Black teen on charity ride ‘grabbed from bike’ by Met police officer

jasecd wrote:

Don't worry I've edited it, making your initially needless and patronising comment now irrelevant.

Personally I don't pull people up on spelling or gramatical mistakes online as I know nothing of their eduactional standards or if they have a condition which makes writing harder. You're not contributing to the debate unless you believe a smug sense of self satisfaction is somehow a contirbution?

Personally, I'm grateful when someone corrects me because then I don't make the mistake again.  It's called learning, and it's very beneficial and positive; you should try it sometime instead of getting quite so upset and negative.

When it's not requested and done publicly it's not "learning" - you're being sanctimonious and patronising, just like your subsequent comments.

jasecd wrote:

When it's not requested and done publicly it's not "learning" - you're being sanctimonious and patronising, just like your subsequent comments.

I disagree; I was helping someone who had made a common mistake, that they would have continued to do indefinitely if they hadn't been shown their error.  How are we supposed to learn if nobody tells us when we're wrong?

Would you stop for a random weirdo shouting at you?  This was a plain clothes officer.

Can you, as a trained copper, not tell the difference between someone with their "adrenaline up, most likely frightened as a result of already attempting to kill someone" a few moments ago, and a young boy on a bike ride?

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer i am going to ask you what would you of done? I am going to give you the scenario as it has been given, I am sure there is a lot of what happened that isnt being said in this article. 

A report comes in that nearby someone has been stabbed and 2 black males have been identified as suspects and are riding along the canal towpath last seen heading in your direction. You then see 2 black males riding towards you...

What do you do? 

 

Block their path and tell them to stop?

And they dont stop? the 13 year old said he panicked and started to run away? Is he running because he is scared for his safety or because he has been caught?

or he slows you think he has stopping and pulls the knife and you have now been stabbed? 

If they fail to stop, then tackling them would be appropriate.

I'd be very surprised at a 13 year old trying to take on a group of police when armed with only a knife. Does that happen a lot? Do you typically wear stab-proof vests etc.?

(By the way, we appear to be moving away from the given scenario)

No it doesnt happen often, People do not get stabbed often and for officers to be nearby is even less often but it does happen. We always wear stab vests but that still leaves your head/neck arms waist exposed, they arent going to stop you getting hurt only lessen the chance of being killed. 

When you ask someone to stop you are giving them the chance to run from you, this raises the risk to others as when someone is fleeing the risks they take rise meaning others can potentialy get hurt. Mostly they will know the area better than the officers, would you want to give a murderer a chance to get away? 

In a study in America it was shown that you need around 15metre to be able to draw and fire a taser/baton/spray at someone who comes at you with a knife before they will get to you. At which point you are at an even bigger disadvantage as your arms will not be in a posistion to defend your self. 

I guess my point is that they are dealing with a very serious incident where lives are still at risk, their own and other members of public.  I do not know if the officers could of done things differently I wasnt there but it is very easy to criticise after the event when you find out they are nice people finishing a charity bike ride. 

I am sure this would have many senior officers looking through the body worn video of all the officers and no doubt finding lots of things that they will criticise the officers about. Police are the most scrutinised workforce, the law court juries could learn a lot from the '9 o'clock' jury that meets every day in every force to look at what has happened the day before. If these officers have performed badly it would be flagged up and appropriate action will be taken. 

In my opinion, events like this one demonstrate how f-ing lucky we are in the UK that our police officers do not carry firearms as a matter of course.

From the report, it didn't sound like there was a lot of opportunity for running, but yes it's something that the police need to consider.

I think the problem is that the police were assuming that they'd got their man (despite it being a youth) and treated the pair as though they were involved in the stabbing. What people are questioning is whether they would have behaved the same if the pair were white and the description was of a pair of white males on bikes.

Police should be heavily scrutinised and I'm sure that it is a very difficult job to get right all the time. Unfortunately, we live in polarised times and the police have to be even more sensitive to tensions than they might otherwise be and we rely on the senior police to criticise where appropriate and also to back their staff when they have done a good job. What we don't want to see is the police closing ranks and dismissing any criticism out-of hand as that leads to mistrust. (I think body-cams are a very useful tool in showing the situation as it happened).

'When you ask someone to stop you are giving them the chance to run from you' 

Presumed innocence is part of your job. All the plain clothes officer had to gone on was the colour of his skin, not enough to escalate to violence in my book, as your wage payer.

'Mostly they will know the area better than the officers'

Thought the sign of a good copper is knowing their beat, also canal paths don't have many exits.

'very easy to criticise after the event when you find out they are nice people finishing a charity bike ride. ' 

The father was still cuffed even after showing the evidence of the ride.

To reassert the point to those its still not clear to, the initial officer felt justified in tackling and pulling a firearm on a child solely because of the colour of his skin. That's racist.

And Luxie just because you work in the same industry as someone doesn't mean you can't criticise their conduct. 

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer i am going to ask you what would you of done? I am going to give you the scenario as it has been given, I am sure there is a lot of what happened that isnt being said in this article. 

A report comes in that nearby someone has been stabbed and 2 black males have been identified as suspects and are riding along the canal towpath last seen heading in your direction. You then see 2 black males riding towards you...

What do you do? 

As a police officer, would you react as depicted in the video if a report came in that someone had been stabbed and 2 white males have been identified as suspects and are riding along the towpath and you saw a white man and his white son riding towards you?

Yes without doubt. 

The officers were given the description of black males, they have to target black males as their suspects. From what is written they were told the suspects were on the towpath on bikes heading their direction. They had to deal with these people as suspects. As suspects they have to assess the risk to themselves and others. I would say the risk is high due to the suspects having stabbed a person and potentially still have weapons on them. 

Luxie wrote:

Yes without doubt. 

The officers were given the description of black males, they have to target black males as their suspects. From what is written they were told the suspects were on the towpath on bikes heading their direction. They had to deal with these people as suspects. As suspects they have to assess the risk to themselves and others. I would say the risk is high due to the suspects having stabbed a person and potentially still have weapons on them. 

Thanks for the reply.  Can you explain from a policing point of view why it would take 10 minutes holding them in handcuffs to decide they did not have a knife and were just cycling for charity?  What effect would diverting 6-8 officers have on the chase for the real criminals?  And how likely is it that the victim actually described the attackers as "IC3 males" - I suspect the language used may have been different and if it implied adults then surely this was a bad call, driven by adrenaline and (possibly unconscious) bias?

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer i am going to ask you what would you of done?

 

"of done", you obviously mean "have done", the police entrance standards don't can't be that high.

dreamlx10 wrote:

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer i am going to ask you what would you of done?

 

"of done", you obviously mean "have done", the police entrance standards don't can't be that high.

A comment section will often have spelling and grammatical mistakes and it's not really fair to call out someone on such a triviality (more appropriate to mention the lack of proof-reading in the articles though that seems better recently).

Amusingly, you've made a nonsense sentence with your "don't can't" construction, so maybe you need to focus on your own ability first.

dreamlx10 wrote:

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer i am going to ask you what would you of done?

 

"of done", you obviously mean "have done", the police entrance standards don't can't be that high.

No shit!

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer i am going to ask you what would you of done? I am going to give you the scenario as it has been given, I am sure there is a lot of what happened that isnt being said in this article. 

A report comes in that nearby someone has been stabbed and 2 black males have been identified as suspects and are riding along the canal towpath last seen heading in your direction. You then see 2 black males riding towards you...

What do you do? 

 

“He was crazy angry and shouting. I got scared because I thought he might be mugging me or trying to give me corona so I ran, but there was nowhere to go but in the bushes.”

Would you do this?  Remember, he was also in plainclothes so the lad understandably shat himself.

Luxie wrote:

What do you do?

I strongly suggest you don't provoke people on here!

If this is your idea of appropriate action then I have to worry even more about racism, aggression and the use of excessive force by the police.

Or perhaps you're past caring what the public thinks and close ranks, protecting the wrongdoers and forgetting your primary duty, which is to SERVE the public, not terrorise them.

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer i am going to ask you what would you of done? I am going to give you the scenario as it has been given, I am sure there is a lot of what happened that isnt being said in this article. 

A report comes in that nearby someone has been stabbed and 2 black males have been identified as suspects and are riding along the canal towpath last seen heading in your direction. You then see 2 black males riding towards you...

What do you do?

Let's look at it from his point of view. 

You're accosted by an aggressive man on a narrow path, shouting at you without explaining why.  You've been subject to racial discrimination and agression all your life and this guy just seems to want trouble.  You've learned over the years that it's a lot better to run away than to face bullies like him. 

What would you do?

eburtthebike wrote:

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer i am going to ask you what would you of done? I am going to give you the scenario as it has been given, I am sure there is a lot of what happened that isnt being said in this article. 

A report comes in that nearby someone has been stabbed and 2 black males have been identified as suspects and are riding along the canal towpath last seen heading in your direction. You then see 2 black males riding towards you...

What do you do?

Let's look at it from his point of view. 

You're accosted by an aggressive man on a narrow path, shouting at you without explaining why.  You've been subject to racial discrimination and agression all your life and this guy just seems to want trouble.  You've learned over the years that it's a lot better to run away than to face bullies like him. 

What would you do?

Eburt, you have missed your vocation. You'd make an excellent copper. Your approval ratings would be sky high, from both the innocent and the guilty alike.

Dad & lad here would have nothing but praise for your hands-off approach to their arrest, and the speed with which you de-escalated the situation down to a socially distanced chat as soon as it was obvious they were uncomfortable being arrested.

And of course guilty crims also would be writing in from their bolt holes to thank you, how they enjoyed their all too brief encounter with you, and hope your colleagues can learn from your example.

Sriracha wrote:

eburtthebike wrote:

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer i am going to ask you what would you of done? I am going to give you the scenario as it has been given, I am sure there is a lot of what happened that isnt being said in this article. 

A report comes in that nearby someone has been stabbed and 2 black males have been identified as suspects and are riding along the canal towpath last seen heading in your direction. You then see 2 black males riding towards you...

What do you do?

Let's look at it from his point of view. 

You're accosted by an aggressive man on a narrow path, shouting at you without explaining why.  You've been subject to racial discrimination and agression all your life and this guy just seems to want trouble.  You've learned over the years that it's a lot better to run away than to face bullies like him. 

What would you do?

Eburt, you have missed your vocation. You'd make an excellent copper. Your approval ratings would be sky high, from both the innocent and the guilty alike. Dad & lad here would have nothing but praise for your hands-off approach to their arrest, and the speed with which you de-escalated the situation down to a socially distanced chat as soon as it was obvious they were uncomfortable being arrested. And of course guilty crims also would be writing in from their bolt holes to thank you, how they enjoyed their all too brief encounter with you, and hope your colleagues can learn from your example.

Well, thanks for the response, and attributing all kinds of actions and attitudes to me which I have not expressed and you have no evidence for; not the behaviour I would expect of an unbiased police.

And you neatly avoided answering the question.  In his place, with his life experience of discrimination and hate, being confronted by a shouting, large man apparently intent on inflicting harm, what would you do?

Yes, I'd run! So how does that inform the police officer's actions? A guilty person would do no different. I'm not blaming the kid for running.

Sorry for framing you in my reply. I'm just trying to explore the avenue you appear to be suggesting, that the officer should pause to understand the suspect's life experience and de-escalate because he does not come quietly.

Sriracha wrote:

Yes, I'd run! So how does that inform the police officer's actions? A guilty person would do no different. I'm not blaming the kid for running. Sorry for framing you in my reply. I'm just trying to explore the avenue you appear to be suggesting, that the officer should pause to understand the suspect's life experience and de-escalate because he does not come quietly.

Yes, you've highlighted what I was trying to say; it's the underlying racism by people who don't consider themselves racist that is the problem here.  The failure to understand that approaching a black youth with a weapon in your hand, very threateningly, is guaranteed to make them run.  Then you assume they are guilty because they've run and arrest them.

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer i am going to ask you what would you of done? I am going to give you the scenario as it has been given, I am sure there is a lot of what happened that isnt being said in this article. 

A report comes in that nearby someone has been stabbed and 2 black males have been identified as suspects and are riding along the canal towpath last seen heading in your direction. You then see 2 black males riding towards you...

So you say you are going to give us the scenario given, and then you make stuff up? Or can you point out where in the scenario it is stated the suspects were last seen heading in your direction? Is that what you do as a police officer, make stuff up? All the article says is black males on "a" bike at an undisclosed location, direction unstated. So 27% of the population of Tottenham is black so they aren't exactly rare. You think its OK to assume every black guy is guilty? Beginning to sound a bit like Florida. You ask what we would do? Aren't police officers supposed first and foremost to identify themselves as police instead of just acting crazy and shouting? Enough time to scream and shout but no time to shout "Stop Police"? Let me turn your question round, if you are out innocently riding your bike and somebody dressed in civies runs up to you screaming and shouting, what would you do? 

Luxie wrote:

As a Police officer ...

Luxie - as a police officer, can you see why people get very het up by incidents like this?

Same thing you would if two white males were reported as suspects and you saw two white males with absolutely nothing beyond that to link them to the crime riding towards you?

srchar wrote:

I had a PCSO try to grab me off my bike last year, as I approached a red traffic light; he said he thought I was going to jump it. I'm white. Said PCSO was black. Was that racist too, or more likely, as is more likely in this case, a poorly trained cop with a shit attitude?

Why do we continue with this trope that "the police" are racist when they're taking a knee to violent protestors, and a copper I know was told by his boss to make his canteen wall of mugshots of known local muggers whiter, or take it down?

Anecdotes do not data make.