Women’s races to start behind sportive riders at Tour of Cambridgeshire

peted76 wrote:

@Awavey has nailed the issue here. 

I sympathise. I brought a race licence last year for this GranFondo after being in the Sportif pen the year before. 

Those in the sport pen ability wise are very mixed, that first year I did it, I spent half of the ride fearing for my saftey, shouting, pushing and generally shaking my head at the lack of common sense going on. Also I've never seen so many people have accidents on one day. 

The second year, I learned from it and went in the race pen, clearly there was a higher level of 'skill' but it was full of cat4 warriors with road ego's turned up to 11. I saw quite a number of accidents again, but these seemed to be caused by said ego's riding too close and touching wheels etc. I think I ended up in a bad peloton which was about 100 strong it was a bit mental. 

Point being it's fair that if you enter the 'race' you should not have to be mixed with the 'sport' pen. You pay your money and make your choice. NOT you pay your money and your choice is changed at the last minute!

The fact the sport pen may catch you up, frankly should't be the race pens's issue, it's the organisers issue and they should simply start the sport ride later. They are making a fortune from this and should be expected to deliver on what is a very expensive day out. 

This was my first year doing the ToC GF and first ever road race. Everything you've said rings true. I only saw one crash as part of the M35-39 race but there were a lot of near misses in the opening 15 mins. I was dropped due to my own inexperience (the bunch was suddenly up the road and I was last bar 2 riders!). A lot of the issues simply seem like a lack of common sense. It's worrying that these people probably drove a car home! On a note related to the topic at hand I saw a lot of riders dropped in my race and doing no work in our group then vanish with the next fast group to come through. Saw at least a couple of guys do this several times only for us to catch them again.

As for the topic at hand i have sympathy for both the organisers and the women's race. It seems they got loads of grief last year with dropped riders being dragged back up by the fast end of the men's sportive. Probably didn't impact the podium but could have made a difference to the qualifiers. How you deal with that problem without setting off the sportive with a MUCH bigger gap I'm not sure. I assume road closure times simply won't allow much more flexibility for the entire event (front of mens race to back of the sportive). This year doesn't seem to have been the right way to address the problem though.

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

ladies race winner was 3:26 

@dottigirl, there were 600-610 men from the sportive in front of the women's race leader taking into account the 15 minute start, 50 men released 15 minutes AFTER the women racers would  have caught the race leaders and passed them at a critical point. 

The number of men that did roughly the same time in the sportive as the women's race winner was 335, there were 142 race finishers in the ladies race.  

On a mixed day on closed roads when how much time you can have is limited things are never going to be perfect for everyone and the ride organisers made a decison based on the knowledge and feedback they had.

Stop whining about something that in the grand scheme of things is pitifully low, it's not sexist, it's not about an agenda it's about ensuring to their best ability that everyone gets a fair crack and importantly is as safe as can be.

If it's that big a deal organise a women's only race day then it can be structured to how you like it.

The point is the women in the race paid extra for race licenses to compete in a race not a sportive, the men's race got completely clear closed roads,the women's race had roads spread with sportive riders,anyone who has ridden a sportive on closed roads knows its very dangerous to be trying to race through mixed ability sportive riders however fast they claim to be ,as they can be unpredictable and cause crashes,so they didn't remotely get a fair crack at the race they were sold by the organisers who only sprung this change of start on them in the last week

That's the issue.

Awavey wrote:

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

ladies race winner was 3:26 

@dottigirl, there were 600-610 men from the sportive in front of the women's race leader taking into account the 15 minute start, 50 men released 15 minutes AFTER the women racers would  have caught the race leaders and passed them at a critical point. 

The number of men that did roughly the same time in the sportive as the women's race winner was 335, there were 142 race finishers in the ladies race.  

On a mixed day on closed roads when how much time you can have is limited things are never going to be perfect for everyone and the ride organisers made a decison based on the knowledge and feedback they had.

Stop whining about something that in the grand scheme of things is pitifully low, it's not sexist, it's not about an agenda it's about ensuring to their best ability that everyone gets a fair crack and importantly is as safe as can be.

If it's that big a deal organise a women's only race day then it can be structured to how you like it.

The point is the women in the race paid extra for race licenses to compete in a race not a sportive, the men's race got completely clear closed roads,the women's race had roads spread with sportive riders,anyone who has ridden a sportive on closed roads knows its very dangerous to be trying to race through mixed ability sportive riders however fast they claim to be ,as they can be unpredictable and cause crashes,so they didn't remotely get a fair crack at the race they were sold by the organisers who only sprung this change of start on them in the last week That's the issue.

So your saying that because you paid more that trumps health and safety?

BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

 

So your saying that because you paid more that trumps health and safety?

its a far bigger health and safety issue for racing riders to be riding through mixed ability/experience sportive riders however fast theyve claimed to be, and yes I do think if you paid more to the organisers of this event to enter what is advertised as a race as well as the race licence necessary,that their own website still states" elite athletes starting in a Race (UGFWS Race) at the front followed by a Sportive..."

then to find only a week before the event actually your race is going to be totally compromised because youll be started behind those sportive riders, and with no refunds available, thats a big problem, thats not what any of those riders signed upto a year ago.

dottigirl wrote:

How did this pan out then?

Well, as mentioned above, the women's race had to overtake hundreds of men, riding all over the road, who gave them abuse as they passed. Pretty unpleasant.

Apparently, many weren't aware told there would be races starting behind them.

And yes, it sounds like there were many overstating their abilities.

Shitty thing for the organisers to do to women's cycling. Though CTT are currently giving them a run for their money...

Firstly, the riders in front weren't all over the road, only at bends where all the road was used. I and others were drafting in smallish packs maybe 10-15 riders in a line almost on the left side of the road- us Brits follow the rules you know

There was no abuse from riders who werent attempting to muscle in on their race

The men who were dickheads were trying to get into the women's group pack and draft with them, so were fighting to get into still air.  They should of been warned and the DQ from any aspect of the event whether sportive or race.

CXR94Di2 wrote:

dottigirl wrote:

How did this pan out then?

Well, as mentioned above, the women's race had to overtake hundreds of men, riding all over the road, who gave them abuse as they passed. Pretty unpleasant.

Apparently, many weren't aware told there would be races starting behind them.

And yes, it sounds like there were many overstating their abilities.

Shitty thing for the organisers to do to women's cycling. Though CTT are currently giving them a run for their money...

 

Firstly, the riders in front weren't all over the road, only at bends where all the road was used. I and others were drafting in smallish packs maybe 10-15 riders in a line almost on the left side of the road- us Brits follow the rules you know

 

There was no abuse from riders who werent attempting to muscle in on their race

The men who were dickheads were trying to get into the women's group pack and draft with them, so were fighting to get into still air.  They should of been warned and the DQ from any aspect of the event whether sportive or race.

You and your mates may not have been all over the road, but others from the sportive wave were.

And men who were being overtaken by the women gave abuse, including those who were asked to move over.

These reports are from women actually in the 'group pack'. These were their experiences. I'm not sure why you're trying to deny them? You had your experience, the women experienced something different.

I'm not sure what the best solution would have been either, just not this. 

StoopidUserName wrote:

I was in the 21mph+ pen last year and a couple of points. 1. It's a big pen. 2. While there are some fast riders...there are a hell of a bigger percentage who are not, and a reasonable percentage who just wanted to start early. The TOC organisers have no way of knowing how fast the riders who self select for this pen really are and so it gets abused. This is bullshit in other words. Poor show...

I was at the gran fondo world champs 2 years ago and the women's 35 - 40 group got caught by the 60 yr old mens group 40k into the race. The 60 yr old men started 5 min behind. A crash resulted as 250 riders met on the road. Fact is the women are about the same speed as the 60 yr old men, so for all sorts of logistic reasons it makes sense to start them at a point where they won't be caught by other groups, or catch up to other groups. The other option is to start them separate from the 60 yr old men, but you can't tell which is going to be faster than the other (The men will generally be faster on the flat, the women generally faster on the hills) so you need another 15 min gap between those 2 groups which adds to the complexity and cost of the event. It is actually really difficult to juggle, and impossible to keep all groups or individuals happy

madcarew wrote:

StoopidUserName wrote:

I was in the 21mph+ pen last year and a couple of points. 1. It's a big pen. 2. While there are some fast riders...there are a hell of a bigger percentage who are not, and a reasonable percentage who just wanted to start early. The TOC organisers have no way of knowing how fast the riders who self select for this pen really are and so it gets abused. This is bullshit in other words. Poor show...

I was at the gran fondo world champs 2 years ago and the women's 35 - 40 group got caught by the 60 yr old mens group 40k into the race. The 60 yr old men started 5 min behind. A crash resulted as 250 riders met on the road. Fact is the women are about the same speed as the 60 yr old men, so for all sorts of logistic reasons it makes sense to start them at a point where they won't be caught by other groups, or catch up to other groups. The other option is to start them separate from the 60 yr old men, but you can't tell which is going to be faster than the other (The men will generally be faster on the flat, the women generally faster on the hills) so you need another 15 min gap between those 2 groups which adds to the complexity and cost of the event. It is actually really difficult to juggle, and impossible to keep all groups or individuals happy

'Fact is the women are about the same speed as the 60 yr old men' ...Well there's a sweeping, sexist and incorrect statement if ever I read one @madcarew

I am a woman - I dropped out of the race pen and into the 21mph+ on the day because I actually wanted to race at the pace I'm able to race at, which incidently was a lot faster than the majority of men there yesteday.  I averaged 39.3 kph and came 6th overall in the women and 3rd in my age group but I didn't get on the podium because I had dropped out of the women's 'race pen'. I was a good 12 minutes faster than the first woman on the podium.  Looking at the overall numbers I think I was actually faster than 85% of the men so why should I race with 60 year old men and behind everyone else?  It's just insulting and it makes an horrendous statement about the sport's attitude towards amateur women's cycling which is really sad and disappointing.  I'm not a feminist (I don't even like feminists) but I do want to be treated equally and this feels worse than some of the incredibly sexist things that used to happen in the old days of golf! And you sir are incredibly ignorant to be making statements like that.  

The second point to make is that anyone who has done the Tour of Cambridgeshire knows that a large proportion of people lie about their ability and place themselves in pens they probably shouldn't be in and get carried along or passed by faster groups. So few women do the event and even fewer put themselves forward for the race pen - why then are women singled out in this way and branded a safety concern?  The fact that Rowland Sommerlin then tries to say there's a 'fairness' aspect in relation to riding in a peloton is just ridiculous and insulting to everyone's intelligence - what a pathetic response to a ridiculous decision. 

shieldzy wrote:

madcarew wrote:

StoopidUserName wrote:

I was in the 21mph+ pen last year and a couple of points. 1. It's a big pen. 2. While there are some fast riders...there are a hell of a bigger percentage who are not, and a reasonable percentage who just wanted to start early. The TOC organisers have no way of knowing how fast the riders who self select for this pen really are and so it gets abused. This is bullshit in other words. Poor show...

I was at the gran fondo world champs 2 years ago and the women's 35 - 40 group got caught by the 60 yr old mens group 40k into the race. The 60 yr old men started 5 min behind. A crash resulted as 250 riders met on the road. Fact is the women are about the same speed as the 60 yr old men, so for all sorts of logistic reasons it makes sense to start them at a point where they won't be caught by other groups, or catch up to other groups. The other option is to start them separate from the 60 yr old men, but you can't tell which is going to be faster than the other (The men will generally be faster on the flat, the women generally faster on the hills) so you need another 15 min gap between those 2 groups which adds to the complexity and cost of the event. It is actually really difficult to juggle, and impossible to keep all groups or individuals happy

'Fact is the women are about the same speed as the 60 yr old men' ...Well there's a sweeping, sexist and incorrect statement if ever I read one @madcarew

I am a woman - I dropped out of the race pen and into the 21mph+ on the day because I actually wanted to race at the pace I'm able to race at, which incidently was a lot faster than the majority of men there yesteday.  I averaged 39.3 kph and came 6th overall in the women and 3rd in my age group but I didn't get on the podium because I had dropped out of the women's 'race pen'. I was a good 12 minutes faster than the first woman on the podium.  Looking at the overall numbers I think I was actually faster than 85% of the men so why should I race with 60 year old men and behind everyone else?  It's just insulting and it makes an horrendous statement about the sport's attitude towards amateur women's cycling which is really sad and disappointing.  I'm not a feminist (I don't even like feminists) but I do want to be treated equally and this feels worse than some of the incredibly sexist things that used to happen in the old days of golf! And you sir are incredibly ignorant to be making statements like that.  

The second point to make is that anyone who has done the Tour of Cambridgeshire knows that a large proportion of people lie about their ability and place themselves in pens they probably shouldn't be in and get carried along or passed by faster groups. So few women do the event and even fewer put themselves forward for the race pen - why then are women singled out in this way and branded a safety concern?  The fact that Rowland Sommerlin then tries to say there's a 'fairness' aspect in relation to riding in a peloton is just ridiculous and insulting to everyone's intelligence - what a pathetic response to a ridiculous decision. 

 

 

Good gods, how did this person who actually knows something about which they speak get in here? Remove her immediately so we can have more idiotic commentary

John Smith wrote:

Every day sexism? How is it fair that faster sportive riders being held up by slower racers? It’s being split by speed. Having a race license doesn’t give you special privileges. I’m not convinced they should run at the same time, as it reenforces the idea that sportives are races, but if they are it seems reasonable to order by speed, no matter what the gender or licence status.

Hmm...time for qualifying sportives I think? 

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

There's no fucking agenda it's just biology. When will this madness end. Hopefully a load of trans women will enter the women's race and piss all over them.

Muppet

StoopidUserName wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

There's no fucking agenda it's just biology. When will this madness end. Hopefully a load of trans women will enter the women's race and piss all over them.

Muppet

Nice guy time

Tell me how I'm wrong about men being better than women in physical activities or sport?

Sorry if women's feeling are hurt that 60 year old men may still be faster than young women but that's reality. Remember when Serena Williams got easily beaten the 203rd ranked guy?

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

StoopidUserName wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

There's no fucking agenda it's just biology. When will this madness end. Hopefully a load of trans women will enter the women's race and piss all over them.

Muppet

Nice guy time

 

Tell me how I'm wrong about men being better than women in physical activities or sport?

Sorry if women's feeling are hurt that 60 year old men may still be faster than young women but that's reality. Remember when Serena Williams got easily beaten the 203rd ranked guy?

 

 

Ok thank you for putting a more reasoned comment.

I've already put my answer above that many in the 21+ group aren't capable of that speed or at least not capable of catching the women. Some will and fair enough, either way there'll be a problem with the groups getting mixed. This way ensures that people get a bit more peed off and starts everything off on a bad foot. I don't recall any complaints from last year on this?

We'll find out how it goes tomorrow anyhow. This could be been worked out and talked about months ago if there really was a problem...why leave it all so late?

StoopidUserName wrote:

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

There's no fucking agenda it's just biology. When will this madness end. Hopefully a load of trans women will enter the women's race and piss all over them.

Muppet

How refreshing to see such a well reasoned argument.