[Kapelmuur]

I may have missed it but I’ve not seen this discussed here.

A (non cycling) message board I belong to has been in meltdown, ‘long delays to my journey’, ‘more accidents caused by drivers staring at their speedometers’,  ‘increased pollution caused by slower traffic and car engines being inefficient at 20mph’.

Also many of them signing a protest petition despite non of them being Welsh or living in Wales!

 

Topic

[bikeman01]

On the right side I see a

On the right side I see a barrier. On the left, none, but lets see the stats on cars that lost control on this arrow straight piece of road which resulted in injury to pedestrians and then compare it to the casualties caused by pedestrians stepping out into the road without looking. 

[bikeman01]

quiff wrote:

quiff wrote:

I’m not denying your experience, but I’m a bit surprised to hear that. Can’t think of obvious sensible alternatives to Western Ave. But maybe satnavs do. Did you not get displaced traffic before when the limit was 30, but congestion meant nobody was even doing 20?

A lot of the comments here are from the armchair warriors adopting the 30mph bad, 20mph good, just like I expect decisions are made by local authorities.

Change usually has unexpected consequences and these shouldn’t be dismissed just because they arent expected.

In the case of rat running, I would have thought this would have been expected and obvious. Think about it, the enforcement of speed limits is typically on main roads, if these are reduced to 20mph along with neighbouring residential areas, drivers will try to avoid them by rat running through the residential areas which they know are unlilkely to have enforcement and they can exceed 20mph. Yes rat running happened when all roads were 30mph but there was little advantage to do so since you couldnt realistically exceed 30mph on residential streets. The situation now is reversed.

It is also the case that many main roads within Swansea are very congested and there is now every chance of making better progress by cutting though residential areas. Why bother joining the queue if you know it will never speed up.

[quiff]

Yeah, that’s why I’m confused

Yeah, that’s why I’m confused. The 20mph section of Western Ave is very short (circled below) and, because of the river, public parks etc in the area (and therefore lack of surrounding roads), it seems to me you’d have to take quite a long detour to avoid it. But I’m sure I’m guilty of just thinking of routes I take. Just because I don’t have the imagination to do it, doesn’t mean others aren’t!    

[Rich_cb]

I wish!
I wish!

Unfortunately a lot of the roads were LTN’ed before LTNs were invented and mine wasn’t one of them!

[David9694]

so despite the pro car PM,

so despite the pro car PM, Dorset and Southampton councils have got some 20 mph plans on the go.  The desperation from drivers to avoid this is, well, interesting.  I guess on this one, lies and bluster is all that drivers have.  

But best of all, drivers actually think this is about them!

Here’s a round up. 

it’s not necessary 

this usually has it that the traffic is so bad all the time so it won’t make any difference. 

great, so you’ve no objection 

drivers won’t obey it / the police won’t enforce it 

sometimes admissions around driver behaviour are bundlesd into the attempted objection. I remind them of the speed cameras and vans – you know, the ones that are only there to rip drivers off. 

it will make pollution worse

Again an admission of an existing problem is implicit here.  Driver myth from pre-catalyser days. 

it will increase road danger

this is the constantly watching the Speedo argument  and another admission that cars are dangerous (don’t forget that we normally have to maintain the fiction that the 4-5 daily road deaths are all individual tragedies, etc)

cars can’t go at 20 mph without incurring damage to clutch and gears

straight up driver myth – possibly from days of double de-clutching etc 

I can understand it outside schools 

if you were that keen, you’d be doing it now and we might not be having this conversation 

[mattw]

Rich_cb wrote:

Rich_cb wrote:

The problem is that 20mph limits on that particular road lead to more traffic on nearby residential roads including mine. If the dual carriageway is busy and you can only travel at 20mph on it why not switch to the residential roads which have the same limit. In general I’m a supporter of the 20mph limits and my road has had one for quite a while. The default limit switch appears to have had quite a few unintended consequences though.

You need an LTN !

I think that it will be a year before we can judge TBH – look for a monitoring report in September 2024.

[mattw]

Most of Western Avenue,

Most of Western Avenue, Cardiff – that road – is marked as a Stage 3 exception, with a TRO in preparation.

The only bit to remain at 20mph looks like being the short stretch which passes the University and the Cathedral.

My general view of 20mph is – yes inside community boundaries, but consider classified roads (As and Bs) for an exception.

[Rich_cb]

If you look at where the A48
If you look at where the A48 comes round to join Western avenue there’s a large residential area bounded by those roads and Llandaf/Cardiff road.

At peak times, when there is significant congestion, people have always cut through that area but now far more people are cutting through at all times, the speed limits are largely the same so it’s now probably quicker to cut through the residential areas than follow the arterial roads. I suspect this is Sat Nav driven but it’s definitely got worse since the speed limit changes.

[quiff]

Rich_cb wrote:

Rich_cb wrote:

The problem is that 20mph limits on that particular road lead to more traffic on nearby residential roads including mine.

If the dual carriageway is busy and you can only travel at 20mph on it why not switch to the residential roads which have the same limit.

In general I’m a supporter of the 20mph limits and my road has had one for quite a while.

The default limit switch appears to have had quite a few unintended consequences though.

I’m not denying your experience, but I’m a bit surprised to hear that. Can’t think of obvious sensible alternatives to Western Ave. But maybe satnavs do. Did you not get displaced traffic before when the limit was 30, but congestion meant nobody was even doing 20?

[chrisonabike]

On “but we had dual

On “but we had dual carriageways – reducing the speed just doesn’t compute”.

I don’t know if there are longer term plans but hopefully this would be a part of a more general traffic reduction strategy.  (Sadly – sometimes change has to be “too much, too fast” else nothing happens, but can’t be “just get it all over with at once”).

Here’s an example of what this might look like.  But this was probably only possible as part of a longer-term strategy.  Perhaps we just can’t get *directly* there from here?

[chrisonabike]

I don’t disagree there’s a

I don’t disagree there’s a perceptual effect.  Anyone can confirm this – just spend say 15 minutes at “free flow speed” on a motorway, then come off it.  Now driving along at the same 30mph you were making good progress at before you were on the motorway feels waaaay slow.

As I keep repeating – it’s clear to almost everyone that just changing a number isn’t a great way to change speeds.

However – the “but it feels odd” – it’s just change.  It will become normal – people learn.

Why are we making the change?  To reduce speeds.  Why do we think that changing a number does anything?  Well, there’s a range of evidence showing it does.  No it certainly doesn’t mean that everyone will do 20mph.  But speeds generally come down (and IIRC including the higher speeds, which are associated with much increased risk of serious injuries / death).

[chrisonabike]

David9694 wrote:

David9694 wrote:

The Tory opposition leader: “Our position is simple: there are much more important things to be focusing on than new measures to restrict car users even further, ” and the sheer brass neck “which inevitably negatively impacts the most vulnerable.”

Presumably they’re feeling vulnerable themselves – to the effects of angry drivers voters…

[stonojnr]

There is something about
There is something about speed perception on dual carriageways that makes lower speed limits require more concentration though.

I can happily drive at 20mph on a residential road, 30mph on neighbouring roads, i know the right gear & revs combination that I know what speeds im doing without constantly checking.

But they had roadworks with a 30mph limit on the A12 recently, working on the side of the road, so both lanes were still open.

It was much harder for some reason to keep to that 30mph, without constantly checking the speedo. Didn’t help the majority of traffic was zipping by you at 60mph still.

But you always felt you were going too slowly, when you weren’t.

[David9694]

Ah, nuts the snowflake BE has

Ah, nuts the snowflake BE has removed comments by midday – too many drivers shitting the bed, I guess. 

The Tory opposition leader: “Our position is simple: there are much more important things to be focusing on than new measures to restrict car users even further, ” and the sheer brass neck “which inevitably negatively impacts the most vulnerable.”

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/23845995.council-early-stages-bring-20mph-speed-limits/#comments-anchor

[AlsoSomniloquism]

The Western Way had been

The Western Way had been 30mph for awhile and is mainly single carriageway albeit with two lanes of traffic each direction. So they decided not to exempt it which would be the local council’s decision. 

As for the knock-on for Eastern Way, I’m guessing they didn’t want 40mph traffic suddenly encountering 20mph traffic so dropped that one, which again sounds more like the local councils decision rather then the Senedd’s. As it is almost a motorway with an hard shoulder and slip roads, it is a poor decision. 

[Author]

Replies