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news
Victoria_Street_West,_Grimsby_-_DSC07296.JPG“Stick it up your a*se”, 82-year-old tells council officer after being fined £100 for cycling in town centre
An 82-year-old cyclist has said that he would rather go to jail than pay a fine he received for breaching a Public Space Protection Order (PSPO) banning cycling in Grimsby town centre.
Barrie Enderby was leaving a bank on Victoria Street in the Lincolnshire town last week when he was issued with a £100 fine by a council officer for riding his bike in a prohibited area, GrimsbyLive reports.
In 2019 Grimsby became one of a number of towns to impose a cycling ban in pedestrianised zones, using a Public Space Protection Order. The PSPO, which North East Lincolnshire Council claims was introduced to deal with nuisance, anti-social and dangerous behaviour in the town centre and along Cleethorpes seafront, was extended in July and will now last until 2025.
Over 1,000 fixed penalty notices have been issued since 2019, the bulk of which have been for cycling on Victoria Street South and walking dogs along the main beach in Cleethorpes.
> Bedford cyclists protest ‘discriminatory’ town centre bike ban
Active travel charity Cycling UK has long been a prominent critic of PSPOs, which it claims have the effect of criminalising cycling.
“Some councils have used PSPOs as a geographically defined version of an ASBO to restrict the use of public space and criminalise behaviour not normally regarded as illegal,” Duncan Dollimore, Cycling UK’s head of campaigns, has previously said.
Dollimore’s view was echoed this weekend by pensioner Barrie Enderby, who told GrimsbyLive that he has so far refused to pay the fine issued to him for cycling on Victoria Street South, which he argues only serves to discourage people from riding their bikes into town.
“I was biking through town last Thursday, October 6, locked my bike up and went into a bank on Victoria Street. As I came out, one of the council officers stopped me and said I’d be fined £100 for riding it in the street,” the 82-year-old explained.
“I’ve been riding my bike around here for 40 years and have never once been fined. When he gave it to me I told him, ‘stick it up your arse’.
“I’m more annoyed about it because my biking is what keeps me going.”
> “Why is cycling discouraged?” asks councillor as Stafford introduces ban when renewing its PSPO
Enderby continued: “When he told me it would be £100 I was quite frustrated, I’ve never had a problem when out on my bike before. I’ve seen all sorts going on around town in the past and they chose to give me a ticket.
“I asked where the sign was to say you couldn’t bike here and he pointed at the concrete. I couldn’t believe it, you wouldn’t be looking there for the rules would you? That annoyed me even more.
“If he had just asked me not to ride my bike I would have understood and stopped out of respect, but I never got the chance,” he claimed.
“I won’t be paying it, I’d rather go to prison than give them £100. I’ve not got £100 spare to give them, that’s for sure.
“I don’t see why I should get penalised, but all these people speeding about on scooters seem to get no punishment. In my opinion, they’re much worse than a cyclist.
“If I’m honest, I feel hard done by and I now worry about where I can and can’t go on my bike. I told some of my friends about it and they said I was just easy pickings for them.
“I’ll still go out on my bike, but nowhere near town now. However, this has left me wondering whether it’s safe to go out on my bike at all.”
> Bedford cycling ban to remain despite consultation showing most people want it scrapped
Ron Shepherd, North East Lincolnshire Council’s portfolio holder for safer and stronger communities, defended the decision to issue Mr Enderby with a fine and told GrimsbyLive that “if someone feels they have been wrongly given a fixed penalty notice (FPN) they can challenge it, the details are on the ticket”.
“Shoppers, businesses and people working in the town centre often complain about nuisance cycling in the pedestrian zone,” the Conservative politician continued.
“The Grimsby Telegraph has published several stories in recent years where people have raised concerns about the problem. We recently consulted on renewing the Public Space Protection Order, which among other things prohibits cycling in the pedestrian area, and responders supported it.
“There’s no need to cycle in the pedestrian area – Bethlehem Street and Osborne Street are literally a few metres away and run parallel to it. Enforcement officers routinely patrol the town centre and there are signs to make it clear that cycling is banned. Those who choose not to pay the £100 fixed penalty notice, find themselves facing a larger bill in court.”
Ryan joined road.cc in December 2021 and since then has kept the site’s readers and listeners informed and enthralled (well at least occasionally) on news, the live blog, and the road.cc Podcast. After boarding a wrong bus at the world championships and ruining a good pair of jeans at the cyclocross, he now serves as road.cc’s senior news writer. Before his foray into cycling journalism, he wallowed in the equally pitiless world of academia, where he wrote a book about Victorian politics and droned on about cycling and bikes to classes of bored students (while taking every chance he could get to talk about cycling in print or on the radio). He can be found riding his bike very slowly around the narrow, scenic country lanes of Co. Down.
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34 comments
For a place like in the article photo I think it perfectly reasonable to stop cycle riding. There needs to be very distinct signage. Central Oxford has a few streets like this - the longest stretch is 120m, so about 40 seconds walking, but it still grates for some. On a footway and in pedestrian zones people should be able to walk, changing direction at whim, without having to look out for anything going faster than pedestrian speeds - almost as if they are blind.
I should be done by proper highway rules - PSPOs are used by underhand councils to enforce some really discriminating policies. Oxford uses them for a variety of purposes - the city centre is now a lot less interesting - less busking - street art, small stalls etc. - it's really only worth visiting for the university - almost everything else has be chain-stored and sanitised. Mind that's true country wide.
In the article photo I'd not have too much of a problem with "no cycling" on this isolated section. However what about the chap in his mobility scooter there? I'm sure we allow invalid carriages - otherwise they're in for a legal challenge sharpish. Also, if you can't walk (well) but can cycle is it "tough - it's 'invalid carriage' only"? If you came from further away would you have to cycle your four-wheeled chair there? (Much) more on this if anyone's interested in Mobycon e.g. this article / video.
Although this street isn't a boulevard exactky I don't see why there isn't space e.g. down the middle for a (carefully marked - e.g. different height level?) cycle path. It could even be "one way". The question would be "in the bigger local context would cycle access here make sense?" I appreciate that most people in the UK would immediately shout "no!" If it wasn't for pedestrian zones being a tiny oasis in a vehicular desert... However those people are also the ones who're keen to walk there because it's not pleasant elsewhere because cars. We have brought ourselves to this point by essentially turning all our streets into roads with parking lots so walkers can drive to get wherever they want to walk...
Councils, being public bodies, are under a duty to be reasonable.
I wonder whether a £100 fine - higher than many more dangerous vehicle fines or other criminal offences - for an 82 year old is proportionate or reasonable?
Sadly, penalties are not often proportionate or reasonable in the sense that they take into account the circumstances of the offender. £100 to some pensioners might be most of a week's income; to someone on, say, £50,000 p.a., it's small change. I would have thought it reasonable to take into account the age and income of the offender, and the fact that he obviously didn't know he was commiting an offence, and issue a written warning with a fine if he re-offends. Maybe taking into account that most of us become increasingly confused as we age. I know I am, as is every oldie I know.
Yes, cycling & pedestrians is a dangerous mix. I therefore propose that we ban pedestrians from all Sustrans cycle paths with immediate effect.
Makes as much sense as banning cyclists from urban centres.
I am sure we'd all be having a different conversation if the headline had been
“Stick it up your a*se”, 82-year-old tells council officer after being fined £100 for driving in a cycle lane"
I've been clipped three times in the past year by cyclists in pedestrian areas, twice were glancing blows but the third was a full on collision. In all cases the cyclist gave me a sneer about old people doddering along and then rode off, at speed. Why do many cyclists complain about the behaviour of car drivers but then treat pedestrians with the same contempt they feel cyclists receive from motorists? Do as I say not as I do?
You're right: I'm sure that eighty two years old bloke was dangerously haring along on his way to the bank.
With something like "cycling in a pedestrian area", wouldn't it be better to concentrate stopping antisocial activities rather than a blanket ban on *all* cycling?
We certainly would, because they are entirely different issues with an entirely different set of problems and consequences. We'd be having a different conversation if it was "“Stick it up your a*se”, 82-year-old tells council officer after being fined £100 for firing off their shotgun in public" as well. So?
I don't think this would have been reported if it was someone driving in a cycle lane. I don't think it would have attracted a penalty. I'm not aware all the cars that are moved into cycle lanes or onto the pavement by cranes, the wind, a passing pack of rugby players etc. attracting penalties.
Citation needed on the "many". However it does sounds like in certain places e.g. London a larger proportion of those go-ahead, aggressive, contemptuous-of-other-road-user types have been persuaded to use cycles rather than cars. I'm pretty sure that's a good thing. That's not because I'm contemptuous about pedestrians but simply that by the measures I'm aware of it's safer for pedestrians to be around cyclists than drivers. I suspect that is especially true for elderly cyclists. Not so many of those going "way too fast" by doing 20mph in a 30pmh zone.
I'm sorry you've been hit by people on bikes. I hope you didn't suffer lasting injuries. The root cause (apart from the usual human selfishness) is: we allocated the vast majority of transport space for driving. People want to walk (even walking alongside lots of traffic is unpleasant) so there's a lot of concern about the few car-free places. Unfortunately a) there's pressure because people tend to drive to the places they want to walk and b) attempts to encourage a better form of transport for short distances in the form of cycling currently ignore the cars and tell those on bikes and walking to "share the space". This is much safer than sharing with cars but far from ideal.
To repeat my earlier example - here's a better vision of how we could (and should) do this, rather than "you lot not in cars, fight over scraps".
If an 82-year-old is driving where they shouldn't, then there's a very real chance of someone getting hurt and/or killed. If I see an 82-year-old cycling along, then the chances are that they're a careful cyclist (there's old cyclists and bold cyclists, but few old, bold cyclists) especially as in collisions between cyclists and pedestrians, the cyclist often comes off worse. That's why I think that careful cyclists shouldn't be banned from town centres when the problem is the asshole cyclists.
Consider that when motorists speed and/or hit people and things, there is almost never a complete ban on driving in that area, and yet cyclists are often banned from town centres even though the number of KSIs are virtually non-existent. What's needed is better policing to deal with the inconsiderate cyclists and banning 82-year-olds from cycling to the shops is just a ridiculous way of dealing with the problem.
Personally, I'd like it if roads were closed to motor traffic whenever there's too many drivers speeding and/or crashing, but it seems society is willing to accept deaths from drivers, but not willing to accept bumps and bruises from cyclists.
A brutal statement rephrased here: millions of driving commuters / mums / old people vote. Just under two thousand dead pedestrians and cyclists a year don't. Count the injured and relatives - the numbers still work. Or: amount of money spend on cars, insurance and fuel (plus sent to construction companies) is orders of magnitude greater than the amount spent on bicycles, chain oil / batteries / cake (also shared by non-cyclists) and paint / wands.
Of course we're making problems worse than they need to be by funnelling people on foot and (the few) people cycling into the same narrow spaces. Plus the level of cycling is so low that cyclists are still unexpected in many places. And we've made things safer by "moving the people out of the way of the cars". Sorry - that's "erected "protective barriers" / long diversions for those on foot and most people simply won't attempt to cross a busy (multi-lane) road etc. I'm not sure if you need to correct for that and things like cyclists being quieter. However I'd still guess that motor vehicles present a proportionally greater risk to people (anyone have any data?). I'd be certain about that if you factor in the health effects of motoring other than direct impact! And it's very easy for an 80-year-old in a car to bring more than say 6kJ of energy to a collision when driving a car. Not so likely on a bike...
More to the point, our dear old troll Martin73 has previously opined that deaths from motoring are the necessary cost and can therefore be dismissed as acceptable, but a single death from cycling is unacceptable, so by extention any cycling activity that has the slightest risk to other road users must be banned.
They do spout a lot of shite - I just ignore them as they have nothing of interest to say.
So did the council officers actually see Mr. Enderby riding his bike or have testimony from witnesses or other evidence to prove he was riding his bike? Otherwise the ticket would appear to be rubbish. Unless, of course, the Lincolnshire ban on riding bikes extends to walking them those "few meters" from Bethlehem or Osborne streets into the town center and chaining them to a post in order to do your banking. I don't know UK law all that well, but here in the U.S., you can't be ticketed by authorities for what they think you might have done or might do. And chaining up a bike is definitely not "riding'' a bike.
Interesting snippet from a Grimsby News story from 2018 prior to the PSPO coming into force.
"Riding a pedal cycle in such a manner causing or likely to cause nuisance, alarm, harassment or distress to any other person or causing or likely to cause any other person to be intimidated."
Now maybe Mr Enderby was hooning around behaving like a naughty teenager. Maybe he was politely asked by the Council appointed official to refrain from cycling in the High Street and refused. Or maybe PSPO enforcement duties have been farmed out as a sort of legalised extortion racket to a private company who's operatives patrol the streets avoiding anyone who looks like they will give them trouble and picking on soft targets in a bid to fulfil their quota?
Here is a bit of local context. This story appeared, by an astonishing coincidence, shortly after BBC Look North's presenter Peter Levy was challenged about yet another anti-cyclist report on the regional TV news:
https://twitter.com/looknorthBBC/status/1545358344344543235
Note the comment - beneath the original tweet - from David Harrison (ex BBC Radio 'Humberside' Hull reporter), a former colleague of TV reporter Crispin Rolfe. In Hull the council (formerly Labour; since Liberal) has been keen to promote cycling in the city centre. The local click bait rag wasn't convinced:
https://road.cc/content/news/263398-local-paper-runs-front-page-story-cy...
If that photo is anything to go on, I'd struggle to walk the length of that road.
To me, apart from number of wheels, there is no difference between my ebike and that mobility scooter.
It would be interesting to see what the reaction would be ... I think I'd still get a ticket but would have to appeal it.
Wonder how it works with 3 wheeled recumbent cycles ... would you still get a ticket for being on one?
It would be interesting to see the actual wording of the PSPO and see whether you could legally ride on one, three or four wheels.
Root cause - another interest has taken most of the pie and the "minor / less prestigious groups" are fighting over the scraps.
Possbily another one to weight against the disability / access legislation? For some people their cycle * is their mobility vehicle ("invalid carriage" in the legalese I think). I'm not sure how far the law goes though.
Lots of pedestrians + cyclists or lots of cyclists + pedestrians - neither is a comfortable mix. The real issue is we have dedicated far too much space for motor vehicles in our towns and cities. Strangely people don't even like strolling alongside busy roads... If only we could see some examples of places where they've organised things differently...
* "Cycle" however configured, from wheelchair with extra wheel to normal bike where you are missing a limb / suffer fatigue etc.
The proverbial sledgehammer to crack a nut; whatever the problem really is, just ban cyclists. I'll venture to suggest that Mr Enderby was causing no danger, and the officious jobsworth could have used some discretion, but as he says, he's an easy target. I wonder what the average age is of the people fined? Pretty old I'd guess as they don't stop anyone under thirty.
"“Shoppers, businesses and people working in the town centre often complain about nuisance cycling in the pedestrian zone,” the Conservative politician continued."
Excellent, so they'll have records of these complaints to prove their case. No? Gosh, I'll be a sworn-hoggled cow-eagle.
The law is the law, but when it is an unfair law, Mr Enderby is right, they can stick it up their arse.
Surely at his age, he could claim it's a mobility aid?
The law is the law, but when it is an unfair law, Mr Enderby is right, they can stick it up their arse
The problem is that the law really clamps down on elderly cyclists and gives them a good kicking, but is astonishingly (OK, that's wrong, it doesn't astonish most of us on here at all) lenient towards significant law breaking by motorists. Below is RE19 YSP which has not paid VED for 18 months, but the DVLA's own database shows that he took the vehicle in for MOT on 27.5.22- and they still can't nail him for being untaxed. Nobody bothers SORN-ing up here and then illegally taking the vehicle on the road, because there's no need- you just ignore VED and nothing happens. I can state with 100% certainty that nothing will happen as a result of a report to the police- because neither they or DVLA can be bothered. I have already shown on here the numerous people without MOT for years, and they don't bother about those either. You may say that's just England's worst police force, but this must be going on everywhere
I was recently issued a fixed penalty notice for driving where I wasn't allowed (yes, I admit I was in the wrong, my only excuse is that it was a town I was not familiar with and I was following a satnav). The point is that this was only £70, reduced by 50% for prompt payment. So it would seem that the powers that be regard cycling in a pedestrian area as worse than driving in one. Says it all, really.
Anyone know the mechanics of getting a ticket for cycling? I.e. how do they identify you to give you the ticket and what happens if you refuse to cooperate in the issuing process? I'm guessing the halfwit jobsworths don't have any powers of arrest or capacity to detain so can't you just ignore them and get on your way?
I was wondering the same thing but I don't live in the UK. Over here, by law everyone aged 12 or older has to carry government issued photo id on them at all times when in the public domain. But only police officers, customs and certain officials can order a person to produce it.
So how does it work in the UK where there is to my knowledge no such ID law? What's there to stop you from getting on your bike and simply riding off? Or can these guys detain you and call the police?
As I understand it depends on whether they have a warrant card, if they do they have certain very limited powers delegated from the police, including the right to demand your details, and they can call the police if you refuse. They certainly can't detain you. If they don't have a warrant card they have no right to force you to give your details, so always the first thing to ask.
"Grimsby Live saw several riders weaving between shoppers and ignoring enforcement officers, who do not have the power to detain riders."
and "He said a total of 20 fines were imposed for anti-social behaviour."
The article says that several anti-social cyclists weren't stopped, so the only effect of this law is to punish responsible cyclists, while the yobs keep riding.
https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-news/brazen-cycle-scoote...
Frankly, if they have no powers to stop/detain then it's simply a way to fill the coffers at the expense of people who look like they'll kowtow and pay, those who look like they'll get off their bike and start dishing out GBH won't be bothered. The article has a pic of a fat git on a bike that's 3 sizes too small and who simply pedals past the officers. He doesn't look too bothered.
Having said that, I respect pedestrian only areas but it's not too much to ask that they're clearly signposted.
Prompt payment in cash without receipt?
I walk my ebike but got told off by an elderly woman to turn my front light off in our local, very small shopping Mall and I'm young 77 year old. And we do have young riders belting through the same mall with no real cyclist in them just on a rough bike at breakneck speed and no Council officer would dare get their way to stop them. There are signs (very small signs) that say no SMOKING but they still pollute the air and leave a mess for someone to clear up.
Rather OT, but if you're 77, how old was the elderly woman?
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