Mark Cavendish returns to Tour de France after two-year absence

There's also the possibility that Lefevere may have had to beat Marks price down and was using Sam's "fitness" to do that, as Lefevere had already said Mark wasnt going to race the TdF on his (current) negotiated pay.

Surely if he does overtake it, by definition he is in the same league?  He may not have the whole qualities of Merckx's but his record in TdF stages would speak to itself.

I think it's the "whole qualities" that are the difference. Stage wins are an easy yardstick - but rather a partial one. Most here understand it's not really like-for-like - but their two records will be compared as if they were.

It's not a big deal - just doesn't sit quite right with me (for all that matters!).

Duncann wrote:

I think it's the "whole qualities" that are the difference. Stage wins are an easy yardstick - but rather a partial one. Most here understand it's not really like-for-like - but their two records will be compared as if they were.

It's not a big deal - just doesn't sit quite right with me (for all that matters!).

Please define "whole qualities", it is a meaningless statement without a point of reference but i agree, the comparison is not like for like, Merckx came from a simpler era where there was not the same level of competition for him (I know you can only beat who is put in front of you and lets not start counting failed dope tests) as there has been for Cav who specialises in one specific skill so I think to get close to the same number of wins but in a much more fiercly contested and specialist field puts him in a higher league for tour stage wins.

Welsh boy wrote:

Please define "whole qualities", it is a meaningless statement without a point of reference

GC wins is the obvious one - you need a fuller set of attributes to win overall. But you could include things like overall effect on the race, attacks, variety of victories (e.g. mountain stages, TTs, etc.).

Cipollini won almost twice as many Giro stages at Merckx, does that make him twice as good?

But did the cannibal ever look this good...?

I don't think it would make any difference, nobody with any sense would start to say Cav was level with Merckx in the pantheon just because he equalled or beat the TdF stage record. Merckx holding the stage record is of course a reflection of his greatness but also something of an anomaly, the holders of most stage wins in the Giro (Cipollini) and Vuelta (Rodriguez) are both sprinters. All Cav taking the record would do would mark him as the greatest TdF pure sprinter.

Sadly I feel it's all a bit academic, I reckon one win, possibly in a stage with a reduced peleton from echelon splits, is the best we can hope for (would love to come back in a month to say how wrong I was!).

Duncann wrote:

Pleased he's back but I hope he doesn't overtake Merckx's record - Cav's great but isn't in that league.

Merckx is a legend ? His achievements are unparalleled, but.. 'controversial opinion alert'.. he was caught doping four times in eight years, so surely this cheapens his legend status. Not talking about it doesn't make it untrue. We'll never know the truth and speculation is a road to nowhere, what could have been blah blah..  drugs to cheat certainly have changed through the years, but cheating is cheating no matter which side of the fence you sit. 

If Cav gets one stage it's enough for me to blub like a small child in front of the TV... four stages and Hollywood should come knocking, it'd be worthy of one of those brainlessly predicable American comeback movies. 

But each is measured by the yardstick of their peers. I'm guessing most of Merckx's were similarly fuelled?

I'm not in the business of defending dopers, but from memory I thought Merckx was only caught three times: the first was in the Giro in very suspicious circumstances (the UCI revoked his ban for it), quite possibly a setup by Italians seeking to assist their own riders (the corruption in Italian cycling at that time was  incredible; one time in the '70s when Moser was leading Merckx in the mountains Italian TV sent their helicopter to hover low between them, simultaneously pushing Moser up the hill and Merckx back down); the second he took a cough medicine prescribed by the Moletini doctor that contained a banned substance that wasn't listed on the bottle; the third (and most dubious) he said he'd been given a supplement by a doctor who assured him it was legal but wasn't. He may have doped but I'd say it's by no means a certainty.