“A young mother cycling on pavement for safety is anti-social behaviour?”: Police slammed for fining woman with child seat to tackle “cycling related anti-social behaviour”

 They can't just stop anyone at random and demand details....

Unless of course, you are a black youth and then, anything goes where the Police are concerned. 

Reasonable grounds for suspicion there then...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y

Depends perhaps whether there is a strong local gang culture with frequent black on black stabbings, and *some* local black kids have a huge attitude problem.
These things are nuanced and there are historical reasons why the local community might be suspicious of the police, but when the local culture is to refer to the police as "da Fedz" and many kids carry "knafs", trying to police that area for the good of everyone is often a thankless task.
Example: I'm a cyclist, if I see someone flagrantly jumping a red light they're no friend of mine and I hope they get prosecuted.
If I'm black and I don't carry a knife in an area of high knife crime, maybe I ought to be glad when a copper respectfully asks me what I'm up to, and if I'm carrying.
If you'll pardon the pun, it cuts both ways.

Vo2Maxi wrote:

Depends perhaps whether there is a strong local gang culture with frequent black on black stabbings, and *some* local black kids have a huge attitude problem. These things are nuanced and there are historical reasons why the local community might be suspicious of the police, but when the local culture is to refer to the police as "da Fedz" and many kids carry "knafs", trying to police that area for the good of everyone is often a thankless task. Example: I'm a cyclist, if I see someone flagrantly jumping a red light they're no friend of mine and I hope they get prosecuted. If I'm black and I don't carry a knife in an area of high knife crime, maybe I ought to be glad when a copper respectfully asks me what I'm up to, and if I'm carrying. If you'll pardon the pun, it cuts both ways.

I've got the impression that people don't like to be continually stopped and accused of whatever rubbish the police happen to think of at the time, just because of the colour of their skin.

Well maybe that specific community, which actually specifically has this problem and is happy to slag off the police at every opportunity, ought to be equally as determined to stop these appalling crimes? I see lots of complaining from that community, yet very little tangible, constructive efforts to stop it by working with law enforcement, or indeed by any other means. In the main these are feral, fatherless kids with no role models, ripe for picking by gangs.
This is a huge subculture thing (including the Drill music etc which goes with it) which has been allowed to proliferate out of wishing not to offend sensibilities. You could pretty well superimpose the child abuse crimes in Rochdale over this scenario, different crimes, same neglect.
So bluntly, if the colour of your skin vastly increases the likelihood of you being involved in knife crime, expect to be vastly suspected and investigated. It ain't rocket science.

Vo2Maxi wrote:

If I'm black and I don't carry a knife in an area of high knife crime, maybe I ought to be glad when a copper respectfully asks me what I'm up to, and if I'm carrying.

Certainly in South London the police are not renowned for the respectful ways in which they approach black youths; I see dozens of occasions every year where they speak to them in ways that, if they addressed me in such a fashion, would see them facing formal complaints. But of course as I'm white, middleaged, middle class and well spoken, they never do.

As for "ought to be glad", are you for real? Would you be glad if whilst going about your lawful occasions you were stopped multiple times a day (this is no exaggeration), asked to account for your actions and body searched on the basis of your age and skin colour? 

Every phone camera social media clip I see on the news, I see an initially calm situation escalated by a deeply reluctant "stopee", refusing to cooperate in any way.
I have no doubt there are insensitive or even racist coppers, and they need to be properly dealt with (certainly sacked if basically racist), but much more than that, I see a constant resentment and obstructive behaviour. In those circumstances, what does a copper do, just let you go? Well no, and then it ultimately turns into an arrest situation and quickly turns ugly.
So anyway, as a self-professed privileged white person (apparently from south London), do you have any ideas on how decades of babyfather and resentful fatherless, role model-less boys might be turned around?
And do you think that community will ever take any responsibility or offer any tangible solutions when it is now a deeply ingrained subculture thing? And will you just be endlessly sympathetic as everyone else is the problem, including apparently yourself, being so privileged?
I notice that you haven't looked at both sides of this at all, only at one? I see all the gestures of reconciliation coming from one side and not the other, and that simply doesn't work.
It may surprise you to know that it pains me deeply to see such community unrest, but blaming someone or something else all the time does no one any favours.

Vo2Maxi wrote:

Every phone camera social media clip I see on the news, I see an initially calm situation escalated by a deeply reluctant "stopee", refusing to cooperate in any way.

I'm guessing you only see what you want to see...

https://road.cc/content/news/police-officer-sacked-after-assaulting-blac...

Picking out ONE (and no doubt there'll be others) example of bad policing doesn't justify sitting on your hands. You have totally avoided offering any suggestions as to how the problem might be dealt with. You have also totally ignored the points I raised.
So tell me how that does any good at all, or is the whole situation destined to just disappear down the plughole of social unrest and destruction?
In reality that's how this is all allowed to proliferate.
There are uncomfortable truths, and until they are confronted they will continue to fester.

Black communities want to be protected from crime and policed fairly just like any other community. While things are improving slowly the last 70 years or so won't be forgotton quickly and so the onus is on the police and the justice system to prove they are treating black people (or women, cyclists, working class etc) equally.

They also have to avoid going too far in the other direction and ignore crimes in a particular community for fear of seeming racist. As someone else said, I wouldn't want to be a police officer.

Yeah, it was me who said in an earlier post about not wanting to be a copper! 😂 But many others have said the same of course, and with good reason.
We have indeed come a long way thankfully, in terms of fair policing for all?
But I stand by my point, which is that all the efforts to reconcile seem to be coming from one direction, and all the complaining - and lack of any constructive suggestions - seems to be coming from the other direction.
There's right and wrong on both sides of this divide, but one side never admits that and only complains. That cannot be right, and until that attitude subsides there can be no progress unfortunately.
There are large subculture issues too which will take years to deal with (mentioned earlier), and again, no recognition of that.

Vo2Maxi wrote:

all the efforts to reconcile seem to be coming from one direction, and all the complaining - and lack of any constructive suggestions - seems to be coming from the other direction...one side never admits that and only complains

Yeah, them wonderful white folks are doing their best but all those blacks do is whine. Ungrateful bastards. Jesus, do you actually listen to yourself?

Oh dear, trying to shut me down with personal attacks?
Try having a proper debate for once, rather than just wheeling out your "superior moral high ground" which actually doesn't exist.

Vo2Maxi wrote:

Oh dear, trying to shut me down with personal attacks?

Nothing personal about it, you have made a number of blatantly racist statements, including addressing the black population as a single homogenous community, claiming that black children are "feral", stating that particular crimes are specific to the allegedly homogenous black community, stating that said community is always complaining, that they will not take any responsibility, and that the only attempts at reconciliation come from the white population whilst all the black population do is complain.

If you don't like being called a racist, try not being a racist, works a treat.

Do *you* have any ideas on how decades of babyfather and resentful fatherless, role model-less boys might be turned around?

If so lots would be interested to hear them in the UK, regardless of ethnic origin. Sir Bradley Wiggins for one...

I've already said, if only you could read. But there's none so blind...

Vo2Maxi wrote:

I've already said, if only you could read. But there's none so blind...

Must be my eyes, but in a re-check of your previous the only other positive suggestion I can see is (again summary) "[the community / black people] ought to be equally as determined to stop these appalling crimes ...  tangible, constructive efforts to stop it by working with law enforcement, or indeed by any other means".

I'm pretty sure that someone in London (or indeed most places with deprivation) can easily point to a bunch of community projects working with local youth (and the police) and trying to divert people to better paths.  And people standing up saying "it's not cool to join gangs or get involved in drugs".  Such good work is much less salient than stabbings though.

I would agree with you on many of the nuances you allude to (long-standing structural problem, the need to deal with racism in the police force).  I do think there are commonalities with other situations of poverty and deprivation.  It's hard to break out from wherever that arises because once trust is lost between local people and the authorities people are disincentivised to work with the other or criticise their own group.

However there is something different about the difficulties black people face, because our systems - not just the police - are systematically racist (as inquiries keep finding).

Thanks for your reasoned and non-hysterical post, hopefully you won't be accused of racism for it.
I abhor racism, which to my mind is treating people differently, wishing them harm, denying them life chances or opportunities, denying them access, based on race, religion or colour.
There are cultural differences, lifestyle differences, national characteristics even, which enrich us all? Even amongst Europeans, which I embrace.
I think there are also misunderstandings around those, which can pass either way, and yes even ignorance, which similarly can travel in either direction. Even postcode gangs themselves are a form of "racism", where you exclude others because of where they come from. Every community carries its own racist tropes, but clearly if you are 3.5% of the population it hits you hardest. I certainly don't think everything in the garden is rosy but I think there's far less actual racism than is made out? The whole country taking the knee because 1% of a football crowd make monkey noises and throw bananas on the pitch is a case in point. Capture the lowlifes on CCTV and publicly prosecute and ban them, but let's stop wringing our hands over it.

I think you may have misunderstood me...

Quite frankly if you aren't identifiable the moment someone sees you, hears your voice, merely reads your name - if you're in the majority, mostly interacting with people like you ... you're not going to see a problem.  So when you see people getting angry and hurt on the news it's going to seem a bit weird.  "Touchy lot" you might think.

Equally if people passing judgement and treating you differently has been with you since an early age (or just seeing your parents getting twitchy) I bet this will become incredibly salient.  Especially if you are aware a few of those times might lead to abuse or even violence.  Even though most of the minutes you spend on earth will not feature this.

Handwringing may be one thing - what does me being aware of that and typing this do?  Yes - racism is among people everywhere, of every ethnicity I've encountered in my limited travels.

However I'm not content at all with "only 1% of a football crowd" calling some other group non-human.  In public.  I think that's a big deal.  It's not "bantz", it's really unpleasant and the tip of the iceberg.  We know it leads further.  And when racism gets organised - and it's always eagerly utilitised by those wishing to influence groups - we see some of the worst of humanity.  And lasting, structural divisions between people which ultimately even have negative impacts on the majority.

None of that should stop us identifying issues in particular groups.  If you want change though you ought to ask "why?" - which often doesn't give you a snappy answer and might even end up involving you in any solution.

I get the structural, I institutional racism thing but I think it's overplayed. And if you keep being told you have no life chances on all channels and you'll always be discriminated against, then your lack of fulfilment might well become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
As for 14yr old kids, and their experiences of institutional racism, I don't get that? Black kids from London estates outdo their white counterparts in school now, and proportionally more of them go to Uni as well. So how has their lack of life chances impacted them at that point when they are still vastly more likely to stab or be stabbed by, their peers?

Vo2Maxi wrote:

I get the structural, I institutional racism thing but I think it's overplayed.

Again I bet how that looks strongly depends on whether it affects you.  There certainly seems to be a consensus that saying "can't we just ignore race then we'll get along" won't make it better (e.g. here).

Vo2Maxi wrote:

And if you keep being told you have no life chances on all channels and you'll always be discriminated against, then your lack of fulfilment might well become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Expectations are certainly a thing, think I read something with numbers on that in one of the Freakanomics books (good read BTW).

Vo2Maxi wrote:

As for 14yr old kids, and their experiences of institutional racism, I don't get that? Black kids from London estates outdo their white counterparts in school now, and proportionally more of them go to Uni as well. So how has their lack of life chances impacted them at that point when they are still vastly more likely to stab or be stabbed by, their peers?

IIRC there are some folks on here who aren't white so perhaps we'll get to hear some other thoughts. (For most posters I've no idea, just going with the odds e.g. most likely white, male and probably older!)

Whatever the reason the odds of interaction with the criminal justice system are significantly greater as a black youth than would be expected from proportion of population.

Vo2Maxi wrote:

The whole country taking the knee because 1% of a football crowd make monkey noises and throw bananas on the pitch is a case in point. Capture the lowlifes on CCTV and publicly prosecute and ban them, but let's stop wringing our hands over it.

A very small proportion of a football crowd behaves disgracefully, Vo2Maxi, "Few bad apples, no big deal".

Very small proportion of black people involved in crime, also Vo2Maxi: "'They' have a problem their kids are feral they won't admit  they have a problem they won't do anything while only white people make any effort." 

Well, you inspired me - if my eyes are bad I should practice reading, so how about a bit of historical perspective?

Wikipedia's crime in London over the last 30 years (also has a section on race and crime and even bicycle theft!)

Homicide in England and Wales since 1898.

It certainly seems less violent than in mediaeval times (comparison's a bit apples and Apple Macs though).

I disagree. we regularly see news media headlines like black kid stabs another in London but the headline black community leaders work with kids to reduce knife crime just won't get the clicks so they don't bother to report it.

A few years ago Glasgow was the knife crime capital of Europe but were the regular stabbings ever headline news? No, because they were white and they weren't in London maybe?

As for subculture issues like drill music for instance, if you go to a crap school on a poor estates and all you are surrounded by is poverty and crime and the only people in your area with money and respect sell drugs in a gang what else are you going to rap about? Rap music has been criticized by the media for years for inciting violence but the same media never bats an eyelid when a white star like arnold schwarzenegger kills multiple people in a movie. Strangely when it was just a black thing no one cared but as soon as middle class white kids started to listen to it suddenly it became a problem.

What we should be asking is what sort of society have we created that these kids (of all races) have grown up in that has caused the music they make themselves to be filled with violence, crime, gangs and drugs.

You're wrong, and I'll tell you why you are wrong. I read/watch all major news channels and I use the BBC as a benchmark. No one could be more sympathetic than the BBC towards ethnic communities, and that's good. They have no need to rely on clicks. I don't doubt that there are various community projects to help these kids (and I applaud them) but the big voices (Lenny Henry would be one) are only ever heard to criticise the authorities. All criticism is one way. A bit of refreshing honesty wouldn't go amiss, some reality. Because things that go wrong aren't always someone else's fault?
You're also wrong about Glasgow, it has been well reported, along with the reasons why.

I cannot abide watching the BBC. The news is very one sided, they do not give a balanced view. Most of their programmes are the same. It infuriates me that I am forced to pay for a license for something that I refuse to watch or listen to any more.

My opinion.

One sided in what way Phil?

Vo2Maxi wrote:

the big voices (Lenny Henry would be one) are only ever heard to criticise the authorities. All criticism is one way.

In just the same way, that nice Mr Putin gets no credit for the excellent condition of Russia's motorways.

When Lenny Henry calls out racism, it's because he's experienced it for 60 years and it's not changed nearly enough. If a "national treasure" is still having to deal with it, perhaps this is a problem that you're failing to comprehend.

Vo2Maxi wrote:

You're also wrong about Glasgow, it has been well reported, along with the reasons why.

I think you've missed the point here. Between the razor gang violence of the 60s and the fair success in reduction over the last decade, there was hardly any coverage of your common or garden stabbing in Glasgow. It was just one of those things, presumed endemic to the culture.

I notice also that despite the favourable coverage (and good statistics) over a number of years, there's not been a rush to emulate the achievement elsewhere in the UK. Could that be because in some places politicians can't be seen to be "soft on crime" or are marketing themselves as the strong leader we really need (S Braverman)?

And when was the last copycat killing based on a Terminator film?