they have been doing so historicaly.

£33m might sound like a lot of money to an individual, but it’s 0.15% of the Welsh annual budget.

33m would pay for about a 1000 Paramedics on 32k, that might help.

[Rendel Harris]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

It has cost £33 millon pounds!

The average fatal RTA in the UK in 2020, according to Statista, cost the exchequer £2.12M. The average serious RTA cost more than £246,000. So it really doesn’t have to prevent very many incidents to have paid for itself, and then once it’s broken even in terms of saving such costs it will continue to provide a net benefit to the exchequer, saving funds that can then be spent on health, education etc. Additionally, whilst £33M is unquestionably a lot of money, it’s less than the cost of a single mile of new motorway.

[hawkinspeter]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

It has cost £33 millon pounds! Spend that on NHS cancer screening, childrens early years stuff,  the list goes on. Now how many lives will you save?? Wales is small in pop, so that is a big amount of money.  They should have spent less and rolled out – expanded 20MPH zones as they have been doing so historicaly.

It looks like the return on the £33 million is pretty good though (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/15/wales-is-bringing-in-a-20mph-speed-limit-why-and-what-will-happen):

Opponents say the scheme will cost the Welsh economy £4.5bn. Is that true?

The figure comes from a Welsh government report, which makes it awkward for Labour. The cost is for a 30-year period and the government now says it may not be accurate as it takes into account the impact of every single journey – even if it is just a trip to, say, the local park. It prefers to highlight the cost of introducing 20mph – £32m. It says the policy could save the NHS £92m every year so the initial outlay will swiftly be covered.

Financially, that makes it look like a no-brainer.

[Sniffer]

I am a bit confused by your

I am a bit confused by your stance on this.  I don’t live in Wales and I wish the Nation I live in had adopted this policy when it had the chance, but at least for now, that didn’t happen.

What is bothering you most?

• The concept
• The way it was implented
• The fact that it was a Labour administration that implemented it.
• Or that cars were not slowed by more than 2.9mph

Slowing and removing cars from places that pedestrians (never mind cyclists) are vulnerable will be the 21st Century equivalent of the smoking ban.  Lots of noise and complaints before it happens.  Once it is in place, nobody will seriously argue to remove it.

Devolution is the same, certainly in Scotland.  There is no serious political force that looking to remove it.

[AidanR]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

It has cost £33 millon pounds! Spend that on NHS cancer screening, childrens early years stuff,  the list goes on. Now how many lives will you save?? Wales is small in pop, so that is a big amount of money.  They should have spent less and rolled out – expanded 20MPH zones as they have been doing so historicaly.

£33m might sound like a lot of money to an individual, but it’s 0.15% of the Welsh annual budget.

[60kg lean keen climbing machine]

chrisonatrike wrote:

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

This is a vanity project that will morph into a poison chalice,  and it isn’t just Welsh Labour who will pay the price for this, but all who live in Wales.  Partially if the party led by RT Davies gain the most traction on this issue.

Why is this a vanity project?  That sort of accusation would be more appropriate if they’d built another motorway…

– It’s about not just “saving lives” but actually preventing accidents (more time to think / react).
 – It’s already been shown to have an impact – without even physically changing the road infra OR deploying hundreds of extra police!  Granted, not an amazing one in terms of average speed but that is not the point.  Which is having people driving slower where the limits have changed.
 – The fact that at national level the Conservatives have very recently done a U-turn on “maybe we should consider the impact of all this driving”* and are now playing up “war on the hard-pressed motorist” isn’t the fault of those who commissioned studies and made this happen starting several years back.

* Their national policies have trended – very cautiously – towards “careful now!” with mass motoring (or the pollution from it), and a few other changes e.g. Road Safety Investigation Board, a few more beans for active travel etc.

It has cost £33 millon pounds! Spend that on NHS cancer screening, childrens early years stuff,  the list goes on. Now how many lives will you save?? Wales is small in pop, so that is a big amount of money.  They should have spent less and rolled out – expanded 20MPH zones as they have been doing so historicaly.

[chrisonabike]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

This is a vanity project that will morph into a poison chalice,  and it isn’t just Welsh Labour who will pay the price for this, but all who live in Wales.  Partially if the party led by RT Davies gain the most traction on this issue.

Why is this a vanity project?  That sort of accusation would be more appropriate if they’d built another motorway…

– It’s about not just “saving lives” but actually preventing accidents (more time to think / react).
 – It’s already been shown to have an impact – without even physically changing the road infra OR deploying hundreds of extra police!  Granted, not an amazing one in terms of average speed but that is not the point.  Which is having people driving slower where the limits have changed.
 – The fact that at national level the Conservatives have very recently done a U-turn on “maybe we should consider the impact of all this driving”* and are now playing up “war on the hard-pressed motorist” isn’t the fault of those who commissioned studies and made this happen starting several years back.

* Their national policies have trended – very cautiously – towards “careful now!” with mass motoring (or the pollution from it), and a few other changes e.g. Road Safety Investigation Board, a few more beans for active travel etc.

[60kg lean keen climbing machine]

I don’t doubt the maths, but

I don’t doubt the maths, but that is not the point, as most people will not be interested in having statistics and the like thrown at them. They are just interested in the tangible, what they see and feel.  Yes if roads become less frenetic and calmer, then they may mellow and accept  the new normal,  but if this is not something you can rely on.  Partially if this is used for political gain.  You can be in favour or against, but using 9 ish words in a manifesto and then a pretty shonky consultation – survey to gain support to go ahead, this is what I hear all the time when this issue is raised.  Is that true, I don’t know but as with so many issues in our political landscape today,  that is not often what people are interested in.  All they have experienced and felt was something poorly implemented and which then failed to bring a big chunk of the electorate on side,  That’s the problem.

 

[hawkinspeter]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

Wow, 2.9mph drop in average speed,  I hope it was worth it? As now Wesh labour has handed the keys to the Senedd to whoever can make political headway on this “wedge issue”,  it’s a gift to both Plaid, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems. This is a vanity project that will morph into a poison chalice,  and it isn’t just Welsh Labour who will pay the price for this, but all who live in Wales.  Partially if the party led by RT Davies gain the most traction on this issue. 

2.9mph drop seems quite effective to me. As I live in England, I don’t have a strong opinion on this change, though anything that reins in out-of-control drivers generally gets a thumbs up from me. The crucial point though, apart from the so-called political wedging is how many lives will it save? Let’s not forget one of the main reasons that this has been seen as necessary.

[Steve K]

60kg lean keen climbing

60kg lean keen climbing machine wrote:

Wow, 2.9mph drop in average speed,  I hope it was worth it? As now Wesh labour has handed the keys to the Senedd to whoever can make political headway on this “wedge issue”,  it’s a gift to both Plaid, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems. This is a vanity project that will morph into a poison chalice,  and it isn’t just Welsh Labour who will pay the price for this, but all who live in Wales.  Partially if the party led by RT Davies gain the most traction on this issue.

It’s not the average speed drop that matters; it is the amount of time drivers are driving fast. 

[60kg lean keen climbing machine]

RMF wrote:

RMF wrote:

https://nation.cymru/news/new-research-details-astonishing-impact-of-wales-20mph-speed-limit-after-first-week/ An interesting article, which shows the immediate impact of the changes to speed limits. Scientific data backs this up, not the crap spouted by RT Davies and co

Wow, 2.9mph drop in average speed,  I hope it was worth it? As now Wesh labour has handed the keys to the Senedd to whoever can make political headway on this “wedge issue”,  it’s a gift to both Plaid, the Conservatives and the Lib Dems. This is a vanity project that will morph into a poison chalice,  and it isn’t just Welsh Labour who will pay the price for this, but all who live in Wales.  Partially if the party led by RT Davies gain the most traction on this issue. 

 

[Author]

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