Cyclists riding within the speed limit are “more alarming” than motorists exceeding it according to Dartmoor Speedwatch Group.
The Tavistock Times Gazette reports that volunteers monitoring excessive speed from the Postrbridge bus stop caught five out of 53 vehicles speeding in a 40mph zone, with one person driving at 50mph.
“What was perhaps more alarming were the cyclists who on average came past the bus stop at between 30 to 35mph,” said the group’s manager, Gregg Manning.
“With a rider weighing perhaps 12 stone travelling at 35mph, with the bike as well, the combined impact that would have on a pedestrian would cause serious injuries or even death.
“I really think it’s about time something was done about this group of people who seem to be invisible to the authorities but pose a very real danger on the road.”
Manning conceded that the cyclists were not doing anything illegal, “but when you watch them come through the village and over the narrow crossing point going as fast as they possibly can it is very dangerous if a pedestrian crosses.”
He added: “What is even worse is that unlike bikers who wear protective clothing, these riders wear the thinnest of material with lots of bare flesh. Bare flesh and tarmac do not mix.
“I am sure this will generate some reaction from the biking world but I really am only stating facts — I want to know how long it takes to stop a bike at that speed.”
Over to you, road.cc readers.
56 thoughts on “30mph cyclists “more alarming” than 50mph motorists says Dartmoor Speedwatch Group”
It’s time something was done
It’s time something was done about this group who aren’t breaking any laws and are going slower than the cars?
Yes, the roads are dangerous for pedestrians crossing. That’s why they’re ALWAYS supposed to look both ways before crossing. Electric cars, which are increasingly prevalent, have the same silence/speed thing as cyclists, but to a greater degree.
‘when you watch them come through the village and over the narrow crossing point going as fast as they possibly can it is very dangerous if a pedestrian crosses.’ – It’s a pedestrian crossing Gregg. If there is, as the name suggests, a pedestrian using the crossing, the cyclists will stop, as is the law.
Also, the clothing thing is irrelevant. The cyclist is well aware of the impacts of a crash. We know that tarmac and flesh don’t mix. We might wear more armour, like a motorbike rider, if we weren’t exerting ourselves and sweating. I don’t get what his point is here.
Finally Gregg, the stopping distance of a road bike from 30mph is around half that of a regular car. What’s your point?
Toffee wrote:
i’ll preface this with saying that the guy is talking twaddle and that it’s a good job he doesn’t clock me coming down Pork Hill. However, saying pedestrian should look before they cross would be victim blaming if there was an accident. I know the hill well that they are talking about. On the bridge, which is the pinch point, there are always people so it pays to be aware and call a warning if you are coming through. It won’t hurt.
thehairs1970 wrote:
Green cross code? Tufty?
Tell me you would look that traffic could stop before stepping onto a zebra crossing.
hirsute wrote:
i’ll preface this with saying that the guy is talking twaddle and that it’s a good job he doesn’t clock me coming down Pork Hill. However, saying pedestrian should look before they cross would be victim blaming if there was an accident. I know the hill well that they are talking about. On the bridge, which is the pinch point, there are always people so it pays to be aware and call a warning if you are coming through. It won’t hurt.
— thehairs1970Green cross code? Tufty? Tell me you would look that traffic could stop before stepping onto a zebra crossing.— Toffee
if you stop, and wait for the traffic to stop, before stepping out onto a zebra crossing, I don’t think you’ll ever get across the road…
brooksby wrote:
Not what I said though
you wait for one lane to be sufficiently clear. Then as soon as you put your foot on the road users in the other lane have to stop. The HC also intimates that a motorist should be prepared to stop if it looks like somebody is about to cross.
hirsute wrote:
i’ll preface this with saying that the guy is talking twaddle and that it’s a good job he doesn’t clock me coming down Pork Hill. However, saying pedestrian should look before they cross would be victim blaming if there was an accident. I know the hill well that they are talking about. On the bridge, which is the pinch point, there are always people so it pays to be aware and call a warning if you are coming through. It won’t hurt.
— hirsuteGreen cross code? Tufty? Tell me you would look that traffic could stop before stepping onto a zebra crossing.— thehairs1970
Of course I’d look. But , if a cyclist gets knocked off a bike because he didn’t look, we would be making some comments about cycle lanes, poor driving etc etc. I think we can take the same approach to pedestrians as we want other road users to take to cyclists. Think about each other and be aware that the road is a shared environment.
As I said, I live near this place, its a great downhill and I love going fast. But if I see pedestrians on the bridge, I call a warning. If I see kids or dogs I slow down. Being in the right when you’re laying on the gravel wondering where you teeth are and why there’s ketchup everywhere is a silly place to be.
thehairs1970 wrote:
— thehairs1970I’d hope people would make comments based on the evidence. I’ve seen plenty of cyclists cycle off the pavementt without looking
thehairs1970 wrote:
No that is not victim blaming. Anyone who crosses a road without looking is the cause of any directly subsequent incident. If they get hurt then, it is their fault.
The ‘pedstriam is never in the wrong’ attitidue is a problem in itself.
imajez wrote:
https://road.cc/content/news/262396-cyclist-found-partly-liable-crash-pedestrian-who-was-looking-her-mobile-phone#comment-1861192
There y’go. The pedestrian is apparently 50% at fault. A judge said so
The only facts in Mr Manning
The only facts in Mr Manning’s rather bizarre statement is that the cyclists were riding within the speed limit and that many of them wear clothing.
Otherwise, utter gamon wibble.
I’m racking my brains for an
I’m racking my brains for an apposite phrase to sum up the incredible stupidity of Gregg Manning and his group, but such abysmal, crepuscular intelligence deserves something more than just cretinous. Imbecilic perhaps? Synonyms are good, fool, idiot, cretin, moron, dolt, halfwit, ass, dunce, dullard, simpleton, nincompoop, blockhead, ignoramus, clod, but nothing sums up the utter, total lack of any kind of intelligence of this guy.
I’ve seen ameobas with a better grasp of reality.
There really is no helping
There really is no helping some people. Unless this on a downhill, or a pro-peloton, I think someone is putting prejudices before logic and facts. The only cyclist some want to see is Miss Marple on her shopper, and then only on telly. Yes, some cyclists want to go fast, but none, ever want to hit a pedestrian. No we don’t wear much more than underwear, if we wore leathers we wouldn’t be going fast or far and therefore wouldn’t need them. How fast can I stop? Very quickly! I can also swerve into small gaps which a car can’t if someone walks in front without looking. When you’ve sorted out the group of people involved in over 1700 deaths EVERY FRICKING YEAR, have a look at “this group of people”. Some people go to great lengths (standing at the roadside all day pretending to care about speeding) just to moan about law abiding cyclists.
Wardy74 wrote:
And due to speeding motorists Miss Marple types simply won’t cycle and the majority who do cycle do so despite the threat of harm.
Also can people (not you Wardy) stop using 1% of road deaths being attributed to people on bikes, this is incorrect, four at fault deaths from circa 13,000 over the last seven years is 0.03% of fatalities.
I really think it’s about
I really think it’s about time Gregg Manning familiarises himself with physics and confirmation bias and then gets a fucking grip.
Surely it is a lot easier for
Surely it is a lot easier for a cyclist to avoid a pedestrian who steps out into a road without looking than it is for a driver in a car to do so due to the much narrower width, lower road speed and greater manoeverability of a bike.
Still, why let facts get in the way of a good rant about cyclists wearing “offensive” clothing? This is like the racist policeman, Constable Savage from the Not-the-nine-o-clock news sketch.
Greg needs something to worry
Greg needs something to worry about. Greg, can you do something about the ~85,000 drivers convicted of drink driving every year, for starters?
You can e-mail Gregg to ask
You can e-mail Gregg to ask him about his rationale at: greggmanning@live.com
Dear Gregg
Dear Gregg
Read this very carefully. A person riding a bicycle cannot break a speed limit, as speed limits do not apply to non-motorised vehicles. Look at the written Traffic Regulation Order backing up any speed restriction on the road, and it will say “it is not permitted to allow a motorised vehicle to exceed XXmph’.
You may ask yourself the question why this is. Well, let me enlighten you. A 1-tonne piece of metal travelling at 30mph is a bloody weapon, hence why the authorities have to spend thousands of pounds of tax payers money every year attempting to minimise the danger they pose.
Regards, Someone Who Knows What They Are Talking About.
It’s those cyclists again,
It’s those cyclists again, they ride dangerously fast through our villages and country roads, also they ride slowly through our villages and on our country roads holding up motorists, they theoretically kill thousands of people.
kingleo wrote:
dont forget our lights are too bright, also they are not bright enough!
A bit of context. Postbridge
A bit of context. Postbridge is approached by a long straight descent from the East, where it’s easy to build up speed. At the foot of the descent the road narrows for the bridge over the Dart, where there are no pavements. Just beyond the bridge there are frequently pedestrians crossing from the car park to the access path for the nearby ancient clapper bridge, a tourist honeypot. There is no pedestrian crossing.
The potential for conflict is obvious, particularly when there are large coach parties milling about on or near the bridge.
None of which, of course, justifies the quoted response. Usually community speedwatch groups are alive to the risks for all vulnerable road users.
WBoy wrote:
Given that context, I would ask:
a) why does the guy think speeding cars are less dangerous to pedestrians than bikes?
b) why don’t they make the speed limit 20mph?
I’m surprised they were doing
I’m surprised they were doing 30-35mph both ways as the bus stop seems to be up a gradient (although coming from that direction looks a really good descent). Either some pro athletes on training or the figures are more exaggerated. I suspect they were listening for cars so they could get ready for them so the bikes “spooked” them by not making any noise pollution.
Weirdly the site for that group seem to be focused mostly about protecting the animals that run wild on the moor then people as every stat they were proud of was less animals killed per year. I’m not saying it isn’t a bad thing, just that I’m sure a bike wouldn’t make a dent in a long horn crossing the road.
It would have also been interesting on how many cyclists were there anyway. Are they included in the 53 vehicles? Was the average on two cyclists seperately or 10 in a chain gang?
Play nicely if you do decide
Play nicely if you do decide to email him.
I think the point, with a very big such as it is, is that cars are in his view “normal”, and there’s something impersonal about that, less impactful (irony noted) than person on a bike – personal.
I’d like to see car / bike stopping distances objectively tested – 25 or 30 mph feels very fast on a bike and can feel woefully slow driving. I’m pretty sure, and this may be the perception of speed talking, the car stops better than would the bike.
I’m growing weary of all the “if you can’t see my mirrors, I can’t see you” type “warnings”. Actually, who’s problem is that – clearly mine as I’m the one who gets crushed.
David9694 wrote:
if you think those are bad, allow me to introduce you to Suffolk Roadsafes “Yellow Lorry Project”, they take a gritter lorry to local primary schools and pass on helpful advice to children who want to cycle like this “If a lorry stops behind you, move forward so that you can see the driver’s face. Give them a smile! Make sure that they know you are there.” lorry stops behind you, but you have to move forward so they can see you still…
David9694 wrote:
They are mainly for other vehicles.
Have you not noticed some drivers tailgating buses?
I’m not sure what they think they are acheiving, but the bus driver can’t see them and may stop and random with little warning.
Some people don’t realise how
Some people don’t realise how stupid they are making themselves look
You couldn’t make it up.
You couldn’t make it up. Ultimate Facepalm.
Gregg Manning doesn’t have the sense he was born with.
Somebody buy this bellend a
Somebody buy this bellend a TV
Have any of you been posting
Have any of you been posting on the Tavistock Times site?
It will only increase the us and them mentality…
Those of us who have a little grasp of physics, and then them that don’t.
Dear Gregg
Dear Gregg
would inserting ‘Spokey Dokes’ or similar oscillating spoke embellishments that make my bicycle sound a bit like a motorbike satisfy your velo-strations? I can also attach an air horn to alert pedestrians as they cross the road, if that helps?
Keep the curtain’s twitching, love and peace,
D
What is that bloody idiot
What is that bloody idiot going on about? A car doing 40 will severely mess up a pedestrian, let alone a car exceeding the limit, a bike with a rider on it really pales into relative insignificance.
Gregg’s a fruitcake. Or
Gregg’s a fruitcake. Or possibly a vegan sausage roll.
What is the point of
What is the point of answering this nonsense here? Clearly you have to write to the Tavistock Times Gazette. Or burn it down or something.
Slightly weird concept of
Slightly weird concept of danger from this guy – seems to think a cyclist doing 30mph is more dangerous than 2 tons of metal doing 50 mph. The last speed awareness course I went on was banging on (quite rightly) about how a couple of mph more makes a huge difference to the injuries.
Also – it is far easier for a narrow (1human wide – ish) cyclist to avoid someone than a car which is several humans wide with a slightly worse view of the outside world
Interesting point about stopping distances though (in the commenst – not from Greg obviously!) – any seen any actual test on stopping distances of bikes – road bike v mountain bike and road tyres v knbbly tyres v halfway all purpose ones? Would be intersting and we could send the results to Greg
Just checking in….has he
Just checking in….has he been flamed yet?
This is insane! I can’t
This is insane! I can’t believe someone, Greg, is complaining that cyclists are going to fast on a road rated for 50, does that mean motorists are really going way to fast? This is the most obsurd thing I’ve ever read. Not sure what the laws are there but in the States the simple answer is pedistrians in a crosswalk must yield to traffic UNLESS, if you read this, there is something else going on: https://driversprep.com/do-pedestrians-always-have-the-right-of-way/ I think Greg hates cyclists.
In the states a bicycle has the same rules as a motorist unless otherwise posted, and that means following speed limits as well.
Danger? Greg is least concerned about the safety of cyclists, he hates cyclists, and is trying to make a mountain out of an ant hill.
Greg needs to look at cyclists in an entirely different light. Iris Murdoch once said that the bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart. Maybe Greg needs to take up cycling.
I seriously hope nobody is
I seriously hope nobody is abusive or sweary with that email address. It surely has to be possible to point out the flawed reasoning involved while staying entirely polite?
Looking at that on streetview (I think I might have been there, but a lifetime ago) makes me disgruntled at how much prettier some people’s environment is than others. It’s a bit nicer looking than Croydon or Peckham. Looks like breathable air as well.
But I wonder ‘even if it slightly adversely affects the prettiness, can’t they just build a separate pedestrian bridge so the problem goes away?’.
There’s bound to be a problem if you have 50mph traffic and a choke-point like that, but it just makes no sense to see cyclists as a bigger issue, when they have a tiny fraction of the momentum that a 40mph+ motorised vehicle will.
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
NO! It’s a beautiful village in a moorland national park. No bridge please.
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
No need to build another one – there’s been a pedestrian bridge since the 13th century, the clapper bridge just a few feet downstream of the road bridge. It’s the clapper bridge that the tourists cross the road to see.
Messaging that email at all
Messaging that email at all is a losing game. Anyone prepared to make such a bold statement is not going to be swayed by emails which are obviously coming from cyclists. Debates like these are won in the wider public arena.
The top story from the
The top story from the journalist and the local rag is about a dead pony at a speeding hotspot. I couldn’t be bothered myself to explain the illogical aspects between the two stories.
ktache wrote:
Thanks for the heads up ktache. I read the ‘dead horse’ article and immediately wondered ‘why don’t they just put a fence up?’
P.S. I have never been to Dartmoor.
zero_trooper wrote:
Dartmoor is far too big an area, with many miles of road bordered by the moor, and it would be extremely difficult and incredibly expensive to fence, and would reduce the amenity value considerably.
Far better to get the horses to wear helmets. Cheaper and blames the victims.
I once stopped from 30mph
I once stopped from 30mph within less than 1,5m (because a motorist cut me off when he had to yield). Try that with a car and then tell me again who’s more dangerous.
What is the stopping distance
What is the stopping distance of a cyclist doing 30mph? Well pros like Chris Froome can stop in 0m, so no problems there.
Sorry, dark humour helps some times. This Manning is a real muppet and his inbox will be toast right now. The only fortunate thing is his BS is so transparent as to be meaningless. Although it seems like people these days have no critical thinking of their own, they just give in to their own prejudices immediately, media bubbles and all that. We here on road.cc are probably just the same, lets just hope ‘the truth has a cycling bias.’
Organon wrote:
— OrganonThe BS may be transparent to us but lots of people will take his comments at face value and think “bloody cyclists!”, yet again reinforcing a stereotype, regardless of any facts.
Social media, online MSM will take it and run with it. Those ‘bubbles’ are massive, their influence is HUGE.
Regarding ponies and fencing I’m reminded of this:
The deer isn’t crossing the road. The road is crossing the forest.
https://twitter.com/AmericanIndian8/status/998937779747807232
It seems to me that the issue
It seems to me that the issue here, disregarding Mr Manning’s woeful misreading, is having such a high speed limit through a village and no anti-speed infrastructure to enforce it.
I’ve toured quite a lot in France where many, perhaps most, villages on well-trafficked roads put all sorts of measures in place to bring speeds of both motor vehicles and bicycles down to a good deal less than 20mph. This includes rumble strips at the outskirts, chicanes, different road surfaces in the village, plateau-type speed bumps/crossings, very narrow carriageways and other measures. They seem very effective to me and make the villages far more pleasant.
ConcordeCX wrote:
Exactly! I read the feature and then the newspaper article. I immediately wondered why there wasn’t a pedestrian crossing?
So tourist coaches park one side of the road and their passengers cross a 40mph road to the ancient bridge?
KE = ½ m v2
KE = ½ m v2
Bike/rider 86kg at 30mph KE = 8Kj
Car 1500kg at 50mph KE = 375Kj
47 times more energy in death by car
I’m guessing Greg isn’t a member of the Tavistock Mensa society.
As I understand Burt, they
As I understand Burt, they have already tried Hi-Viz
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/dartmoor-ponies-painted-reflective-blue-6562979
[quote=ktache]
As I understand Burt, they have already tried Hi-Viz
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/dartmoor-ponies-painted-reflective-blue-6562979— ktache
Thanks – that led to this gem
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/cows-could-fitted-lights-hi-6131963
And cows with retroreflective
And cows with retroreflective ear tags
But someone just threw a Hi
But someone just threw a Hi Viz waistcoat on that cow, and it doesn’t look impressed.
Don’t post here, send your
Don’t post here, send your comments to the reporter:
lindsay.turpin@tavistock-today.co.uk
@lindsaymturpin